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Kc61
07-31-2008, 09:05 PM
Batting order -- My guess is Hairston and Kepp are at one and two. So a lefty bat is third. My guess is Dunn. Phillips four, Votto five, EE six, Bruce 7. Team is less left handed. Dusty rotates lefties and righties as much as possible.

Outfield defense -- I think this is where Walt will be paying attention. Can an outfield of Dunn, Hairston (and committee, Dickerson, whomever), and Bruce cover the outfield effectively enough.

Other positions -- If Walt is happy enough with this outfield, he can try to re-sign Dunn and get partners for Hairston in center. He might try to upgrade the left side of the infield, but EE is hitting and some combo of Kepp and Gonzo at shortstop is probably adequate for next year. The catching position becomes a major off-season focus.

Pitching -- Has nothing to do with Griffey, but another top notch starter would be nice for next year. Harang, Top Notch Starter, Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto . Now you're talking.

Far East
07-31-2008, 09:25 PM
Pitching -- Has nothing to do with Griffey, but another top notch starter would be nice for next year. Harang, Top Notch Starter, Arroyo, Volquez, Cueto . Now you're talking.
Between now and then, Bailey might become the best 4th/5th starter in the league.

GAC
07-31-2008, 10:22 PM
If Walt is happy enough with this outfield

My Gawd he better not be IMO.

I'm not going to get into the pluses of having Jr out of the OF (defense), and the #3 hole (offense). Been there, done that. But if Walt and Castellini don't realize the utter important of finding a solid, dependable, and producing OFer in the off-season, and feel "comfortable" with some sort of a platoon situation with Hairston/Freel/whoever in the OF, then I shake my head in complete bewilderment.

Freel and Hairston can rotate from the OF to the DL. ;)

Break the mold FO! Get aggressive if you're really serious about turning this thing around quickly. It doesn't mean you have to start spending like the Yankees or Boston; but if we can spend 46 mil on a closer, then you need to carry that further and pinpoint players and GO AFTER THEM.

If you have an answer in the farm system, like we did with Bruce, then fine. But we don't when it comes to the OF. I haven't heard many good thinks about Dickerson. The only other name I've heard mentioned is Cumberland. But we're still looking 1-2 years away if any.

I can remember several years ago when this FO emphasized forking out millions on their position players and went on the cheap with pitchers (retreads, etc).

Now we're going to flip the cart around? We've spent millions on guys like Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero..... and now we're debating whether we can AFFORD to resign a Dunn, and are looking at platooning a Hairston, Freel, or whoever in the OF?

Where else are we gonna "compromise" or try to get by?

I'm not against saving money and goiing on the cheap in certain situations. We've got several young ballplayers under our control for a few years like that - Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Keppinger, Encarnacion, and maybe some others.

You sign guys like Freel and Hairston on the cheap and to be bench/role players. Not throw money at them, and try to "get by" (or experiment) at making them everyday players.

Last year it was posted on here where we spent/spread around somewhere around 22 mil on peripheral "fluff" and marginal players, and that it was a waste of revenues.

Now, at the end of this season, this FO is presented with a golden opportunity IMO to let a lot of those players/contracts walk and get them off the books.

I hope Walt (and Bob) take advantage of that situation and capitalize on it. Not continue the same.

corkedbat
07-31-2008, 10:34 PM
My Gawd he better not be IMO.

I'm not going to get into the pluses of having Jr out of the OF (defense), and the #3 hole (offense). Been there, done that. But if Walt and Castellini don't realize the utter important of finding a solid, dependable, and producing OFer in the off-season, and feel "comfortable" with some sort of a platoon situation with Hairston/Freel/whoever in the OF, then I shake my head in complete bewilderment.

Freel and Hairston can rotate from the OF to the DL. ;)

Break the mold FO! Get aggressive if you're really serious about turning this thing around quickly. It doesn't mean you have to start spending like the Yankees or Boston; but if we can spend 46 mil on a closer, then you need to carry that further and pinpoint players and GO AFTER THEM.

If you have an answer in the farm system, like we did with Bruce, then fine. But we don't when it comes to the OF. I haven't heard many good thinks about Dickerson. The only other name I've heard mentioned is Cumberland. But we're still looking 1-2 years away if any.

I can remember several years ago when this FO emphasized forking out millions on their position players and went on the cheap with pitchers (retreads, etc).

Now we're going to flip the cart around? We've spent millions on guys like Harang, Arroyo, and Cordero..... and now we're debating whether we can AFFORD to resign a Dunn, and are looking at platooning a Hairston, Freel, or wheover in the OF?

Where else are we gonna "compromise" or try to get by?

I'm not against saving money and goiing on the cheap in certain situations. We've got several young ballplayers under our control for a few years like that - Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Volquez, Keppinger, Encarnacion, and maybe some others.

You sign guys like Freel and Hairston on the cheap and to be bench/role players. Not throw money at them, and try to "get by" (or experiment) at making them everyday players.

Last year it was posted on here where we spent/spred around somewhere around 22 mil on peripheral "fluff" and marginal players, and that it was a waste of revenues.

Now, at the end of this season, this FO is presented with a golden opportunity IMO to let a lot of those players/contracts walk and get them off the books.

I hope Walt (and Bob) take advantage of that situation and capitalize on it. Not continue the same.

I agree GAC, but the problem is coming up with a quality OF. A CFleadoff guy would be ideal and a we could certainly go with bruce in CF if they acquire a stud RF, but where are they coming from?

There doesn't seem to be much help on the FA horizon and the parts that can be dealt for a decent return are limited. I guess there is Arroyo and/or maybe Bailey, you could deal Votto if Dunn would move to 1B, but then you'd need tow OFs. The answer might be dealing EdE and play Keppinger/Hairston/Richar @ 3B until Fr4azier is ready, but personaly I'd liketo see them hold on to Edwin.

Something tells me today was just the first in a long line of moves to come in the 7 months or so until next Spring Training. I have a feeling that this may be one of the more interesting offseasons in quite some time (not saying it's going to be fun though - especially if Dunn walks).

joshnky
07-31-2008, 10:41 PM
Batting order -- My guess is Hairston and Kepp are at one and two. So a lefty bat is third. My guess is Dunn. Phillips four, Votto five, EE six, Bruce 7. Team is less left handed. Dusty rotates lefties and righties as much as possible.

My guess is he bats Bruce third and leaves Dunn fifth. I didn't look it up by I can't remember a single game where Dusty put Dunn third.

Highlifeman21
07-31-2008, 11:33 PM
The Dusty just doesn't know how to write Dunn's name in the 3rd spot in the lineup.

It wouldn't surprise me if for the next week, The Dusty still wrote "Griffey" in the 3rd spot out of habit.

Raisor
07-31-2008, 11:42 PM
My guess is he bats Bruce third and leaves Dunn fifth. I didn't look it up by I can't remember a single game where Dusty put Dunn third.

7-29-08

KronoRed
07-31-2008, 11:46 PM
I'm betting Phillips goes to the 3 spot for more time then Dunn, after all he steals bases.

Raisor
07-31-2008, 11:53 PM
I'm betting Phillips goes to the 3 spot for more time then Dunn, after all he steals bases.

I'd probably go:

Hairston
Bruce
Dunn
Eddie
Phillips
Votto
Kepp
Catcher

I know Bruce has been slumping, but I love my rookies hitting 2nd. It's my own little Dustyisim.

KronoRed
07-31-2008, 11:58 PM
Your ShortStop is 8th. The lineup card is premarked with him in the 2 spot.

SteelSD
08-01-2008, 12:12 AM
Between now and then, Bailey might become the best 4th/5th starter in the league.

Yeah, if that league is the Southern League.

WVRedsFan
08-01-2008, 12:18 AM
My Gawd he better not be IMO.

I'm not going to get into the pluses of having Jr out of the OF (defense), and the #3 hole (offense). Been there, done that. But if Walt and Castellini don't realize the utter important of finding a solid, dependable, and producing OFer in the off-season, and feel "comfortable" with some sort of a platoon situation with Hairston/Freel/whoever in the OF, then I shake my head in complete bewilderment.

Freel and Hairston can rotate from the OF to the DL. ;)

Break the mold FO! Get aggressive if you're really serious about turning this thing around quickly. It doesn't mean you have to start spending like the Yankees or Boston; but if we can spend 46 mil on a closer, then you need to carry that further and pinpoint players and GO AFTER THEM.

If you have an answer in the farm system, like we did with Bruce, then fine. But we don't when it comes to the OF. I haven't heard many good thinks about Dickerson. The only other name I've heard mentioned is Cumberland. But we're still looking 1-2 years away if any.

My thought exactly. Dickerson is NOT the answer in CF. Neither is anyone else in the system at present. It's surely not Freel or Hairston. It has to come from outside in the form of an established MLB CF. Where do they come from. It's funny that Houston or Chicago or St.Louis or anyone who needs one gets one while we cry about money while giving a closer $50 million. Good grief.

MartyFan
08-01-2008, 12:25 AM
I agree GAC, but the problem is coming up with a quality OF. A CFleadoff guy would be ideal and a we could certainly go with bruce in CF if they acquire a stud RF, but where are they coming from?

There doesn't seem to be much help on the FA horizon and the parts that can be dealt for a decent return are limited. I guess there is Arroyo and/or maybe Bailey, you could deal Votto if Dunn would move to 1B, but then you'd need tow OFs. The answer might be dealing EdE and play Keppinger/Hairston/Richar @ 3B until Fr4azier is ready, but personaly I'd liketo see them hold on to Edwin.

Something tells me today was just the first in a long line of moves to come in the 7 months or so until next Spring Training. I have a feeling that this may be one of the more interesting offseasons in quite some time (not saying it's going to be fun though - especially if Dunn walks).

Meanwhile Kenny Lofton sits at home...I would have loved to have seen him on this team instead of Patterson.

LvJ
08-01-2008, 12:31 AM
Patterson
Keppinger
Patterson
Phillips
Votto
Pitcher
Dunn
EE
Bruce


?? profit

WVRedsFan
08-01-2008, 12:37 AM
Patterson
Keppinger
Patterson
Phillips
Votto
Pitcher
Dunn
EE
Bruce


?? profit

Now you've gone too far. Letting Corey bat twice is just too much. Are you Dusty Baker? :)

red-in-la
08-01-2008, 12:53 AM
I am actually beginning to change my mind about Dunn....post JR. As many of you have argued, he is 28.....and might be, might be, becoming the David Ortiz of the NL. He has been hot right now and so it is easy to change ones mind, but he does seem to be a bit more focused since the All-Star break.....maybe all of the "Dunn isn't worth a trade offer" has him and his agent worried......maybe his agent told him he needs to play for that LTC.

Anyway, if you sign Dunn LT without recreating the mess that the JR contract did, then it might not be a bad idea.

But post JR still comes with the intense need for a Ben Sheets type FA signing and some bullpen arms.

I still don't have a problem with a platoon of Ross and whoever......Bako is a bit weak at the bat for sure.

If you could pick up a CF that would be OK, I am not against forcing Hairston and Keppinger or Gonzo into bench roles.....it is nice to have a bench of guys who should be starting.

That would be my post JR moves.......

But WJ, please oh please don't saddle this franchise with another JR-esque contract unless it is a future multi-Cy Young award winner.

LvJ
08-01-2008, 01:17 AM
Now you've gone too far. Letting Corey bat twice is just too much. Are you Dusty Baker? :) Yes.

Yes I am.

KronoRed
08-01-2008, 01:40 AM
Yes.

Yes I am.

Ban him...NOW! :cool:

jmcclain19
08-01-2008, 06:01 AM
Just think how awesome the OF will be next year when they don't re-sign Dunn.

Bruce in CF flanked by some combo of Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper, Jerry Hairston and scrub Free Agent pick up (Juan Encarnacion/Jacque Jones anyone?).

The scrappiness will be off the charts. Unfortunately, so will the losses.

Raisor
08-01-2008, 10:38 AM
I am actually beginning to change my mind about Dunn....post JR. As many of you have argued, he is 28.....and might be, might be, becoming the David Ortiz of the NL. He has been hot right now and so it is easy to change ones mind, but he does seem to be a bit more focused since the All-Star break.....maybe all of the "Dunn isn't worth a trade offer" has him and his agent worried......maybe his agent told him he needs to play for that LTC.

.

Why would you want him when, in your own words, he was mediocre up until July?

Chip R
08-01-2008, 10:39 AM
Freel and Hairston can rotate from the OF to the DL. ;)


Hee. My thoughts exactly. Seriously, it may not be the worst idea in the world.

flyer85
08-01-2008, 10:50 AM
Between now and then, Bailey might become the best 4th/5th starter in the league.the International League?

redsmetz
08-01-2008, 11:20 AM
Outfield defense -- I think this is where Walt will be paying attention. Can an outfield of Dunn, Hairston (and committee, Dickerson, whomever), and Bruce cover the outfield effectively enough.


I was talking with another guy here in the office this a.m. and is it incorrect to think that whoever is playing CF the balance of the season now gets to shade a little more to left with Jay Bruce over in RF? That should help a bit with Dunn's coverage (which isn't as attrocious as some suggest). With CF being bookended by Dunn and Griffey, the CF'er always had to be prepared to go either way, now the gap between right and center should be narrowed.

Am I wrong in this thinking?

RedsManRick
08-01-2008, 11:30 AM
I'd really like to see Dickerson get his shot, if only as part of a platoon. I can't help but think he's another Brady Clark. A guy who will be good enough to start for 2-3 years during his peak and a solid 4th OF after that. But that peak could very well be starting now.

Jerry Hairston is a nice little role player, but the regression for which he's due is massive. Let's not waste AB that could be productive for the organization.

Chip R
08-01-2008, 11:35 AM
I'd really like to see Dickerson get his shot, if only as part of a platoon. I can't help but think he's another Brady Clark. A guy who will be good enough to start for 2-3 years during his peak and a solid 4th OF after that. But that peak could very well be starting now.

Jerry Hairston is a nice little role player, but the regression for which he's due is massive. Let's not waste AB that could be productive for the organization.


I could see Dickerson get a September callup. IIRC, Dusty had some nice things to say about him in ST. Now how much playing time he gets is another story.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2008, 11:43 AM
Just treat Freel and Hairston as one guy (since they will probably never be healthy at the same time).

Jerry Freel or Ryan Hairston (whichever you prefer - I like Jerry Freel) will just be the most expensive 33-year old bench-warmer in baseball.

princeton
08-01-2008, 11:44 AM
I was talking with another guy here in the office this a.m. and is it incorrect to think that whoever is playing CF the balance of the season now gets to shade a little more to left with Jay Bruce over in RF? That should help a bit with Dunn's coverage (which isn't as attrocious as some suggest). With CF being bookended by Dunn and Griffey, the CF'er always had to be prepared to go either way, now the gap between right and center should be narrowed.

Am I wrong in this thinking?

personally, I think that this isn't the right way to think about it.

the CFer should be in the place where the batter is likely to hit the most balls, regardless of who's in LF. You want the CF to steal as many outs as possible.

even the most rangy of CFers won't get to nearly all balls that a slow LF should, but can't, reach. there's just too much gap. but you want to have a CFer that can turn a few hits into outs, in hopes that this can balance the outs that your poor LFer plays into hits.

Jpup
08-01-2008, 11:53 AM
I think the Reds need to sign Bobby Abreu for right field in 2009 to go along with Dunn and Bruce. Edwin @ 3rd, Phillips @ SS, Kepp @ 2nd, Votto @ 1st and go get a decent catcher to go along with David Ross. You add another starter and the Reds win the pennant if things go right.

Keppinger 2b
Bruce cf
Dunn lf
Phillips SS
Abreu rf
Edwin 3b
Votto 1b
Ross c

Kc61
08-01-2008, 12:04 PM
There are two hot spots on the Reds' offense right now. Centerfield and catcher.

Remember my thread, the Reds Need More Hits? Look at the stats, it is as clear as day that this team needs better BA hitters, more singles and doubles guys. They get walks, they hit homers, the deficiency is in the number of hits.

Take Hairston out of the equation and the Reds team BA might be the worst in the league, or next to worst. Even now it is 14th.

For a number of reasons I won't belabor, I think Hairston as a platoon centerfielder (and backup shortstop) would continue to hit for this team. What is desparately needed is a hitting partner for him in centerfield who can lead off and hit for average. This, and a good defensive lead catcher who can hit .260 for 100 to 120 games.

These are the main offensive needs right now, assuming Dunn continues as a Red.

Unfortunately, Dickerson does not seem to be that type of hitter. I wouldn't mind him as a fifth guy, a speed defense guy for the outfield, but as a partner for Hairston in center I don't really see it fitting this team's needs.

For those BA haters, just look at the numbers. Patterson and Bako must be replaced with high BA guys, not .240 hitters. These two hitters have 437 at bats for the Reds, low BAs, and little else offensively. Ross and Dunn also have low BAs but you can make a case that each contributes otherwise (Dunn obviously with power and walks, Ross high OBP).

Post-Griffey the Reds need a higher BA hitters and centerfield and catcher are the obvious open spots.

P.S. -- An alternative is to keep Bruce in center and put the high BA guy in right. No problem with that.

Raisor
08-01-2008, 12:09 PM
There are two hot spots on the Reds' offense right now. Centerfield and catcher.

Remember my thread, the Reds Need More Hits? Look at the stats, it is as clear as day that this team needs better BA hitters, more singles and doubles guys. They get walks, they hit homers, the deficiency is in the number of hits.

Take Hairston out of the equation and the Reds team BA might be the worst in the league, or next to worst. Even now it is 14th.

.

EDIT-I haven't had my coffee yet, and can't read a simple chart.

Ltlabner
08-01-2008, 12:15 PM
If they want to turn this offense around, they need to find a way to turn the 20% of plate appearances that are below the skill level of a blind, mentally retarded and paralized pole cat (with the mange) into at least average production. That alone will bost the teams production in incalcuable ways.

I don't care if the increase in production comes from BA, OBP or SLG driven production.

Of coruse that will come from replacing CPat (CF) and Paul Bako (C) which are positions that have been ID for some time. My point is, the means of production is compeltley irrlevant. That you increase the production from "wretched" to "mearly mundane" is critical to turning this ship around.

Giving Dusty some pointers on not burying your productive guys at the back of the line-up and giving away hundreds of plate appearances to the special brand of dreadfull that is CPatt in lead off might not hurt either.

Kc61
08-01-2008, 12:15 PM
Let me ask you this, what do you think is going on with the Braves? 60 more hits then the Reds, 20 points higher of BA and OBP. 8 more runs.

Actually, the Braves help my argument.

The Braves have 23 fewer home runs than the Reds. Yet the Braves have more runs scored and a higher OPS (.756 to .732). They compensate for the lack of homers with a different kind of offense.

If I were a Braves fan, I would complain about the lack of power. To become a top echelon offense they need more homers.

That's not the Reds problem. They need more high BA hitters.

And for those who don't care about the way to improve the offense, a well-balanced offense is the best way. Just look at the numbers, the Reds deficiency is obvious.

And by the way, the Reds offensive problems shouldn't be that hard to fix.

They have five major at bat players who hit below .250. Dunn, Griffey, Ross, Patterson and Bako. Simply convert three of them to reasonably high BA hitters and you will have a fairly balanced offense. Just get the right replacements for three of these guys. (Obviously, Dunn brings other things and I'm not advocating dumping him.)

Having the 14th highest BA in a 16 team league needs fixing.

Then add a major starting pitcher.

joshnky
08-01-2008, 01:31 PM
7-29-08

You can tell how closely I've followed the team lately. I looked it up and Dunn has 9 ABs this year batting third. The only spots he's been in fewer are 1, 8, and 9. Maybe Dusty will wise up and bat him higher in the lineup but I'm betting on Bruce third and Dunn fifth.

Nugget
08-01-2008, 05:22 PM
The Dusty just doesn't know how to write Dunn's name in the 3rd spot in the lineup.

It wouldn't surprise me if for the next week, The Dusty still wrote "Griffey" in the 3rd spot out of habit.

Mustn't have been Dusty writing the lineup card on Tuesday then.

Degenerate39
08-01-2008, 05:52 PM
From John Fay:

Lineup for Reds at Nationals, 7:35 p.m.

Jerry Hairston Jr. cf

Jeff Keppinger ss

Jay Bruce rf

Brandon Phillips 2b

Adam Dunn lf

Edwin Encarnacion 3b

Andy Phillips 1b

David Ross c

Homer Bailey p

RedsManRick
08-01-2008, 05:55 PM
From John Fay:

Lineup for Reds at Nationals, 7:35 p.m.

Jerry Hairston Jr. cf
Jeff Keppinger ss
Jay Bruce rf
Brandon Phillips 2b
Adam Dunn lf
Edwin Encarnacion 3b
Andy Phillips 1b
David Ross c
Homer Bailey p

I love it. Votto is getting extended periods of rest because he cooled off while Bruce gets star treatment, Dunn and EE still can't get in to the top half of the lineup, and Dave Ross bats 8th because he's the catcher.

Even if you insist on the top 2 and Phillips over Votto, is it really that hard to figure out Dusty?

Hairston
Keppinger
Dunn
EE
Phillips
Bruce
Ross
Phillips

Hate is a strong word, but suffice it to say that our manager makes me embarrassed to be a Reds fan.

flyer85
08-01-2008, 05:55 PM
now that Jr is gone this is clearly not the team or roster for Baker. Dusty needs a veteran plug and play lineup to play to his strengths. I think the biggest post Griffey issue is will Dusty be around to manage the 2009 Reds?

BRM
08-01-2008, 05:55 PM
I love it. Votto is getting extended periods of rest because he cooled off while Bruce gets start treatment, Dunn and EE still can't get in to the top half of the lineup, and Dave Ross bats 8th because he's the catcher.

Surprised?

Ltlabner
08-01-2008, 05:56 PM
I love it. Votto is getting extended periods of rest because he cooled off while Bruce gets start treatment, Dunn and EE still can't get in to the top half of the lineup, and Dave Ross bats 8th because he's the catcher.

But all that talk about Dusty's horrable use of offensive weapons is just overblown internet myth right?

BRM
08-01-2008, 05:59 PM
OBP's in July:

Kepp .238
Bruce .282

These two need to turn it on soon if they are going to be the 2-3 hitters.

Spring~Fields
08-01-2008, 06:01 PM
I love it. Votto is getting extended periods of rest because he cooled off while Bruce gets start treatment, Dunn and EE still can't get in to the top half of the lineup, and Dave Ross bats 8th because he's the catcher.

Even if you insist on the top 2 and Phillips over Votto, is it really that hard to figure out Dusty?

Hairston
Keppinger
Dunn
EE
Phillips
Bruce
Ross
Phillips

Hate is a strong word, but suffice it to say that our manager makes me embarrassed to be a Reds fan.

Whatever can you mean ? :) :devil:

Strikes Out Looking
08-01-2008, 06:05 PM
I have a gut feeling that without Griffey around, the Reds will actually pull off a hot streak and score a bunch of runs. It may not be logical to some people, but I think that may be the effect.

Spring~Fields
08-01-2008, 06:08 PM
I have a gut feeling that without Griffey around, the Reds will actually pull off a hot streak and score a bunch of runs. It may not be logical to some people, but I think that may be the effect.

I think that you could be right, this team in the past did have spurts of good play for whatever reason when KGJ was on the DL in the past, so they might play well for awhile now.

flyer85
08-01-2008, 08:20 PM
OBP's in July:

Kepp .238
Bruce .282

These two need to turn it on soon if they are going to be the 2-3 hitters.it's what happens when you don't draw any walks