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harangatang
08-02-2008, 12:54 AM
Did anyone else hear on FSN when Grande was talking about a pregame interview with Jocketty where Bruce is going to be in the 3 hole in the lineup the rest of the year? I aaw some rambles about Bruce being in the 3 hole in the Game Thread after a check of it but nothing associated with WJ.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2008, 01:24 AM
That's a good move IMO. Yeah he's struggling right now but most rookies do. A-Rod was awful his first 300 atbats in the majors. Evan Longoria struggled earlier this year. He's still showing the talent to be one of the best players in this game for a long time. His future is as a number three hitter and batting him there now is a smart move as it will allowed him to get settled in to one spot instead of getting switched all around like he was before the Griffey trade.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 09:41 AM
Bruce's future spot in the lineup will be determined by how well he is able to get on base. Right now the Reds lineup is full of guys who would bat 6, 7 or 8 on most teams.

Screwball
08-02-2008, 10:44 AM
Bruce's future spot in the lineup will be determined by how well he is able to get on base. Right now the Reds lineup is full of guys who would bat 6, 7 or 8 on most teams.

Nah, it'll be based on what position he plays, dude.

[/Dusty Baker]

puca
08-02-2008, 11:00 AM
Nah, it'll be based on what position he plays, dude.

[/Dusty Baker]

It is amusing that the everyday RF is still batting third.

But I also think it is the right place for Bruce.

Far East
08-02-2008, 11:10 AM
Has Jocketty, himself, decided that Bruce will hit third or is he merely passing along information about Baker's decision?

If Walt is controlling the batting order, let's hope that he never allows Dusty to bat Patterson at lead off again.

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 11:17 AM
Far East's got a good question. Is it just my imagination or has WJ started to sound a little bit more lately like somebody making some judgments that were earlier going strictly to Baker? Is WJ taking a little more control at all levels?

oneupper
08-02-2008, 11:20 AM
There are advantages to a set lineup, but I really dislike the notion that players "own" certain slots in the batting order, the way they "own" positions on the field.

If that's going to be the effect, mix it up.

Team Clark
08-02-2008, 01:03 PM
Has Jocketty, himself, decided that Bruce will hit third or is he merely passing along information about Baker's decision?

If Walt is controlling the batting order, let's hope that he never allows Dusty to bat Patterson at lead off again.

I have an inkling that it was Walt's call. He's probably seen enough.

VR
08-02-2008, 01:11 PM
We know have a permanent #3 hitter whose OPS against lefties is .508, and a permanent #4 hitter whose OPS against righties is .660.

Why does it have to be so difficult to put people in positions to succeed? why?

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Why does it have to be so difficult to put people in positions to succeed? why?

Let's face it. Every single hitter in this lineup has a pretty huge deficiency of some kind or other. There are no Albert Pujolses or Chipper Joneses to plunk down in the 2/3 slots.

No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.

Jpup
08-02-2008, 01:44 PM
Jocketty did not say that. He said that Dusty has him in the 3 hole for "tonight". He did say that he expected that to be the outfield alignment for the rest of the year.

VR
08-02-2008, 01:52 PM
Let's face it. Every single hitter in this lineup has a pretty huge deficiency of some kind or other. There are no Albert Pujolses or Chipper Joneses to plunk down in the 2/3 slots.

No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.

You've nailed it. Which is why you customize the lineup based on players situational strengths....not just broad brush with the same lineup vs. who-cares-who's-pitching.
Kepp w/ a sub .600 ops vs. righties, yet hitting 2nd, is another millstone.
The Reds vs. lefties could put together a pretty mean lineup, yet the continue to go .950/.550/.900/.500/.980/.485 as a lineup. How in the world can you expect any kind of consistent offense?

The top 5 lineup spots have been butchered all year by the Duster.

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 02:17 PM
Let's face it. Every single hitter in this lineup has a pretty huge deficiency of some kind or other. There are no Albert Pujolses or Chipper Joneses to plunk down in the 2/3 slots.

No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.

Good point, FCB. This is a lineup that requires some massaging to squeeze out the run production. Unfortunately, Dusty is take the brute force approach, pretending that a bunch of guys are somebody else, sticking them in spots that don't fit their actual abilities, and hoping that they live up to his imagination.

Dunn may not be an ideal #3 guy. EE might not be your idea of a #2. But Dusty manages by attaching guys to archetypes and then managing those archetypes, blind to the gross inefficiencies it causes.

SMcGavin
08-02-2008, 02:18 PM
No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.

Dunn-Encarnacion-Votto would be a significantly better than average middle of the order. For comparison's sake:

2008 NL Average 3-4-5: 843-843-814
Dunn-EdE-Votto: 949-834-788

Considering the ages of that group are 28-25-24, and that this group doesn't even include Jay Bruce, I'm not really worried about our middle of the lineup production over the next few seasons. FWIW Phillips would be hitting 2nd or 6th in this hypothetical lineup, and he's 30 points above league average at either spot.

Far East
08-02-2008, 02:19 PM
Let's face it. Every single hitter in this lineup has a pretty huge deficiency of some kind or other. There are no Albert Pujolses or Chipper Joneses to plunk down in the 2/3 slots.

No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.
I realize that this thread is primarily about Bruce's growth opportunity through the remainer of '08, but just out of curiosity, I plugged in Reds' current OBP and SLG at baseballmusings.com. It produced the following "best" lineup, scoring an average of 5.340 runs per game:

Harriston
Dunn
Keppinger
Encarnacion
Votto
Phillips
Bruce
Pitcher
Ross

Recall that in several old threads how positions 1, 2, 4, & 5 are filled early; the last spot to be entered is #3 with whoever is left over that does not fit the criteria for any other slot.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 02:25 PM
FWIW, I think Bruce will become a middle of the order hitter, so I have no real issues with hitting him there right now. What I'd like to see most in the lineup is Dunn flip-flopped with Phillips.

Hairston
Keppinger/Votto
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Encarnacion
Votto/Kepp
Catcher
Pitcher

That would be my lineup for the remainder of the season.

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 02:29 PM
I'd really like to see Phillips handled more appropriately given his sustained massive platoon split(+.359 in '08, +.178 career). It's pretty incredible, but against lefties he's an all-star while against righties he's replacement level -- for his career. Bat him 2nd against lefties and 6th or 7th against righties. Just flip him and Votto for all I'm concerned.

Hairston
Phillips/Votto
Bruce
Dunn
EE
Votto/Phillips
Keppinger
Ross
Pitcher

Of course, I'd bring up Dickerson, start him in CF batting 7th with Keppinger leading off. But it's been made clear that's not going to happen.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 02:32 PM
I think Dickerson will have most folks longing for Brandon Larson.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:34 PM
FWIW, I think Bruce will become a middle of the order hitter, so I have no real issues with hitting him there right now. What I'd like to see most in the lineup is Dunn flip-flopped with Phillips.

Hairston
Keppinger/Votto
Bruce
Dunn
Phillips
Encarnacion
Votto/Kepp
Catcher
Pitcher

That would be my lineup for the remainder of the season.

I like it. A lot. I have thought for some time that Phillips is best suited for the #5 spot--it would allow him to utilize his power to drive in the runners ahead of him, and it would unleash him on the basepaths, as the Reds should be willing to take more chances with the running game with the lower part of the lineup hitting behind him.

Any preference on Keppinger vs. Votto for the #2 and #7 spots? Just wondering what you're thinking on that.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:35 PM
I think Dickerson will have most folks longing for Brandon Larson.

I have a feeling that Chris Dickerson is Reggie Taylor redux.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 02:36 PM
Did anyone else hear on FSN when Grande was talking about a pregame interview with Jocketty where Bruce is going to be in the 3 hole in the lineup the rest of the year? I aaw some rambles about Bruce being in the 3 hole in the Game Thread after a check of it but nothing associated with WJ.

So is Jocketty going to be batting Dunn, and Encarncion behind him, and maybe Votto and Hairston in front of him? Are they going to surround him with the Reds better batters?

Hairston
Votto
Bruce
Dunn
Encarncion
Phillips

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 02:38 PM
I like it. A lot. I have thought for some time that Phillips is best suited for the #5 spot--it would allow him to utilize his power to drive in the runners ahead of him, and it would unleash him on the basepaths, as the Reds should be willing to take more chances with the running game with the lower part of the lineup hitting behind him.

Any preference on Keppinger vs. Votto for the #2 and #7 spots? Just wondering what you're thinking on that.

Kepp at 2 against lefties.
Votto at 2 against righties.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:40 PM
Kepp at 2 against lefties.
Votto at 2 against righties.

I would concur with that.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2008, 02:41 PM
I have a feeling that Chris Dickerson is Reggie Taylor redux.

Maybe so but Reggie Taylor couldn't take a walk to save his life whereas Dickerson has a great eye at the plate.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 02:43 PM
Good point, FCB. This is a lineup that requires some massaging to squeeze out the run production. Unfortunately, Dusty is take the brute force approach, pretending that a bunch of guys are somebody else, sticking them in spots that don't fit their actual abilities, and hoping that they live up to his imagination.

Dunn may not be an ideal #3 guy. EE might not be your idea of a #2. But Dusty manages by attaching guys to archetypes and then managing those archetypes, blind to the gross inefficiencies it causes.


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 02:47 PM
I think Dickerson will have most folks longing for Brandon Larson.

Well, let's give him the chance to fail. I think you're probably right in that he's not going to stick. But let's learn that now -- not next year. Unlike Larson, Dickerson could provide value with his glove even if his bat isn't there. Even if he's just Corey Patterson with a little more plate discipline, there's no harm in sending CPatt packing and getting him up here.

The idea that Jerry Hairston is part of the future is extremely misguided, IMO. His LD% and subsequent BABIP will undoubtedly regress. He's not a bad guy to have around, but he is who he is -- and that's not a MLB starter.

We'd be better off using the remainder of the season to get some insight in to whether or not Dickerson will be a contributor.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 02:53 PM
Bring Dickerson up in September. The young pitchers are going to need all the offense they can get in the last couple of months.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:54 PM
Well, let's give him the chance to fail. I think you're probably right, he's not going to stick. But let's learn that now -- not next year.

The idea that Jerry Hairston is part of the future is extremely misguided, IMO. His LD% and subsequent BABIP will undoubtedly regress. He's not a bad guy to have around, but he is who he is.

We'd be better off using the remainder of the season to get some insight in to whether or not Dickerson will be a contributor.

Walt has seen Dickerson play, and I'm sure he receives regular reports on how the players in the minors are progressing. Sure, I wouldn't mind seeing Dickerson first-hand, but maybe the Reds' FO have already seen all they need to see in order to make their decision.

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 02:55 PM
Bring Dickerson up in September. The young pitchers are going to need all the offense they can get in the last couple of months.

One could make the same argument about better defense and there's no doubt Dickerson would be an upgrade over Hairston in that regard. Better defense = more outs = fewer pitches. That's more important to me than getting them good run support.

Big Klu
08-02-2008, 02:58 PM
Bring Dickerson up in September. The young pitchers are going to need all the offense they can get in the last couple of months.

I think that would be reasonable. It gives him a cup of coffee, and allows everyone to see how he reacts to being on the big stage. Until then, he continues to get regular PT at Louisville.

I think he probably projects to being a fifth OF and defensive specialist.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 03:02 PM
One could make the same argument about better defense and there's no doubt Dickerson would be an upgrade over Hairston in that regard. Better defense = more outs = fewer pitches. That's more important to me than getting them good run support.

If that's the case, then play Patterson in CF every day and bat him eighth.

But you know and I know that's not a good move. This team just lost its third-best offensive player; somehow they're going to need to replace that offense in the last two months.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 03:28 PM
If that's the case, then play Patterson in CF every day and bat him eighth.

But you know and I know that's not a good move. This team just lost its third-best offensive player; somehow they're going to need to replace that offense in the last two months.

Do you want Patterson around next year under the pretense of or as being a defensive replacement? Caveat emptor !

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 03:42 PM
If that's the case, then play Patterson in CF every day and bat him eighth.

But you know and I know that's not a good move. This team just lost its third-best offensive player; somehow they're going to need to replace that offense in the last two months.

I agree FCB. The problem is in assuming that Jerry Hairston is the guy to do it. The reality is that we don't have that guy and we just have to live with it. This season is gone; we might as well make good use of the games we've got left.

The Marcel projection for Hairston, which takes what he's done so far this year and regresses it back towards his historical performance (weighted by recency) sees Hairston putting up a .253/.316/.366 line from here on out. And given that it looks like he's got lingering hammy issues, that conversation may be moot anyways.

In any case, if Patterson is your best option on the roster now, why not go with Dickerson instead? Sure, he may not be any better, but he's comparable defensively, so you don't lose that side benefit. And at least there's hope for upside for a guy who could be on the roster next year.

At his age, we don't need to worry about protection his options. Even if he's no better than Patterson, I'd rather find that out now than have him be one of many options fighting for the job next spring.

Far East
08-02-2008, 05:10 PM
If that's the case, then play Patterson in CF every day and bat him eighth...
Some of Dickerson's numbers at Louisville:

2B:13
3B:9
HR:11
BB:51
SO:93
SB:24
CS:7
OBP:.381
SLG:.482

If Walt would steal a page from what Bowden has done recently with the promotion of youngsters at Washington, Dickerson would be getting some PT right now!

But first you have to recognize that the 2008 season is done.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 05:35 PM
I agree FCB. The problem is in assuming that Jerry Hairston is the guy to do it. The reality is that we don't have that guy and we just have to live with it. This season is gone; we might as well make good use of the games we've got left.

The Marcel projection for Hairston, which takes what he's done so far this year and regresses it back towards his historical performance (weighted by recency) sees Hairston putting up a .253/.316/.366 line from here on out. And given that it looks like he's got lingering hammy issues, that conversation may be moot anyways.

In any case, if Patterson is your best option on the roster now, why not go with Dickerson instead? Sure, he may not be any better, but he's comparable defensively, so you don't lose that side benefit. And at least there's hope for upside for a guy who could be on the roster next year.

At his age, we don't need to worry about protection his options. Even if he's no better than Patterson, I'd rather find that out now than have him be one of many options fighting for the job next spring.

I'm assuming you'd DFA Patterson? Though they may not need to if Hairston goes on the DL again.

hebroncougar
08-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Dunn-Encarnacion-Votto would be a significantly better than average middle of the order. For comparison's sake:

2008 NL Average 3-4-5: 843-843-814
Dunn-EdE-Votto: 949-834-788

Considering the ages of that group are 28-25-24, and that this group doesn't even include Jay Bruce, I'm not really worried about our middle of the lineup production over the next few seasons. FWIW Phillips would be hitting 2nd or 6th in this hypothetical lineup, and he's 30 points above league average at either spot.

The problem being, can the guy who makes out the lineup card put them in the middle of the lineup?

GAC
08-02-2008, 09:08 PM
Bruce's future spot in the lineup will be determined by how well he is able to get on base.

Not with Dusty it won't be. ;)

GAC
08-02-2008, 09:11 PM
Some of Dickerson's numbers at Louisville:

2B:13
3B:9
HR:11
BB:51
SO:93
SB:24
CS:7
OBP:.381
SLG:.482

If Walt would steal a page from what Bowden has done recently with the promotion of youngsters at Washington, Dickerson would be getting some PT right now!

But first you have to recognize that the 2008 season is done.

I tend to agree.

I was talking with another member yesterday, and he believes, and I concur, that Cast/Walt want to get this team to .500 or above in '08 just so they can then say "the losing has stopped". ;)

RedsManRick
08-02-2008, 09:41 PM
I'm assuming you'd DFA Patterson? Though they may not need to if Hairston goes on the DL again.

Nope. We're too shallow in the OF. I'd send down or DFA either Valentin or A. Phillips.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2008, 01:01 AM
So far Bruce is 3-for-8 with two homeruns since moving to the three hole permanently (hopefully).

GAC
08-03-2008, 07:29 AM
So far Bruce is 3-for-8 with two homeruns since moving to the three hole permanently (hopefully).

That proves very little. ;)

KronoRed
08-03-2008, 11:43 AM
I tend to agree.

I was talking with another member yesterday, and he believes, and I concur, that Cast/Walt want to get this team to .500 or above in '08 just so they can then say "the losing has stopped". ;)

Just like it stopped 2 years ago.

Happy Days are here again! :D

REDREAD
08-04-2008, 10:36 AM
I think Dickerson will have most folks longing for Brandon Larson.

I think you are right.

Given the current depth of the team, I see no reason to cut Patterson (as is frequently lobbied). Patterson is not great, but he's much better than I expect Dickerson to be. Obviously, the Reds' brass agree.

REDREAD
08-04-2008, 10:38 AM
One could make the same argument about better defense and there's no doubt Dickerson would be an upgrade over Hairston in that regard. Better defense = more outs = fewer pitches. That's more important to me than getting them good run support.

I really question whether Dickerson could outhit Patterson. I'm sure he will not have Patterson's power. Remember Anderson Machado? He had a decent walk rate in the minors, but he was so overmatched at the major league level, his eye did not help.

nate
08-04-2008, 10:54 AM
I really question whether Dickerson could outhit Patterson. I'm sure he will not have Patterson's power. Remember Anderson Machado? He had a decent walk rate in the minors, but he was so overmatched at the major league level, his eye did not help.

It didn't? Andy Machado's career IsoD in a whopping 68 big league ABs is .112. In the minors, .106 (3316 ABs). Yeah, he was overmatched; he's always been a bad hitter.

Dickerson isn't great but he might park his OBP above the .300 mark. Corey Patterson: confidence is low.

Love CPatt's glove, he's awesome in the field. However, I hear Dickerson is as good if not better.

I don't think Dickerson is a great solution, he's just a less bad and cheaper solution. I'd like to see him out there for the rest of the year.

WebScorpion
08-04-2008, 11:02 AM
I disagree with releasing Corey Patterson. But I don't see anything wrong with bringing up Dickerson to see what he can do. He should at least rate a September callup. :thumbup:

NJReds
08-04-2008, 11:02 AM
I really question whether Dickerson could outhit Patterson. I'm sure he will not have Patterson's power. Remember Anderson Machado? He had a decent walk rate in the minors, but he was so overmatched at the major league level, his eye did not help.

Might as well find out what he can do now, when it's obvious that this team won't win anything. Major League at bats in August and September will tell a lot more than a few spring training ABs.

M2
08-04-2008, 11:02 AM
I really question whether Dickerson could outhit Patterson. I'm sure he will not have Patterson's power.

Why not take the next two months to find out?

BRM
08-04-2008, 11:03 AM
Why not take the next two months to find out?

Because the Reds are trying to "win as many games as possible".

KronoRed
08-04-2008, 12:27 PM
Because the Reds are trying to "win as many games as possible".

Indeed, same song and dance we are all used to, like Madonna before she went nuts.

Matt700wlw
08-04-2008, 12:31 PM
Because the Reds are trying to "win as many games as possible".

That's going well...

Chip R
08-04-2008, 12:38 PM
Just like it stopped 2 years ago.

Happy Days are here again! :D


http://inspireaction.mindandmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/fonzie.jpg

Danny Serafini
08-04-2008, 03:41 PM
Apparently those home runs weren't impressive enough. Bruce got dropped down to 7th today. He's also in center, with Cabrera starting in right and batting 6th.

Raisor
08-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Apparently those home runs weren't impressive enough. Bruce got dropped down to 7th today. He's also in center, with Cabrera starting in right and batting 6th.

Fay...

Jeff Keppinger ss

Joey Votto 1b

Edwin Encarnacion 3b

Brandon Phillips 3b

Adam Dunn lf

Jolbert Cabrera rf

Jay Bruce cf

David Ross c

Bronson Arroyo p

vs. LH Manny Parra

Dunn did not win player of the month for July. Ryan Braun did. Dunn hit .310 with 12 homers and 26 RBI. Braun hit .366 with nine homers and 23 RBI.

RedsManRick
08-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Why keep Votto in the 2 spot but drop Bruce? Just move EE up to 2 and bat Dunn 3rd. Dusty isn't even consistent with himself. I think he makes up different logic every day.

LvJ
08-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Jolbert Cabrera ahead of Bruce and Ross?

Uhm..... wtf?

Matt700wlw
08-04-2008, 03:50 PM
So Dusty is going against what his GM said....

Patrick Bateman
08-04-2008, 03:55 PM
Well I assume it's because Bruce hasn't hit lefties worth crap since day 1 in the majors. Not that Cabrera really has any right batting in front of anybody, but Bruce has zero business taking up a key spot vs. lefties right now. I expect he'll be back at third against righties, with 2 distinct sets of line-ups based on the handedness of the opposing pitcher, as they should.

RichRed
08-04-2008, 03:56 PM
Jolbert Cabrera ahead of Bruce and Ross?

Uhm..... wtf?

Gotta break up those lefties, dude!

(Except in the 3-4 spots, apparently.)

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2008, 03:57 PM
Apparently those home runs weren't impressive enough. Bruce got dropped down to 7th today. He's also in center, with Cabrera starting in right and batting 6th.

Unbelievable.

flyer85
08-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Jay has a sub 500 OPS against LHPs, he should be nowhere near the top the order.

TRF
08-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Let's face it. Every single hitter in this lineup has a pretty huge deficiency of some kind or other. There are no Albert Pujolses or Chipper Joneses to plunk down in the 2/3 slots.

No one except Dunn is a middle of the order hitter on this team.

EE would be the next closest, miles ahead of BP, Votto or Bruce at this point.

RichRed
08-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Well I assume it's because Bruce hasn't hit lefties worth crap since day 1 in the majors. Not that Cabrera really has any right batting in front of anybody, but Bruce has zero business taking up a key spot vs. lefties right now. I expect he'll be back at third against righties, with 2 distinct sets of line-ups based on the handedness of the opposing pitcher, as they should.

Except that Phillips bats cleanup against righties and lefties, despite his uselessness against righties. Just a consistent philosophy would be a welcome change, even if it's one that flies in the face of reason.

Patrick Bateman
08-04-2008, 04:02 PM
Except that Phillips bats cleanup against righties and lefties, despite his uselessness against righties. Just a consistent philosophy would be a welcome change, even if it's one that flies in the face of reason.

Well would you prefer him be consistently dumb?

Also, as bad as Phillips is vs. righties, he still beats Bruce vs. lefties. His righthanded line-up needs some changes too, but Bruce shouldn't even be in the conversation for third spot in that line-up until he proves he can hit lefties to some degree.

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2008, 04:03 PM
Jay has a sub 500 OPS against LHPs, he should be nowhere near the top the order.

If the Reds were fighting for a playoff spot I'd agree, but with the team ten games under .500 what's it going to hurt to let Jay hit higher in the order? It hasn't stopped Dusty from batting Phillips 4th against RHP or Griffey third against left handers.

Patrick Bateman
08-04-2008, 04:08 PM
If the Reds were fighting for a playoff spot I'd agree, but with the team ten games under .500 what's it going to hurt to let Jay hit higher in the order? It hasn't stopped Dusty from batting Phillips 4th against RHP or Griffey third against left handers.

I'd prefer Bruce not get preferential treatment because of who he is. Bruce gets the same opportunity to get his at-bats in, but he shouldn't get a key spot in the order over people who deserve it. Bruce's development isn't going to fasten based on his spot in the order. Players' batting spot should be based on their relative merits. Baker gets a lot of these wrong, but he's right on this one.

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2008, 04:14 PM
I know there aren't a ton of great left handers in the minors but Bruce destroyed lefties this season with a 1.071 OPS in 54 atbats in AAA. He also crushed lefties when he first came up and then went through that awful slump which skewed his numbers a bit. I think he'll eventually handle lefties just fine.

flyer85
08-04-2008, 04:15 PM
Just an example of why Dusty needs to be the manager of a plug-n-play team. He deferred to Jr long after it was obvious he was not a 3 hole hitter and he keeps Phillips batting 4th against RHPs and yet drops other guys when they struggle(Dunn spent some time batting 6th and 7th).

Bruce deserves to be hitting down there but Dusty seems a bit schizophrenic in how he applies criteria to players. I have my theory on some of it by ain't going there.

Patrick Bateman
08-04-2008, 04:20 PM
I know there aren't a ton of great left handers in the minors but Bruce destroyed lefties this season with a 1.071 OPS in 54 atbats in AAA. He also crushed lefties when he first came up and then went through that awful slump which skewed his numbers a bit. I think he'll eventually handle lefties just fine.

I don't doubt his future skills to hit them, but as a major leaguer, he has been an automatic out against them. That outweighs the good stuff he did in the minors at this point. It's not a permanent spot on the order, if he shows he can hit them, move him up. Until then, I'd rather let guys who crush lefties (Phillips and EE) take up the key slots in the order. It's not like Bruce's development will suffer because of the line-up slot he's in.

Screwball
08-04-2008, 04:21 PM
I have my theory on some of it by ain't going there.

I think I know what you mean and it's crossed my mind as well. Not going there is a wise decision.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 04:22 PM
Apparently those home runs weren't impressive enough. Bruce got dropped down to 7th today. He's also in center, with Cabrera starting in right and batting 6th.

Bruce is hitting .188/.258/.238 versus lefties. Honestly.

I think Dusty is playing it correct, for once.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 04:25 PM
I think I know what you mean and it's crossed my mind as well. Not going there is a wise decision.

You can either go there or you can go the non-rookie route.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 06:14 PM
So Dusty is going against what his GM said....



Vs. Left
Jeff Keppinger ss .438 .529 .966
Joey Votto 1b .358 .463 .820
Edwin Encarn3b .429 .505 .934
Brandon Phillips 2b .387 .636 1.023
Adam Dunn lf .385 .441 .826
Jolbert Cabrera rf .500 1.500 2.000
Jay Bruce cf .258 .238 .496
David Ross c .370 .293 .663

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&season=2008&split=31&seasonType=2&type=reg

WVRedsFan
08-04-2008, 06:30 PM
Vs. Left
Jeff Keppinger ss .438 .529 .966
Joey Votto 1b .358 .463 .820
Edwin Encarn3b .429 .505 .934
Brandon Phillips 2b .387 .636 1.023
Adam Dunn lf .385 .441 .826
Jolbert Cabrera rf .500 1.500 2.000
Jay Bruce cf .258 .238 .496
David Ross c .370 .293 .663

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&season=2008&split=31&seasonType=2&type=reg

Those stats on Cabrera just goes to show you what small sample size is.

OPS at 2.000?

VR
08-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Glad to see he has the senses to move Bruce against lefties....hopefully he'll do the same w/ Kepp and Phillips vs. righties.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 06:49 PM
Those stats on Cabrera just goes to show you what small sample size is.

OPS at 2.000?

Sure that is true, I just put them together in a hurry and assumed that everone would know that Cabrera was some very small sample. I thought if I left it blank someone would say, so why didn't you put Cabrera's numbers in there.

Hey at least Dusty showed us that he knows how to put up a lineup against LH or RH, wonder if he just learned that. :lol:

OnBaseMachine
08-05-2008, 12:54 AM
Bruce to bat in the No. 3 spot more often
With Griffey gone, young star moves to prime hitting slot
By Justice B. Hill / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- Manager Dusty Baker knows where he wants to see Jay Bruce hit in the Reds lineup, and with the trade of Ken Griffey Jr. last week, Baker plans to pencil Bruce's name into the No. 3 hole.

Most nights, that is.

Baker put Bruce in the No. 7 slot in the Reds order Monday, mostly because of Brewers left-hander Manny Parra, who's the devil himself against left-handed hitters. But Bruce should be back at No. 3 on Tuesday.

And that's fine with Bruce.

"Yeah, that's the most comfortable position that I hit," Bruce said. "That's where I hit in the Minor Leagues. That's where I hit my whole life, basically."

Since he's been back in the No. 3 hole the past few games, Bruce said he's become more comfortable. He said he's ready for the demands that come with hitting there.

In fact, he said he welcomes them.

What he welcomes even more, though, is the confidence that Baker is showing by putting a young hitter in one of the prime spots in the batting order.

"It's good to see confidence any time," Bruce said. "For me to know that he has confidence in his player is pretty reassuring. It's not just me; it's confidence in everybody.

"I mean, I'm excited for it; I'm ready for it."

For Bruce, hitting third in the Majors is just another one of the lessons a five-tool rookie must master. The learning has its ups and downs, a point that Bruce easily acknowledges.

Playing well in the big leagues -- and hitting third in the Reds lineup -- requires adjustments. A player's success from yesterday isn't guaranteed to be his success of today, particularly at the plate.

Bruce called it a giant cat-and-mouse game that he must play with pitchers and their fielders.

"You really have to make adjustments," he said of hitting well in the Major Leagues. "It's really whoever makes adjustments quicker are going to be the people that are far more successful."

So far, Bruce has adjusted well -- to batting third in the lineup or to whatever else Baker has asked of him.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080804&content_id=3252379&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin