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Wheelhouse
08-03-2008, 10:04 AM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/COL03/808030431/1071

Couldn't agree more, and I'm glad at least one writer has the guts to say it...

flyer85
08-03-2008, 10:09 AM
Acquire some talent might be a better start ... pitchers that can miss bats and everyday players who wouldn't be 6-7-8 hitters on almost any other major league team.

But if it makes you feel better than blame the losing on a sofa.

MWM
08-03-2008, 10:13 AM
Daugherty isn't smart enough to figure out what the team really needs, so he latches on to nonsense like this. Yep folks, THIS is YOUR Cincinnati sports media. The city deserves better.

oneupper
08-03-2008, 10:16 AM
Take the male children into the woods to survive overnight. Throw the weak ones over a cliff.


THIS IS SPARTA! :D

SunDeck
08-03-2008, 10:20 AM
From Erardi's article this morning:


Here is the Reds' DER and the rank among MLB teams defensively for the last decade:

Year DER MLB rank
2008 .681 29th
2007 .682 26th
2006 .691 21st
2005 .683 28th
2004 .696 20th
2003 .698 21st
2002 .700 19th
2001 .695 23rd
2000 .710 3rd
1999 .731 1st

Couch, smouch.

flyer85
08-03-2008, 10:28 AM
If they are serious about changing the culture the best place to start would be with the manager. Removing the chairs is just juvenile. If you don't like a certain player's attitude, then get rid of them.

However, a bad attitude loafer like Manny sure has found a way to play on a bunch of winning teams ... I suspect talent trumps attitude 7 days a week.

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 10:30 AM
If they are serious about changing the culture the best place to start would be with the manager.

The culture preceeds Baker.

membengal
08-03-2008, 10:32 AM
Seriously? Furniture? Again?

Daugherty in all seriousness comes up with THAT as a symbol of the team's problems?

I echo MWM, gracious, but Cincy needs a better columnist.

Cooper
08-03-2008, 10:33 AM
Perception only becomes important when losing. When a team is winning people don't even notice stuff like a sofa.

It's the same as when companies start losing money. Things that were not noticed for years all of the sudden take on meaning...."how can our company spend $25 on new pens for admin. when we are losing money hand over fist?"

We all know $25 worth of pens mean nothing to the over all equation of a company making money-but when there's money being lost -suddenly the small things become relavent.

So yeah, the sofa has to go until the NEXT thing is noticed (I'm guessing some old newspaper guy will rail about the players playing video games in the clubhouse).

Does it make a hill of beans difference in the big picture? Nope.
Does it have to change? Yup.
When will it not matter? When the team wins you'll never hear another word about it. In fact, if they start winning they can all have sofa's.

Hap
08-03-2008, 10:34 AM
Did the furniture exist and/or was it the cause of futility during the Bob Boone era?

BCubb2003
08-03-2008, 10:39 AM
Apparently the problem has escalated from a recliner to a sofa. It's not the furniture, but the wrong-headed plays, throws to the wrong bases, non-professional at-bats, etc.

pahster
08-03-2008, 10:40 AM
I wonder is Daugherty is as stupid in person as this article makes him appear. His inability to string together a cogent argument based on sound reasoning is maddening.

Daugherty: zomg teh redz hab fernichur tahts y tehy r teh loozing lolololol!!11!!

He gets paid to produce this specious drivel. Incredible.

westofyou
08-03-2008, 10:43 AM
This guy is a hack, day in and day out he can't approach the game in a manner that examines the way it's played, so thus he has to attack myths and inanimate objects as being the problem.

He's consistent in one thing, he has no idea how to fix the Reds and he proves it every time he tries to approach the problem.

rdiersin
08-03-2008, 10:44 AM
I wonder is Daugherty is as stupid in person as this article makes him appear. His inability to string together a cogent argument based on sound reasoning is maddening.

Daugherty: zomg teh redz hab fernichur tahts y tehy r teh loozing lolololol!!11!!

He gets paid to produce this specious drivel. Incredible.

More like lazy. Its August, all of his other canned answers to solve this team's problems have been used. His choices were to actually do something intelligent and research something that might be at the cause of this mess, or blame it on the furniture. Its August. Its hot and humid. He chose the latter, its less work.

The saddest part, beyond this article being written, is that people actually buy it. But I guess its too hot and humid to think.

nate
08-03-2008, 10:51 AM
If a more Spartan environment creates a better result, Daugherty should switch from boxers to cheese-grater fly Jockey shorts.

Blitz Dorsey
08-03-2008, 10:54 AM
From Erardi's article this morning:



Couch, smouch.

I agree with the point Erardi is trying to make. Defense has been the No. 1 problem of this team since 2000. The Reds can't afford to have more than one below-average defensive player (I'm OK with Dunn) and they have several. Not sure what they can do about it because they can't get rid of players like EE, Keppinger and Votto because they are so crucial to the offense.

*Bangs head against wall*

Wheelhouse
08-03-2008, 10:55 AM
If they are serious about changing the culture the best place to start would be with the manager. Removing the chairs is just juvenile. If you don't like a certain player's attitude, then get rid of them.

However, a bad attitude loafer like Manny sure has found a way to play on a bunch of winning teams ... I suspect talent trumps attitude 7 days a week.

Juvenile may be correct--and I think that's the problem. The team has a childish approach. Jr. was "The Kid" in the good and bad senses of the word. Erardi's stat post just confirms that the Reds should (and need) to take infield every day. You may mock the hard nosed approach, but look at the two fastest turnarounds in recent years--led by Joe Maddon and Jim Leyland. Do you think players good off in LaRussa's clubhouse, or on the bench? They are always a focused group. They bat in order, they have win streaks that build on a season, not a few wins then a collapse for a week, they have a strong team approach at the plate. Yes it is juvenile to remove the couch... but that's where you have to start when dealing with children.

MWM
08-03-2008, 11:06 AM
I guarantee you there's plenty of levity and comfrotable places to sit in Leylan'd and LaRussa's clubhouses. These guys play 6 games a week for months. I don't think any of us can possibly comprehend how exhausting that is. To trat them as prisoners or as soldiers in a war is just silly. To think that a couch has anything at all to do with the Reds' problems is beyond silly to flat out assinine.

membengal
08-03-2008, 11:18 AM
I think the relevant question is:

Why does Haverty's hate the Reds?

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Havertys/0-2500-0044?op_sharpen=1&wid=210&hei=163

Falls City Beer
08-03-2008, 11:21 AM
I agree with the point Erardi is trying to make. Defense has been the No. 1 problem of this team since 2000. The Reds can't afford to have more than one below-average defensive player (I'm OK with Dunn) and they have several. Not sure what they can do about it because they can't get rid of players like EE, Keppinger and Votto because they are so crucial to the offense.

*Bangs head against wall*

Keppinger's not crucial to anything. Griffey being gone will help, but they still need a SS, catcher, and CF (and probably a 3B).

Razor Shines
08-03-2008, 11:36 AM
Did someone really get paid to write an article that started and ended with "Lose The Couch"? Is HGTV doing a makeover show on MLB clubhouses? Hell as long as we're at it lets get some recessed lighting in there. Recessed lighting always gets me in the mood to field some ground balls.

osuceltic
08-03-2008, 11:38 AM
Did you guys even bother reading the column?


What would it mean on the field?

Maybe nothing. Talent or lack of it is more relevant to performance than the clubhouse lounging opportunities. Couch or Couch-less, the '08 Reds weren't built with October in mind.

He knows talent is the bottom line, but he also knows the lousy defense, preparation, mental approach and lack of consistent effort go beyond talent. This team's ceiling wasn't exceptionally high because of the talent, but they haven't approached that ceiling because of a number of things that go beyond talent.

You can't snap your fingers and change the talent part of it. That takes time. But you can do something about the other stuff. That was supposed to be one of the reasons Dusty was hired -- he had the gravitas to challenge the status quo and stand up to the Juniors and Dunns and the culture they had created. But he hasn't done it.

Daugherty isn't saying the couch is the problem. He's saying it's a symbol of one of the problems with this team -- a problem that has been here for too many years. And if you can't see that, you aren't watching very closely.


Sometimes, you don't get what you expect. You get what you tolerate.

I'm pretty sure most of you didn't get to this line. This is exactly right.

I appreciate Erardi's statistical analysis, but I also think Doc for years has had a handle on the problem with the clubhouse environment around this team. Pointing out one problem doesn't mean he isn't aware of the other.

Falls City Beer
08-03-2008, 11:42 AM
Willie Randolph and Joe Girardi run no-nonsense clubhouses. Willie's fired after the Mets (despite picking up the best pitcher in baseball) flopped early on. And Girardi's captaining a very expensive underperforming Yankees' club.

KronoRed
08-03-2008, 11:48 AM
The culture preceeds Baker.

Adding more fuel to the fire that the culture is all about wins and losses and not chairs and personalties.

Get talent..win games..culture will improve.

OnBaseMachine
08-03-2008, 11:55 AM
I read on Daugherty's blog that he waits tables in his spare time. I think he needs to make that his full-time job because he sucks as a writer.

Razor Shines
08-03-2008, 11:56 AM
I'm sorry but the more I think about this, the more ridiculous this suggestion seems to me.

I can imagine the players reaction upon finding out that The Couch of Slothfulness has been removed. "Guys, you know all that stuff the FO said about wanting to win and stuff? Well they weren't kidding..........Yeah they took the couch."

And then what about on the road? I know how some alcoholics called ahead to hotels they're staying at to make sure the mini-bar is removed. I can imagine Jocketty on the phone to apposing team's clubhouse managers.

Jock: "This is Walt Jocketty, we're in town next week for a series with you guys. Is there any way you can make sure there are no comfortable places to sit in our clubhouse? Yeah, some of our guys have a problem and they don't trust themselves around leather or even really cushy cloth...............No, no folding chairs are fine, preferably metal or a hard wood."

Raisor
08-03-2008, 11:59 AM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:J2Tko-iUQddrhM:http://www.papasanfurniture.com/images/single_papasan.jpg


The couch is one thing, but I pitty the fool that takes Dunn's papasan.

WVRedsFan
08-03-2008, 12:11 PM
Shades of Dave Miley getting tough. He took the chairs. It did wonders for that team and the ones that followed. Yeah, right.

Get better players and quit fooling yourself and everyone else that what we now have is good enough to win. That's a start anyway.

nate
08-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Maybe change the uniforms to hair shirts.

RichRed
08-03-2008, 12:20 PM
I wonder is Daugherty is as stupid in person as this article makes him appear. His inability to string together a cogent argument based on sound reasoning is maddening.


Have you heard him on the radio? He speaks as intelligently as he writes. WOY's got it right: a hack, plain and simple.

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 12:20 PM
Maybe the couch isn't itself the problem or, in fact, a problem. But maybe it is a symbol of the problem. Maybe the guys are lounging/playing PS3/bsing instead of watching film or taking extra BP. Maybe the team is showing lazy tendencies and the couch is just a symbol of that. Who knows?

It isn't an idiotic suggestion. We don't see what goes on. The team seems like it is just going through the motions until the end of the season. Getting rid of the couch might not solve world hunger, but maybe it will make a statement to the guys that they better get their crap in order.

membengal
08-03-2008, 12:21 PM
I can't believe we are really replaying the arguments and "logic" from recliner-gate. I mean, really.

nate
08-03-2008, 12:22 PM
Maybe the couch isn't itself the problem or, in fact, a problem. But maybe it is a symbol of the problem. Maybe the guys are lounging/playing PS3/bsing instead of watching film or taking extra BP. Maybe the team is showing lazy tendencies and the couch is just a symbol of that. Who knows?

It isn't an idiotic suggestion. We don't see what goes on. The team seems like it is just going through the motions until the end of the season. Getting rid of the couch might not solve world hunger, but maybe it will make a statement to the guys that they better get their crap in order.

"The beatings will continue until morale improves."

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 12:34 PM
What I am saying is that success is more than just statistics. The Boston/LA trade is a good illustration of that.

pahster
08-03-2008, 12:35 PM
Maybe the couch isn't itself the problem or, in fact, a problem. But maybe it is a symbol of the problem. Maybe the guys are lounging/playing PS3/bsing instead of watching film or taking extra BP. Maybe the team is showing lazy tendencies and the couch is just a symbol of that. Who knows?

It isn't an idiotic suggestion. We don't see what goes on. The team seems like it is just going through the motions until the end of the season. Getting rid of the couch might not solve world hunger, but maybe it will make a statement to the guys that they better get their crap in order.

I'm sorry, but suggesting that the removal of a couch will improve the skills of the players on the Reds roster just isn't a tenable argument.

MWM
08-03-2008, 12:36 PM
Even as a symbol, it's still ridiculous, IMO.

And the Boston-LA trade won't prove anything. The difference between Bay and Manny was much greater 2-3 years ago. Manny is 36 and the past two seasons have produced his two worst since he's been an every day player. Bay is a very under-valued guy. He's not Manny Ramirez, but the difference isn't all that great this year.

Besides, there's a difference between overall culture and having a clubhouse cancer like Manny. Besides, what happens if LA gets better because of Manny?

westofyou
08-03-2008, 12:39 PM
What I am saying is that success is more than just statistics. The Boston/LA trade is a good illustration of that.

True it is.

But removing furniture from millionaires is hardly a educated approach to solving a problem that occurs between the lines.

In fact, as we have seen it's the last desperate act of someone who has no idea how to fix the problem they've been hired to fix.

MWM
08-03-2008, 12:41 PM
Did Daugherty mention how many other clubhouses have nice couches? My guess is it's most of them. Did he mention how much time they spend in these clubhouses? How in the hell can having a comfortable place to sit down having anything to do with anything. How is denying baseball players luxuries going to help the culture? These guys aren't machines. They don't sit there 24 hours a day with a mean intense look on their face thinking about nothing else but the next game. The idea of denial as a means of avoiding complacency is dark ages stuff. This isn't the military. It's baseball. Let the guys sit on a couch for pete's sake. Good grief. A couch. I can't believe something like a couch is being debated.

If my kid starts to get bad grades, should I make them sleep on the floor? Or should I just not let them sit on anything comfortable?

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 12:45 PM
I'm sorry, but suggesting that the removal of a couch will improve the skills of the players on the Reds roster just isn't a tenable argument.

Not improving the skills. Improving the performance.

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 12:46 PM
Did Daugherty mention how many other clubhouses have nice couches? My guess is it's most of them. Did he mention how much time they spend in these clubhouses? How in the hell can having a comfortable place to sit down having anything to do with anything. How is denying baseball players luxuries going to help the culture? These guys aren't machines. They don't sit there 24 hours a day with a mean intense look on their face thinking about nothing else but the next game. The idea of denial as a means of avoiding complacency is dark ages stuff. This isn't the military. It's baseball. Let the guys sit on a couch for pete's sake. Good grief. A couch. I can't believe something like a couch is being debated.

If my kid starts to get bad grades, should I make them sleep on the floor? Or should I just not let them sit on anything comfortable?

If your kid gets bad grades, would you take away his Wii if you found him to be playing it instead of studying?

Hoosier Red
08-03-2008, 12:48 PM
I'm reading a book for my MBA program called "Good to Great." The thesis of the book is research focused around finding out not just what "great" organizations do, but what they do that is so different than their "mediocre or good" competitors.

I'm pretty sure all organizations have the same clubhouse layout, but the difference comes in how they behave and how they go about acquiring talent.

mbgrayson
08-03-2008, 01:09 PM
I think the problem may be the COLOR of the couch. Is it Redleg RED? If not, time to get a new one....lol. And Daugherty actually gets paid to write this stuff?

PuffyPig
08-03-2008, 01:13 PM
Acquire some talent might be a better start ... pitchers that can miss bats and everyday players who wouldn't be 6-7-8 hitters on almost any other major league team.

But if it makes you feel better than blame the losing on a sofa.

FWIW, the Reds pitchers are third in the majors in "missing bats".

MartyFan
08-03-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't think it is that outlandish an idea...children lose privileges when they misbehave...the cushy sofa is just that.

I have been willing to give Dusty the benefit of the doubt since he was named manager...I think I will be forced to do so the next couple of years but I wonder how this exact team would have performed under Mack this year.

The BIGGEST mistake I see from the Special K era is not keeping him as manager...we didn't and don't need a bg name, we need a person with presence and passion for playing the game "THE RIGHT WAY" and that means fielding, base running, hitting and pitching...the teams makeup is not bad...there is enough talent on this team to win this division what they lack is motivation.

harangatang
08-03-2008, 01:40 PM
harangatang: Reds need to score more runs then they allow to change their losing ways.

You know when you live in a blue collar town when it's supposedly the lack of hard work and not talent that affects how the team performs. The problem is the Reds were making a push at .500 and all of a sudden the Reds management thinks the Reds are better than what they really are in reality. The Reds were overperforming and the management decides to keep a below league average offense (Minus KGJ) with a team OPS+ of 94. I would be fine with the Reds getting rid of the couch if meant they were going to replace it with some offense and maybe a little more pitching too.

SMcGavin
08-03-2008, 01:43 PM
He's consistent in one thing, he has no idea how to fix the Reds and he proves it every time he tries to approach the problem.

RedsManRick
08-03-2008, 01:48 PM
It's one thing to get all hot and bothered when your team is clearly underperforming. This team just isn't very good. Getting rid of a sofa won't turn Josh Fogg in to Johan Santana or make EE play defense like Scott Rolen.

Maybe they should find better beat reporters. That's one area that could clearly use an upgrade.

RichRed
08-03-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't think it is that outlandish an idea...children lose privileges when they misbehave...the cushy sofa is just that.


And treating grown men like children is seldom a good idea.

RedsManRick
08-03-2008, 02:02 PM
I don't think it is that outlandish an idea...children lose privileges when they misbehave...the cushy sofa is just that.

That's fine. But you don't take away piviledges when your kid studies hard and still comes home with a C. Some kids just aren't that smart -- you punish a lack of effort, not a lack of talent.

The Reds suffer predominantly from the latter. Taking away a sofa won't fix that.

RFS62
08-03-2008, 02:14 PM
As punishment for writing that drivel Daugherty should have his office chair taken away and be forced to sit on a folding chair.

And his good crayons should be taken away and he should have to write his columns with fingerpaint.

Maybe that will straighten him out.

Patrick Bateman
08-03-2008, 02:20 PM
If your kid gets bad grades, would you take away his Wii if you found him to be playing it instead of studying?

These are freaking men. You don't see the difference in punishing a kid that needs to learn and a full grown adult?

These guys spend 10 hours a day at that place with plenty of physical activity. Taking away couches and other things that help relax the players because they aren't very good at baseball is insane.

letsgojunior
08-03-2008, 02:24 PM
And his good crayons should be taken away and he should have to write his columns with fingerpaint.



You're going to take away the Crayola 64 pack? Harsh dude.

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 02:29 PM
These are freaking men. You don't see the difference in punishing a kid that needs to learn and a full grown adult?

These guys spend 10 hours a day at that place with plenty of physical activity. Taking away couches and other things that help relax the players because they aren't very good at baseball is insane.

Discipline is key in a team sport. That's why guys like Chris Henry, TO, Manny, Carl Everett and others tend to be looking for work more often than their talent would typically dictate. Give people an inch and they take a yard. Give them a couch and maybe they abuse it and take it to the next level. I'm not there to witness what actually goes on, but I wouldn't be shocked if this were the case.

Patrick Bateman
08-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Discipline is key in a team sport. That's why guys like Chris Henry, TO, Manny, Carl Everett and others tend to be looking for work more often than their talent would typically dictate. Give people an inch and they take a yard. Give them a couch and maybe they abuse it and take it to the next level. I'm not there to witness what actually goes on, but I wouldn't be shocked if this were the case.

Those 4 players were complete and utter horses asses long before they saw a major sports field.

It's a couch. If they don't relax on a couch, then they will sit in a chair. If it's not a chair, maybe it's a bench. If you give them nothing, you have a bunch of players pissed off at everyone because they are treated like children. Respect is a 2 way street, if you want Baker to have respect in his clubhouse, he needs to treat the bulk of the players like adults. That means they can sit down where ever they damn well please. A couch isn't going to stop people from practicing and learning. If they aren't doing the work, it's because they don't care, not because they have a place to relax.

wolfboy
08-03-2008, 02:43 PM
Discipline is key in a team sport. That's why guys like Chris Henry, TO, Manny, Carl Everett and others tend to be looking for work more often than their talent would typically dictate. Give people an inch and they take a yard. Give them a couch and maybe they abuse it and take it to the next level. I'm not there to witness what actually goes on, but I wouldn't be shocked if this were the case.

Chris Henry was only accused of abuse of a couch. He was later acquitted.

AtomicDumpling
08-03-2008, 04:00 PM
Only non-athletic geeks like Daugherty think chemistry is important.

Manny Ramirez is one of the worst clubhouse cancers in baseball history, yet the Red Sox won two World Series during his tenure.

Cicero
08-03-2008, 04:08 PM
One of the radio wind bags started saying the "change the culture" crap last year and it was parroted on this and other sites for weeks.

The team does not need a new "culture," it needs more talent.

VR
08-03-2008, 04:49 PM
If your kid gets bad grades, would you take away his Wii if you him to be playing it instead of studying?

IF there is a perception of laziness within the team, why not just address it?


If you don't have leadership that lines out expectations....and then holds people accountable, you'll have this .25 psychology degree crap like taking away a couch.

How about approaching Jack Smith when he's on the couch instead of doing his running/ outfield work/ watching tapes and saying

Hey Jack, you are a leader on this team that everyone looks to. We've lost 10in a row, and I expect everyone to be more focused on working on things in their games, or watching tapes with the younger guys to help us all be more prepared for today's game. Watching cartoons on the couch for two hours every afternoon doesn't match that expectation"



But no, let's say nothing, and take that darn couch away. pffft.

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 05:20 PM
Only non-athletic geeks like Daugherty think chemistry is important.

Manny Ramirez is one of the worst clubhouse cancers in baseball history, yet the Red Sox won two World Series during his tenure.

Wow....chemistry isn't important? Seriously?

Ron Madden
08-03-2008, 05:26 PM
Paul Daugherty writes these articles and says this stuff on the radio, thousands of Reds Fans read/hear this junk and believe it.

Thats scary.

Matt700wlw
08-03-2008, 05:35 PM
The team does not need a new "culture," it needs more talent.

I think it's need both.

coachw513
08-03-2008, 07:15 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080803/COL03/808030431/1071

Couldn't agree more, and I'm glad at least one writer has the guts to say it...

Without reading the thread yet, (just PD's article)...this is clearly a veiled message that Dunn need not be re-signed...his name LOUDLY being unmentioned during the piece...and for that, I simply shrug at the notion...further, after watching WJ's interview with GGrande this weekend (Friday, I guess??) I'm more and more convinced that management agrees with this assesment...my gut tells me that the reasoning is:

1. Dunn is who he is and Dusty's seeming inability to feel comfortable in utilizing his unique skills (and deficiencies) is alarming to the FO
2. Dunn's laid-back nature is the dominant type personality in a clubhouse that desperately needs a shake-up (once again, my perception of a developing FO "take" on this)
3. The desire to "change" the club's losing ways is taking precedence over statistical value (ie, "We need to clean house...not resigning Dunn is a big step in that direction")

I do believe there is a need for culture change in Cincinnati...too many players resurrect careers once leaving here, too many different managers, GM's and players leaving the same footprints in the sand year-after-year...

But it's the chicken vs egg debate...what comes first, a winning culture (ie, "lose the couch") or players that are talented and mature enough to win...IMHO, Daughtery's opinion is short-sighted and "footballish" in nature...baseball's uniqueness is in the grind, the 162 game, 8 month season that makes you prove your worth day in-day out...we all want to have a closed-door meeting with this team and throw chairs and "fire" guys...but the reality is we need better players and an established plan of development, recruitment, and utilization of those players...

Let Sabathia, Fielder and Braun sit on the couch and it won't be a problem...let Zambrano, Harden and Lee sit on the couch and we won't say a word...on the other hand, if you can guarantee that Patterson, Bako, Valentin and Fogg are on the couch, feel free to get rid of it immediately :D

guttle11
08-03-2008, 07:20 PM
I'm not sure I completely disagree with Doc, but I don't like the "culture" comment. He's talking attitude, approach, and atmosphere, and I pretty much agree. I believe this team lacks a killer instinct and the desire to do whatever it takes to win, and it has for a while. It has a lot of quit in it.

Does that mean Dunn has to be gone or leather recliners and couches out of the clubhouse?

Not at all.

GoReds
08-03-2008, 07:30 PM
They must have better couches on the road.

Home 30-25
Road 21-36

pahster
08-03-2008, 08:47 PM
Not improving the skills. Improving the performance.

Skill drives performance. Couches do not influence skill.

traderumor
08-03-2008, 08:48 PM
I'm pretty sure Walt and Bob are reading this article, scratching their chins, smacking themselves on the forehead (and not for wishing they had a V8) and wondering why they hadn't figured this out before The Vulture.

I'm pretty sure whether or not his readers eat up this garbage is not going to affect the actions of the front office.

GAC
08-03-2008, 08:49 PM
Thank God I quit reading Daugherty long ago.

Get rid of the couch and get one of these.....

http://www.geocities.com/signemickey/bedofnails.jpg

You make an error, muff a play, can't get the bunt down, leave men stranded.

You're gonna get nailed! ;)

edabbs44
08-03-2008, 09:02 PM
Skill drives performance. Couches do not influence skill.

Call it what you want. All I know is that this team has mailed it in. Maybe something as unorthodox as this would wake one or two people up.

mbgrayson
08-03-2008, 09:28 PM
They must have better couches on the road.

Home 30-25
Road 21-36


Yeah, clearly what is really needed is to pack this couch up and take it on the road with them.

Maybe we should measure how much time each player spends on the couch and see if there is a correlation to performance. Couchistics. It would be nice to know if a guy had used the couch when he failed to run full speed to first....

Perhaps we should get rid of the dugout benches and put a really long couch in there too.

oneupper
08-03-2008, 09:40 PM
I think the relevant question is:

Why does Haverty's hate the Reds?

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/image/Havertys/0-2500-0044?op_sharpen=1&wid=210&hei=163

I have a couch exactly like that in my living room...LOL

*BaseClogger*
08-03-2008, 10:10 PM
You know when you live in a blue collar town when it's supposedly the lack of hard work and not talent that affects how the team performs.

Is Cincy a blue clollar town?

*BaseClogger*
08-03-2008, 10:19 PM
Wow....chemistry isn't important? Seriously?

It's serverly overrated. Is baseball even that much of a team sport (in the sense that football, basketball, and soccer are)?

OldXOhio
08-03-2008, 10:24 PM
Did you guys even bother reading the column?



He knows talent is the bottom line, but he also knows the lousy defense, preparation, mental approach and lack of consistent effort go beyond talent. This team's ceiling wasn't exceptionally high because of the talent, but they haven't approached that ceiling because of a number of things that go beyond talent.

You can't snap your fingers and change the talent part of it. That takes time. But you can do something about the other stuff. That was supposed to be one of the reasons Dusty was hired -- he had the gravitas to challenge the status quo and stand up to the Juniors and Dunns and the culture they had created. But he hasn't done it.

Daugherty isn't saying the couch is the problem. He's saying it's a symbol of one of the problems with this team -- a problem that has been here for too many years. And if you can't see that, you aren't watching very closely.



I'm pretty sure most of you didn't get to this line. This is exactly right.

I appreciate Erardi's statistical analysis, but I also think Doc for years has had a handle on the problem with the clubhouse environment around this team. Pointing out one problem doesn't mean he isn't aware of the other.

Well done Celtic. I listened to Doc's show the other night and the couch thing was just a single example he referenced among several of what's wrong with the team. Doc acknowledged that. Just because he makes mention of a single item in his column doesn't mean he doesn't understand the main deficiencies this team has.

pahster
08-03-2008, 10:25 PM
Call it what you want. All I know is that this team has mailed it in. Maybe something as unorthodox as this would wake one or two people up.

It seems more likely that the Reds are failing to win games because they're a team full of poor players. Couches don't factor into it.

M2
08-03-2008, 11:56 PM
He knows talent is the bottom line, but he also ...

... has a deadline. If you know the team doesn't have the talent, then why on earth obsess about furniture? It's nonsensical.

If the Reds weren't built to win, then they don't have the record they have because of a lax attitude. Daugherty just doesn't have anything new or incisive to say about the franchise, so he's recycling the "the problem is they're lazy bums" diatribe.

FWIW, a lot of folks would tell you the Reds have played above their heads during much of this slide. They're 16 wins better than their pythag since 2001 and they've managed 90+ losses only three times despite having 100-loss talent in many seasons (particularly 2004 and 2005, where the record did not reflect the truly horrific nature of the team).

As perpetual loser franchises go, the Reds work pretty hard and put up more of a fight than many of their counterparts. Sometimes I wonder if the real problem with the Reds is that they've never quite hit bottom

Chip R
08-03-2008, 11:59 PM
Paul Daugherty writes these articles and says this stuff on the radio, thousands of Reds Fans read/hear this junk and believe it.

Thats scary.


Exactly. I believe I heard him and callers talking the other night about couches when I was coming home from or going to work. I was guessing that they were talking about a couch in the Reds clubhouse but wasn't sure why the subject was brought up at all. Sounds like Daugherty felt he had such good response to the subject on his show, that he decided to wrote a column about it. I'm not sure he even believes it but it certainly got a good response both pro and con and that's what he was shooting for, IMO

Caveat Emperor
08-04-2008, 12:01 AM
As perpetual loser franchises go, the Reds work pretty hard and put up more of a fight than many of their counterparts. Sometimes I wonder if the real problem with the Reds is that they've never quite hit bottom

Agreed -- I think the real culprit is that little blips of overachievement (sometimes lasting months) give people unrealistic expectations about what is possible.

That leads to owners doing crazy things like firing a GM before the May sweeps.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 12:05 AM
Let Sabathia, Fielder and Braun sit on the couch and it won't be a problem...


I'm not sure you can get Braun on the couch if both CC and Prince are on there.

It may appear they have mailed it in but I don't think that's the case. To fans, when a team plays bad - especially if they haven't been winning much all year - it looks that way. When the team goes on a winning streak, they all look like they are playing hard and giving 110%

KronoRed
08-04-2008, 12:09 AM
I'm not sure you can get Braun on the couch if both CC and Prince are on there.


Someone is sitting in someone else's lap, and I don't wanna know anything about it :eek:

WVRedsFan
08-04-2008, 12:29 AM
I repeat.

Did we not learn anything about things of this matter when Dave Miley "punished" Dunn, Griffey, et al, by taking away their lounge chairs?

It made no difference then and it will make no difference now.

This team needs a shortstop, center fielder, catcher, and even (gasp) a third baseman who can field and hit. They also need a couple of starting pitchers and improvement in the bullpen. That's the problem.

Johnny Footstool
08-04-2008, 12:30 AM
It's human nature to focus on things that are easy to control (ike furniture) instead of dealing with the larger issues at hand.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 12:40 AM
Maybe they could move the couch behind 2nd base and that would stop some balls from going into the OF. And if a Reds player wanted to lie down on it between innings - like if he just batted, all the better.

harangatang
08-04-2008, 01:53 AM
Paul Daugherty writes these articles and says this stuff on the radio, thousands of Reds Fans read/hear this junk and believe it.

Thats scary.It is quite scary. I was discussing this article with my Dad today and he says he agrees with a caller on WLW who says that the Reds problem is lack hustle like Pete Rose (like many Reds fans). The problem with the Cincinnati media is they are playing to the blue collar types who believe all you have to do is work hard and you can anything.

RosieRed
08-04-2008, 02:24 AM
I say the Reds remove the couch. They'll continue to play just like they are now, and we can all e-mail Daugherty and tell him his stupid idea didn't work.

:)

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2008, 02:34 AM
I'd still like to see Dunn borrow the grounds crew golf cart and shuttle the players out to their positions in between innings just to tick off Daugherty. And tomorrow I would replace the couch with a bunch of vibrating reclining chairs.

RedsBaron
08-04-2008, 06:05 AM
Daugherty is obviously on the right track, but, probably because, unlike Dusty Baker, he doesn't have 1200 managerial wins to his credit, he didn't go far enough. While removing the couch probably would be enough to assure the Reds a winning record, that's not enough. Reds fans, and above all the Reds beloved media, deserve more than a mere winning record.
Daugherty should advocate flogging players with a cat-o-nine tails.
Adam Dunn would probably play defense like Willie Mays and run like Bob Hayes if he knew that after every strikeout or defensive miscue a public flogging would ensue.
Free agents would flock to Cincinnati to catch the winning spirit that only a spirited flogging can produce.

Ltlabner
08-04-2008, 06:29 AM
If there is, in fact, an attiude of laziness permeating the clubhouse, getting in the face of the players makes sense. If guys are not reviewing tape, not working with coaches, not doing work outs, not taking extra BP, not talking to the older guys, then the manager has an obligation to turn up the heat and "encourage" the players to get their act together. If the player refuses, they ought to be traded (unless, of corse, if they have such overwhelming tallent that they can perform without doing all of this. Then again, I still wouldn't be pleased with the player).

If the players are already doing all those things, and more, in an attempt to improve then you'd be a fool to increase the beatings until happyness ensues. Then it's more about motivation and encouragement.

Either way it requires a hands-on manager willing to take a guy aside and have a serrious heart to heart. A guy who has the stones to take a star player aside and drop the hammer, if needed.

Boston is often sited as a reason why "team chemistry" is a myth. Team chemistry is important to some degree, but "team tallent" is far far far more important. Get enough tallent on the field and they can be fighting like the guys from Oasis and still win.

But were not talking team chemistry, we're talking "team lazy". PDoc seems to think the problem is a lack of hustle and drive. That's the go-to excuse of anybody with a lack of imagination or understanding of what really wins baseball games. Reality shows that the problem here is lack of tallent.

And none of this has anything to do with the couch.

Dumb article.

bucksfan2
08-04-2008, 08:26 AM
But were not talking team chemistry, we're talking "team lazy". PDoc seems to think the problem is a lack of hustle and drive. That's the go-to excuse of anybody with a lack of imagination or understanding of what really wins baseball games. Reality shows that the problem here is lack of tallent.

I don't really see the lack of talent excuse working with me this year. The reds have enough talent to be competitive. They have enough talent to be sitting around .500 this year instead of 10 games below.

If talent trumps everything then why are the Cards in the thick of it when they have some of the least talent in the NL Central. Talent doesn't make you hustle on the base paths. Talent doesn't make you be in the right place at the right time. Talent doesn't make you throw the ball to the correct base or correct man.

Its a sad day in this city when the talk of the game before is the suprise of Dunn going first to thrid and sliding head first. Every game should be played the same way. The Reds have a team full of youngsters with high ceilings. They have a very good core that is being built and finally ready to contribute. What you don't want this core to adapt the bad qualities of your so called leaders.

BCubb2003
08-04-2008, 08:26 AM
You guys. You lollygag the ball around the infield. You lollygag your way down to first. You lollygag in and out of the dugout. You know what that makes you? Larry!

Lollygaggers!

Ltlabner
08-04-2008, 09:02 AM
I don't really see the lack of talent excuse working with me this year. The reds have enough talent to be competitive. They have enough talent to be sitting around .500 this year instead of 10 games below.

I agree and dissagree.

Yes, there is a core of young tallent. Except for the Redszone hysteria crowd, I think it's safe to say that most of us recognize that EE, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Burton and Phillips represent a core of young tallent that should result in the .500 plateau. They have tallent (whether that translates into sucess is a different story).

Unfortunatley, that core of tallent is surrounded by hidieous black-holes of suckatude. Players so bad that they not only produce nothing, but actually help the other team win. 20% of the total PA's by position players this year are far far far below scrub level, let alone just an average player. Patterson and Bako alone have combined for over 400 PA's of hideousness that is a drag on the total team.

Then toss in that only two starting pitchers have averaged more than 6 IP per start. Over 20 starts the starting pitcher averaged less than 5. That hurt both in tearms of horrable performance and stress on the bullpen (leading to more horrable performance).

There is simply far more bad tallent on this team then good tallent. And there's only a small amount of "average" performance. Toss in pitching woes, mental errors, the mistakes of youth and randomness and you get a hot mess.

And it doesn't help when you manager is activley hurting your chances of winning by suppressing run production and burying your productive hitters in the back of the lineup.

Edit: I don't see any amount of hustle or extra work changing this. Maybe EE fields a little better, but does that make CPat not suck as much?

westofyou
08-04-2008, 09:47 AM
Its a sad day in this city when the talk of the game before is the suprise of Dunn going first to thrid and sliding head first. Every game should be played the same way. The Reds have a team full of youngsters with high ceilings. They have a very good core that is being built and finally ready to contribute. What you don't want this core to adapt the bad qualities of your so called leaders.
Hey Kool Aid...

http://www.lasr.net/images/events/NE0401013e043.jpg

flyer85
08-04-2008, 09:51 AM
I wonder what folks would say if the Reds had a player that does the stuff the Ramirez does?

Chip R
08-04-2008, 10:13 AM
I wonder what folks would say if the Reds had a player that does the stuff the Ramirez does?


We've had a glimpse of that during the last 9 years with Jr. Not to say Jr. is in Manny's class as far as antics go but throughout his tenure here he was accused of not giving it his all and during the last 3 years, criticized for his lack of defensive prowess. I think, like most athletes, he'd be tolerated till he screwed up. Then he would be criticized until he did something good again.

bucksfan2
08-04-2008, 10:21 AM
I agree and dissagree.

Yes, there is a core of young tallent. Except for the Redszone hysteria crowd, I think it's safe to say that most of us recognize that EE, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez, Burton and Phillips represent a core of young tallent that should result in the .500 plateau. They have tallent (whether that translates into sucess is a different story).

Unfortunatley, that core of tallent is surrounded by hidieous black-holes of suckatude. Players so bad that they not only produce nothing, but actually help the other team win. 20% of the total PA's by position players this year are far far far below scrub level, let alone just an average player. Patterson and Bako alone have combined for over 400 PA's of hideousness that is a drag on the total team.

Then toss in that only two starting pitchers have averaged more than 6 IP per start. Over 20 starts the starting pitcher averaged less than 5. That hurt both in tearms of horrable performance and stress on the bullpen (leading to more horrable performance).

There is simply far more bad tallent on this team then good tallent. And there's only a small amount of "average" performance. Toss in pitching woes, mental errors, the mistakes of youth and randomness and you get a hot mess.

And it doesn't help when you manager is activley hurting your chances of winning by suppressing run production and burying your productive hitters in the back of the lineup.

Edit: I don't see any amount of hustle or extra work changing this. Maybe EE fields a little better, but does that make CPat not suck as much?

To quote you "I agree and disagree."

Every team has players that "suck". It is just going to turn out that way. Players have injuires, players get old, players don't produce, and then you have you filler players. With the exception of Patterson the Reds roster isn't that awful. They could have more talented players at several positions but they don't. Bako is what he is. As both Cueto and Volquez grow as pitchers I am sure having Bako catch them at the beginning will have been a huge boost.

The Reds haven't played to their ability this year. I don't think anyone is going to doubt that. I didn't see the Reds as a top notch team or the team to beat in the Central but if all went well I thought they had a chance to compete. I thought they were a good dark horse candidate for both the central and wild card. As it played out they have played lackluster baseball for the better half of this season and currently find themselves 10 games under.

IMO a the reds do need to change the clubhouse culture. Its not as simple as the imfamous "couch" but at the same time the "couch" may be a symbol of the problem. The core of young players looks up the the veteran leadership. If you are a young pitcher and see Harang watching film all the time what are you going to do? If you see veteran leadership working their tail off watching film, taking extra batting practice, taking infield/outfield practice, etc. what are you more likely to do?

I find it interesting that most people laugh at trying to be .500 this season. Rome wasn't built in a day. You need to take steps into building a competitive club. Confidence goes a long way in baseball. If you finish the season 82-80 rather than 70-92 a young team will have more confidence going into the next season. Never underestimate what confidence can do for a young team.

Ltlabner
08-04-2008, 10:27 AM
The Reds haven't played to their ability this year. I don't think anyone is going to doubt that.

The Reds have played exactly to their abilities. So yea, I doubt your statement.

I am getting ready to jump on a plane, however, later today I'll post some numbers for you. Bako would have to somehow help Cueto, Volquez and the entire bullpen throw nothing but perfect games to offset how bad he is at the plate. Patterson would have to catch any flyball within 50 miles of GABP to make up for the drag his bat has been.

And that's just two guys.

No amount of film watching, extra practice or coaching will keep the bad play on the team from dragging down the few bright lights we have.

Trust me, I'm all about making sure players are giving maximum effort to the game. But Votto, EE and Cueto can't improve fast enough to make up for Valentine, Patterson, Bako and Hopper.

Cyclone792
08-04-2008, 10:34 AM
To quote you "I agree and disagree."

Every team has players that "suck".

The Reds have more players that blow chunks - and they have handed over more playing time to players who blow chunks - than any winning team you'll find out there.

There is a common trait among winning teams that is often hidden, but it is likely the most common trait you'll find among winning teams ... which is that they have far fewer holes and far fewer bad players on their roster (and starting and/or receiving playing time) than losing teams.

The Reds as a team have 4,297 plate appearances on the season, of which 222 belong to pitchers. That leaves 4,075 plate appearances to position players. And you know what? Over 1,100 of those plate appearances have been handed over to players who have contributed next to nothing, nothing, or worse than nothing.

That doesn't even include the pitching staff.

Casey Stengel once said about a player "the way he's going, we'd be better off if they were hurt." You can apply that quote to a large number of players that have appeared on the Reds roster this season. Actually, you can modify that quote to something along the lines of "we'd be better off if they just disappeared."

M2
08-04-2008, 10:35 AM
It's human nature to focus on things that are easy to control (ike furniture) instead of dealing with the larger issues at hand.

Fantastic post and it's been a recurring theme with the Reds for too long.


The problem with the Cincinnati media is they are playing to the blue collar types who believe all you have to do is work hard and you can anything.

Excellent observation.


I don't really see the lack of talent excuse working with me this year. The reds have enough talent to be competitive. They have enough talent to be sitting around .500 this year instead of 10 games below.

It's true, they do have enough talent for that. And if Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo weren't having off years, that's exactly where they'd be. The crazy thing is people are angry at the part of the team that is more or less working as expected.

Anyone with a head attached to their shoulders surely recognized the Reds weren't deep heading into this season. I would think that if people had been told Harang would have a 4.76 ERA and be spending some time on the shelf and that Arroyo would have a 5.74 ERA, then most would have figured 10 games below .500 right now would just about be on track.

Of course unrealistic expectations are part and parcel of fandom (and I imagine it would be impossible for some to care about this franchise without unrealistic expectations). For instance, even though the Reds are a "young team," they're slow. Phillips and Bruce are the only two players from the pre-Jr. trade starting lineup that you'd put on a relay team. Everyone else is fairly limited on the bases. This team isn't built to go headlong after extra bases. That's only going to result in a lot of dumb outs.

It's not my preferred style of baseball. This team bores me to tears (Phillips excepted), but slow guys try just as hard as fast guys (maybe even harder). They just don't have the ability to make that effort as obvious to a fickle public.

Always Red
08-04-2008, 08:43 PM
Hal and Rick Stowe disagree with Doc:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/


While the Reds were on the road, a columnist wrote that the trouble with the Reds is the leather chairs and couches in the clubhouse and they should be removed and replaced with upright chairs.

That raised the dander of clubhouse Rick Stowe.

“Let’s see, Tampa Bay has couches in the clubhouse,” he said. “Milwaukee has couches in the clubhouse. The Chicago Cubs have recliner chairs all over the clubhouse. So I guess if you are in first place you can have couches and recliners. But if you’re in last place, you can’t have them?”

It does seem a bit ludicrous. I mean, I can’t recall the last time I saw a couch hit a home run or get picked off second base.

BCubb2003
08-04-2008, 08:53 PM
It does seem a bit ludicrous. I mean, I can’t recall the last time I saw a couch hit a home run or get picked off second base.

You have to go back pretty far. Johnny Couch was a decent pitcher for the Reds, going 16-9 in 1922.

Then there was Jim Davenport. 77 home runs, caught stealing 25 times in his career.

letsgojunior
08-04-2008, 08:54 PM
You have to go back pretty far. Johnny Couch was a decent pitcher for the Reds, going 16-9 in 1922.

Then there was Jim Davenport. 77 home runs, caught stealing 25 times in his career.


:thumbup: :beerme:

REDREAD
08-04-2008, 08:59 PM
That is the most absurd idea I've ever heard. I like some of Paul's columns, but this one stinks.

If people are not taking their job seriously, removing a couch will not help. They'll find another way to loaf.

This idea that players need to be practicing or working out 15 hours/day if the team isn't winning is silly.

letsgojunior
08-04-2008, 09:48 PM
Well, the Reds were swept by the worst team in baseball without the couch, and as soon as they returned to Cincinnati, they won again with the couch. In the spirit of the Cincinnati Enquirer’s stellar polling history, let the record reflect that, within the past week, the Reds are:

1-5 without the couch
1-0 with the couch

I vote for putting the couch on the 25 man roster at this juncture. It could probably get on base more often than Patterson.

guttle11
08-04-2008, 10:02 PM
Think we should all pitch in and get them a couple of futons? It may seem like a nice gift from great fans today, but in three years when that puppy is lumpy as heck and you can feel the frame...they'll get the message. Play hard!

OnBaseMachine
08-05-2008, 01:12 AM
From Hal McCoy:

It's the couch's fault

A columnist recently wrote that the Reds should remove the plush leather chairs and couches from the clubhouse and force the players to sit in straight-backs.

That set off clubhouse manager Rick Stowe.

"Tampa Bay has couches, Milwaukee has couches, the Chicago Cubs have a room full of lounger chairs," he said. "Does that mean you have to be in first place to have couches? If you're in last place you can't have couches?"

Baker has a new black leather couch in his office and said, "I didn't ask for it. But (Reds General Manager) Walt Jocketty really likes it."

Baker spotted two quarters between the cushions, pocketed them, then said, "Thanks, Walt. When I was a kid, my dad had a recliner and as soon as he left the house I ran to that recliner and grabbed all the change."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/08/04/ddn080508spredsnotes.html

KronoRed
08-05-2008, 03:09 AM
Maybe that was Walt's way of giving Dusty his bonus :D

Falls City Beer
08-05-2008, 10:39 AM
From Hal McCoy:

It's the couch's fault

A columnist recently wrote that the Reds should remove the plush leather chairs and couches from the clubhouse and force the players to sit in straight-backs.

That set off clubhouse manager Rick Stowe.

"Tampa Bay has couches, Milwaukee has couches, the Chicago Cubs have a room full of lounger chairs," he said. "Does that mean you have to be in first place to have couches? If you're in last place you can't have couches?"

Baker has a new black leather couch in his office and said, "I didn't ask for it. But (Reds General Manager) Walt Jocketty really likes it."

Baker spotted two quarters between the cushions, pocketed them, then said, "Thanks, Walt. When I was a kid, my dad had a recliner and as soon as he left the house I ran to that recliner and grabbed all the change."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/08/04/ddn080508spredsnotes.html


I love this. What a nice way of Dusty and Stowe saying "bugger off."

SteelSD
08-05-2008, 10:37 PM
I think Daugherty needs a change to his office environment in order to write better articles. Instead of a normal office chair, he needs a folding chair. Rather than producing his prose on a computer, he needs to go back to a manual typewriter or, at best, a word processor. His boss should berate him every day about his lack of intensity. After all, we know that the best way to manage is to continue the beatings until morale improves.

Should Daugherty be subjected to all of the above, his articles will obviously improve. The guy just has it too good and lounges around too much. The very fact that he uses a desk instead of a card table when writing his articles is symbolic of his lack of dedication and interest in his craft.

Blimpie
08-06-2008, 10:17 AM
You have to go back pretty far. Johnny Couch was a decent pitcher for the Reds, going 16-9 in 1922.

Then there was Jim Davenport. 77 home runs, caught stealing 25 times in his career....and, of course, we all know about Divan Hernandez.

Dom Heffner
08-06-2008, 12:53 PM
I have this mental picture of Paul Daugherty as a sports writer who doesn't like sports very much.

Awful combo.

Johnny Footstool
08-06-2008, 03:54 PM
I have this mental picture of Paul Daugherty as a sports writer who doesn't like sports very much.

Awful combo.

Loves sports, hates the people who play them?

Chip R
08-06-2008, 03:59 PM
Loves sports, hates the people who play them?


I can see that. I'm sure when you hang around athletes for an extended period of time, you see things that make you jaded, bitter, disillusioned and cynical.

westofyou
08-06-2008, 04:17 PM
when you hang around athletes for an extended period of time, you see things that make you jaded, bitter, disillusioned and cynical.

That or a groupie.

What's sad to me is the Reds and the local press have a pretty long run of having decent writers in town, some legendary. Lately they've been using the Post as ladder to get better jobs, we as readers really benefited out of this. Now with the Post gone the world of Reds beat writing is smaller, and when you get "columnists" in the mix it's less erudite and more pitchforks and torches.

Chip R
08-06-2008, 04:35 PM
That or a groupie.

What's sad to me is the Reds and the local press have a pretty long run of having decent writers in town, some legendary. Lately they've been using the Post as ladder to get better jobs, we as readers really benefited out of this. Now with the Post gone the world of Reds beat writing is smaller, and when you get "columnists" in the mix it's less erudite and more pitchforks and torches.


It's called "playing to your audience."

RichRed
08-06-2008, 04:56 PM
Loves sports, hates the people who play them?

Good to see Mr. Footstool weighing in on the furniture article.

westofyou
08-06-2008, 04:57 PM
It's called "playing to your audience."

http://images.entertainmentearth.com/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CDS5684lg.jpg

Ravenlord
08-06-2008, 11:51 PM
http://images.entertainmentearth.com/%5CAUTOIMAGES%5CDS5684lg.jpg

Daugherty's audience is a bunch of Jewish clowns?

;)