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improbus
08-01-2008, 09:02 AM
Anyone watching Team USA. It is an interesting bunch. They have no post presence at all. Dwight Howard looks lost and Boozer doesn't play much. Instead, they run the fast break relentlessly.

Defensively, they dare the team to bring the ball up the floor with Paul, LeBron, and Kobe hounding their guards. But, when the other team gets in their half-court set, they usually get a decent look.

This team is very good but very beatable. If they run into a team with a solid PG who can bring the ball up the floor and the team can move the ball around, they could be in trouble.

Roy Tucker
08-01-2008, 09:30 AM
The good international teams will choke off that fast break and clog up the middle on the US. Eventually, it will come down to how well they shoot the 3 to unclog the middle. Their downfall in previous years is that they couldn't do that.

Defensively, they have potential but aren't there yet. Good individually, but not good team defense. They need to come together fast. They've gotten pick and rolled to death in the past.

15fan
08-01-2008, 09:55 AM
They have no post presence at all.

The hallmark of a K team.

It's too bad that Chris Paul made the team. I really wanted to actively root against the 2008 K squad.

improbus
08-01-2008, 10:00 AM
I really wanted to actively root against the 2008 K squad.

Why?

IslandRed
08-01-2008, 10:31 AM
I don't care much for Coach K, but I thought it was a smart move to get a college coach. The international game's rules and prevailing style of play are much closer to college ball than the NBA game. I also thought the roster construction was more intelligently tailored to the international game this time, rather than just taking a generic NBA squad. Like you guys said, though, the key will be team defense. These guys will score but they have to shut down other teams better than recent USA teams have done.

GoReds33
08-01-2008, 11:20 AM
I have faith in this team. We're to the point where we seem to have a family of players again. Four years ago, it seemed as if we just had some players who didn't care. They didn't care about winning, or care about this country. I'm happy to see the team's pride in the USA restored.

15fan
08-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Why?

Have to set a good impression for my soon-to-be 5 year old.

Root against all things Duke, Michigan, and North Carolina.

Always.

I'm hoping K's back goes out on him in Beijing like it did during the 94-95 college season. Then I'll be able to root for the 'Mericans with a clean conscience.

NJReds
08-01-2008, 02:58 PM
They don't have a huge post presence, but they are extremely long, quick and athletic. It's very difficult to bring the ball up against this team and they they do a good job cutting off the passing lanes.

improbus
08-01-2008, 03:26 PM
Have to set a good impression for my soon-to-be 5 year old.

Root against all things Duke, Michigan, and North Carolina.

Always.

I'm hoping K's back goes out on him in Beijing like it did during the 94-95 college season. Then I'll be able to root for the 'Mericans with a clean conscience.

But...this team has nothing to do with Duke. Sad...

gm
08-01-2008, 07:17 PM
Blazer coach Nate McMillian is on K's staff...so I have to root for the corporation

But when they play Spain and Rudy Fernandez...I want to see the next Blazer SG go off on K*be

improbus
08-01-2008, 08:20 PM
Why the hate against team USA?

improbus
08-01-2008, 09:18 PM
I don't care much for Coach K, but I thought it was a smart move to get a college coach. The international game's rules and prevailing style of play are much closer to college ball than the NBA game. I also thought the roster construction was more intelligently tailored to the international game this time, rather than just taking a generic NBA squad. Like you guys said, though, the key will be team defense. These guys will score but they have to shut down other teams better than recent USA teams have done.

If you watch closely, you can really see Coach K's handy work. They play alot like a Duke team. They play relentless man to man ball pressure with a shot blocker at the rim. In a way, they dare the other team to try and bring the ball up the court. Offensively, they run the break, drive to the basket, or shoot 3's. There is very little post play.

What I really want to see is Kobe and LeBron square off to see who can be the world's greatest player. I want to see LeBron play D with the intensity that Kobe has been showing. I want to see Kobe start to look for the types of passes that make LeBron special. I really hope that there is a "friendly" competition between these two.

MasonBuzz3
08-02-2008, 01:40 AM
What I really want to see is Kobe and LeBron square off to see who can be the world's greatest player. I want to see LeBron play D with the intensity that Kobe has been showing. I want to see Kobe start to look for the types of passes that make LeBron special. I really hope that there is a "friendly" competition between these two.
This is Lebron's team...he is the best player in the world, but I am biased I know. Lebron promised a gold and I don't doubt him, at least Coach K will play Lebron at these Olympics unlike L.Brown last time.

Michael Young
08-02-2008, 08:40 AM
Have to set a good impression for my soon-to-be 5 year old.

Root against all things Duke, Michigan, and North Carolina.

Always.

I'm hoping K's back goes out on him in Beijing like it did during the 94-95 college season. Then I'll be able to root for the 'Mericans with a clean conscience.

That's pathetic. No offense, but what you're doing is setting a horrible example for any child.

We're talking about the National Team for the United States here. Think about it.

Michael Young
08-02-2008, 08:41 AM
The good international teams will choke off that fast break and clog up the middle on the US. Eventually, it will come down to how well they shoot the 3 to unclog the middle. Their downfall in previous years is that they couldn't do that.

Defensively, they have potential but aren't there yet. Good individually, but not good team defense. They need to come together fast. They've gotten pick and rolled to death in the past.

Two words: Michael Redd.

improbus
08-02-2008, 09:06 AM
This is Lebron's team...he is the best player in the world, but I am biased I know. Lebron promised a gold and I don't doubt him, at least Coach K will play Lebron at these Olympics unlike L.Brown last time.

LeBron can do some things that Kobe will never be able to do because of his size and strength, but I hope he learns from Kobe. LeBron should have a dominant post-up game, but he doesn't really ever bother. LeBron should be a top 5 man defender, but he isn't. I really hope that Kobe's intensity and more well rounded game rub off on LeBron.

Michael Young
08-02-2008, 09:07 AM
It's too bad LBJ didn't get to spend more time on the court with MJ.

Hoosier Red
08-02-2008, 09:29 AM
That's pathetic. No offense, but what you're doing is setting a horrible example for any child.

We're talking about the National Team for the United States here. Think about it.

Lighten up Francis. Seriously, it's a game. I'm pretty sure the terrorists don't win if the US loses to Spain.

Michael Young
08-02-2008, 09:36 AM
Lighten up Francis. Seriously, it's a game. I'm pretty sure the terrorists don't win if the US loses to Spain.

Funny, that's exactly what I would say to someone who would root against the USA based upon whomever happened to be coaching them in the Olympics.

TeamSelig
08-02-2008, 02:09 PM
No one is stopping us this year.

MaineRed
08-02-2008, 05:42 PM
Us? When did you join the squad?

I hope they lose. Kobe and Lebron with egg on their face would be priceless.

guttle11
08-02-2008, 05:55 PM
Us? When did you join the squad?

I hope they lose. Kobe and Lebron with egg on their face would be priceless.

Typical drivel from you.

I don't really like what I've seen from the exhibitions. More dunking, trying to put on a show. They won't win the gold playing that way. They probably won't medal period.

I'd rather have seen downright boring games. Run plenty of motion and work on a good zone D. Instead we've largely seen gambling D and a run to dunk the ball.

TeamSelig
08-02-2008, 10:37 PM
I live in the states so they are representing me in the olympics. Whats with people WANTING team USA to lose? Go burn your flags in another thread, I don't think this thread was created to insult the country because of their coach or two players on their team.

guttle,

I'm not sure, but maybe you are just catching the highlights? There have been some dunks, but mainly on fast breaks. When I've watched, I haven't the feeling they are just showing off. More like, they are playing against third graders. I don't see them missing out on any medals with the way Wade has stepped it up. I'm betting he has a HUGE year next season.

guttle11
08-02-2008, 10:41 PM
I live in the states so they are representing me in the olympics. Whats with people WANTING team USA to lose? Go burn your flags in another thread, I don't think this thread was created to insult the country because of their coach or two players on their team.

guttle,

I'm not sure, but maybe you are just catching the highlights? There have been some dunks, but mainly on fast breaks. When I've watched, I haven't the feeling they are just showing off. More like, they are playing against third graders. I don't see them missing out on any medals with the way Wade has stepped it up. I'm betting he has a HUGE year next season.

Nah, I've watched all three games. I don't like what I've seen thus far.

"Playing third graders" may just be the root of the problem, though. Not the best thing for this team, IMO.

MaineRed
08-02-2008, 11:36 PM
I live in the states so they are representing me in the olympics. Whats with people WANTING team USA to lose? Go burn your flags in another thread, I don't think this thread was created to insult the country because of their coach or two players on their team.

Talk about drivel. Nobody is burning any flags and nobody has insulted "the country" in any way. Go over-exaggerate in response to someone who might buy it.

I often cheer for the internationals or Europeans in golfs Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup. Why? I like the players from the other side more than I like the Americans. I could care less if Jim Furyk and Stewart Cink ever win another Ryder Cup and I could care less if Kobe and Lebron win gold medals. I don't need my country to win anything to feel good about it. Being number one in basketball is the least of my concerns. I'd rather see Kobe brick two free throws in the final seconds as Team USA is elimated by the Tuvans or better yet, the Iranians. That would be classic.

Razor Shines
08-03-2008, 01:34 AM
Talk about drivel. Nobody is burning any flags and nobody has insulted "the country" in any way. Go over-exaggerate in response to someone who might buy it.

I often cheer for the internationals or Europeans in golfs Ryder Cup and Presidents Cup. Why? I like the players from the other side more than I like the Americans. I could care less if Jim Furyk and Stewart Cink ever win another Ryder Cup and I could care less if Kobe and Lebron win gold medals. I don't need my country to win anything to feel good about it. Being number one in basketball is the least of my concerns. I'd rather see Kobe brick two free throws in the final seconds as Team USA is elimated by the Tuvans or better yet, the Iranians. That would be classic.

Awwww. Is someone upset that no Celtics are on the team?

improbus
08-03-2008, 09:13 AM
Somehow, I don't see the same people rooting against the USA in rowing or volleyball. Patriotism aside, I find the negative attitude towards American basketball to be short-sighted, uninformed, and petty. If Magic and Bird had the athletic superiority that LeBron and Kobe have, they would do the same thing. Jordan did. Dr. J. did. David Thompson did.

NJReds
08-03-2008, 12:13 PM
I don't see them missing out on any medals with the way Wade has stepped it up. I'm betting he has a HUGE year next season.

He'll be great until Miami is out of the playoff chase and then he'll come up with a "season ending injury" so that Miami can get a top draft pick.

TeamSelig
08-03-2008, 12:43 PM
Awwww. Is someone upset that no Celtics are on the team?

+1

MaineRed
08-03-2008, 01:07 PM
Yeah you guys nailed me. No Celtics. I won't be cheering for Azingers Ryder Cup team either if he isn't smart enough to pick KG and Pierce with his two captains picks.

I guess fans of Lebron enjoy the Olympics more than me. Afterall it is their only chance to see him playing alongside real players.

guttle11
08-03-2008, 04:20 PM
Gotta be honest, I loved the game today. It was exactly what they needed. Russia kept them in the half court and forced them to work for points. They still dominated.

Very good to see.

cincrazy
08-03-2008, 09:06 PM
Have to set a good impression for my soon-to-be 5 year old.

Root against all things Duke, Michigan, and North Carolina.

Always.

I'm hoping K's back goes out on him in Beijing like it did during the 94-95 college season. Then I'll be able to root for the 'Mericans with a clean conscience.

Coach K is a great coach. Period. End of discussion. I'm not a Duke fan by any means, but give the man his due. And asking for his back to go out is a bit much

BuckeyeRed27
08-03-2008, 10:54 PM
This whole thread is crazy. I mean who roots for the USA to lose in the Olympics? I guess we know a few people now.

We are talking about he name on the front of the jersey not the one on the back.

GO USA!

cincy jacket
08-04-2008, 01:12 AM
Any thoughts on the Kidd not playing/benching in the 2nd half? Is it just Coach K giving a veteran some rest or something more. It is very obvious that Williams has been a more effective all around point especially in splitting the middle of the zone and applying ball pressure on the opposing guards. Paul has also been much better on the offensive end than Kidd,but has also been caught flat footed several times on defense. While I think Williams and Paul are much better options at the point than Kidd, I like the idea of bringing them off the bench for a change of pace much like is being done with Wade.

The play of the bigs has been puzzling as well. Howard can be a manchild down low at times and then disappear for the whole game like today. Bosh seems like an okay option but I would have liked to see him at the 4 in place of Boozer and another true 5 brought in to compliment the athletic Howard when he comes out. The problem is I cannot think of any American who fits that description right now. Oden, Bynum, or Hibbert have the potential to fit that bill, but non of them have any business playing in the Olympics right now.

Finally, I would have loved to seen Rasheed Wallace put on the team just to see how he reacts to some of these calls from the international officials.;)

Michael Young
08-04-2008, 05:15 AM
Cincy: Brad Miller comes to mind as does Jermaine O'Neal but I think O'Neal is focusing on coming back strong next season from his injuries.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 07:51 AM
We are talking about he name on the front of the jersey not the one on the back.

Then why do they have names on the back?

improbus
08-04-2008, 08:56 AM
Any thoughts on the Kidd not playing/benching in the 2nd half? Is it just Coach K giving a veteran some rest or something more. It is very obvious that Williams has been a more effective all around point especially in splitting the middle of the zone and applying ball pressure on the opposing guards. Paul has also been much better on the offensive end than Kidd,but has also been caught flat footed several times on defense. While I think Williams and Paul are much better options at the point than Kidd, I like the idea of bringing them off the bench for a change of pace much like is being done with Wade.

The play of the bigs has been puzzling as well. Howard can be a manchild down low at times and then disappear for the whole game like today. Bosh seems like an okay option but I would have liked to see him at the 4 in place of Boozer and another true 5 brought in to compliment the athletic Howard when he comes out. The problem is I cannot think of any American who fits that description right now. Oden, Bynum, or Hibbert have the potential to fit that bill, but non of them have any business playing in the Olympics right now.

Finally, I would have loved to seen Rasheed Wallace put on the team just to see how he reacts to some of these calls from the international officials.;)
Great post. I have the sinking suspicion that Kidd is done. He was horrendous for the Mavs towards the end of the season. I want to see Paul and Williams at all times. Kidd should be a "coach".

Finally, you mentioned 'Sheed (my favorite player). He would be the perfect post option for this team. He can D' any international big (especially the Gasol boys, Dirk, or Okur) and he can shoot (an international game requirement). Really, when you think about it, Rasheed is the most complete post player in the NBA in the last 20 years. He can shoot, pass, post-up, defend, and is a selfless teammate. It's just unfortunate that he has a "slight" temper.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 10:18 AM
Most complete post player? That is absurd! Rasheed rarely if ever even plays the post. He is too busy shooting long jumpers and 3s.

BuckeyeRed27
08-04-2008, 10:19 AM
Then why do they have names on the back?

So you have something to complain about?

improbus
08-04-2008, 10:23 AM
Most complete post player? That is absurd! Rasheed rarely if ever even plays the post. He is too busy shooting long jumpers and 3s.
Sheed has a terrific turn-around baseline jumper from about 6-8 feet. It is his most deadly weapon.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 11:54 AM
So you have something to complain about?

Good response, if you are in 4th grade. I'm not complaining about anything. I just don't like some of the players on the Team USA roster. All the complaining is being done by those of you who refuse to accept the fact that some people just don't care about the Olympics, especially a team made up of street thugs.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 12:01 PM
Sheed has a terrific turn-around baseline jumper from about 6-8 feet. It is his most deadly weapon.

That is fine, it doesn't make him the most complete post player because he can execute one post move. The guy averages about 15 PPG. 90% of his time is spent on the perimeter or yapping at the refs. It takes one call to get him off his game. A complete player wouldn't let the refs get under his skin.

Rasheed is like Derrick Coleman. The ability to be the best but just not the head to do it. 20 years is a long time. You are spanning the careers of Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, two guys who should be considered much better players (and complete) than Wallace. Barkley could kill you inside and out. He could dribble by you or go thru you. Malone might be the best 4 to ever play the game and he too could hit the outside shot.

TeamSelig
08-04-2008, 01:00 PM
Street thugs? Carmelo is the only one on the roster that you could easily label that. Do you want them to recruit white guys? Ask Larry Bird how well that works.

I'd really rather not have Sheed on the team either lol... They need Shaq to come in for a few minutes a game ;)

Also, I'd avoid Brad Miller too with his current drug suspension.

15fan
08-04-2008, 01:15 PM
Malone might be the best 4 to ever play the game and he too could hit the outside shot.

Tim Duncan has a whole lot of hardware in his living room that might dispute that assertion.

Roy Tucker
08-04-2008, 01:50 PM
Yeah, I thought the thug factor on Team USA was way down for the 2008 version. With guys like Prince, Battier, etc. it seemed that the team concept was being emphasized more. I was much happier with the roster makeup of this team over previous years.

However, I get distinctly uneasy when the US emphasizes fast breaks and who can make the most spectacular dunk. Y'all can do that against Turkey or Iran, but when you play the big teams, those fast break points just won't be there. Like Russia did, teams know they can't run with the US so they'll do everything they can to slow down the pace of play.

improbus
08-04-2008, 01:59 PM
That is fine, it doesn't make him the most complete post player because he can execute one post move. The guy averages about 15 PPG. 90% of his time is spent on the perimeter or yapping at the refs. It takes one call to get him off his game. A complete player wouldn't let the refs get under his skin.

Rasheed is like Derrick Coleman. The ability to be the best but just not the head to do it. 20 years is a long time. You are spanning the careers of Karl Malone and Charles Barkley, two guys who should be considered much better players (and complete) than Wallace. Barkley could kill you inside and out. He could dribble by you or go thru you. Malone might be the best 4 to ever play the game and he too could hit the outside shot.

If I were going to build a post-player, it would be Rasheed. He is 7'0'', his shot is almost unblockable, and he is able to defend almost anyone, and is a good rebounder. Rasheed is a very unselfish player. He could have easily averaged 25+ in his prime, but he understands basketball and he understands that his scoring isn't always the most important thing. Barkley was a career 27% 3 point shooter, Rasheed is a 34% shooter (and is getting better). Barkley and Malone were better players, but they were not as versatile as 'Sheed.

Jack Burton
08-04-2008, 03:53 PM
I'll be rooting for them to lose, I think it would be funny considering how much money they get paid to play the game "professionally". It's not much of a team concept with USA basketball, it's all about the highlight material.

Hoosier Red
08-04-2008, 03:58 PM
I'm curious how many games you've watched in the last two years Jack?

While certainly true of the teams that could win on pure talent(up to 2000 Olympics)

I think that was a bit overblown as the reason for losing in 2002, 2004, and 2006, and is certainly not true of the current incarnation of the team.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 04:22 PM
I'll be rooting for them to lose, I think it would be funny considering how much money they get paid to play the game "professionally". It's not much of a team concept with USA basketball, it's all about the highlight material.


It's not like the other teams aren't using pros.

Roy Tucker
08-04-2008, 04:31 PM
It's not like the other teams aren't using pros.

Yep.

I think the word "amateur" left the Olympics with Avery Brundage.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 05:10 PM
Kobe and Kidd are the guys I am talking about. Kobe is a punk, I don't care what his fans who would go to the grave for him, say. Kidd beat up his wife and he too is a punk. I hope the two of them collide into coach K, putting all 3 out of commision. Then I hope Lebron yells "FREE TIBET" after a dunk which starts the riot I mentioned in the other thread.

SeeinRed
08-04-2008, 05:13 PM
I'll be rooting for them to lose, I think it would be funny considering how much money they get paid to play the game "professionally". It's not much of a team concept with USA basketball, it's all about the highlight material.


This kind of attitude irks me. 1. How much do they get paid to play for team USA? 2. If you could play the game well, would you play for 100 dollars a game just to play or would you play for the amount that a team is willing to pay you because fans will come out and watch you by the thousands? These players aren't just handed millions of dollars to go play how they want because they are greedy. They play well enough to help a professional team play and these teams are willing to pay them millions to help them win. That is made possible by the fact that millions of people are willing to pay, in some form, for the entertainment these athletes provide. Being an athlete on a high level isn't all just showing up for a couple hours to play a game either. Most athletes spend most of their waking hours trying to better themselves and staying in shape. Yeah, its not pencil pushing in a cubicle, but they have the talent to be in a profession that pays really really well. They may not "deserve" the money in your opinion, but then again, nobody "deserves" money. You earn it. They earned theirs by putting in the time and practicing constantly. They have a lot of natural ability as well, but there are a lot of people that are naturally better at math. They get good jobs like engineers and make more money than some also. I don't make much, but I don't hate people who make more than me. Maybe I'm just not an envious person.

I've yet to meet one person that wouldn't take the oppurtunity to make millions if it was offered to them. The reasoning might be different.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 05:19 PM
Tim Duncan has a whole lot of hardware in his living room that might dispute that assertion.

Agreed. Simply forgot about TD. I think he too is more complete of a player than Mr. Wallace.

Yes, Wallace can shoot the 3 better than most folks, but does that really make him a more complete player? 3 point shooting is only a small part of the game. Shooting only 2 pointers if you can shoot 50% it is just as good as 34% from behind the arc.

Barkley couldn't shoot as well as Sheed but he could dribble by people where Wallace can't dribble by anyone with ease. In all most other areas, Barkley was better than Wallace, so how he is not more complete? Same with Duncan. He trumps Wallace just about everywhere, just not the 3 ball.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 05:23 PM
I don't make much, but I don't hate people who make more than me. Maybe I'm just not an envious person.

Where did he say he "hated" people who made a bunch of money. He said it would be "FUNNY" if they lost.

improbus
08-04-2008, 05:55 PM
Agreed. Simply forgot about TD. I think he too is more complete of a player than Mr. Wallace.

Yes, Wallace can shoot the 3 better than most folks, but does that really make him a more complete player? 3 point shooting is only a small part of the game. Shooting only 2 pointers if you can shoot 50% it is just as good as 34% from behind the arc.

Barkley couldn't shoot as well as Sheed but he could dribble by people where Wallace can't dribble by anyone with ease. In all most other areas, Barkley was better than Wallace, so how he is not more complete? Same with Duncan. He trumps Wallace just about everywhere, just not the 3 ball.

Barkley was limited on defense because of his size. Sheed can guard any 4 or 5 in the league (he has even guarded Shaq many times) and there is no way that Chuck could have guarded the Daddy. Barkley was a unique guy. Name me another 6'5'' guy who can do what he did.

I want to make this absolutely clear, Barkley was a better player than Rasheed. But NO ONE has been able to replicate Barkley and no one ever will be that combination of size, speed, and back-side. What I am saying is that Rasheed has all of the tools that you want in a post player. Duncan is better, Shaq was better, but 'Sheed had more overall tools.

MaineRed
08-04-2008, 08:01 PM
Yes Rasheed has all the tools. So did DC (Coleman). I was hoping the Celtics would get Sheed back when the Pistons got him because I felt he was much better than his reputation. He is misunderstood and probably not near the distraction that the media makes him out to be but I still believe calling him the most complete anything is a stretch. Heckuva player but you are calling him more complete than more than a few HOFers. McHale was still solid 20 years ago. I realize he couldn't hit the 3 but he was a fantastic defender with his long arms.

improbus
08-05-2008, 11:11 AM
Anyone watch the USA vs. Australia? I caught some of it. The US team really struggled on offense with Kidd on the floor. Defenders sag off of him and that crowds the lane making it difficult for Kobe and LeBron to attack. I love JKidd, but it is time to put him out to pasture.

Redsfaithful
08-05-2008, 08:40 PM
Isn't it American to root for the underdog? That's definitely not Team USA. I mean, I'll be rooting for them, but some of you are acting like this actually matters.

improbus
08-05-2008, 08:52 PM
It is a rare case indeed when we are the true underdog. But, this is where the great irony kicks in. If America really wanted to get behind a real underdog and stick it to the rest of the world (which we really enjoy doing), there is only one sport and team to support. US Men's Soccer. The American Sports Media spends so much time disparaging and downplaying soccer that it fails to see what could become one of the greatest achievements in American sports. Imagine this scenario, the underdog American soccer team beats France to go to the final match of the World Cup. How mant "red-blooded" Americans would be able to resist beating the French at their own game?

MaineRed
08-06-2008, 07:24 AM
The American Sports Media spends so much time disparaging and downplaying soccer

Yeah, because soccer sucks.

Jack Burton
08-06-2008, 11:56 AM
Don't get me wrong, I root for the U.S. in most, if not all, other sports.

TeamSelig
08-06-2008, 01:31 PM
Yeah, because soccer sucks.

something we finally agree on :)

improbus
08-06-2008, 01:50 PM
something we finally agree on :)
sad....

improbus
08-10-2008, 09:33 PM
China was close because they were hitting their 3's and the Americans missed all of them. Wade has been dominant and looks like his old self, not the injured and beaten down guy playing in Miami last year.
To me, the key to this team is three point shooting. If they hit them, they will win gold because it will open up the driving lanes. If they don't, teams will pack in the defense and dare them to shoot.

improbus
08-14-2008, 08:04 AM
Huge game against Greece. I can't be more excited. Although I noticed that they are starting Jason Kidd's corpse...

HumnHilghtFreel
08-14-2008, 09:11 AM
Huge game against Greece. I can't be more excited. Although I noticed that they are starting Jason Kidd's corpse...

Kidd has been awful. I'd be happy if he was used only in emergency reserve role from here out.

Chris Bosh has been having an amazing game. As has D Wade.

The pressure on D has kept them in transition which has kept the Greeks from setting up on defense. They're playing quite well, but still not shooting particularly well.

improbus
08-14-2008, 09:31 AM
Kidd has been awful. I'd be happy if he was used only in emergency reserve role from here out.

Chris Bosh has been having an amazing game. As has D Wade.

The pressure on D has kept them in transition which has kept the Greeks from setting up on defense. They're playing quite well, but still not shooting particularly well.

Dwyane Wade is serving notice. Why do I have a sinking feeling that the Heat are going to be a HUGE surprise this year with Marion, Wade, and Beasley? That is alot of athletic ability.

Redlegs23
08-14-2008, 09:56 AM
Isn't it American to root for the underdog? That's definitely not Team USA. I mean, I'll be rooting for them, but some of you are acting like this actually matters.


Actually it's American to root for America.

Nice game today against Greece. Wade looked great getting to the hole, and Lebron had some great defensive plays.

improbus
08-14-2008, 09:56 AM
Very solid performance by the US team. Bosh was fabulous. LeBron is playing some of the best basketball I have ever seen, and Wade was fantastic. Greece is the type of team that typically gives the US problems, so things are looking good.

MasonBuzz3
08-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Lebron is showing what he can do, when he doesn't have to score 75% of his teams points. LBJ is the world's best player at 23...sick


and, Bosh was ridiculous guarding the smaller guards along the perimeter today...too bad he gets lost playing in Toronto.

TeamSelig
08-14-2008, 03:56 PM
Bosh was reminding me of KG with that tenacious D.... makes you wonder if he can keep up his motivation for the Raptors.

gm
08-14-2008, 05:56 PM
Tim Duncan has a whole lot of hardware in his living room that might dispute that assertion.

Somehow, I knew you would chime in...'Sheed has a "slight" temper? Tell that to the PDX sportswriters.

Thank God the "Jail-Blazer" era is over

Rooting for team USA Basketball is like rooting for Haleburton to win the bid

(of course, I'll feel differently in 2012 when Oden and Roy are wearing the red, white and blue)

MasonBuzz3
08-15-2008, 12:01 AM
anyone rooting against the team or that thinks sheed should be on the team might need to re-examine things....but to each his own

I don't see how rooting for the USA basketball team is any different than rooting for Phelps, both are far and away better than their competition and should cruise to a gold medal(s)

gm
08-15-2008, 04:25 PM
If Phelps was swimming against your alma mater and knocking them off in the regionals every year, you might feel differently.

Pick the player you cannot stand to see repeatedly beating your favorite team. The kind of guy guy who is arrogant and rubs it in your team's face every time? Who will never condescend and give your team credit when he loses?

Then put him on the national team and tell me you've got no problem rooting for his success.

bucksfan2
08-18-2008, 10:16 AM
If Phelps was swimming against your alma mater and knocking them off in the regionals every year, you might feel differently.

Pick the player you cannot stand to see repeatedly beating your favorite team. The kind of guy guy who is arrogant and rubs it in your team's face every time? Who will never condescend and give your team credit when he loses?

Then put him on the national team and tell me you've got no problem rooting for his success.

This is an interesting sentiment. I for one can not and will not root for Carmelo Anthony. I am disappointed that he is on the national team. I feel that he is an awful representative of an American. I still will root for the US team just not Anthony.

On a side not I find it amusing how Team USA gets credit for playing defense. It is a part of the game. If you don't play defense you will lose the game. From the little I have watched of the team when they play poor defense the other team scores. When Team USA plays basketball the fundamental way they are unbeatable.

Who wins a game Team USA 08 or Team US 92?

Roy Tucker
08-18-2008, 11:33 AM
Very solid performance by the US team. Bosh was fabulous. LeBron is playing some of the best basketball I have ever seen, and Wade was fantastic. Greece is the type of team that typically gives the US problems, so things are looking good.

I watched a big chunk of this game and was similarly impressed. I can't say Team USA plays good team defense, but they scrap and hustle and play good individual defense and that seems to work. Wade particularly looked good and served notice to the NBA that he'll be back. Bosh played goalie well and blocked the shots of guys that managed to get around Kobe, LeBron, Dwayne, et al. Rebounded well too.

(just saw where the US hammered Germany)

There are guys on Team USA I like more than others and there are some I just flat out don't like. But that's true with the Reds (see Sanders, Deion) and about every other sports team I root for.

But I sure as heck will root for USA and not Greece, Spain, Germany, etc.

Read this in the latest SI which is a little scary (excellent article BTW). If you have 1.5 billion people to choose from, you're bound to find some tall guys.

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1143983/index.htm



As part of a larger initiative to promote healthy lifestyles, the Chinese government built 60,000 outdoor basketball courts last year and wants to lay down another 700,000 over the next decade so that every village has one. In the southern province of Guangxi, 20,000 teams (not people, teams) took part in the most recent provincial tournament.

improbus
08-18-2008, 09:29 PM
This team is playing some of the most entertaining basketball that I've seen since '92. For those of you who have written off Team USA and pro basketball in general, you are missing the boat. This is not '90's Knicks vs. Heat basketball or Jordan wannabe's basketball. This is good stuff. Unselfish basketball is coming back, team basketball is coming back.

MasonBuzz3
08-18-2008, 11:15 PM
Who wins a game Team USA 08 or Team US 92?

I think its a lot closer than most people would think. The 08 version is by far more athletic, but the 92 team had some of the greatest players in history....just a different type of athlete 16 years later. The thing that strikes me is that the 08 team is playing against far better competition and no team is going to be in awe of playing against NBA stars as was the case in 92. The competition now is comprised of many NBA players or soon to be NBA talent. That intimidation factor isnt there like it was in 92.
The 1992 roster for reference:
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Scottie Pippen
Christian Laettner

bucksfan2
08-19-2008, 08:18 AM
I think its a lot closer than most people would think. The 08 version is by far more athletic, but the 92 team had some of the greatest players in history....just a different type of athlete 16 years later. The thing that strikes me is that the 08 team is playing against far better competition and no team is going to be in awe of playing against NBA stars as was the case in 92. The competition now is comprised of many NBA players or soon to be NBA talent. That intimidation factor isnt there like it was in 92.
The 1992 roster for reference:
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Scottie Pippen
Christian Laettner

If you asking about more pure talent it is the 08 team. No doubt about it. But take away from Laettner from the 92 team and you have a list of HOFs. The 08 team wouldn't have a clue what to do when they saw a pass first point guard. They wouldn't know what to do with two fundamentally sound big men. They would be pissed when a fat, 6"4' guy is boxing out and rebounding around the likes of much bigger and more athletic men. I haven't even mentioned the best player and one of the best point men in all of basketball.

The 08 team is playing against better world wide competition but they still are much more athletic than the opponents. They go through lapses of poor defense thinking that their athleticism will compensate for the poor defensive play. The 92 team would take advantage of that in a big big way. Fundamentally the 08 team wouldn't know what hit them. A guy like Stockton would bother the 08 team to no end. When talent plays good fundamental basketball they win. Does the 08 team know good fundamental basketball?

Hoosier Red
08-19-2008, 10:11 AM
If you asking about more pure talent it is the 08 team. No doubt about it. But take away from Laettner from the 92 team and you have a list of HOFs. The 08 team wouldn't have a clue what to do when they saw a pass first point guard. They wouldn't know what to do with two fundamentally sound big men. They would be pissed when a fat, 6"4' guy is boxing out and rebounding around the likes of much bigger and more athletic men. I haven't even mentioned the best player and one of the best point men in all of basketball.

The 08 team is playing against better world wide competition but they still are much more athletic than the opponents. They go through lapses of poor defense thinking that their athleticism will compensate for the poor defensive play. The 92 team would take advantage of that in a big big way. Fundamentally the 08 team wouldn't know what hit them. A guy like Stockton would bother the 08 team to no end. When talent plays good fundamental basketball they win. Does the 08 team know good fundamental basketball?

I'm pretty sure Chris Paul and Derren Williams have seen a few "pass first point guards"
And the "fundamentally sound" big men from Spain and Germany just had the hats handed to them.

Chip R
08-19-2008, 10:17 AM
You also have to remember that Magic and Bird weren't in their primes in 92. The 08 team may be able to win if it were an up and down game but in a walk-up game where MJ and Bird could get their shots and guys like Ewing, Malone, Barkley and Robinson could be a presence in the paint. If they got fouled they were a much better free throw shooting team and then there's MJ.

Cyclone792
08-19-2008, 10:31 AM
The 1992 Dream Team was the greatest collection of talent I've ever seen on one basketball team.

15fan
08-19-2008, 11:25 AM
The 1992 Dream Team was the greatest collection of talent I've ever seen on one basketball team.

The Olympic folks really blew it in 1992. The tournament should have been drawn up so that the Dream Team played the Harlem Globetrotters for the gold medal.

cumberlandreds
08-19-2008, 11:54 AM
92 is better. First thing is you have Jordan. He's the best clutch player ever. He wouldn't let that team lose. Next thing is that they are much bigger. I'm sure they could control tempo enough to pretty much destroy the 08 team inside.

Scrap Irony
08-19-2008, 04:23 PM
Not only that, the '92 team could handle today's team defensively fairly easily as well.

PG
Magic v. Kidd
Advantage: '92
Kidd's quickness to the hoop would be difficult to stop, but he doesn't shoot when he gets there, so it doesn't really matter. Besides, noone stopped Magic's post-up for a decade. Kidd couldn't either.

SG
Jordan v. Kobe
Advantage: '92
Greatest player ever v. greatest player of his generation. Jordan's D was perhaps the best ever by a guard. While Kobe has improved in that area, he's not in Jordan's class. Too, this was about the time Air began shooting well from deep, becoming not only the best high-flying guard in history, but one of the best shooters as well.

SF
Pippen v. LeBron
Advantage: '08
Pippen is almost athletic enough to stay with LeBron. Almost. Still, Pippen's a much better shooter and defender. James' strength is the key here and, because of that, he's the only modern-day player to gain an advantage over his Dream Team foe.

PF
Malone v. Carmelo
Advantage: '92
Malone may be the best power forward of all time. He had it all and played dirty. 'Melo can shoot. That's pretty much it. Perhaps the biggest advantage of al the starters.

C
Ewing v. Howard
Advantage: '92
Ewing played phenomenal D and had a variety of post moves. Howard is an athletic beast and plays two feet above the rim, but his post moves are, at best, sophomoric.

Bench
Advantage: '92
Redd v. Mullin?
Bird v. Prince?
Paul/ Williams v. Stockton / Drexler?
The only poor choice was Dukie Laettner. Laettner? Really? What, did the team need a prick?

Coaching
Advantage: '92
Coach K is a great college coach. Daly was perhaps the best professional coach of his era. How he made the Pistons into a powerhouse with that mix of personalities and talent is one of the most remarkable stories of NBA history. K had a nice run of talent for a decade mainly because of ESPN.

TeamSelig
08-19-2008, 06:01 PM
92 is better. First thing is you have Jordan. He's the best clutch player ever. He wouldn't let that team lose. Next thing is that they are much bigger. I'm sure they could control tempo enough to pretty much destroy the 08 team inside.


Jordan was only the #2 scorer on the team and had the 2nd lowest FG% (Laettner was first, imagine that)... As far as comparisons go:

PG
Magic v. Deron/Kidd...... Magic is 33 years old and retired after the 90-91 season... although played very well that season. Note: Magic averaged nearly 4 turnovers per game in that season. Deron is a big point guard so Magic's size advantage isn't as much. Deron's combo of size/speed might be troublesome to the aging Magic. I can't go against the greatest PG of all time, but I don't think the advantage is as much as one might think. If Stockton plays, he could be man handled by Deron or matched with CP3.

SG
MJ v. Kobe... both seem to not play as well in the olympics. I'd probably argue that Kobe's defense (on the olympic team) is right there with MJ if not better. Obviously MJ is the better player, but I think it's safe to say that Kobe isn't FAR off from him.

SF
Pippen v. Lebron... I take James 10/10, but thats just me.

Big men positions definitely have a 92 advantage. I'm not sure how Ewing would do against a man beast of Howard. Malone/Barkley v Melo/Bosh is interesting, but a 92 advantage. However, I'm not sure how well the bigs would keep up w/ 08.

It would be an interesting game, no matter the outcome. I don't think it would be an easy win for '92 by all means.

TeamSelig
08-19-2008, 06:05 PM
Also, forgot to mention the bench.

With Wade coming off the bench and the way he is playing, I can't help but give the advantage to the 08 team. Plus Bosh, Kidd, Redd, Prince, Paul, etc.

gm
08-19-2008, 07:36 PM
The 1992 roster for reference:
Michael Jordan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Clyde Drexler
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Scottie Pippen
Christian Laettner

"One of these things is not like the others..." Sing it with me!

The Tournament of the Americas and the NBA draft was held in PDX, leading up to the '92 Olympics. The Dookie got a very large "BOO!" from the Blazer fans when his name was announced that afternoon.

Portland picked Dave Johnson out of Syracuse, late in the 1st round. ("murmur murmur murmur")

Good trivia question: what city other than NY has hosted the NBA draft?

Hoosier Red
08-19-2008, 09:53 PM
"One of these things is not like the others..." Sing it with me!

The Tournament of the Americas and the NBA draft was held in PDX, leading up to the '92 Olympics. The Dookie got a very large "BOO!" from the Blazer fans when his name was announced that afternoon.

Portland picked Dave Johnson out of Syracuse, late in the 1st round. ("murmur murmur murmur")

Good trivia question: what city other than NY has hosted the NBA draft?

I thought Indianapolis did one year. The fans booed when the locals didn't draft Damon Bailey if I remember reading.

improbus
08-19-2008, 09:57 PM
The '92 team would win just because this team struggles from three. With the size advantage, the '08 boys would have to shoot from distance and they aren't great shooters.

Think about this lineup:
Magic (6'8'')
Jordan (6'6'')
Pippin (6'8")
Bird (6'10")
Ewing (7'0")
Too much size. Magic would post up the smaller guys relentlessly

MasonBuzz3
08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
while the '92 team was comprised of the all time greats, Bird and Magic were on the extreme end of their careers and were shells of what many remember. The 2008 point guards (Paul or Williams, Kidd should not be starting) would run around Magic. Bird would have a tough time with any of the athletic forwards on the 08 team as well. I would actually take the 08 bench over the 92 as well. I think that the 08 would win 6 out of 10 times, in what would be incredible games. But the '92 would have to slow the tempo down in order to keep up with the world class athleticism of the 2008 squad. Just a huge difference between the late 80's - early 90's basketball player and today's player.


one match up that I find intriguing is at the 2 -3 positions, which is a better combo?
MJ and Pippen in 92 -or - Kobe and Lebron in 08? I take the latter

MasonBuzz3
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
The '92 team would win just because this team struggles from three. With the size advantage, the '08 boys would have to shoot from distance and they aren't great shooters.

Think about this lineup:
Magic (6'8'')
Jordan (6'6'')
Pippin (6'8")
Bird (6'10")
Ewing (7'0")
Too much size. Magic would post up the smaller guys relentlessly

the 08 team could counter with
Lebron (6'8") 23 years old
Kobe (6'5") 30
Melo(6'7") 24
Bosh (6'10") 24
Howard (6'11") 22
Bosh and Howard would be able to work Bird and Ewing down-low consistently, in my opinion

improbus
08-20-2008, 08:46 AM
the 08 team could counter with
Lebron (6'8") 23 years old
Kobe (6'5") 30
Melo(6'7") 24
Bosh (6'10") 24
Howard (6'11") 22
Bosh and Howard would be able to work Bird and Ewing down-low consistently, in my opinion

No chance. Bosh is pretty good, but he would not be able to handle Bird's outside game. Howard has no post moves and Ewing was a great defender. If they get in any foul trouble, the US only has Boozer on the bench. The '92 guys still have Malone, Barkley, and the Admiral.

The '08 team thrives on the mistakes of the other teams, and those are mistakes that the '92 team wouldn't make.

HumnHilghtFreel
08-20-2008, 09:29 AM
Absolutely crushing Australia this morning. 101-70 with 6 minutes remaining. I continue to be really impressed with Chris Bosh, he's been a very good perimeter defender for a big man through this tournament.

OldRightHander
08-20-2008, 10:51 AM
Ok, I recognize the talent on this year's team, but am I the only one who actually preferred watching basketball the way it used to be played? It seemed that when I played (and that's been quite a few years ago) it was a markedly different game, more passing and less dribbling. I was a shooting guard and I hardly ever did much dribbling. I was working off the ball to get open and then I either took an open shot or passed it down low to someone posting up. Sure, there was the occasional fast break that would come off a defensive play, but it seemed the half court offense was more important then, not as much run and gun.

Now as I type this, I'm watching Argentina and Greece and they're pretty much playing the way I was talking about. It's pretty entertaining actually. I know it's just a stylistic preference, and maybe it's partly because I was always a slow white guy with a good outside shot.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 11:15 AM
Ok, I recognize the talent on this year's team, but am I the only one who actually preferred watching basketball the way it used to be played? It seemed that when I played (and that's been quite a few years ago) it was a markedly different game, more passing and less dribbling. I was a shooting guard and I hardly ever did much dribbling. I was working off the ball to get open and then I either took an open shot or passed it down low to someone posting up. Sure, there was the occasional fast break that would come off a defensive play, but it seemed the half court offense was more important then, not as much run and gun.

Now as I type this, I'm watching Argentina and Greece and they're pretty much playing the way I was talking about. It's pretty entertaining actually. I know it's just a stylistic preference, and maybe it's partly because I was always a slow white guy with a good outside shot.


They used to have a jump ball after every basket too. :devil:

OldRightHander
08-20-2008, 11:22 AM
They used to have a jump ball after every basket too. :devil:

Well, I don't date back that far, but when I was in high school we didn't have the three point shot yet.

improbus
08-20-2008, 11:24 AM
Ok, I recognize the talent on this year's team, but am I the only one who actually preferred watching basketball the way it used to be played? It seemed that when I played (and that's been quite a few years ago) it was a markedly different game, more passing and less dribbling. I was a shooting guard and I hardly ever did much dribbling. I was working off the ball to get open and then I either took an open shot or passed it down low to someone posting up. Sure, there was the occasional fast break that would come off a defensive play, but it seemed the half court offense was more important then, not as much run and gun.

Now as I type this, I'm watching Argentina and Greece and they're pretty much playing the way I was talking about. It's pretty entertaining actually. I know it's just a stylistic preference, and maybe it's partly because I was always a slow white guy with a good outside shot.

Yeah, the change in American basketball happened when a few things took place.
1) Team defense improved in the '90's. In the '80's, you had one defensive guy and four others who saw defense as your chance to rest before your next offensive possession. The Pistons changes that with Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and others. They were so physical. Look at the '92 Dream Team. Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, and Mullin were all defensive liabilities. The only guy like that on this team is Carmelo Anthony.
2) Team continuity changed with free agency. In the '80's you had teams that played together for years. They would add one or two parts, but would remain largely intact over a 4-5 year period. The only two teams to accomplish that this decade has been the Pistons and the Spurs, two of the most accomplished teams. Solid passing offense requires time and practice, something that very few teams have.
3) Expansion. There are more teams. In 1984, there were 23 teams. Now there are 30. Imagine if you contracted 7 teams and redistributed the players. If you got rid of the 7 worst teams in the NBA, these guys would be redistributed:
Wade
Marion
Redd
Bogut
Durant
Al Jefferson
Brand (w/ the Clippers)
Kaman
Maggette
Rudy Gay
-Tell me that that wouldn't improve the overall level of play of the other teams.

TeamSelig
08-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Yeah, the change in American basketball happened when a few things took place.
1) Team defense improved in the '90's. In the '80's, you had one defensive guy and four others who saw defense as your chance to rest before your next offensive possession. The Pistons changes that with Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and others. They were so physical. Look at the '92 Dream Team. Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, and Mullin were all defensive liabilities. The only guy like that on this team is Carmelo Anthony.
2) Team continuity changed with free agency. In the '80's you had teams that played together for years. They would add one or two parts, but would remain largely intact over a 4-5 year period. The only two teams to accomplish that this decade has been the Pistons and the Spurs, two of the most accomplished teams. Solid passing offense requires time and practice, something that very few teams have.
3) Expansion. There are more teams. In 1984, there were 23 teams. Now there are 30. Imagine if you contracted 7 teams and redistributed the players. If you got rid of the 7 worst teams in the NBA, these guys would be redistributed:
Wade
Marion
Redd
Bogut
Durant
Al Jefferson
Brand (w/ the Clippers)
Kaman
Maggette
Rudy Gay
-Tell me that that wouldn't improve the overall level of play of the other teams.

good post

dougdirt
08-20-2008, 12:27 PM
Yeah, the change in American basketball happened when a few things took place.
1) Team defense improved in the '90's. In the '80's, you had one defensive guy and four others who saw defense as your chance to rest before your next offensive possession. The Pistons changes that with Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and others. They were so physical. Look at the '92 Dream Team. Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, and Mullin were all defensive liabilities. The only guy like that on this team is Carmelo Anthony.
2) Team continuity changed with free agency. In the '80's you had teams that played together for years. They would add one or two parts, but would remain largely intact over a 4-5 year period. The only two teams to accomplish that this decade has been the Pistons and the Spurs, two of the most accomplished teams. Solid passing offense requires time and practice, something that very few teams have.
3) Expansion. There are more teams. In 1984, there were 23 teams. Now there are 30. Imagine if you contracted 7 teams and redistributed the players. If you got rid of the 7 worst teams in the NBA, these guys would be redistributed:
Wade
Marion
Redd
Bogut
Durant
Al Jefferson
Brand (w/ the Clippers)
Kaman
Maggette
Rudy Gay
-Tell me that that wouldn't improve the overall level of play of the other teams.

While you have more teams, we are also drawing from the entire world now, instead of just the US and a handful of international players.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 12:34 PM
While you have more teams, we are also drawing from the entire world now, instead of just the US and a handful of international players.


Exactly. They made the point that in 92 there were only a handful of international players playing in the NBA. The teams the 92 team faced were nowhere near the caliber of the teams the 08 team has faced.

improbus
08-20-2008, 12:56 PM
While you have more teams, we are also drawing from the entire world now, instead of just the US and a handful of international players.

That is true, but you have one more thing to take into account. The death of the Elite American White Basketball Player (or EAWBP's). You can look at this two ways.
-The NBA embraced the hip hop generation and turned off White Middle America.
-Young white kids stopped playing basketball and started doing other sports (swimming, water polo, extreme sports, etc...). Remember the Larry Bird story about shooting basketballs all day on a makeshift rim. That notion died a long time ago. Brad Miller, Wally, and Stockton are the only white All Stars from this decade, and they were all questionable picks at that time (Stockton was really old).

So, you could say that the foreign guys have taken the place of the Bird, McHale, Chambers, Price, Stockton, Walton, Mullin, Ainge, and others.

reds44
08-20-2008, 01:00 PM
Ok, I recognize the talent on this year's team, but am I the only one who actually preferred watching basketball the way it used to be played? It seemed that when I played (and that's been quite a few years ago) it was a markedly different game, more passing and less dribbling. I was a shooting guard and I hardly ever did much dribbling. I was working off the ball to get open and then I either took an open shot or passed it down low to someone posting up. Sure, there was the occasional fast break that would come off a defensive play, but it seemed the half court offense was more important then, not as much run and gun.

Now as I type this, I'm watching Argentina and Greece and they're pretty much playing the way I was talking about. It's pretty entertaining actually. I know it's just a stylistic preference, and maybe it's partly because I was always a slow white guy with a good outside shot.
I absolutely love watching this team press all game, force turnovers, and just dunk on people.

bucksfan2
08-20-2008, 02:18 PM
Yeah, the change in American basketball happened when a few things took place.
1) Team defense improved in the '90's. In the '80's, you had one defensive guy and four others who saw defense as your chance to rest before your next offensive possession. The Pistons changes that with Mahorn, Rodman, Laimbeer, and others. They were so physical. Look at the '92 Dream Team. Barkley, Malone, Bird, Magic, and Mullin were all defensive liabilities. The only guy like that on this team is Carmelo Anthony.
2) Team continuity changed with free agency. In the '80's you had teams that played together for years. They would add one or two parts, but would remain largely intact over a 4-5 year period. The only two teams to accomplish that this decade has been the Pistons and the Spurs, two of the most accomplished teams. Solid passing offense requires time and practice, something that very few teams have.
3) Expansion. There are more teams. In 1984, there were 23 teams. Now there are 30. Imagine if you contracted 7 teams and redistributed the players.

The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

Lack of development has hurt many of these players. Most of the best pro players spend less than a year in college basketball. Their fundamentals are unrefinded. Most of the 90 stars spend 3+ years in college. There has been a definate change in the way players are drafted now. Players are drafted more on potential right now.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.

TeamSelig
08-20-2008, 03:01 PM
John Stockon career 10.5 APG

Deron Williams 10.5 APG last season in his third season.
Chris Paul 11.6 APG last season also in his third season.
Steve Nash 11.1 APG last season

There are plenty great passing floor generals. Just because they aren't mediocre scorers doesn't take anything from them IMO.

As far as big men strength, maybe Ewing/Malone/etc. would lay out someone flying into the lane, but I'm not so sure about that....

James 6'8" 250 lbs
Malone 6'9" 256 lbs

Ewing 7'0" 255 lbs
Howard 6'11" 265 lbs

It's crazy how much the human body has grown in comparison of just 10-20 years ago. Malone and Ewing were beasts of their day and now Lebron/Howard are basically the same size except they are gifted with unbelievable verticals and great speed to boot.

improbus
08-20-2008, 03:22 PM
The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

Lack of development has hurt many of these players. Most of the best pro players spend less than a year in college basketball. Their fundamentals are unrefinded. Most of the 90 stars spend 3+ years in college. There has been a definate change in the way players are drafted now. Players are drafted more on potential right now.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.
A few things.
1) The correlation between 3's and winning is strong, while the correlation between mid-range shots and winning is small. So, mid-rangers have been devalued like BA has in baseball.
2) As far as knocking people down, the NBA will suspend people for anything. Remember McHale's clothesline of Kurt Rambis? That would have had McHale out of the next three games today and there would be an Outside the Lines special on violence in the NBA. So players today have to be careful.
3) You may have been right about PG's in 1996 when teams were looking for "combo-guards" like Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury, but not now. Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Andre Miller, and Jose Calderon look to pass first.
4) Over the last two or three years, teams have shied away from "potential". I think the Darko and Tskitishvili scared everyone to their senses.
5) I love college hoops, but more for the passion and drive of the fans and players and less for the quality of the basketball. There are way too many possessions in CBB where the ball doesn't enter the paint for 25-30 seconds, three's are too short (which is changing), and coaches are too powerful.

Hoosier Red
08-20-2008, 03:30 PM
The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.


As Team Selig pointed out, PG play, at least the elite PG's isn't dramatically different as far as pass first, shoot second. I think the pendulum swung first to the score first guards(the first generation to grow up with a three point shot in college and high school) and now has adapted back to good shooters who will pass and involve teammates.

As for the mid range jumper, I think your point about the weight room goes to this demise. Forwards are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than 10 years ago, unless everything is synched just right, the shot won't be open. If you're going to take a contested shot from 15 feet, you might as well spread the court out and take less contested ones from 3 point line and get an extra point for it.

It's a shame you haven't seen a full game since Jordan's retirement(his second retirement I assume.) I think the game played at it's highest level is actually better now than any time I've been alive.
Of course living in Indianapolis, I don't know what it's like for the game to be played at its highest level either.

bucksfan2
08-20-2008, 03:50 PM
As Team Selig pointed out, PG play, at least the elite PG's isn't dramatically different as far as pass first, shoot second. I think the pendulum swung first to the score first guards(the first generation to grow up with a three point shot in college and high school) and now has adapted back to good shooters who will pass and involve teammates.

As for the mid range jumper, I think your point about the weight room goes to this demise. Forwards are so much bigger, stronger and quicker than 10 years ago, unless everything is synched just right, the shot won't be open. If you're going to take a contested shot from 15 feet, you might as well spread the court out and take less contested ones from 3 point line and get an extra point for it.

It's a shame you haven't seen a full game since Jordan's retirement(his second retirement I assume.) I think the game played at it's highest level is actually better now than any time I've been alive.
Of course living in Indianapolis, I don't know what it's like for the game to be played at its highest level either.

Actually I believe it was his third. I watched him from time to time playing with the Wizards.

IMO the game is played so fundamentally unsound that it bothers me. I also think that the players are so much more athletic that enables the game to be played sloppier. I think one of the reasons I don't like the game is that they players are just that good. It might sound odd but that could contribute to it. I also like watching good offensive and defesive sets. The NBA is too much two man basketball. I hate cherry picking and not hustling up and down the court and you see way too much of that in the NBA until the playoffs.

I also think the fact that I grew up without a professional team in the city doesn't help. I love to watch D Wade play, but he didn't play much last season, and when he is playing balls to the wall it doesn't seem like the other player are. The talent is better in the NBA now more so than it every has been but I don't think the quailty of basketball is near what it was 10-15 years ago.

MasonBuzz3
08-20-2008, 04:00 PM
The defense that is played now is the worst I have ever seen. Outside of Bryant and Wade I wouldn't trust a defensive player on team USA. It would take a very good team to beat USA the way they are playing now but throw a Magic or Stockton on the court and the current team's gambles would be capitalized on over and over again.

I think another big change to the game today has been the weight room. Don't get me wrong, it was around in the early 90's, but not to the extent it is now. James and Howard are huge. Their strength can make for their lack of fundamentals. They are able to overpower most people in the league and maintain focus when they assume contact. A difference would be a guy like Malone who wouldn't be afraid to knock a player down. You go into the paint against a guy like Ewing or Malone and you will pay for it.

The shooter and the mid range game is a lost art. Why don't you see players like Bird in the league anymore? Jordon was great at hitting the mid range jumper. In today's game you hardly ever see set up inside the 3 point line but outside of the paint. It just doesn't happen. Prince and Rip Hamilton have made a living for the Pistons by hitting the mid range game.

The PG position has changed drastically. IMO Iverson changed the way the position was played. Gone are the days of Stockton and here are the days of Iverson. The PG psotion has become more flashy and more of a scoring position. Kidd is one of the last holdovers of the pass first shoot second PG.

Lack of development has hurt many of these players. Most of the best pro players spend less than a year in college basketball. Their fundamentals are unrefinded. Most of the 90 stars spend 3+ years in college. There has been a definate change in the way players are drafted now. Players are drafted more on potential right now.

I for one think the game was better during Jordan's hey day. Just a personal opinion. To be honest I haven't watched a complete NBA game since Jordan retired. I love watching college basketball but I can't get into the pro game anymore.

just a couple of things:
You might be watching a different team than I have seen. The only defensive liability on the team is Melo. Off of the top of my head; Lebron, Kobe, Bosh have been dominant on the defensive end.
On fundamentals, you mentioned Lebron and Howard. Remember those two players are 23 and 22, respectively. I would argue that Lebron is far more fundamentally sound than given credit for, but regardless they are both college age kids.
The mid-range game might not be as prevalent as it once was. But in the international game, where the US players are far more athletic and gifted, why shoot the 15 footer when you can get to the hoop for a higher percentage dunk or lay-up? Also with the shorter 3 point line, a 3 in the Olympics is almost a mid-range shot for the NBA players. Notice Kobe shooting from what seems to be Shanghai today.
The PG position has been covered already, so I'll move on to the drafting on potential leads to lack of fundamentals. I will not argue that many kids that come into the NBA early are not ready for that level of basketball. But take a look at Kobe or Lebron. What could they really have learned at a college that they haven't learned in the NBA? Would Lebron spending 3 years at Akron, OSU, or wherever really have made him any better? I'd say no, same for Kobe or Howard.

Anyways back to the Olympics, I am so excited to see the US go up against Ginobli and co in basically a Gold Medal game

Chip R
08-20-2008, 04:07 PM
IMO the game is played so fundamentally unsound that it bothers me. I also think that the players are so much more athletic that enables the game to be played sloppier. I think one of the reasons I don't like the game is that they players are just that good. It might sound odd but that could contribute to it. I also like watching good offensive and defesive sets. The NBA is too much two man basketball. I hate cherry picking and not hustling up and down the court and you see way too much of that in the NBA until the playoffs.



We may pine for the good fundamentals and all that stuff but if that was what people really wanted, they would show Ivy League games on ESPN instead of Duke-North Carolina. That's not to say that that kind of basketball can't be appreciated but the other end of the spectrum is what the people want.

bucksfan2
08-20-2008, 04:18 PM
We may pine for the good fundamentals and all that stuff but if that was what people really wanted, they would show Ivy League games on ESPN instead of Duke-North Carolina. That's not to say that that kind of basketball can't be appreciated but the other end of the spectrum is what the people want.

Actually as much as I dispise Duke, they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams out there.

improbus
08-20-2008, 04:20 PM
The difference is in the way defense is played. The pressure on the ball is very high and the players are bigger, quicker, and stronger than ever. It is hard to run those intricate sets when you have 6'7'' shooting guards with a 7'0'' wingspan getting in the way. It's hard to make those old school bounce passes around those guys.

Roy Tucker
08-20-2008, 04:21 PM
I, for one, think a USA '92 vs. USA '08 would be a heckuva game.

It's a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy about ESPN. Probably 90% of their highlights are dunks. People go "wooooo" for dunks. People smile and nod for a good backdoor cut and pass.

The game changed with the increased prevelance of the African-American athlete in hoops starting with Texas Western in '66.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 04:33 PM
Actually as much as I dispise Duke, they are one of the most fundamentally sound teams out there.


Yes, but I think my point still stands.

One factor that I think no one has brought up is the emergence of the shot clock. We've had the shot clock in college for about a generation now and a few years less than that for high school. You can't walk the ball up the court and wait for a minute or longer to get the perfect shot. By the time you get the ball to half court, in college you have around 25 seconds to shoot. In the pros, less than that.

ochre
08-20-2008, 05:15 PM
meh. The '08 team would roll them. Those guys on the '92 team are all like 50 years old and stuff.

TeamSelig
08-20-2008, 10:41 PM
A few things.
2) As far as knocking people down, the NBA will suspend people for anything. Remember McHale's clothesline of Kurt Rambis? That would have had McHale out of the next three games today and there would be an Outside the Lines special on violence in the NBA. So players today have to be careful.


Yep. Too many players getting hurt. They've done a pretty good job protecting players, but not to the point of babying them IMO. Just ask Lebron and the Wizards. He took a beating, but when it went too far, they were punished.

MasonBuzz3
08-22-2008, 02:03 AM
10:15 am EST for USA - Argentina
I personally am calling for a close 1st quarter, but the USA winning by 22-28 points. Ginobli will find out that this is a step up from the NBA

cumberlandreds
08-22-2008, 10:49 AM
10:15 am EST for USA - Argentina
I personally am calling for a close 1st quarter, but the USA winning by 22-28 points. Ginobli will find out that this is a step up from the NBA


The U.S. lead 30-11 after one. This is ovah! Spain will be the next and last victim.

improbus
08-22-2008, 10:51 AM
Carmelo is trying to get Argentina back into the game. I hope Ginobili is OK. As much as I hate the Spurs, I appreciate him.

reds44
08-22-2008, 10:55 AM
37-25 now

HumnHilghtFreel
08-22-2008, 10:57 AM
Please get Jason Kidd out of the game!

cumberlandreds
08-22-2008, 11:09 AM
I spoke too soon. Argentina is back in this one. Only down nine at the half. They had cut it to six.

cumberlandreds
08-22-2008, 11:50 AM
USA up 78-64 after three qtrs. Sounds like they have been coasting since the big start.

cumberlandreds
08-22-2008, 12:12 PM
USA wins 101-81. Spain is next for the Gold. US beat them by about 30 last weekend. I would expect the same sort of beating once again.

MasonBuzz3
08-23-2008, 11:11 PM
so who's staying up to watch the game tonight, or tomorrow morning really? I will be

Spain will try to pound the US down low with the Gasol bros, but the US will be too much for Spain once again. I would say USA by 20, but no Jose Calderon for ESP and this one could be very similar to the first meeting. Will be nice to have the Gold once again where it belongs

OldRightHander
08-23-2008, 11:52 PM
I'm going to try to stay up for it. I'm sitting in a motel room in Atlanta. What better do I have to do tonight?

GoReds33
08-24-2008, 12:45 AM
I'm going to try to stay up for it. I'm sitting in a motel room in Atlanta. What better do I have to do tonight?Sleep?;)

No, I'm kidding. I will try to stay up aswell.

OldRightHander
08-24-2008, 04:32 AM
I made it to the end. The Spaniards played an inspired game. I'm happy for the Americans but in a way it's a shame someone had to lose this game. Very entertaining.

improbus
08-24-2008, 07:55 PM
Chris Bosh is really good. He's one of those guys who you hear a ton about but never actually see play because his team gets no exposure. He is always in the right spot on offense. He fills the lane on fast breaks and is always waiting on the weak side for a pass on a drive. Just a great basketball player.

MasonBuzz3
08-24-2008, 09:48 PM
I was a bit wrong on my prediction, but Spain came out shooting the lights out. I thought the game had the feel of a Cinderella game in the NCAA tourny, with the underdog shooting like that. My only gripe about the game, and the Olympic tournament in general, is how inconsistent the officiating is for both teams. The Gold Medal game was a prime example. Having an official from Finland, is a bit like asking a LLWS volunteer ump call the World Series. These are elite, world-class professional basketball players and they should have officials that match that standard. But the USA is back

bucksfan
08-26-2008, 01:21 PM
I finally watched it Sunday evening after managing successfully to not learn the outcome the entire day. It was a very entertaining game. I don't know the SPain team tat well but it would have surprised me had Calderon been able to improve that guard play. Those guys did a nice job getting to where they wanted to be! But Team USA did a nice job and won the hard fought game. I really enjoyed seeing the emotion, encouragement, etc on the guys' faces throughtout the game and at the end.

improbus
08-27-2008, 07:44 PM
Rubio can't shoot a lick, but he can run a team and defend very well. He reminds me of Rondo without the ridiculous hops.

MasonBuzz3
08-27-2008, 10:15 PM
Rubio can't shoot a lick, but he can run a team and defend very well. He reminds me of Rondo without the ridiculous hops.

Remember Ricky is just 17, he has good shooting mechanics....very little wasted motion. He will be a bigger Steve Nash type PG. Make plays for others, get inside for teardrops, outside shot needs work and wont defend too well. He needs to get to the league so some of the NBA vets can knock his ego down a peg or two