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Kc61
08-04-2008, 11:21 AM
Just talking offense.

Very interesting comparison this year.

EE -- .251BA/.339OBP/.484SLG/.823OPS

Cantu-.291BA/.339OBP/.486SLG/.825OPS

The OBP, SLG, and OPS numbers are virtually identical.

EE has walked 40 times and Cantu 28.
Cantu has 128 hits to 88 for EE.
Cantu has 29 doubles to 20 for EE
Home runs are 20/19 EE.

RBI is 62 to 43 for Cantu, although he's been up more and undoubtedly gets more baserunners to knock in.

I think this is an interesting comparison because the OPS numbers for both are virtually identical as are the OBP and SLG components. EE walks more. Cantu gets more hits. My preference would be for Cantu's year, but interested to see what others think.

jesusfan
08-04-2008, 11:25 AM
Cantu definitely.. Edwin would've been an awfully nice trading chip last off-season. However, virtually no one could've predicted the numbers Cantu is putting up.

RedsManRick
08-04-2008, 11:27 AM
Cantu definitely.. Edwin would've been an awfully nice trading chip last off-season. However, virtually no one could've predicted the numbers Cantu is putting up.

There's the key phrase. Clearly they've been comparable so far. But hindsight is 20/20. Cantu could have just as easily been another Corey Patterson.

Team Clark
08-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Cantu definitely.. Edwin would've been an awfully nice trading chip last off-season. However, virtually no one could've predicted the numbers Cantu is putting up.

Sure you could have. Cantu had been hurt. Now he is putting up numbers similar to those when he was healthy in Tampa Bay. He produced when healthy here too.

RedEye
08-04-2008, 11:33 AM
I know people like to rip on Edwin's defense here, but even with the range-induced errors he makes, I have to like his all-around game much more than Cantu's. Yes, Jorge has put together a nice, unexpected set of numbers this year, but that doesn't change the fact that the guy really doesn't have a position other than 1B or DH. Since the Reds have got Votto manning first for the foreseeable future, I don't think Cantu really would have had a role on this team other than benchwarmer.

I know this thread is "just talking offense," but I'm not sure we can abstract the two parts of the game like that when talking about value to the team.

Highlifeman21
08-04-2008, 11:34 AM
I prefer EE's plate approach. While looking up the P/PA, I noticed that while EE has the career advantage (3.79 to 3.60), Cantu certainly has been as good, if not better than EE in that department the last few years.


EE vs Cantu - P/PA

Year P/PA
EE 2005 3.99
2006 3.84
2007 3.70
2008 3.75

Cantu 2004 3.75
2005 3.29
2006 3.69
2007 3.77
2008 3.83


The quandry stems from if Cantu is seeing as many, if not more, pitches per PA as EE, why is he walking drastically less? Also, is EE contact impaired (and no, not in the Drew Stubbs sense), or is EE just more selective?

nate
08-04-2008, 11:42 AM
EE: $450k
Cantu: $500k with the Marlins but how much would he have cost the Reds in arbitration?

Kc61
08-04-2008, 11:42 AM
I know this thread is "just talking offense," but I'm not sure we can abstract the two parts of the game like that when talking about value to the team.

Neither of these guys will be a Gold Glove finalist this year.

Raisor
08-04-2008, 11:55 AM
Runs Created
EE 57.3. 401 TPA 14.29 per 100 PA

Cantu 70.1, 478 TPA, 14.66 per 100 PA

Hoosier Red
08-04-2008, 11:58 AM
I know people like to rip on Edwin's defense here, but even with the range-induced errors he makes, I have to like his all-around game much more than Cantu's. Yes, Jorge has put together a nice, unexpected set of numbers this year, but that doesn't change the fact that the guy really doesn't have a position other than 1B or DH. Since the Reds have got Votto manning first for the foreseeable future, I don't think Cantu really would have had a role on this team other than benchwarmer.

I know this thread is "just talking offense," but I'm not sure we can abstract the two parts of the game like that when talking about value to the team.

But compared to other 3b in the NL, his range isn't that great. In fact I think SMcGavin posted something on his range factor being 14th in the NL.

RedEye
08-04-2008, 12:23 PM
But compared to other 3b in the NL, his range isn't that great. In fact I think SMcGavin posted something on his range factor being 14th in the NL.

Huh. I hadn't read that. Well, anyway, my sense is that Cantu would be even worse... so he still wouldn't have a place to play, right?

OnBaseMachine
08-04-2008, 12:25 PM
While EdE isn't exactly a gold glover at third base, I've watched enough of him and Cantu to form the opinion that Cantu is no where near the defender that EdE is. That's how awful Cantu is defensively. EdE makes the tough plays and botches the easy ones, whereas Cantu can't make the tough plays and botches the easy ones. Dude is a DH.

LoganBuck
08-04-2008, 12:46 PM
*Ducks for introducing Adam Dunn into another conversation*

Isn't it interesting that the two players that have them most power on the Reds have less PA and less PA with RISP, then comparable players on other teams. Then broadcasters and less informed fans point out how low their RBI totals are and how that they have to homer to knock someone in. (Hitting a homer is a negative in these arguments). I get sick of this, I really do.

Kc61
08-04-2008, 12:46 PM
While EdE isn't exactly a gold glover at third base, I've watched enough of him and Cantu to form the opinion that Cantu is no where near the defender that EdE is. That's how awful Cantu is defensively. EdE makes the tough plays and botches the easy ones, whereas Cantu can't make the tough plays and botches the easy ones. Dude is a DH.

Cantu probably belongs at first base or left field.

But with all the talk about the Reds' continued defensive woes, I'm not sure EE will stay at third base either. I've seen his athleticism, but his Fielding PCT is .919. I know that Fielding PCT is an imperfect measure, but .919?

.900 would be one error for every 10 chances, as I understand the stat.

Hoosier Red
08-04-2008, 01:00 PM
*Ducks for introducing Adam Dunn into another conversation*

Isn't it interesting that the two players that have them most power on the Reds have less PA and less PA with RISP, then comparable players on other teams. Then broadcasters and less informed fans point out how low their RBI totals are and how that they have to homer to knock someone in. (Hitting a homer is a negative in these arguments). I get sick of this, I really do.

Chris Welsh brought this up yesterday, you could've knocked me over with a feather.

fearofpopvol1
08-04-2008, 01:02 PM
Sure you could have. Cantu had been hurt. Now he is putting up numbers similar to those when he was healthy in Tampa Bay. He produced when healthy here too.

I think this is an important (and probably overlooked) point. Not to mention, he was only seeing part-time PT. With that said, I don't think I would've envisoned a season quite this good, but still. I think he was bound to play better than what was shown last year. To have let him walk for nothing (even if putting him somewhere would've been challenging) was not smart.

Raisor
08-04-2008, 01:12 PM
BP is the only Red in the top 40 in the NL in Runners on base (he's at 15). Dunn's at 44, and people wonder why he doesn't have more RBI?

Chip R
08-04-2008, 01:23 PM
If the Reds had re-signed Cantu, he'd have been platooning with Votto at 1st so it's really not a valid comparison.

Kc61
08-04-2008, 01:23 PM
BP is the only Red in the top 40 in the NL in Runners on base (he's at 15). Dunn's at 44, and people wonder why he doesn't have more RBI?

It's a number of factors. Certainly the failure of the Reds to set the table for Dunn, EE and others is a very important factor in keeping RBIs down. No question.

But when a player's relatively high OBP is based heavily on walks rather than hits, that also plays a role. Walks contribute but they don't usually cause an RBI. So when Cantu has 40 more base hits than EE in a season, he is bound to have more RBIs.

Then there's the issue of timeliness of hitting, which I guess can be a factor, but I tend to be in the camp that believes that for most players timeliness evens out and is a reflection of overall ability -- not really a separate measure.

Team Clark
08-04-2008, 01:43 PM
If the Reds had re-signed Cantu, he'd have been platooning with Votto at 1st so it's really not a valid comparison.

Certainly can not disagree with that. I would have rather seen Cantu at the plate than Andy Phillips or Javy taking a softball cut from the right side.

Raisor
08-04-2008, 01:46 PM
But when a player's relatively high OBP is based heavily on walks rather than hits, that also plays a role. Walks contribute but they don't usually cause an RBI. So when Cantu has 40 more base hits than EE in a season, he is bound to have more RBIs.

.

The big difference in RBI this year is
1. Cantu's 77 more PA's
2. Cantu's 30 more PA's with runners on
3. Cantu's 40 more runners on base.
4. Eddie's horrible 9% OBI

I've run the numbers, if Eddie had 77 more total PA's, he'd have about 8 more RBI then he does now. That would leave 11 more RBI for 40 points of batting average (and 23 more hits)

Runs created, if Eddie had those extra 77 PA's, he'd be at 68.3 vs Cantu's 70.1


Edit: Here's how I figured those extra RBI for Eddie.
Eddie's hit a HR in 5% of his PA's. 77 more PAs would give him 4 more HR. 45.3% of his PA's have runners on base, with an average of 1.36 runners at a time. With his 9% OBI, that's another 4 RBI.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 02:20 PM
Certainly can not disagree with that. I would have rather seen Cantu at the plate than Andy Phillips or Javy taking a softball cut from the right side.


True. But then we'd never know if Votto could hit lefties. That's a reason I dislike platooning with kids.

Will M
08-04-2008, 03:12 PM
EE & Cantu are fairly similar. Good RH bats who belong at 1B or DH.

The big question is whether the Reds should have kept Cantu to play 1B and traded Votto to fill a hole elsewhere, Lord knows we have a lot of them.
Hindsight is 20/20.

Highlifeman21
08-04-2008, 04:53 PM
If we had Cantu, we never would have been treated to the enjoyment of Javy Valentin playing 3B.

So in that respect, I'm glad we don't have Cantu. I would have missed history in the making in the Bronx.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 10:44 PM
Sure you could have. Cantu had been hurt. Now he is putting up numbers similar to those when he was healthy in Tampa Bay. He produced when healthy here too.

2004 TB .301 .341 .462 .803
2005 TB .286 .311 .497 .808
2006 TB .249 .295 .404 .699
2007 Cin .298 .382 .491 .873
2007 TB .207 .277 .224 .501
2008 Fla .291 .339 .486 .825
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6033

Degenerate39
08-04-2008, 10:48 PM
EE: $450k
Cantu: $500k with the Marlins but how much would he have cost the Reds in arbitration?

Could've used some of the Corey Patterson funds.

dougdirt
08-04-2008, 10:49 PM
Could've used some of the Corey Patterson funds.

But then we wouldn't have had a leadoff hitter for the first two months of the season.....

RedsManRick
08-04-2008, 10:51 PM
You would've needed to use nearly all of Patterson's money. And then you'd have to give him some of EE or Votto's AB. The latter is where the problem comes in.

Degenerate39
08-05-2008, 01:20 AM
But then we wouldn't have had a leadoff hitter for the first two months of the season.....

Griffey said he wanted to lead off I believe.

WVRedsFan
08-05-2008, 02:03 AM
One of the things I liked best about Wayne Krivsky was he could pick some great players and get them for almost nothing. His biggest flaw was making crucial mistakes in putting a roster together. Given the options of having a Joey Votto, a rising young star at first base, he decided to keep Scott Hatteberg and DFA Jorge Cantu. I'll never understand this.

Hatteberg was rescued off the trash pile -- a player no one wanted, and he performed for the Reds. The trouble was, his couldn't hit lefties. So, your young first baseman is also a leftie and has no record against LHP in the majors and you keep a backup who can't hit the southpaw. Cantu hits right handers at a good pace and kills lefties historically. Of course, Votto has hit lefties very well, but no one knew that. Sure, Cantu would have cost more, but how much did we eat when we DFA'd Hatteberg?

Sure, Cantu is not a plus fielder, but I can see how he would have been useful at other positions along with his considerable pop from the bat, a weakness we see every day with this team, which only could manufacture 4 hits tonight in a win. OTOH, we discount EdE's fielding for some reason while looking at his numbers and proclaiming that he is the only solution at third base.

It just looked like a bad move to me. I admit I've grown tired of Ecarnacion's lapses in fielding and hitting over the last two years and admire Cantu's offensive contribution and what it would mean to a team hungry for offense, but I cannot see where Cantu is as much a liability in the field as Encarnacion is to the Reds. On this team, as it sits on this day in August, 2008, and if I have to play one or the other at third base, i'd take Cantu every time.

Ltlabner
08-05-2008, 07:44 AM
On this team, as it sits on this day in August, 2008, and if I have to play one or the other at third base, i'd take Cantu every time.



# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAP
1. 2008 E Encarnacion 25 401 .288 .339 .484 15.7 8.6
1. 2007 E Encarnacion 24 560 .268 .356 .438 20.3 -0.3
13.2006 E Encarnacion 23 467 .359 .473 17.0


AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAP
4. 2008 Jorge Cantu 26 478 .282 .339 .486 26.2 5.7
10. 2007 Jorge Cantu 25 68 .292 .382 .491 4.1 1.2
22. 2007 Jorge Cantu 25 65 .176 .277 .224 -5.1 -6.5
2. 2006 Jorge Cantu 24 448 .295 .404 3.0


I have become convinced that if Edwins issues weren't the highly visual and often ill-timed throwing errors he would be lauded. EE is to throwing errors as Dunn is to strike-outs.

Sure, if you compare this moment in time you'd take Cantu, but then again you can pick out thousands of individual moments in time and find a "better player" for any position, so what sense does that make?

Cantu's 2008 is shiney so far (and the numbers for he and EE both as 3b). But he was awol in 2007 and couldn't find first base with any regularity in 2006. I believe the 2006 & 2007 numbers for Cantu are based on 1B so it's harder to compare the VORP (which is based on position) and RAP directly to EE.

VORP is saying Cantu was no better than a scrub replacement in 2006/7 at 1st, meanwhile EE chugged right along at 3rd. RAP is the runs he creates (adjusted for a bunch of stuff) compared to other *average* first basemen. Because the numbers are squed by all the other power hitting 1bs I woln't ding Cantu too hard, however, his 2008 RAP is for 3B and EE is scoring 3 runs more than and average third basebmen than Jorge.

I'm with FCB in that defense is best judged by the eyes with the metrics currently available. He muffs some throws, but he also makes some solid plays. Do they ballance out...I say yes. Would be helped with a stud SS covering more ground? Probably, but then again, everyone would.

I just can't believe EE gives back all the runs he scores with his throwing errors. And with this team, they need all the runs they can get. They need a massive injection of good defense too, but I'd rather put time into the CF, SS and C we desperatley need, instead of adding another "to-do" item to Walt's list.

nate
08-05-2008, 07:51 AM
Cantu was released, not DFA.

Kc61
08-05-2008, 08:31 AM
[QUOTE=Ltlabner;1711217]
# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAP
1. 2008 E Encarnacion 25 401 .288 .339 .484 15.7 8.6
1. 2007 E Encarnacion 24 560 .268 .356 .438 20.3 -0.3
13.2006 E Encarnacion 23 467 .359 .473 17.0


AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAP
4. 2008 Jorge Cantu 26 478 .282 .339 .486 26.2 5.7
10. 2007 Jorge Cantu 25 68 .292 .382 .491 4.1 1.2
22. 2007 Jorge Cantu 25 65 .176 .277 .224 -5.1 -6.5
2. 2006 Jorge Cantu 24 448 .295 .404 3.0


I have become convinced that if Edwins issues weren't the highly visual and often ill-timed throwing errors he would be lauded. EE is to throwing errors as Dunn is to strike-outs.

[QUOTE]


Funny, I tend to think the opposite. That the Reds have been extremely patient with EE and that most teams, particularly the usual contending teams, would have either moved his position or traded him by now.

It's not only the defense, but also the streakiness at the plate. The last three seasons have included several long slumps. He's far from a consistent hitter. All players have slumps, but some are more consistent than others.

EE's age helps him, he's still a young player with talent. The Reds have obviously decided that 2008 is the full shot for EE, let him play every day, through the slumps and problems. But would a winner still have him?

As for Cantu, according to some posters here he's been injured in previous years. Obviously the Marlins have decided to live with his defense in order to have his bat, which has been excellent this year.

nate
08-05-2008, 09:08 AM
It's not only the defense, but also the streakiness at the plate. The last three seasons have included several long slumps. He's far from a consistent hitter. All players have slumps, but some are more consistent than others.

What sort of stat set is indicative of a consistent hitter?

Seriously!

RedsManRick
08-05-2008, 09:10 AM
What sort of stat set is indicative of a consistent hitter?

Seriously!

Hey, that's my line! But, yeah -- if you're going to assert consistency, you should at least present some evidence comparing EE to average.

nate
08-05-2008, 09:30 AM
Hey, that's my line! But, yeah -- if you're going to assert consistency, you should at least present some evidence comparing EE to average.

If we keep asking, maybe we'll eventually find out.

It's a freaking quest!

nate
08-05-2008, 09:58 AM
My buddy, who's a math professor, suggested ordering this (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118795434/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0) article. Abstract:


When an individual player or team enjoys periods of good form, and when these occur, is a widely observed phenomenon typically called 'streakiness'. It is interesting to assess which team is a streaky team, or who is a streaky player in sports. Such competitors might have a large number of successes during some periods and few or no successes during other periods. Thus, their success rate is not constant over time. We provide a Bayesian binary segmentation procedure for locating changepoints and the associated success rates simultaneously for these competitors. The procedure is based on a series of nested hypothesis tests each using the Bayes factor or the Bayesian information criterion. At each stage, we only need to compare a model with one changepoint with a model based on a constant success rate. Thus, the method circumvents the computational complexity that we would normally face in problems with an unknown number of changepoints. We apply the procedure to data corresponding to sports teams and players from basketball, golf and baseball.

Sounds like a real page-turner!

Kc61
08-05-2008, 10:17 AM
What sort of stat set is indicative of a consistent hitter?

Seriously!

Well, nate had a suggestion if someone has extra reading time. There are undoubtedly ways in which a statistician could do this. In my case, I have reviewed EE's performance over the years and seen the hot and cold streaks.

One other stat about EE as compared with Cantu and others. With RISP this year, he is batting .205 with a slugging average of .301. Cantu is .277BA and .339 SLG. EE has a .656 OPS with RISP. Cantu has a .685.

Cantu's OPS is better with RISP, but both are among the lowest as compared to other starting NL third basemen.

RedsManRick
08-05-2008, 10:20 AM
Well, nate had a suggestion if someone has extra reading time. There are undoubtedly ways in which a statistician could do this. In my case, I have reviewed EE's performance over the years and seen the hot and cold streaks.

KC, nobody denies that EE has hot and cold streaks. That's not in question. What is in question is how his streaks compare to those of other players. Every player is streaky -- it's a question of how streaky. And unless you can show he's more streakier than average, it's not an insightful observation. Of course he's streaky, he's a baseball player.

nate
08-05-2008, 10:30 AM
Well, nate had a suggestion if someone has extra reading time. There are undoubtedly ways in which a statistician could do this. In my case, I have reviewed EE's performance over the years and seen the hot and cold streaks.

Cool, you've started.

What do the hot and cold streaks look like and how do they compare to other player's hot and cold streaks?

fearofpopvol1
08-05-2008, 11:20 AM
I have become convinced that if Edwins issues weren't the highly visual and often ill-timed throwing errors he would be lauded. EE is to throwing errors as Dunn is to strike-outs.

I don't think you can really compare the 2. Throwing errors can (and usaully are) a LOT more costly than strikeouts. Ks are inevitable for most players. A ridiculous amount of throwing errors are not.

Kc61
08-05-2008, 11:29 AM
Cool, you've started.

What do the hot and cold streaks look like and how do they compare to other player's hot and cold streaks?


Let's see. In 2006 EE had a good year. But he finished with a .560 OPS for September/October. Then he started 2007 with a .554 OPS in April. Then he had a .614 OPS in July 2007. In between April and July 2007, he had better months for May and June, but below .850 OPS. Then he got hot in August and September 2007, over .900 OPS. Then he had a good start this year. Then he had a .475 OPS in May. Then he got hot. He had a 1.025 OPS in June and an almost equally hot July at .987. Now in the beginning of August he has started with an 0 for 14.

Other players? Who? I did look at Chipper Jones. In the last three years his lowest months were .779 and 784 OPS in April and June 2006 and most months are over .900. I don't see the same kinds of hitting slumps.

nate
08-05-2008, 01:12 PM
Let's see. In 2006 EE had a good year. But he finished with a .560 OPS for September/October. Then he started 2007 with a .554 OPS in April. Then he had a .614 OPS in July 2007. In between April and July 2007, he had better months for May and June, but below .850 OPS. Then he got hot in August and September 2007, over .900 OPS. Then he had a good start this year. Then he had a .475 OPS in May. Then he got hot. He had a 1.025 OPS in June and an almost equally hot July at .987. Now in the beginning of August he has started with an 0 for 14.

Other players? Who? I did look at Chipper Jones. In the last three years his lowest months were .779 and 784 OPS in April and June 2006 and most months are over .900. I don't see the same kinds of hitting slumps.

Why are you using OPS if we're talking about "hitting slumps"? Why not use BA because that's a measure of hitting without any inflation for the _kind_ of hit or other non-hit offensive production?

I think to measure this, BA is a more accurate.

I also think a month is way too coarse to measure a streak. Although EE had a crappy May, if I measure his production from April 15th to May 14, he has a .287/.342/.546 line.

I think you have to do it by AB.

Just a point of interest, using months and BA, this year, Chipper has been more streaky as a hitter than EE. Or at least has had two down months (one bad, one REALLY bad compared to EE's one really bad month.)


EE
Monthly AVG - Season AVG
Season 0.248 0.000
April 0.293 0.045
May 0.172 -0.076
June 0.294 0.046
July 0.291 0.043

0.045 Average deviation

Larry
Monthly AVG - Season AVG
Season 0.369 0.000
April 0.422 0.053
May 0.417 0.048
June 0.328 -0.041
July 0.270 -0.099

0.060 Average deviation

Note, I could be totally wrong on this as I'm a piano player and not a mathematics whiz. But I am greatly interested in the concept of streakiness.

Degenerate39
08-05-2008, 01:45 PM
But then we wouldn't have had a leadoff hitter for the first two months of the season.....

Patterson probably would've signed for 1 million. To be reunited with his dad and the fact that no one else was going to pay him.

GAC
08-05-2008, 09:33 PM
One of the things I liked best about Wayne Krivsky was he could pick some great players and get them for almost nothing. His biggest flaw was making crucial mistakes in putting a roster together. Given the options of having a Joey Votto, a rising young star at first base, he decided to keep Scott Hatteberg and DFA Jorge Cantu. I'll never understand this.

What were Hatteberg's numbers while with the Reds prior to being relegated to the bench going into the '08 season? Pretty darn impressive.

.299 BA .391 OB% .455 SLG% .846 OPS

And then there's that thing called a contract that we had to pay Scott regardless. And 1.85 mil was cheap.

Now at the time we acquired Cantu, was he putting up numbers similar to that? No. He was a question mark. That's why TB let him go so cheap.


Cantu hits right handers at a good pace and kills lefties historically.

You call a .243 BA .281 OB% .425 SLG% .706 OPS (3 year split 2005-2007) vs lefties historically killing lefties?

And in 2006 he had a .256 BA .309 OB% .387 SLG% .696 OPS vs righties.

IMO, some are making one huge mistake in their critique of Cantu. They are basing their argument on the NOW, and ignoring the THEN. It's real easy to look what the guy is doing this year for the Marlins and say "we should have held onto this guy." Real easy.

But what circumstances existed then (prior to him resurrecting his career in '08)? That's what buoyed the decisions made then.

The guy had one sound (and promising) year in 2005 while with the Rays. After that he fell on hard times. It's why the Reds were able to get him so cheap for Shackelford and Medlock. And we also got OFer Cumberland in that deal who is in our system still.

I personally don't know why the Reds even traded for the guy when they didn't even have a spot for him to begin with. Where was he going to play?

His primary position is 2B, and he wasn't going to displace Phillips.

Cantu is not a 3Bman. The Marlins know this. That's why he has been splitting time at 1B. So why are we even debating a EE/Cantu analogy at 3B?

People whined that this organization weren't being patient enough with youngster Encarnacion at 3B, and needed to be left alone and allowed to gain experience/mature there. Remember the arguments over playing Aurilia and Freel at 3B over the youngster, and how some were saying EE was getting a raw deal? So now we were going to repeat that by throwing Cantu into the mix at 3B?

And IMO, it's a lateral move move between EE and Cantu at 3B. At least offensively because EE is a better defender at 3B. But offensively....

Encarnacion..... .248 BA .336 OB% .479 SLG% .815 OPS 20 Hrs
Cantu............. .291 BA .339 OB% .486 SLG% .825 OPS 19 Hrs

Where is the great improvement/disparity? Batting average? Do we then get into the discussion that Cantu's OB% is too BA-driven, because the guy is definitely a free swinger (only 28 BBs/77 Ks). Do we need another hitter like that in the lineup? Would he provide that big of a difference?

I really don't think so.


Of course, Votto has hit lefties very well, but no one knew that.

You usually don't with prospects. That's why you make that commitment to them and play them to find out.

No one also didn't know that Cantu was going to turn things around either.


Sure, Cantu is not a plus fielder, but I can see how he would have been useful at other positions along with his considerable pop from the bat, a weakness we see every day with this team, which only could manufacture 4 hits tonight in a win.

Why do we keep drudging this up? :lol:

Again - Cantu wanted to start. Not sit the bench and be a backup to someone like Votto, whom the Reds saw as the heir-apparent at 1B, or anyone else.


but I cannot see where Cantu is as much a liability in the field as Encarnacion is to the Reds. On this team, as it sits on this day in August, 2008, and if I have to play one or the other at third base, i'd take Cantu every time.

I'll let those who are more skilled in charting the defensive matrix on players answer this one. It's not simply about errors committed though. And EE is a better defender at 3B then Cantu. I'd bet the defensive numbers stat that too.