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View Full Version : Is Votto just like the rest?



RedEye
08-01-2008, 07:04 PM
On the game thread, there was a discussion of Votto's current OPS (below .800) which led to this memorable quip from westofyou:


17 in his last 2 months.... that's over 200 PA's

Hal Morrisriffic

That got me thinking:

Dan Driessen... Nick Esasky... Todd Benzinger... Hal Morris... Sean Casey... Scott Hatteberg...

Joey Votto?

I really hope that The People's Champ doesn't end up mentioned in the same breath as all those other Post-Perez prototypes (good guys, decent hitters, little power). I kind of thought he would be different, and still think he could develop more power. But I'm starting to worry.

What say you?

Falls City Beer
08-01-2008, 07:05 PM
On the game thread, there was a discussion of Votto's current OPS (below .800) which led to this memorable quip from westofyou:



That got me thinking:

Dan Driessen... Nick Esasky... Todd Benzinger... Hal Morris... Sean Casey... Scott Hatteberg...

Joey Votto?

I really hope that The People's Champ doesn't end up mentioned in the same breath as all those other Post-Perez prototypes. I kind of thought and hoped he was different.

What say you?

He ain't Thome.

HokieRed
08-01-2008, 07:09 PM
He has, IMHO, simply got to hit for more power to be the first baseman in GABP. If you're going to play a power position in that ballpark, you've got to hit the ball out of the park. Reds' first basemen should hit 35+ homeruns a year from here on out.

Matt700wlw
08-01-2008, 07:12 PM
Don't know...he's not even been in the league for a year.

Hopefully it comes together for him

westofyou
08-01-2008, 07:13 PM
Dan Driessen... Nick Esasky... Todd Benzinger... Hal Morris... Sean Casey... Scott Hatteberg..

Jake Beckley, Jake Daubert, Wally Pipp, Frank Mccormick... The only time the Reds had a slugging 1st sacker was between 1953 and 1976.

As Pogo said.. I have met the enemy and he is us.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2008, 07:16 PM
Don't know...he's not even been in the league for a year.

Hopefully it comes together for him

Hitters develop power last, but a hitter's game is pretty much developed by Votto's age. Let's just hope and pray he's got a little strengthening to do. His size is definitely belied by his lack of pop.

Redmachine2003
08-01-2008, 07:16 PM
He has power one of his first homers this year he hit 450 ft to just left of center of the batters eye. He and Bruce have been in some kind of funk I don't know if it is adjustments they need to make or to much tinkering by the batting coach.

reds44
08-01-2008, 07:16 PM
Votto is more athletic than both Casey and Hatteberg. Votto is still young, we'll see what happens. He's never going to be be a slugger though.

BCubb2003
08-01-2008, 07:18 PM
It's an interesting question. If Dunn had moved to first, it would be moot. You could put Dave Parker in there, sort of. Maybe the Reds have not had enough sluggers in the first place, and have not moved the sluggers they did have to first. Maybe they couldn't afford to keep the top-dollar one-dimensional sluggers who usually end up at first. Or something else?

Chip R
08-01-2008, 07:18 PM
You mean he's not perfect as a rookie? Better get rid of him for a bag of balls.

KronoRed
08-01-2008, 07:19 PM
You mean he's not perfect as a rookie? Better get rid of him for a bag of balls.

Better be all stars or get out town :cool:

traderumor
08-01-2008, 07:21 PM
Votto is gap to gap like EE. Not sure if that is going to work unless the slack is picked up by the rest of the OF.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2008, 07:22 PM
Votto is gap to gap like EE. Not sure if that is going to work unless the slack is picked up by the rest of the OF.

Well said. And welcome back, tr. It's been awhile, no?

reds44
08-01-2008, 07:23 PM
Votto is gap to gap like EE. Not sure if that is going to work unless the slack is picked up by the rest of the OF.
Jerry Hairston is 3rd on the team in slugging. How we lookin?

BuckeyeRedleg
08-01-2008, 07:26 PM
There's hope for Votto if you use Connor Jackson as a comp.

Little power (32 HR's) and a .820 OPS over his first 2+ years.

Although he still is not hitting for much power (a very Votto like 12 HR), his OPS is carrying him in 2008 (.914).

I'd take that Sean Casey in his prime-like performance from Votto.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/J/Conor-Jackson.shtml

traderumor
08-01-2008, 07:28 PM
Well said. And welcome back, tr. It's been awhile, no?Thank you. Yea, took a long posting break, taking it all too seriously, been reading, just not posting 'til the last week or so.

Of course, I like grandstanding, so I staged it all to come back around the trade deadline ;)

Spring~Fields
08-01-2008, 07:29 PM
Too soon for me to tell, especially where he has been batting.


Votto
Three year (2005-2007)
vs. Left .269 .296 .346 .642
vs. Right .345 .387 .638 1.025

Batting #3 .280 .280 .640 .920
Batting #5 .250 .250 .250 .500
Batting #6 .286 .286 .286 .572
Batting #7 .333 .389 .515 .904
Batting #8 .667 .750 1.333 2.083

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=28670&type=batting3


Votto
2008
.275 .344 .447 .791

April .308 .341 .538 .879
May .281 .385 .528 .913
June .257 .315 .386 .701
July .261 .337 .352 .689

Pre-All Star .279 .350 .464 .814
Post-All Star .250 .308 .333 .641

Last 7 Days .318 .375 .409 .784

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=28670&type=batting&year=2008

2008 Team
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&order=false&season=2008&split=0&seasonType=2&type=reg

RedsManRick
08-01-2008, 07:31 PM
So far, Votto has shown a little more patience and a little less power than his weighted mean PECOTA.

It sees him in the .850-.900 OPS range over the next 5-7 years. I'm certainly not smarter than Nate Silver, so while I'm a bit disappointed with the power numbers from Votto this year, I'm still bullish.

Anybody who thought he was going to be a perennial all-star was misguided from the start. But he's 24 years old and still has an OPS north of .800 after 2 horrific months.

Here's one to try on for size. Strictly speaking in terms of offense, these two lines are pretty darn comparable. Yet nobody is worried that Phillips isn't going to pan out -- rather he's our everyday clean up hitter.

Brandon Phillips, 27: .279/.326/.462
Joey Votto, 24: .275/.344/.447

Obviously it's a much more valuable overall package when paired with GG defense at 2B rather than decent defense at 1B, but from the offensive perspective only, I don't see how we can be ready to give up on a guy before he's even had a full season of PA.

Falls City Beer
08-01-2008, 07:32 PM
So far, Votto has shown a little more patience and a little less power than his weighted mean PECOTA.

It sees him in the .850-.900 OPS range over the next 5-7 years. I'm certainly not smarter than Nate Silver, so while I'm a bit disappointed with the power numbers from Votto this year, I'm still bullish.

Anybody who thought he was going to be a perennial all-star was misguided from the start. But he's 24 years old and still has an OPS north of .800 after 2 horrific months.

Here's one to try on for size. Strictly speaking in terms of offense, these two lines are pretty darn comparable. Yet nobody is worried that Phillips isn't going to pan out -- rather he's our everyday clean up hitter.

Brandon Phillips, 27: .279/.326/.462
Joey Votto, 24: .275/.344/.447

Obviously it's a much more valuable overall package when paired with GG defense at 2B rather than decent defense at 1B, but from the offensive perspective only, I don't see how we can be ready to give up on a guy before he's even had a full season of PA.

I've always been less than bullish on Phillips' offense.

guttle11
08-01-2008, 07:33 PM
I don't see how we can be ready to give up on a guy before he's even had a full season of PA.

I can. People are fickle. A good August and Votto will be our future star again. Frankly, I'm shocked we haven't seen more Bruce chatter.

Youngins are fickle, too. Some will shatter the glass right away, some will chip away till it breaks, some will just dent it, and some will Brandon Larson their way to the Independent Leagues. Takes time for the fog to lift so we can see the results.

traderumor
08-01-2008, 07:33 PM
I would add in the current scheme of things, it is a travesty that Votto continues to hit in the bottom third of the lineup, with all the crap ABs provided by Patterson and Jr. in the top half for 2/3 of the season.

RedEye
08-01-2008, 07:40 PM
Just want to add that I've still got a lot of hope that Votto will be a middle-of-the-order type hitter for the Reds for a long time. I know we've still got a small sample size, but I thought it was at least worth discussing.

FWIW, my somewhat-educated guess is that Votto will end up a .280-.300, 25-30 HR type hitter but that he will maintain those numbers a bit longer than Casey did. Should be good for an All-Star appearance or two if he times it right, don't you think?

Falls City Beer
08-01-2008, 07:50 PM
Just want to add that I've still got a lot of hope that Votto will be a middle-of-the-order type hitter for the Reds for a long time. I know we've still got a small sample size, but I thought it was at least worth discussing.

FWIW, my somewhat-educated guess is that Votto will end up a .280-.300, 25-30 HR type hitter but that he will maintain those numbers a bit longer than Casey did. Should be good for an All-Star appearance or two if he times it right, don't you think?

He needs to start showing glimpses of it as early as next year. His salad days are right around the corner.

Rojo
08-01-2008, 07:53 PM
I'm not concerned. It takes all kinds of hitters.

RedEye
08-01-2008, 07:56 PM
He needs to start showing glimpses of it as early as next year. His salad days are right around the corner.

Salad days?

RedEye
08-01-2008, 07:57 PM
"Salad days" is an idiomatic expression, referring to a youthful time, accompanied by the inexperience, enthusiasm, idealism, innocence, or indiscretion that one associates with a young person. More modern use, especially in the United States, refers to a person's heyday when somebody was at the peak of his/her abilities—not necessarily in that person's youth.

Thanks, Wikipedia!

westofyou
08-01-2008, 07:57 PM
Salad days?

" My salad days, When I was green in judgment, cold in blood"

RedEye
08-01-2008, 07:58 PM
He needs to start showing glimpses of it as early as next year. His salad days are right around the corner.

And, FWIW, I agree with your assessment, FCB. At 25, his salad days are perhaps even now, and his age-27 breakout is coming soon.

BCubb2003
08-01-2008, 08:05 PM
The salad days come right before the gravy train.

Patrick Bateman
08-01-2008, 08:46 PM
I'm still quite high on Votto. There is no question that the last few months have been highly dissapointing, but I think he has a fair amount of room to grow both offensively and defensively. On defense he has the ability to make some really extraordinary plays as far as a first basemen goes, and makes blunders are the really routine plays. That should go away, it's not like Encarnacion's errant throws, it's been more mistakes on dumb stuff. Lately it really hasn't been a problem at all.

His recent offensive slide has been on the concerning side. I think it mostly stems from his plate discipline. From my eye's point of view, he's beeen swinging at pitches he really has had no business trying to handle, and hasn't been able to find the pitches that he can drive. I'm hopeful that's an experience issue, as Votto has always gotten lots of points for his work ethic and attention to detail on these sorts of things. The other thing is his power. He never had special type of power, and this year he should finish in the 20ish range, but I think his athletic build could lead to more in the future, settling in at 25-30, and I think most people would suggest the 30 is a tad optomostic.

There's no question that he was more impressive in the first portion of the season, but to reiterate, I think he'll improve more than most would at his age. Given time, I think he'll settle in as an .875 OPS, with well above average fielding. He'll have a really underrated package IMO.

princeton
08-01-2008, 08:48 PM
it's Cursed Base

put Adam Dunn there, and he'd be a singles hitter.

I blame Dave Revering

Votto will hit HRs, IMO.

BCubb2003
08-01-2008, 10:13 PM
Wasn't Votto to Jay Bruce as Kearns was to Dunn?

RedEye
08-01-2008, 10:21 PM
Wasn't Votto to Jay Bruce as Kearns was to Dunn?

Yes, I think Votto is Bruce's BFF.

Seriously though, I think we'll be fortunate if one of them turns into an Adam Dunn-level slugger. I think we're a bit spoiled in thinking that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. Sometimes anyway.

Joseph
08-01-2008, 10:39 PM
Yes, I think Votto is Bruce's BFF.

Seriously though, I think we'll be fortunate if one of them turns into an Adam Dunn-level slugger. I think we're a bit spoiled in thinking that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. Sometimes anyway.


I agree. I've been reading all these threads about what we need...a power hitting OFer with high level/GG defense....I defy anyone to name some that are easily available. People still want to trade our scraps for other teams stars and it just ain't happenin'.

D-Man
08-01-2008, 11:12 PM
I take a look at this guy's hit chart, and he looks like someone who will have pole-to-pole power someday. The Reds need more hitters like that.

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/individual_player_hitting_chart.jsp?c_id=cin&playerID=458015&statType=1

jojo
08-01-2008, 11:28 PM
So far, Votto has shown a little more patience and a little less power than his weighted mean PECOTA.

It sees him in the .850-.900 OPS range over the next 5-7 years. I'm certainly not smarter than Nate Silver, so while I'm a bit disappointed with the power numbers from Votto this year, I'm still bullish.

Anybody who thought he was going to be a perennial all-star was misguided from the start. But he's 24 years old and still has an OPS north of .800 after 2 horrific months.

Here's one to try on for size. Strictly speaking in terms of offense, these two lines are pretty darn comparable. Yet nobody is worried that Phillips isn't going to pan out -- rather he's our everyday clean up hitter.

Brandon Phillips, 27: .279/.326/.462
Joey Votto, 24: .275/.344/.447

Obviously it's a much more valuable overall package when paired with GG defense at 2B rather than decent defense at 1B, but from the offensive perspective only, I don't see how we can be ready to give up on a guy before he's even had a full season of PA.

Before the season he projected to ultimately be a slightly above average first baseman. I don't think there really is any reason to believe that's overly optimistic at this point.

Players are what they are, not what we wish they'd be. A slightly above average first baseman is a desirable thing I'd think.

coachw513
08-02-2008, 12:05 AM
Hitters develop power last, but a hitter's game is pretty much developed by Votto's age. Let's just hope and pray he's got a little strengthening to do. His size is definitely belied by his lack of pop.

Not necessarily disagreeing, but is this negated by his Canadian heritage, which I would assume means much less actual play due to weather, and certainly MANY less AB's against quality pitching???...so maybe he's 25 in age only, but much "younger" in terms of plate/power development???

Just a thought...

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 12:33 AM
Yes, I think Votto is Bruce's BFF.

Seriously though, I think we'll be fortunate if one of them turns into an Adam Dunn-level slugger. I think we're a bit spoiled in thinking that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. Sometimes anyway.

I don't know why people would think that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. The Reds have had only eight such specimens in their long history, and four of them were one-timers:

Ted Kluszewski (40 in 1953, 49 in '54, 47 in '55)
Wally Post (40 in 1955)
Johnny Bench (45 in 1970, 40 in '72)
Tony Perez (40 in 1970)
George Foster (52 in 1977, 40 in '78)
Greg Vaughn (45 in 1999)
Ken Griffey, Jr. (40 in 2000)
Adam Dunn (46 in 2004, 40 in '05, 40 in '06, 40 in '07, currently has 32 in '08)

LoganBuck
08-02-2008, 08:38 AM
I think the clock starts ticking on Votto's time in Cincy when Yonder Alonso signs.

camisadelgolf
08-02-2008, 09:06 AM
At the end of his career, I think he will have been slightly better than Sean Casey (whose career OPS is .818). Let's not forget that Votto is only 24 years old.

redsmetz
08-02-2008, 09:44 AM
I don't know why people would think that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. The Reds have had only eight such specimens in their long history, and four of them were one-timers:

Ted Kluszewski (40 in 1953, 49 in '54, 47 in '55)
Wally Post (40 in 1955)
Johnny Bench (45 in 1970, 40 in '72)
Tony Perez (40 in 1970)
George Foster (52 in 1977, 40 in '78)
Greg Vaughn (45 in 1999)
Ken Griffey, Jr. (40 in 2000)
Adam Dunn (46 in 2004, 40 in '05, 40 in '06, 40 in '07, currently has 32 in '08)

And in all the thousands of "player-seasons" since the beginning of the Ruth era (c. 1920), there have been less than 300 40+ HR seasons (292) - we've had 15, and Dunn and Big Klu account for almost half of them. The last decade may have made them look more commonplace, and they might be, but they weren't always that way.

BTW, Klu and Tony are the only 1st basemen on that list, but Perez played mostly 3rd base that season (153 games @ 3rd, 8 games @ 1st) - so really Klu is the only 1st basemen on that list

redsfan30
08-02-2008, 11:54 AM
The biggest thing that concerns me is Joey Votto takes alot of very bad swings.

Alot of them.

BCubb2003
08-02-2008, 12:02 PM
I think people thought more highly of Votto because he came up at the same time Bruce did, and the dynamic duo effect was in play. But there are some early threads in RedsZone that warned he wasn't the lock that people were making him out to be.

Far East
08-02-2008, 12:26 PM
The biggest thing that concerns me is Joey Votto takes alot of very bad swings.

Alot of them.
Many of those bad swings come when he has two strikes. That's when it looks like he can't quite decide on how aggressive/how defensive to be; perhaps there's a happy medium to be be found. Hope he finds it.

RedEye
08-02-2008, 01:14 PM
I don't know why people would think that 40 HR guys grow on trees around here. The Reds have had only eight such specimens in their long history, and four of them were one-timers:

Ted Kluszewski (40 in 1953, 49 in '54, 47 in '55)
Wally Post (40 in 1955)
Johnny Bench (45 in 1970, 40 in '72)
Tony Perez (40 in 1970)
George Foster (52 in 1977, 40 in '78)
Greg Vaughn (45 in 1999)
Ken Griffey, Jr. (40 in 2000)
Adam Dunn (46 in 2004, 40 in '05, 40 in '06, 40 in '07, currently has 32 in '08)

Yes, that's my point. I'm just saying that with the way people talk about Adam Dunn much of the time, you would think that 40-HR OF grow on trees (when they obviously don't).

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2008, 01:14 PM
I don't think anyone ever expected Votto to develop into a superstar but I do think he can and will develop into an .875 OPS hitter with 25 homeruns a year. Most of Votto's power is to left center right now, if he can learn to pull the ball a little more we could see a spike in his power and maybe he'll become a consistent 25-30 homerun guy. As for his defense, I think he's got the potential to be an above average first baseman defensively. He makes all the tough plays but the easy ones give him trouble. With coaching and experience those problems should fade away IMO.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 01:18 PM
And in all the thousands of "player-seasons" since the beginning of the Ruth era (c. 1920), there have been less than 300 40+ HR seasons (292) - we've had 15, and Dunn and Big Klu account for almost half of them. The last decade may have made them look more commonplace, and they might be, but they weren't always that way.

BTW, Klu and Tony are the only 1st basemen on that list, but Perez played mostly 3rd base that season (153 games @ 3rd, 8 games @ 1st) - so really Klu is the only 1st basemen on that list

Additionally, the Reds have had 15 40+ HR seasons, but only six 41+ HR seasons.

Kc61
08-02-2008, 01:19 PM
I don't think anyone ever expected Votto to develop into a superstar but I do think he can and will develop into an .875 OPS hitter with 25 homeruns a year. Most of Votto's power is to left center right now, if he can learn to pull the ball a little more we could see a spike in his power and maybe he'll become a consistent 25-30 homerun guy. As for his defense, I think he's got the potential to be an above average first baseman defensively. He makes all the tough plays but the easy ones give him trouble. With coaching and experience those problems should fade away IMO.

Yes, and even if he doesn't hit for too much power, the Reds won a World Championship in 1990 with Todd Benzinger and Hal Morris at first. Neither was a power guy.

Votto looks like a potentially solid hitter. He probably won't hit for as much power as Bruce will, but Votto will probably K less and be a solid contributor on offense.

Everyone's been asking for the young people to come play for the team, but when they do it takes awhile for them to adjust. What we are seeing this year from Bruce, Votto and Cueto should be expected. All of them look like they will be very good players in time.

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 01:25 PM
Before the season he projected to ultimately be a slightly above average first baseman. I don't think there really is any reason to believe that's overly optimistic at this point.

Players are what they are, not what we wish they'd be. A slightly above average first baseman is a desirable thing I'd think.

Exactly. My point is that the growing overreacted to his last two months is unfounded. He was never expected to be a .900 OPS guy out of the gate, if at all. His ultimate projection hasn't changed at all.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 02:48 PM
Exactly. My point is that the growing overreacted to his last two months is unfounded. He was never expected to be a .900 OPS guy out of the gate, if at all. His ultimate projection hasn't changed at all.

I think .850 is about his ceiling. Trouble is, he's nowhere near that.

We'll see. He's not an albatross, but he's heading into Casey Kotchman land. Time to buff up.

RedEye
08-02-2008, 03:01 PM
Yes, and even if he doesn't hit for too much power, the Reds won a World Championship in 1990 with Todd Benzinger and Hal Morris at first. Neither was a power guy.

I never said the Reds can't win without a power-hitting first baseman. I'm just curious whether they'll ever have one.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 03:08 PM
I think .850 is about his ceiling. Trouble is, he's nowhere near that.

We'll see. He's not an albatross, but he's heading into Casey Kotchman land. Time to buff up.

Well look what some batters become over night if they have a Kinsler, Young type in front of them and a Bradley type behind them or a Rodriguez, Buhner, Martinez for that matter.

Some of the outstanding that have become outstanding have had outstanding surrounding them.

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 03:09 PM
I think .850 is about his ceiling. Trouble is, he's nowhere near that.

We'll see. He's not an albatross, but he's heading into Casey Kotchman land. Time to buff up.

He's 24 and it's been four months. Kotchman is a full year ahead of Votto in terms of both age and AB. Let's give him one full year in the majors before we start questioning his ability to reach his potential.

PECOTA sees Votto as an .875 guy, so it's not like you guys disagree. It's just way too early to start changing that projection.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 03:22 PM
The biggest thing that concerns me is Joey Votto takes alot of very bad swings.

Alot of them.

With the more "aggressive approach" many of the Reds batters do.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=strikeouts&season=2008&split=0&seasonType=2&type=reg

redsmetz
08-02-2008, 04:25 PM
Additionally, the Reds have had 15 40+ HR seasons, but only six 41+ HR seasons.

Logically, Big Klu would know that. I hadn't caught that at all, but you're absolutely right.

4256 Hits
08-02-2008, 06:59 PM
I think the clock starts ticking on Votto's time in Cincy when Yonder Alonso signs.

What makes you think Alonso is going to sign? There are only 12 days left to sign and even if he does sign; this year will do little for his development.

camisadelgolf
08-03-2008, 09:28 AM
What makes you think Alonso is going to sign? There are only 12 days left to sign and even if he does sign; this year will do little for his development.

Pretty much every report on the situation claims he'll sign around the deadline.

4256 Hits
08-03-2008, 02:32 PM
Pretty much every report on the situation claims he'll sign around the deadline.

Thanks! I hope they are right but it does make me wonder then why not get it done a month/week/day ago when he could have used that time to develop.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2008, 02:34 PM
First-round pick Yonder Alonso is the only Miami player yet to sign, but sources indicate a deal with the Reds likely will get done by the August 15 deadline.

http://collegebaseball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=830827

BuckeyeRedleg
08-03-2008, 02:39 PM
Guy at work is a casual fan of the Reds. He asked me about Joey Votto before the season. I told him that he was a decent prospect, but would never hit for a ton of power (for a 1B) and to expect a ceiling of .300 with 20-25 HR's.

He approached me the day Votto hit 3 HR's and laughed in my face telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about.

HokieRed
08-03-2008, 05:08 PM
Having watched the Reds games pitch-by-pitch the last three days, I've come to the conclusion we really only have two position players worth keeping on a really good team and the better of those two right now is Votto.

missionhockey21
08-03-2008, 05:33 PM
Three days against one of the worst teams in recent memory, the Nationals, have made you go from this last week (the 27th):

"We have a young first baseman who has not demonstrated the ability to hit enough for that position...."

To thinking he is more valuable than a guy like Dunn or Bruce potentially (as I don't know your other player.) You don't think this is a slight over-reaction to again, the Nationals? I like Votto a lot too, but let's not put too much into one series.... a lot of folks did this after his three homerun game and were turning on him due to a much longer slump.

fearofpopvol1
08-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Votto looked awfully good today to me.

Baseball seasons are 162 games. Slumps are inevitable. His numbers are not that bad at all for a rookie who costs the Reds almost nothing financially.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2008, 07:10 PM
Votto has looked very comfortable in the two hole the last two games. He hit a 3-run double last night that missed being a grand slam by a foot and then today he launced a homerun to dead center and singled twice. I like him and Bruce batting 2/3. Hopefully they stay there all season.

kaldaniels
08-03-2008, 07:19 PM
Having watched the Reds games pitch-by-pitch the last three days, I've come to the conclusion we really only have two position players worth keeping on a really good team and the better of those two right now is Votto.

Dunn. EE. Phillips. Bruce.

Arguments can be made on each one of those players of course. But to suggest just one of those 4 players is worth keeping (I don't know which one you are referring to)...I just can't agree with that.

klw
08-03-2008, 07:32 PM
Saw the title of the thread and could not help but think of this lyric.


Remember all the movies, Terry, we'd go see
Trying to learn how to walk like the heroes we thought we had to be
Well after all this time to find we're just like all the rest
Stranded in the park and forced to confess
To hiding on the backstreets, hiding on the backstreets
Well we swore forever friends, hey!
On the backstreets until the end

HokieRed
08-03-2008, 08:02 PM
It's obviously Bruce that's worth keeping, and I think he's a better prospect than Votto in the medium run. Dunn I'd like to keep, too, but the Reds cannot afford to. They need to use the money that would go to him to plug more than one hole. This is a very bad team. The weekend series suggests just how bad it is. Phillips cost the team the game last night and it could be argued made the two key offensive blunders of the game today, killing one rally by being picked off second and the other by hitting into a DP. I've no problem with Phillips if we had a realistic assessment of him. He's a slightly above average second baseman who should be hitting about 7th on a good team. Frankly I think he'll cost way more money than we should spend on a second baseman and, since he has some value, he's be one guy I'd be looking to move. Ditto for EE. I've been a big fan of Edwin's for the past several years, but I think it's hard to ignore the fact he is just not developing into anything like a consistent hitter. He's going to have really good streaks and really bad stretches and play below average defense. Discussions about how this team is close to competing are, IMHO, just laughable. This team will likely finish last this year and quite probably next, unless Jocketty can work some kind of miracles in the offseason. Right now it looks to me like you've got two position players for next year--Votto and Bruce. You can't afford Dunn and if you're going to get anything--assuming you don't want to trade Harang, Volquez, or Cueto--you'd better consider moving Phillips and EE.

cincrazy
08-03-2008, 09:13 PM
It's obviously Bruce that's worth keeping, and I think he's a better prospect than Votto in the medium run. Dunn I'd like to keep, too, but the Reds cannot afford to. They need to use the money that would go to him to plug more than one hole. This is a very bad team. The weekend series suggests just how bad it is. Phillips cost the team the game last night and it could be argued made the two key offensive blunders of the game today, killing one rally by being picked off second and the other by hitting into a DP. I've no problem with Phillips if we had a realistic assessment of him. He's a slightly above average second baseman who should be hitting about 7th on a good team. Frankly I think he'll cost way more money than we should spend on a second baseman and, since he has some value, he's be one guy I'd be looking to move. Ditto for EE. I've been a big fan of Edwin's for the past several years, but I think it's hard to ignore the fact he is just not developing into anything like a consistent hitter. He's going to have really good streaks and really bad stretches and play below average defense. Discussions about how this team is close to competing are, IMHO, just laughable. This team will likely finish last this year and quite probably next, unless Jocketty can work some kind of miracles in the offseason. Right now it looks to me like you've got two position players for next year--Votto and Bruce. You can't afford Dunn and if you're going to get anything--assuming you don't want to trade Harang, Volquez, or Cueto--you'd better consider moving Phillips and EE.

Phillips is hardly "slightly above average"... I have to disagree with you big time on that one

Always Red
08-03-2008, 09:23 PM
Saw the title of the thread and could not help but think of this lyric.


Remember all the movies, Terry, we'd go see
Trying to learn how to walk like the heroes we thought we had to be
Well after all this time to find we're just like all the rest
Stranded in the park and forced to confess
To hiding on the backstreets, hiding on the backstreets
Well we swore forever friends, hey!
On the backstreets until the end

http://www.saintsforsinners.com/images/backstreets_cover.jpg

WebScorpion
08-04-2008, 11:28 AM
He's just a placeholder for Alonso, so what does it matter? WHAT!? He hasn't signed??? Uhoh... :D