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Red in Chicago
08-02-2008, 07:31 PM
Reds
Keppinger ss
Votto 1b
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Dunn lf
Encarnacion 3b
Patterson cf
Bako c
Fogg p

Nats
Bonifacio 2b
Harris 3b
Milledge cf
Kearns rf
Flores c
Casto 1b
Gonzales ss
Langerhanns lf
Bergmann p

Red in Chicago
08-02-2008, 08:03 PM
It's very hard to get excited about a lineup that has Patterson, Bako and Fogg in it on a Saturday evening.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:10 PM
6 on 9 game.

VR
08-02-2008, 08:19 PM
It's very hard to get excited about a lineup that has Patterson, Bako and Fogg in it on a Saturday evening.

You need to add Kepp as leadoff (.279 obp vs. righties) to that list.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:19 PM
2nd and 3rd with 2 out and Dunn tries to check his swing and grounds out first to pitcher.

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 08:23 PM
Serrious breakdown of the getem on, getem over and getem in school of thought there.

nate
08-02-2008, 08:25 PM
Chat is open!

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:30 PM
Fogg pitching batting practice.

VR
08-02-2008, 08:33 PM
The Reds are making me excited about Olympics next week. Ouch.

KittyDuran
08-02-2008, 08:35 PM
The Reds are making me excited about Olympics next week. Ouch.Yeah, I heard that they're in a Fogg as well. ;)

VR
08-02-2008, 08:43 PM
Part of Patterson's glistening OBP of .166 over the last three months includes 0 walks over those 130 ab's. April 28th was his last, and it was also his 8th for the month of April.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:46 PM
Votto finally hitting where he should drives in two. 3-2.Reds

VR
08-02-2008, 08:48 PM
Votto finally hitting where he should drives in two. 3-2.Reds

"It got to the wall right now" MB

Good for Joey, hopefully he takes a hold of this opportunity to hit 2nd...it seems to be an ideal spot for his game.

Kc61
08-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Jay Bruce is going to be something. Home run.

VR
08-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Ken who?

:)

5-2 rojo's on Bruce's 2nd homer in 2 nights.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:50 PM
Bruce doing his best Griffey imitation. 5-2 Reds.

Reds hitting the ball hard, two off the wall and jus missing going out.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 08:55 PM
we need a shortstop. bad.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 08:55 PM
top of the 2nd was a nice example of being patient and waiting for the pitcher to make a mistake ... instead of hacking at the first thing close and getting yourself out

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 09:00 PM
top of the 2nd was a nice example of being patient and waiting for the pitcher to make a mistake ... instead of hacking at the first thing close and getting yourself out

Holy crap...Votto and Bruce higher up in the order resulting in runs. Whoda thunk it.

Agreed on the patient approach. I posted in chat that I hoped they'd ignore the Dusty "be agressive" mantra on those at bats.

Kc61
08-02-2008, 09:01 PM
we need a shortstop. bad.

Kepp is in a bit of a fielding slump. I don't think he's been the same player since his injury. Still, he's probably better as a platoon player or a super sub. He's not a top defensive shortstop.

But we shouldn't forget how consistent Kepp was at the plate last year and in the first half of this year. Also shouldn't forget that Kepp is a fill-in at short. There's a guy named AGon who supposedly owns the position. Kepp ain't bad as an injury fill-in.

Next year, if the Reds have Kepp, Hairston and perhaps a similarly versatile lefty hitter, the team could be in good shape off the bench.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 09:02 PM
Holy crap...Votto and Bruce higher up in the order resulting in runs. Whoda thunk it.

Agreed on the patient approach. I posted in chat that I hoped they'd ignore the Dusty "be agressive" mantra on those at bats.

Come on...Votto and Bruce have been anything but forcing Baker's hand lately. In fact, Bruce has been flat out Coreylike since he burst on the scene. .665 OPS in July, which was significantly higher than June.

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 09:03 PM
Come on...Votto and Bruce have been anything but forcing Baker's hand lately. In fact, Bruce has been flat out Coreylike since he burst on the scene. .665 OPS in July, which was significantly higher than June.

Yea, they suck. Better trade them fast.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:08 PM
Holy crap...Votto and Bruce higher up in the order resulting in runs. Whoda thunk it.



Just think we could have been watching that all year if better thinking would have prevailed.

VR
08-02-2008, 09:10 PM
Patterson now .107 over his last 80 at bats. :KoolAid:

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:11 PM
Come on...Votto and Bruce have been anything but forcing Baker's hand lately. In fact, Bruce has been flat out Coreylike since he burst on the scene. .665 OPS in July, which was significantly higher than June.

Yeah, since spring training, both Corey and Jay tanked when forced to hit lead off, well, Corey since his Chicago days.

VR
08-02-2008, 09:11 PM
I sure hope they can get the Rockies to bite on Fogg.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 09:12 PM
Patterson now .107 over his last 80 at bats. :KoolAid:
We got a bonus when Bako hit earlier. Other than that, no hits from the 7-8-9 hitters tonight.

Now Josh Fogg walks two in a row, proving he's 6th starter in a 5 man rotation. Homer is 7th. We have problems with our starters.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:14 PM
What a throw by Patterson................

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 09:17 PM
Yea, they suck. Better trade them fast.

Never said that. But I doubt that this team's offense would have been materially better if they would have been hitting higher in the order.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:18 PM
Washington Inning Summary

- A. Kearns struck out looking
- J. Flores walked
- K. Casto walked, J. Flores to second
- A. Gonzalez singled to center, J. Flores out at home, K. Casto to third
- R. Langerhans struck out swinging
- End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

Tom Servo
08-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Fogg's mustache!

CTA513
08-02-2008, 09:21 PM
Fogg walked on 4 pitches.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:23 PM
Votto hitting the ball hard tonight.

Cincinnati Inning Summary

- P. Bako grounded out to first
- J. Fogg walked
- J. Keppinger flied out to right
- J. Votto flied out to deep center
- End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

nate
08-02-2008, 09:24 PM
Never said that. But I doubt that this team's offense would have been materially better if they would have been hitting higher in the order.

Maybe. But it wouldn't have been worse if it had been "optimized" and the manager squeezed every last ounce of production from it. Heck, it might've garnered the Reds a few more wins.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 09:30 PM
Fogg on a roll, 3 up 3 down.

Washington Inning Summary

- J. Bergmann struck out looking
- E. Bonifacio grounded out to first
- W. Harris flied out to center
- End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 09:34 PM
Fogg has 86 pitches through 4 innings. Get the bullpen ready.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 09:35 PM
Maybe. But it wouldn't have been worse if it had been "optimized" and the manager squeezed every last ounce of production from it. Heck, it might've garnered the Reds a few more wins.

Not disagreeing with that. Dusty has struggled with his lineup construction, but I put the blame in that regard on both him and the FO in that regard. The FO hired the guy and knew exactly what his history was. They did nothing to stop him.

At the start of the year, I compared the hiring to the hiring of a convicted thief to work as a cashier. Sure the blame goes to the thief after he steals from the register, but how can't you put some blame on the one who made the decision to hire him? And, when he starts to show the same tendencies that got him in trouble in the first place, how don't you sit him down and do something about it? It looks like Walt has done something about it. Nice to see.

But bottom line, Votto and Bruce didn't "deserve" to be moved up in the order by any stretch. In fact, I am sure that Baker would have heard it from the board if he hit Bruce 3rd while he was pulling a Patterson for 2 straight months.

Always Red
08-02-2008, 09:37 PM
This just in:

Josh Fogg can pitch. Certainly not a great pitcher, but definitely an MLB #5/LR type.

But even better- Joey Votto and Jay Bruce can hit. We can look forward to the future!

nate
08-02-2008, 09:40 PM
Not disagreeing with that. Dusty has struggled with his lineup construction, but I put the blame in that regard on both him and the FO in that regard. The FO hired the guy and knew exactly what his history was. They did nothing to stop him.

I'm talking about lineup vs. roster constuction.


But bottom line, Votto and Bruce didn't "deserve" to be moved up in the order by any stretch. In fact, I am sure that Baker would have heard it from the board if he hit Bruce 3rd while he was pulling a Patterson for 2 straight months.

No chance they would've performed differently in different lineup spots? I mean, didn't Dusty have a heart to heart with Bruce about taking more pitches upon being given the RF, I mean, 3-spot in the lineup?

CTA513
08-02-2008, 09:48 PM
Patterson up to .185 after reaching on a bunt single and going to 3rd on a throwing error.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 09:50 PM
No chance they would've performed differently in different lineup spots? I mean, didn't Dusty have a heart to heart with Bruce about taking more pitches upon being given the RF, I mean, 3-spot in the lineup?

Sure, they could have performed better. But I guess they could have performed worse as well if they were in different lineup spots. Bottom line is that they have been less than spectacular for the better part of the season. And in Bruce's case, much less. But they deserve to be here and they need to be playing everyday. Maybe even hitting in the front of the lineup to get them more exposure.

But let's not go crazy and say that it would have made this team (and them) perform better.

nate
08-02-2008, 09:54 PM
Sure, they could have performed better. But I guess they could have performed worse as well if they were in different lineup spots. Bottom line is that they have been less than spectacular for the better part of the season. And in Bruce's case, much less. But they deserve to be here and they need to be playing everyday. Maybe even hitting in the front of the lineup to get them more exposure.

But let's not go crazy and say that it would have made this team (and them) perform better.

Scoring more runs isn't better?

Will M
08-02-2008, 09:54 PM
This just in:

Josh Fogg can pitch. Certainly not a great pitcher, but definitely an MLB #5/LR type.

But even better- Joey Votto and Jay Bruce can hit. We can look forward to the future!

i suspect the reds kept fogg as we weren't offered much for him and he does give us innings. we don't want to hurt any of our good pitchers just to save $200K and get an A ball 'prospect' . this is Cueto and Volquez's first full year in the bigs, plus harang will be on a short leash the rest of the way

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 09:56 PM
In fact, I am sure that Baker would have heard it from the board if he hit Bruce 3rd while he was pulling a Patterson for 2 straight months.

Stats YTD



YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAP
2008 Jay Bruce 245 .250 .318 .418 2.1 -4.8
2008 Corey Patterson 221 .187 .216 .322 -13.7 -18.7

Compared to their production for the past 2 months. Bruce is certinally struggling, but to say he was "pulling a Patterson" is nowhere near accurate. You can keep saying it over and over but it bears no resemblence to reality.



Bruce

Month AB HR BA OBP SLG OPS
June 103 3 .223 .274 .340 .614
July 99 3 .253 .282 .384 .666


Patterson

Month AB HR BA OBP SLG OPS
June 45 2 .156 .156 .311 .467
July 18 0 .111 .158 .111 .269

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:01 PM
Bill Bray should NEVER come in when hitters are on base.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:02 PM
Scoring more runs isn't better?

IF they scored more runs, it wouldn't be enough to make a difference. I can't see how Bruce's .630sish OPS would have made this team materially better by giving him more at bats.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 10:03 PM
Ugh. Bill Bray = confusing. His numbers are good, but he can get hit soooo hard (regardless of what the stat freaks say).

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:03 PM
Ugh. Bill Bray = confusing. His numbers are good, but he can get hit soooo hared (regardless of what the stat freaks say).

His numbers are *deceiving.*

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:05 PM
Compared to their production for the past 2 months. Bruce is certinally struggling, but to say he was "pulling a Patterson" is nowhere near accurate. You can keep saying it over and over but it bears no resemblence to reality.

I didn't say "pulling a Patterson from the last 2 months". I said "pulling a Patterson". Check out what Corey has done over his career. He has played longer than June and July of 2008.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:05 PM
His numbers are *deceiving.*

No, he is going to make everything alright.

Hopefully.

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 10:05 PM
I'm not at all persuaded yet that Bray is part of this team's future. I watched him pitch Dukes and Belliard. I just don't see much except a fastball without much movement he tries to locate, not terribly well. Sorry to say it.

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 10:06 PM
Scoring more runs isn't better?

No kidding.


Month AB BA OPS SLG OPS
April 78 .308 .341 .538 .879
May 89 .281 .385 .528 .913

That's Votto's numbers from April and May.

Sure woulda hated to have more at bats like that at the begining of the season. No way it would have helped the offense. Nope.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:09 PM
I'm not at all persuaded yet that Bray is part of this team's future. I watched him pitch Dukes and Belliard. I just don't see much except a fastball without much movement he tries to locate, not terribly well. Sorry to say it.

He's 25, battled injuries, and yet has a very good ERA and K rate for each of the first three months. He's a setup man, and the best the Reds have seen in years.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:11 PM
Former Red Charlie Manning? For heaven's sake, Bowden has got some kind of fascination. I wonder if he has a lockerroom video feed in his office.

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 10:11 PM
I didn't say "pulling a Patterson from the last 2 months". I said "pulling a Patterson".


In fact, I am sure that Baker would have heard it from the board if he hit Bruce 3rd while he was pulling a Patterson for 2 straight months.

Never let details get in the way of a good rant.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:11 PM
He's 25, battled injuries, and yet has a very good ERA and K rate for each of the first three months. He's a setup man, and the best the Reds have seen in years.

Burton is the best setup man in years. Bray is a guarantee to let runners on base score.

nate
08-02-2008, 10:12 PM
IF they scored more runs, it wouldn't be enough to make a difference. I can't see how Bruce's .630sish OPS would have made this team materially better by giving him more at bats.

Bruce's OPS on the year is .736.

Patterson's OPS requires characters that aren't available on this laptop.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:16 PM
Burton is the best setup man in years. Bray is a guarantee to let runners on base score.

at what rate?


Good problem to have, figuring out which young middle reliever is best for the Reds.

reds44
08-02-2008, 10:19 PM
at what rate?


Good problem to have, figuring out which young middle reliever is best for the Reds.
Um, no. Burton is on a different level than Bray is. There is nothing to figure out. There's nothing wrong with having Bill Bray in your bullpen, though.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:20 PM
Never let details get in the way of a good rant.

Read it again.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:20 PM
There's nothing wrong with having Bill Bray in your bullpen, though.

As long as you don't mind the other team scoring on you.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:21 PM
It's still the pitching. Griffey's gone; throw strikes.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:21 PM
Bruce's OPS on the year is .736.

Patterson's OPS requires characters that aren't available on this laptop.

Bruce has still struggled unbelievably over the last 2 months. I really can't even believe that we are debating this. It's like bragging that you got a 20 on the test because the guy who sits behind you got a 10.

They've both been awful in the recent past.

reds44
08-02-2008, 10:22 PM
As long as you don't mind the other team scoring on you.
He has a 2.83 ERA, that's not awful.

CTA513
08-02-2008, 10:22 PM
5 scoreless innings when the Reds are losing.
2 straight innings with runs allowed when the Reds are winning.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:22 PM
He has a 2.83 ERA, that's not awful.

If ERA tells us little about a starter, it tells us *nothing* about a reliever.

oneupper
08-02-2008, 10:22 PM
Mike Lincoln's scoreless streak is over. :(

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:23 PM
5 scoreless innings when the Reds are losing.
2 straight innings with runs allowed when the Reds are winning.

Yeah, that's what you get when you have to lean on your mediocre pen as badly as the Reds have had to.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 10:24 PM
Snidely Whiplash started the game ... now D'Artangan is coming in

CTA513
08-02-2008, 10:25 PM
Phillips boots a double play ball and now the game is tied.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:26 PM
Reds baseball. You wouldn't believe it if you didn't see it.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 10:26 PM
The "Team Leader" has a little trouble

flyer85
08-02-2008, 10:28 PM
I wonder what Bob and Walt think of their slapstick adventure

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:29 PM
This entire pitching staff needs a transfusion. They just look whipped.

That's what happens when three-fifths are rookies.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 10:30 PM
You might call this "Jim Bowden's Revenge." Bray and Majewski allowing hits and runs scoring.

And we quit scoring, as usual, after the big 2nd inning (adding one in the 6th).

Like VR said...aw, you read it didn't you?

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:30 PM
Washington Inning Summary

- M. Lincoln relieved B. Bray
- L. Milledge walked
- A. Kearns singled to left, L. Milledge to second
- J. Flores struck out swinging
- K. Casto singled to left, L. Milledge scored, A. Kearns to second
- A. Gonzalez singled to left, A. Kearns to third, K. Casto to second
- G. Majewski relieved M. Lincoln
- E. Dukes safe at first on second baseman B. Phillips' fielding error, A. Kearns scored, K. Casto to third, A. Gonzalez to second
- P. Orr hit for C. Manning
- P. Orr singled to left, K. Casto and A. Gonzalez scored, E. Dukes to second
- E. Bonifacio grounded out to first, E. Dukes to third, P. Orr to second
- W. Harris grounded out to second
- End of Inning (4 Runs, 4 Hits, 1 Error)

I leave the board and you guys let Bowdens crew run all over us....:(

reds44
08-02-2008, 10:30 PM
This entire pitching staff needs a transfusion. They just look whipped.

That's what happens when three-fifths are rookies.
Arroyo, Fogg, and Harang have been a bigger problem than Cueto and especially Volquez. Homer, well he just is awful.

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 10:31 PM
What was Fogg's pitch count tonight anyway? Did anybody besides me think Baker was pretty quick?

CTA513
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
You might call this "Jim Bowden's Revenge." Bray and Majewski allowing hits and runs scoring.

And we quit scoring, as usual, after the big 2nd inning (adding one in the 6th).

Like VR said...aw, you read it didn't you?


Majewski would have been out of the inning without allowing a run if Phillips didn't boot a double play ball.

WVRedsFan
08-02-2008, 10:32 PM
What was Fogg's pitch count tonight anyway? Did anybody besides me think Baker was pretty quick?

107. And yes, bringing Bray in was a fatal mistake along with not letting Fogg finish or attempt to finish the inning.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:34 PM
Arroyo, Fogg, and Harang have been a bigger problem than Cueto and especially Volquez. Homer, well he just is awful.

Well, early on Cueto was needing a lot of bailout. Homer has been putrid. Volquez has been a rock.

Losing Harang has been a serious issue, that's true.

reds44
08-02-2008, 10:35 PM
Trading Griffey certainly has helped. Time to blame Dunn.

nate
08-02-2008, 10:36 PM
Bruce has still struggled unbelievably over the last 2 months. I really can't even believe that we are debating this. It's like bragging that you got a 20 on the test because the guy who sits behind you got a 10.

They've both been awful in the recent past.

One hasn't been playing well but is a rookie with potentially great career ahead of him.

The other has an OPS and career upside undetectable even with the highest precision Swiss-made instruments.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:36 PM
1 hit (CP bunt single) since the 2nd inning. Oof.

GAC
08-02-2008, 10:37 PM
Majewski would have been out of the inning without allowing a run if Phillips didn't boot a double play ball.

Exactly. Majik did his job and was inducing GBs. Phillips was thinking DP before the ball was in his glove. The guy has pitched sound since the AS break.

Getting GBs is suppose to be a good thing....but not with this defense.

And Dunn made a sound throw from LF; but we have catchers on this team that can't catch the ball. I'm simply sick of these passed balls on OF throws.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:38 PM
Cincinnati Inning Summary

- L. Ayala relieved C. Manning
- B. Phillips grounded out to second
- A. Dunn flied out to shallow left
- E. Encarnacion grounded out to third
- End of Inning (0 Runs, 0 Hits, 0 Errors)

VR
08-02-2008, 10:41 PM
Nationals 5 tooling the Reds into oblivion now.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:42 PM
This is ridiculous

flyer85
08-02-2008, 10:43 PM
This team is so far away from competing, when Dunn leaves they are going to be similar to Gnats of this year.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:43 PM
Vintage Maj.

VR
08-02-2008, 10:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfdEn0fNdvs

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:44 PM
This team is so far away from competing, when Dunn leaves they are going to be similar to Gnats of this year.

True. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Washington was competitive before the Reds are.

CTA513
08-02-2008, 10:44 PM
The Reds should just leave for Cincinnati tonight.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:44 PM
10 runs 14 hits by Washington.........

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2008, 10:44 PM
Yeah...let's leave Fogg in after 107 pitches....odds were greater he would implode than Bray.

This bullpen has not been average FCB.....you always hit on things pretty clearly except for these "bullpens not very good" observations.

Bray is almost like Dave Tomlin in 1978, except it was his W-L record that was the mirage. He is like Frank Williams was in 1988.....low ERA but always let runners in when he came in.

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 10:45 PM
I'm sympathetic with Majik on Phillips' error but you couldn't make two worse pitches than the ones he made to Milledge and Kearns. I think WJ is learning some stuff about our bullpen tonight. That is, as I see it, next year's starts and ends with Cordero and Burton, unless you want to bring back Stormy for one more year. There is a lot of rebuilding to do.

Falls City Beer
08-02-2008, 10:45 PM
Yeah...let's leave Fogg in after 107 pitches....odds were greater he would implode than Bray.

This bullpen has not been average FCB.....you always hit on things pretty clearly except for these "bullpens not very good" observations.

Bray is almost like Dave Tomlin in 1978, except it was his W-L record that was the mirage. He is like Frank Williams was in 1988.....low ERA but always let runners in when he came in.

The Reds bullpen is grossly overrated on this board. I stand by that statement. They are average at best (with Burton); they slip into awful without him.

I will say that the bullpen has been overworked, which could be contributing to their problems.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:47 PM
Vintage Maj.


Someone needs to tell him he is on the Reds payroll now, better yet, use to be.

HokieRed
08-02-2008, 10:48 PM
I'm 100% with FCB on the bullpen. Much overrated by RZers. I bet it is not by WJ. I predict there will be major changes next year.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 10:50 PM
The bullpen misses their best pitcher ... Burton

Guys like Bray and Majewski and fungible even at their best

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 10:52 PM
Washington Inning Summary

- L. Milledge homered to deep left
- A. Kearns singled to deep right, A. Kearns to third on right fielder J. Bruce's fielding error
- A. Kearns scored on wild pitch
- J. Flores flied out to center
- K. Casto walked
- A. Gonzalez struck out looking
- E. Dukes grounded out to second
- End of Inning (2 Runs, 2 Hits, 1 Error) :angry:



J. Fogg 5.1 6 3 3 3 5 0 7.57
B. Bray 0.2 2 1 1 0 1 1 2.83
M. Lincoln 0.1 3 4 4 1 1 0 3.96
G. Majewski 1.2 3 2 1 1 1 1 3.60


Pitches-strikes - J Fogg 105-57; B Bray 14-11; M Lincoln 17-10; G Majewski 30-18; J Bergmann 97-62; C Manning 12-8; L Ayala 16-8.

Ground balls-fly balls - J Fogg 7-3; B Bray 1-0; M Lincoln 0-0; G Majewski 3-1; J Bergmann 7-9; C Manning 1-2; L Ayala 2-1.

Batters faced - J Fogg 25; B Bray 4; M Lincoln 5; G Majewski 10; J Bergmann 27; C Manning 3; L Ayala 3.

Fielding
E - J Keppinger (5, ground ball); B Phillips (5, ground ball); J Bruce (4, bobble).

CTA513
08-02-2008, 10:57 PM
Nationals turn a double play to end the game.

letsgojunior
08-02-2008, 10:58 PM
Nationals 5 tooling the Reds into oblivion now.

That made me laugh.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 10:58 PM
One hasn't been playing well but is a rookie with potentially great career ahead of him.

The other has an OPS and career upside undetectable even with the highest precision Swiss-made instruments.

But it all goes back to the post saying that these guys should have been hitting higher in the order all year because Cincy scored 5 runs in one inning tonight. No one is debating the fact that Bruce has a great future ahead of him. He has still been awful over the last 2 months.

The circle is complete. I'm done on this topic.

flyer85
08-02-2008, 11:00 PM
Other than Dunn this team has nothing but 6-7-8-9 hitters, it's simply a case that someone has to bat up there.

Corey may be back leading off tomorrow

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 11:05 PM
Final 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E

Cincinnati 0 5 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 6 7 3

Washington 2 0 0 0 0 2 4 2 X 10 14 1


Scoring Summary
Bot 1st: Washington
- A. Kearns singled to center, E. Bonifacio scored, L. Milledge to third

- J. Flores singled to left, L. Milledge scored, A. Kearns to second


Top 2nd: Cincinnati
- J. Votto doubled to deep center, P. Bako, E. Encarnacion and J. Keppinger scored

- J. Bruce homered to deep right, J. Votto scored


Top 6th: Cincinnati
- P. Bako sacrificed to catcher, C. Patterson scored


Bot 6th: Washington
- R. Belliard homered to deep left, A. Gonzalez scored


Bot 7th: Washington
- K. Casto singled to left, L. Milledge scored, A. Kearns to second

- E. Dukes safe at first on second baseman B. Phillips' fielding error, A. Kearns scored, K. Casto to third, A. Gonzalez to second

- P. Orr singled to left, K. Casto and A. Gonzalez scored, E. Dukes to second


Bot 8th: Washington
- L. Milledge homered to deep left

- A. Kearns scored on wild pitch

Batting
2B - B Phillips (20, J Bergmann); J Votto (21, J Bergmann).

HR - J Bruce (9, 2nd inning off J Bergmann 1 on, 2 Out).

S - J Fogg , P Bako.

RBI - J Votto 3 (49), J Bruce 2 (27), P Bako (31).

2-out RBI - J Votto 3, J Bruce 2.

Runners left in scoring position, 2 out - A Dunn 2.

Team LOB - 3.

Fielding
E - J Keppinger (5, ground ball); B Phillips (5, ground ball); J Bruce (4, bobble).

Outfield assists - C Patterson (J Flores at Home).

DP - 1 (J Keppinger-B Phillips-J Votto).

Batting
2B - E Bonifacio (2, J Fogg); A Gonzalez (2, J Fogg).

3B - E Bonifacio (1, B Bray).

HR - R Belliard (10, 6th inning off B Bray 1 on, 2 Out), L Milledge (8, 8th inning off G Majewski 0 on, 0 Out).

S - W Harris.

RBI - A Kearns (28), J Flores (48), R Belliard 2 (33), K Casto (10), E Dukes (23), P Orr 2 (2), L Milledge (35).

2-out RBI - R Belliard 2.

Runners left in scoring position, 2 out - W Harris 3, R Langerhans 1, L Milledge 1.

GIDP - A Gonzalez.

Team LOB - 10.

Fielding
E - J Bergmann (1, throw).



J. Fogg 5.1 6 3 3 3 5 0 7.57
B. Bray 0.2 2 1 1 0 1 1 2.83
M. Lincoln 0.1 3 4 4 1 1 0 3.96
G. Majewski 1.2 3 2 1 1 1 1 3.60

Washington

J. Bergmann 6.0 6 6 5 3 2 1 4.33
C. Manning 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 4.01
L. Ayala 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 0 5.44
S. Rivera 1.0 1 0 0 0 1 0 3.26


WP - G Majewski.

HBP - L Milledge (by J Fogg).

Pitches-strikes - J Fogg 105-57; B Bray 14-11; M Lincoln 17-10; G Majewski 30-18; J Bergmann 97-62; C Manning 12-8; L Ayala 16-8.

Ground balls-fly balls - J Fogg 7-3; B Bray 1-0; M Lincoln 0-0; G Majewski 3-1; J Bergmann 7-9; C Manning 1-2; L Ayala 2-1.

Batters faced - J Fogg 25; B Bray 4; M Lincoln 5; G Majewski 10; J Bergmann 27; C Manning 3; L Ayala 3

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 11:07 PM
Read it again.

Trying to say Bruce has been "Corey" like continues to be in a different universe of reality. Patterson has broken .700 OPS exactly 3 times in his 10 seasons. Bruce is currently sitting at .736. CPatt has exceeded .300 OBP 4 times in 10 years. Bruce is currently north of .300. Cpatt has had a SLG more than .500 exactly once in 10 years. And that year he only had 83 ABs.

In terms of value over a replacement player, Bruce is about even with replacement level (not sure if that's compared to other CF or RF). Patterson's value compared to your every day scrub is so low he needs binoculars to see being even let alone above replacement level.

Compared to his entire carear or just this year, Bruce is nowhere near Patterson-esque. Struggling? Yes. About replacement level? Yes. Patterson-lite? Nowhere close.



Bruce has still struggled unbelievably over the last 2 months. I really can't even believe that we are debating this.

The "debate" is whether having Votto and Bruce batting higher would have been better than Corey Patterson, Jeff Keppenger, Scott Hatteburg, Noris Hopper and the other assorted cast of charicters we saw and the top of the line up back in April.

Votto turned in a .879 OPS in April. Patterson? .780 OPS. You can't see how having more of Votto and less of Patterson would have been helpfull back in April when runs were as rare as hens teath?

And Patterson's .780 is boyed by 4 home runs in a relatively small number of AB's. His OBP? .292. And when batting 1st that number dips to .218. His BA? .225 and .179 when leading off.

Bruce, on the other hand, posted .516 SLG, .432 OBP and .344BA when batting 2nd. Unfortunatley he only got 64 at bats in the 2 hole and those didn't start till May. Do you serriously want to argue that having this line in the 2 hole back in April wouldn't have been an improvement?

Leading off you ask? Yea, not impressive with a .232 BA , .260 OBP .389 SLG .649 OPS. But don't forget, we are talking about replacing Pattersons AB's with Bruces. If Bruce started in April, leadoff on every at bat, and put up these numbers, they are still better than what Patterson was able to acomplish.

Sure, in isolation Bruce's numbers in total aren't that hot. But if given the choice of 200PA's at the top of the lineup of the intergalatically huge brand of suck that is Patterson or 200 PA's of just blah I'll take the blah every day of the week (of corse I'd rather have stellar). And just imagine if what Bruce did in the 2 hole in May was done in the 2 hole in April?

If the concept of higher production at bats > lower production at bats eludes you, then we have nothing further to discuss. If you can't see that being average or even replacement level would have been better than the majority of the PA's turned in by TOLU hitters in April then you are either being obtuse or just in the mood to argue.

Tony Cloninger
08-02-2008, 11:16 PM
Lincoln has not been average....but i understand if he starts to tire soon...I mean 2+ years of being out..he will probably hit a wall.

Bray...I agree and like I pointed out in comparisons...is overrated.

Maj had a bad game...after doing okay for a few games...he is the clasic last man on the pitching staff.....trouble is so is Homer...and Fogg.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 11:17 PM
Corey may be back leading off tomorrow

Your Fired !!! pick up your check at the log out.

:lol:

flyer85
08-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Your Fired !!! pick up your check at the log out.

:lol:I get paid!! :beerme:

In peanuts I bet

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 11:20 PM
I get paid!! :beerme:

In peanuts I bet

No, A Dusty autographed photo of him hugging GAC, and a Patterson bobblehead. Enjoy! :)

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 11:20 PM
Trying to say Bruce has been "Corey" like continues to be in a different universe of reality. Patterson has broken .700 OPS exactly 3 times in his 10 seasons. Bruce is currently sitting at .736. CPatt has exceeded .300 OBP 4 times in 10 years. Bruce is currently north of .300. Cpatt has had a SLG more than .500 exactly once in 10 years. And that year he only had 83 ABs.

Over the last two months was the quote.

June: .223/.274/.340
July: .253/.282/.384

My point and sample size was the last 2 months. Not the entire season, where Bruce's numbers are elevated by a great opening week or two. June and July.


The "debate" is whether having Votto and Bruce batting higher would have been better than Corey Patterson, Jeff Keppenger, Scott Hatteburg, Noris Hopper and the other assorted cast of charicters we saw and the top of the line up back in April.

Votto turned in a .879 OPS in April. Patterson? .780 OPS. You can't see how having more of Votto and less of Patterson would have been helpfull back in April when runs were as rare as hens teath?

And Patterson's .780 is boyed by 4 home runs in a relatively small number of AB's. His OBP? .292. And when batting 1st that number dips to .218. His BA? .225 and .179 when leading off.

Bruce, on the other hand, posted .516 SLG, .432 OBP and .344BA when batting 2nd. Unfortunatley he only got 64 at bats in the 2 hole and those didn't start till May. Do you serriously want to argue that having this line in the 2 hole back in April wouldn't have been an improvement?

Leading off you ask? Yea, not impressive with a .232 BA , .260 OBP .389 SLG .649 OPS. But don't forget, we are talking about replacing Pattersons AB's with Bruces. If Bruce started in April, leadoff on every at bat, and put up these numbers, they are still better than what Patterson was able to acomplish.

Sure, in isolation Bruce's numbers in total aren't that hot. But if given the choice of 200PA's at the top of the lineup of the intergalatically huge brand of suck that is Patterson or 200 PA's of just blah I'll take the blah every day of the week (of corse I'd rather have stellar). And just imagine if what Bruce did in the 2 hole in May was done in the 2 hole in April?

If the concept of higher production at bats > production at bats eludes you, then we have nothing further to discuss.

Bottom line is that the last two months these guys haven't been that great. And putting them in the front of the lineup wouldn't have done anything except MAYBE give the FO additional false hopes of competing this year and dropping their 2009 draft position. Maybe they would have scored a few more runs, sure. But Keppinger was everyone's favorite WK addition for the better part of this year when he was ripping it up. He had some nice months there. Now he should have been dropped in the order?

But look back in my posts. I think I was one of the few (if not only) people ripping the Hatteberg/Votto situation back in the offseason. I nailed it. The guy was a waste of money and Votto should have had the job since day one. Let him sink or swim. Picking up Hatte's option was a bad move.

jojo
08-02-2008, 11:21 PM
Patterson at age 21: .221/.266/.336; OPS+: 58;

Bruce at age 21: .267/.318/.418; OPS+: 89;

But I do agree that generally while Dusty's lineups are UGLY, they aren't the difference maker for this season.

Ltlabner
08-02-2008, 11:33 PM
Bottom line is that the last two months these guys haven't been that great. And putting them in the front of the lineup wouldn't have done anything except MAYBE give the FO additional false hopes of competing this year and dropping their 2009 draft position. Maybe they would have scored a few more runs, sure. But Keppinger was everyone's favorite WK addition for the better part of this year when he was ripping it up. He had some nice months there. Now he should have been dropped in the order?

Second bolded section first...Kepps line in the 2hole versus what Votto put up in April?


AVG OBP SLG OPS
.260 .296 .367 .663
.308 .341 .538 .879

Really? You can't see where that would be better? Would Votto have put up the same numbers in the 2hole? We'll never know. But he was hot as hell in April and we gave him less PA's, not more. So yea, Kepp should have been dropped in the order.

The first bolded section.....that's the whole fricken point. More runs usually translate to more wins. At the very least, more runs > less runs.

The rest of your post is a smoke screen. We're not talking about your views on the Hatteburg contract or the FOs strategy for 2009. We're talking about the concept of replacing unproductive at bats with at least average at bats, and very likely above average at bats.

I would hope that you would see where replacing hidously unproductive and below replacement level (let alone average) plate appearnces with productive ones is a good thing. More runs are, in fact, helpfull to winning.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 11:34 PM
One thing is dogging me about the Patterson and Bruce argument.

Bruce is a rookie who showed that he struggled in spring training at leadoff, and he spent most of his baseball life batting around the three slot. In defense of Patterson, there were articles on him and batting leadoff back to his Chicago Cubs days out on the net, he did not like leading off, and his numbers have shown production hitting down in the order.

When either or both showed signs of dropping off in performance or production, I just donít believe that they should have been left in the leadoff position for a prolonged period of time.

I do believe that decision to leave them there did hurt the team and them somewhat.

I never understood a rookie being tossed into the fire right away anyway by batting Bruce up in the one or two slot to start. Plus no one knows for sure what instructions either of them might have been given, that might have effected them and their approach at the plate.

If we see them hit better away from the lead off, I think that will speak to something, not sure what, but I do think it might matter for Patterson and Bruce for whatever reason.

#1 position for Bruce/Patterson
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&order=false&season=2008&split=109&seasonType=2&type=reg

Bruce splits
Batting #1 .232 .260 .389 .649
Batting #2 .344 .432 .516 .948


3 yr splits Patterson
Batting #1 .212 .256 .338 .594
Batting #6 .303 .335 .426 .761
Batting #7 .272 .320 .475 .795

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=4239&type=batting3

traderumor
08-02-2008, 11:49 PM
Shameful, just shameful to let the worst offense in the league score 10 runs, regardless of how they did it. Six shutout innings for the bullpen last night, seven in 3+ innings tonight. An inexcusable loss to a bad team. There are just too many bad players on this team that I don't really see why in the world they would think that giving Dunn $70-80 million over the next four years is going to make a difference.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 11:51 PM
Second bolded section first...Kepps line in the 2hole versus what Votto put up in April?


AVG OBP SLG OPS
.260 .296 .367 .663
.308 .341 .538 .879

Really? You can't see where that would be better? Would Votto have put up the same numbers in the 2hole? We'll never know. But he was hot as hell in April and we gave him less PA's, not more. So yea, Kepp should have been dropped in the order.

The first bolded section.

That's the whole fricken point. More runs are usually translate to more wins.

The rest of your post is a smoke screen. We're not talking about your views on the Hatteburg contract or the FOs strategy for 2009. We're talking about replacing not only unproductive at bats with at least average at bats, and very likely above average at bats.

I would hope that you would see where replacing hidously unproductive and below replacement level (let alone average) plate appearnces with productive ones is a good thing. More runs are, in fact, helpfull to winning.

Here's the issue...we can play Monday morning QB all we want. Votto had a great start to the season. Then he flamed out the past 2 months. If he hit higher in the order in April and May, he probably would have hit higher in the order in June/July when he was bad. If you have an equation for that, how much damage would his .689 July OPS have done in the 2 hole? Would it have lessened the positive effect he would have had in April in the 2 hole?

Same with Bruce. He has been awful over the past two months. He wouldn't have been a positive influence in any lineup.

The roster construction has had more of a negative impact on this team than the lineup construction. There are some things that should have been obvious to people (i.e. CPatt being in the lineup for way too long) and others that were a bit less obvious (Votto should be hitting up in the order because he's going to start out hot, but that he should be dropped b/c he'll drop off in June).

Obviously more productive ABs will have more of a positive impact on a team's success. But to start micromanaging what lineups should have looked like back in April with no regard on other aspects of those decisions is a fruitless exercise.

Spring~Fields
08-02-2008, 11:52 PM
Shameful, just shameful to let the worst offense in the league score 10 runs, regardless of how they did it. Six shutout innings for the bullpen last night, seven in 3+ innings tonight. An inexcusable loss to a bad team. There are just too many bad players on this team that I don't really see why in the world they would think that giving Dunn $70-80 million over the next four years is going to make a difference.


I agree, unless they are willing to bring in and pay for a significant supporting cast to play with and around AD.

edabbs44
08-02-2008, 11:52 PM
Shameful, just shameful to let the worst offense in the league score 10 runs, regardless of how they did it. Six shutout innings for the bullpen last night, seven in 3+ innings tonight. An inexcusable loss to a bad team. There are just too many bad players on this team that I don't really see why in the world they would think that giving Dunn $70-80 million over the next four years is going to make a difference.

Agreed. The only thing it will do is keep RedsZone arguments at their current levels.

OnBaseMachine
08-02-2008, 11:57 PM
This may have been the most embarrassing game of the season. Three errors by the defense, terrible pitching, and scrubs like Patterson, Bako, and Fogg all in the lineup.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2008, 12:15 AM
This may have been the most embarrassing game of the season. Three errors by the defense, terrible pitching, and scrubs like Patterson, Bako, and Fogg all in the lineup.
This team is made up of scrubs. I'll give everyone Bruce and Votto--they will be fine. Dunn is a jewel of a player, but after that, I don't know. Phillips shows brilliance at times and others he looks like a buffoon at the plate and a butcher in the field. Keppinger is a utility man. Encarnacion is such a sporadic hitter and fielder that he looks like the third baseman on the 62 Mets. Patterson. You know his story. Hairston and Freel. You know their story. Bako, Ross, and Valentin. Ugh.

Harang, Volquez, Cueto, and even Arroyo are adequate or better. After that, we have fodder. No matter how much Bray is loved on this board, I see nothing but a straight fastball that he often leaves up in the zone. Majewski is fodder--bad fodder regardless of some success in July. Only Burton and Weathers have shown they can get anyone out and Weathers is a question mark. Cordero just isn't a lights out closer.

This team is so far from competing that it's not even funny, and I'll bet Jocketty knows it. I look for many changes including getting rid of some sacred cows over the winter. If not, this is what you get for the next ten years with this team that is so close to competing. Enjoy.

Ltlabner
08-03-2008, 12:22 AM
Then he flamed out the past 2 months. If he hit higher in the order in April and May, he probably would have hit higher in the order in June/July when he was bad.

But to start micromanaging what lineups should have looked like back in April with no regard on other aspects of those decisions is a fruitless exercise.

Funny, once again the numbers don't jive with your assertions.

In total, Votto's June & July, the ones where he "flamed out", are actually comperable to Brandon Phillips, Jr, and Keppenger. Griffey had a hot July, but don't forget his April & May were hideous. Kepp's numbers in June are inflated as he only had a small number of at bats. There really shouldn't even be any question about CPatt. I chose these guys because they usually are found towards the top of the order and are likely canidates to lose PA's in this scenario.

In other words, even when Votto "flamed out" his production is no worse than the guys who actually got the at bats. And when he was hot his production far exceeded the guys he would have likely replaced. That would have been dang handy back in April no?

So yea, you could have had higher or equal production, for more at bats over the long haul without any need to "micro manage" the lineup. No monday morning QBing, no ever changing line ups. No "flame out". Just the cold facts that greater production trumps lesser production.

I agree that going back in time is fruitless, however, you are the one who made the inaccurate statement regarding Votto and Bruce higher in the line up.

And since you are unwilling, as usual, to admit your statements don't mirror reality nor hold any water, I'll beg out now.

Here's the numbers for those interested in the facts....


Month BA OBP SLG OPS
Phillips June .262 .304 .374 .678
July .278 .330 .402 .732

Votto Month BA OBP SLG OPS
June .257 .315 .386 .701
July .261 .337 .352 .689

JR Month BA OBP SLG OPS
June .205 .370 .425 .795
July .271 .386 .541 .927

Kepp Month BA OBP SLG OPS
June .296 .406 .370 .776
July .206 .238 .258 .496

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2008, 12:28 AM
This team is so far from competing that it's not even funny, and I'll bet Jocketty knows it. I look for many changes including getting rid of some sacred cows over the winter. If not, this is what you get for the next ten years with this team that is so close to competing. Enjoy.

I disagree strongly with that. I think with a few good moves this team will be ready to compete next season.

RedFanAlways1966
08-03-2008, 12:31 AM
Phillips shows brilliance at times and others he looks like a buffoon at the plate and a butcher in the field.

2nd Base
* 3rd in MLB Fielding %.
* 3rd in Zone Rating.

The error tonight hurt. But he is far from a butcher in the field.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2008, 01:25 AM
2nd Base
* 3rd in MLB Fielding %.
* 3rd in Zone Rating.

The error tonight hurt. But he is far from a butcher in the field.

Sometimes. Only sometimes. Other times he is brilliant. I guess that's the luck of the draw. Tonight it hurt because it was crucial. The difference between winning and losing (at the time). Many times we've heard about a gold glove for Brandon. This is why he won't get one. And I hate it. I'd bet he does too.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2008, 01:26 AM
I disagree strongly with that. I think with a few good moves this team will be ready to compete next season.

Tell me how. I want to know how you can overcome the mistakes and mental errors of present personnel. Along with the pitching woes. It's a real reach to assume all will be corrected by next season without massive changes in personnel, but I'm willing to listen and hope you are correct.

Mario-Rijo
08-03-2008, 09:21 AM
Sometimes. Only sometimes. Other times he is brilliant. I guess that's the luck of the draw. Tonight it hurt because it was crucial. The difference between winning and losing (at the time). Many times we've heard about a gold glove for Brandon. This is why he won't get one. And I hate it. I'd bet he does too.

I know I'm late on this one but I cannot help myself. That is one of the most ludicrous statements ever on any board. BP looks like a Butcher at times??? The guy has touched the ball 518 times this season and has 5 errors which includes a 76 game errorless streak, I'd call that rarely looks like a butcher at best. You're jewel of a player Dunn has 6 errors in only 187 chances.

nate
08-03-2008, 09:38 AM
Sometimes. Only sometimes. Other times he is brilliant. I guess that's the luck of the draw. Tonight it hurt because it was crucial. The difference between winning and losing (at the time). Many times we've heard about a gold glove for Brandon. This is why he won't get one. And I hate it. I'd bet he does too.

Which defender is brilliant "all the time?"

oneupper
08-03-2008, 10:32 AM
Which defender is brilliant "all the time?"

Didn't Brooks Robinson make 3 errors in a game (inning?) once?

WVRedsFan
08-03-2008, 01:15 PM
I know I'm late on this one but I cannot help myself. That is one of the most ludicrous statements ever on any board. BP looks like a Butcher at times??? The guy has touched the ball 518 times this season and has 5 errors which includes a 76 game errorless streak, I'd call that rarely looks like a butcher at best. You're jewel of a player Dunn has 6 errors in only 187 chances.

Emotion. Upset over BP's play last night. It wasn't fair. He is a supurb fielder. At the bat? Sometimes, I don't know.

Mea Culpa.