PDA

View Full Version : Students of Pitching



texasdave
08-02-2008, 11:48 AM
I readily admit I am not a student of the finer points of pitching. But look at this picture from cincinnatireds.com.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/index.jsp?c_id=cin

Don't most pitchers keep their eyes on the target, especially this far along in their pitching motion? Homer is about ready to let the pitch fly and it seems to me that he is looking upward. The camera angle could be a bit deceptive, but it really doesn't look as if he is focused on the batter (or the catcher's mitt). Is this unusual? Maybe this would help explain his lack of control. Is he looking at his grip on the ball? Maybe he sees a UFO? Someone from the upper deck waving at him is a possibility? I simply am not certain.

Griffey012
08-02-2008, 12:11 PM
nice catch there dave, yeah it looks like he is just kinda flailing his body out there. Whenever I personally have pitched I have always had my eyes glued on the catcher. Some pitchers such as Okajima do weird things with their heads, but I believe nearly all pitchers are looking towards home when the ball is near the release point. What is really odd is that he is looking towards his hand, his eyes should at least be directed towards home.

ChatterRed
08-02-2008, 12:11 PM
Maybe he's looking to the heavens for help.

improbus
08-02-2008, 12:42 PM
Ala Nuke Laloosh? Should we call him meat?

captainmorgan07
08-02-2008, 12:45 PM
Baileys mechanics might not be perfect but their far more smoother than they used to be. Before everything was flailing everywhere which caused most of his problems. Now it's a repeatable delivery. He's just missing the corners which causes everything to be over the middle of the plate.

Southpaw
08-02-2008, 01:33 PM
He's always looked up right before he releases the ball. Don't know why though.

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/images/uploads/bailey_homer-matrix.jpg

http://images.redreporter.com/images/admin/homer_bailey_82906.jpg

kpresidente
08-02-2008, 03:51 PM
When you look at the target isn't an important aspect of pitching mechanics. You might try changing that with a guy who's having control problems, but it'd just be a guess. It's just something that different guys will have different preference with.

Bailey's problem is that he doesn't get enough movement on his fastball. He supposedly throws a two-seamer, but you couldn't tell. It just looks like a slower version of the four-seam.

You can't pitch in the majors without movement on your pitches. Flat out. Fast and flat is the easiest pitch to hit, and that's what Homer throws. The fact that he can't hit his spots exacerbates the problem because now he's getting those meatballs out over the plate.

He's got to get something out of his two-seam fastball or he'll never amount to anything, even if he develops better control. I'd send him back to Louisville and have him try a cut-fastball. It's an easy pitch to learn because it's all grip. If you throw hard enough, it'll come in on LH batters, who are murdering him with a .698 SLG. He's got to get the ball away from the fat part of their bats.

He's also having issues with command of his off-speed pitches, but my guess is that's mental. He had it when he was younger, and you don't lose command unless you're thinking too much. He needs a stint in the bullpen, where he can just go out and "throw" for a while. That'll take care of that.

Griffey012
08-02-2008, 06:13 PM
When you look at the target isn't an important aspect of pitching mechanics. You might try changing that with a guy who's having control problems, but it'd just be a guess. It's just something that different guys will have different preference with.

Bailey's problem is that he doesn't get enough movement on his fastball. He supposedly throws a two-seamer, but you couldn't tell. It just looks like a slower version of the four-seam.

You can't pitch in the majors without movement on your pitches. Flat out. Fast and flat is the easiest pitch to hit, and that's what Homer throws. The fact that he can't hit his spots exacerbates the problem because now he's getting those meatballs out over the plate.

He's got to get something out of his two-seam fastball or he'll never amount to anything, even if he develops better control. I'd send him back to Louisville and have him try a cut-fastball. It's an easy pitch to learn because it's all grip. If you throw hard enough, it'll come in on LH batters, who are murdering him with a .698 SLG. He's got to get the ball away from the fat part of their bats.

He's also having issues with command of his off-speed pitches, but my guess is that's mental. He had it when he was younger, and you don't lose command unless you're thinking too much. He needs a stint in the bullpen, where he can just go out and "throw" for a while. That'll take care of that.

His 2 seam fastball was moving pretty well last night, he just had no location on it, and his change is awful.

nemesis
08-02-2008, 08:09 PM
When you have a pitching coach who couldn't pitch well himself, in th edead ball era, in his 6-year career went 25-37, 5.05 in 122 apps, including 77 starts, how in the hell does anyone in the Reds front office expect him to teach anyone to pitch effectivly? I have never ever got that.

The worry was he would mess up Volquez and Cueto much like he did Prior and Wood. Instead Harang gets all out of whack, Fogg who you could pencil in for 175 and 10 wins looks like a BP pitcher, Belisle regresses and Bailey looks mor like Tim Pugh than Tim Hudson. I have always found it queer that when Soto comes around Cueto and Vol-K's improve for a strech. When Pole gets his grubby hands on them they regress.

THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHANGE WE NEED IN THE OFFSEASON IS A NEW PITCHING COACH AND HITTING COACH. The team is hitting .247!!!! No way no how do they keep these clowns if Jocketty has a f'n pair.

kpresidente
08-02-2008, 11:56 PM
When you have a pitching coach who couldn't pitch well himself, in th edead ball era, in his 6-year career went 25-37, 5.05 in 122 apps, including 77 starts, how in the hell does anyone in the Reds front office expect him to teach anyone to pitch effectivly? I have never ever got that.


Leo Mazzone never even made it to the majors. Guess he doesn't know anything either.

Stephenk29
08-03-2008, 01:48 AM
When you have a pitching coach who couldn't pitch well himself, in th edead ball era, in his 6-year career went 25-37, 5.05 in 122 apps, including 77 starts, how in the hell does anyone in the Reds front office expect him to teach anyone to pitch effectivly? I have never ever got that.

The worry was he would mess up Volquez and Cueto much like he did Prior and Wood. Instead Harang gets all out of whack, Fogg who you could pencil in for 175 and 10 wins looks like a BP pitcher, Belisle regresses and Bailey looks mor like Tim Pugh than Tim Hudson. I have always found it queer that when Soto comes around Cueto and Vol-K's improve for a strech. When Pole gets his grubby hands on them they regress.

THE SINGLE BIGGEST CHANGE WE NEED IN THE OFFSEASON IS A NEW PITCHING COACH AND HITTING COACH. The team is hitting .247!!!! No way no how do they keep these clowns if Jocketty has a f'n pair.

It takes knowledge and talent to make it to the major and be good. Just because he never amounted to anything doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.

kpresidente
08-03-2008, 11:41 AM
When you have a pitching coach who couldn't pitch well himself, in th edead ball era

The dead ball era was pre-Babe Ruth, 30 years before Dick Pole was born.

Also, the league ERA when Pole pitched was around 4.00, a whole 0.24 lower than it is this year, which is about the same as the difference between this year and last year.

But don't let that stand in the way of your hyperbole.

nemesis
08-03-2008, 02:06 PM
Leo Mazzone never even made it to the majors. Guess he doesn't know anything either.

Well it was not hard to look like a genius when you have 3 hall of famers on your staff. How did he do in Baltimore? Excluding the big 3 how many great pitchers did he develop? Um. None. Always thought he was a product of the talent not the talent was a product of him.

nemesis
08-03-2008, 02:13 PM
The dead ball era was pre-Babe Ruth, 30 years before Dick Pole was born.

Also, the league ERA when Pole pitched was around 4.00, a whole 0.24 lower than it is this year, which is about the same as the difference between this year and last year.

But don't let that stand in the way of your hyperbole.

Name one great pitcher he's developed... Now name how many great pitchers who have had injuries or screwed up mechanics under him. Do you think he's doing the job he's paid to do well? Harang, Bailey, Arroyo, Belisle all have regressed as pitchers under his watch. Thompson as been injury free for 2 years makes 3 starts up here and his shoulder albeit one that has bothered him before starts hurting again. At the time of year Cueto and Vol-k's should be progressing, both are now regressing. Come on.

nemesis
08-03-2008, 02:17 PM
It takes knowledge and talent to make it to the major and be good. Just because he never amounted to anything doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about.


He knows more about pitching obviously that a big majority of people on this earth. Doesn't mean he is qualified. I'd be all for Ted Power getting a look as a pitching coach. It seems we have been a little better at developing arms in the minors since he came into the system. If we are going to build our rotation around the kids, and I hope we do, Ted has worked with most of them throught their carrers and might be a little better at managing them.

Griffey012
08-03-2008, 04:18 PM
Name one great pitcher he's developed... Now name how many great pitchers who have had injuries or screwed up mechanics under him. Do you think he's doing the job he's paid to do well? Harang, Bailey, Arroyo, Belisle all have regressed as pitchers under his watch. Thompson as been injury free for 2 years makes 3 starts up here and his shoulder albeit one that has bothered him before starts hurting again. At the time of year Cueto and Vol-k's should be progressing, both are now regressing. Come on.

Volquez should be progressing? Did you see his first have numbers. The only thing he can do is regress. And it is both of their first full seasons in the big's its not gonna be all gravy all the time.

But once again, lets blame everybody else for our bad team, except for the bad team itself.

nemesis
08-03-2008, 05:25 PM
Volquez should be progressing? Did you see his first have numbers. The only thing he can do is regress. And it is both of their first full seasons in the big's its not gonna be all gravy all the time.

But once again, lets blame everybody else for our bad team, except for the bad team itself.

Your right. This team is severly under performing. But it is the JOB of the Coaches, specifically Duhhsty, Pole and Jacoby to pull the best out of the players. Has Jacoby made our hitters better? Bruce was on fire outta Louisville Jacoby works on him now he is a totally different looking hitter at the plate. The highest everyday player batting avg was .279 by Votto who is a ROOKIE.

BTY OT but have you ever noticed how much DUHHsty drops Hank Aaron's name in conversations but yet I cannot ever remeber Hank saying DUHHsty's.

Hank Aaron, Dusty original man crush.

Fon Duc Tow
08-03-2008, 06:22 PM
Name one great pitcher he's developed... Now name how many great pitchers who have had injuries or screwed up mechanics under him. Do you think he's doing the job he's paid to do well? Harang, Bailey, Arroyo, Belisle all have regressed as pitchers under his watch. Thompson as been injury free for 2 years makes 3 starts up here and his shoulder albeit one that has bothered him before starts hurting again. At the time of year Cueto and Vol-k's should be progressing, both are now regressing. Come on.


Don't forget what happens to our pitchers once they finally get out from under Dick Pole's watch. Cough...Kyle Loshe...

I agree...the pitching coach and hitting coach both need to be canned as soon as the last game is played. Maybe sooner?

Griffey012
08-03-2008, 06:29 PM
Don't forget what happens to our pitchers once they finally get out from under Dick Pole's watch. Cough...Kyle Loshe...

I agree...the pitching coach and hitting coach both need to be canned as soon as the last game is played. Maybe sooner?

Kyle Lohse went to Dave Duncan who is the best in the business. Just take a look at Jeff Weaver. You can't blame Dick Pole for that.

However I am not defending Dick Pole, I think he sucks, I think the hitting coach sucks. Well at least I want to think they suck and they are part of the problem. My fear is that it is just the players themselves, and regardless of the coach they aren't going to make any significant change. Especially from the hitting aspect.