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WVRedsFan
08-04-2008, 12:07 PM
I was reading Lance's blog for the first time in awhile, and he had this quote in bold:

"I have never wanted to win more than I do right here, and I will, but this is Wayne Krivsky's team, not Walt Jocketty's and not mine. I just hope there is enough out there after the season that we can get to help us." - Dusty Baker in Dayton Daily News

Did I miss this or was it hidden somewhere? Interesting that Dusty didn't notice that when he took the job.

RedEye
08-04-2008, 12:20 PM
Interesting indeed. Seems like Dusty makes a clear distinction between the Kriv and the Jock eras--and this would seem to suggest that the FO is doing so as well. Also seems to suggest that there may indeed be some resources to use in the offseason to get more parts for the roster. Lets hope those rumors about Sabathia are true. I would love to see the Reds be ambitious for once and really try to turn things around rather than remaining stuck between rebuilding and "contending."

Always Red
08-04-2008, 12:22 PM
Dusty's players are going to love the fact that he has given up on them, and is hoping he can find some new guys for next year.

I have no doubt Dusty made that statement for CYA purposes, and he is correct in that WK did assemble this mess, but that statement is going to make the rest of this year more difficult in the clubhouse.

RedsManRick
08-04-2008, 12:24 PM
Not Dusty's team? I suppose it was all Krivsky's idea to pursue Patterson, Bako, and Hairston?

Not Jocketty's, that's clear. But for Dusty to suggest that this isn't his crew is yet another chapter in the story of Dusty passing the buck. I'm not saying Dusty is to blame for the construction of the roster, but the man is allergic to accepting responsibility when things go wrong.

The man was carried for a decade by the greatest player of the generation, ran the Cubs in to the ground and was ousted after losing control, and now is distancing himself from the team after 4 months in Cincinnati. I simply don't understand how the man is considered a leader, let alone an elite manager.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 12:37 PM
Not Dusty's team? I suppose it was all Krivsky's idea to pursue Patterson, Bako, and Hairston?

Not Jocketty's, that's clear. But for Dusty to suggest that this isn't his crew another chapter in the story of Dusty passing the buck. I'm not saying Dusty is to blame for the construction of the roster, but the man is allergic to accepting responsibility when things go wrong.

The man was carried for a decade by the greatest player of the generation, ran the Cubs in to the ground and was ousted after losing control, and now is distancing himself from the team after 4 months in Cincinnati. I simply don't understand how the man is considered a leader, let alone an elite manager.


2/1/08 Signed C Paul Bako and LHP Scott Sauerbeck to Minor League contracts and invited them to Spring Training.

3/3/08 Signed 2B Jerry Hairston and OF Corey Patterson to Minor League contracts with invitations to Spring Training.

Check out the dates on these moves...maybe Dusty realized that Wayne's roster was horrific and tried to give him as much time as possible to rectify it on his own.

dougdirt
08-04-2008, 12:38 PM
The man was carried for a decade by the greatest player of the generation, ran the Cubs in to the ground and was ousted after losing control, and now is distancing himself from the team after 4 months in Cincinnati. I simply don't understand how the man is considered a leader, let alone an elite manager.

There are a whole lot of dumb people making important decisions in baseball.

HokieRed
08-04-2008, 12:39 PM
Seems a little excessively hard on Dusty. He had very little role in building this team, despite CP. Bako, and Hairston (one of whom's been very good, a second somewhat useful, the third, obviously, a complete loss). WJ has had next to none. I'm really excited by the quote as it suggests to me there is recognition that the team needs major overhaul, a point I'm in complete agreement with.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 12:46 PM
Dusty's players are going to love the fact that he has given up on them, and is hoping he can find some new guys for next year.

I think Dusty could make a case that the team gave up on the season first.

westofyou
08-04-2008, 12:49 PM
Seems a little excessively hard on Dusty.

Sure, he's the whipping boy here and all that stuff he's done is obviously just stuff that ain't worth giving him credit for I get that, but to me he's just like any other baseball guy stupid to some a genius to others.

The disdain for his career in the game is laughable IMO.

Kc61
08-04-2008, 12:58 PM
Sure, he's the whipping boy here and all that stuff he's done is obviously just stuff that ain't worth giving him credit for I get that, but to me he's just like any other baseball guy stupid to some a genius to others.

The disdain for his career in the game is laughable IMO.

Fine post.

M2
08-04-2008, 01:06 PM
http://www.visitingdc.com/images/bwi-bus.jpg

Anyone see Krivsky under there?

princeton
08-04-2008, 01:08 PM
"This is Wayne Krivsky's manager and not Walt Jocketty's. I just hope there is a manager out there after the season that we can get to help us"

--princeton

RedsManRick
08-04-2008, 01:10 PM
Sure, he's the whipping boy here and all that stuff he's done is obviously just stuff that ain't worth giving him credit for I get that, but to me he's just like any other baseball guy stupid to some a genius to others.

The disdain for his career in the game is laughable IMO.

Speaking for myself, my disdain is not for Dusty's career. It is for characterizations of his career that suggest he's something he's not. It's for suggestions that a team's record, in isolation of reasonable expectations, is a fair measuring stick for managerial ability. It's for dismissing routine poor decisions. It's for substituting affability and experience for skill and good judgment.

Dusty had a very nice playing career and has been the manager of a number of good teams. He has many positive qualities and clearly some managerial skill. But to suggest that he thusly beyond reproach is laughable. We can judge his actions in a Reds uniform on their merits. If Dusty deserves credit for his winning seasons in San Fransisco and Chicago, I think it's only fair to assign him some portion of the blame in Cincinnati. Even strictly limiting our judgment to those things which are directly under his influence, 2008 has hardly been a success. Nobody has suggested that this season is all, or even mostly Dusty's fault. Even .500 seemed like a stretch goal at the outset. But that doesn't absolve him of responsibility for his contributions to the season this has become.

RedRoser
08-04-2008, 01:15 PM
"This is Wayne Krivsky's manager and not Walt Jocketty's. I just hope there is a manager out there after the season that we can get to help us"

--princeton

Excellent, princeton, just excellent! :D

Cooper
08-04-2008, 01:15 PM
Dead men tell no tales.

I'm sure Dusty would've been the first to congradulate Wayne K. if things worked out.

westofyou
08-04-2008, 01:17 PM
Dusty had a very nice playing career and has been the manager of a number of good teams. He has many positive qualities and clearly some managerial skill.

You think all that?

Could have fooled me.


But to suggest that he thusly beyond reproach is laughable.

I never said he was beyond criticizing, I said it was laughable the amount of disdain he has heaped upon him.

Which has been happening day in and day out in dump truck proportions since he was inked. I find it boring actually.

flyer85
08-04-2008, 01:22 PM
Dusty was the wrong hire for the 2008 Reds... this was never going to be the type of team that would play to his strengths, instead it was just going to put a spotlight his weaknesses.

It is interesting that Dusty seems to be passing the buck, of course that is easy to do when the guy everyone is blaming is no longer around.

WVRedsFan
08-04-2008, 01:32 PM
I didn't post this to reprise the old Krivsky argument. What I thought was interesting is that people in the FO are realizing what a mess this roster is and want to change that. That's big. My comment that Dusty should have known what he was getting into was simply that.

I still feel better that just maybe Jocketty realizes the job ahead and that it will take major surgery.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 01:41 PM
I didn't post this to reprise the old Krivsky argument. What I thought was interesting is that people in the FO are realizing what a mess this roster is and want to change that. That's big. My comment that Dusty should have known what he was getting into was simply that.

I still feel better that just maybe Jocketty realizes the job ahead and that it will take major surgery.

Perhaps he did but he wanted to get back into managing in the worst way and it looks like he did. ;) Beggars can't be choosers.

princeton
08-04-2008, 01:52 PM
What I thought was interesting is that people in the FO are realizing what a mess this roster is and want to change that.

what I find interesting is that Paris Hilton is coaching the Reds: "I can't work with this"



I still feel better that just maybe Jocketty realizes the job ahead and that it will take major surgery.

odd thing is that it doesn't require major surgery. but if Dusty can't work with what's here, then it's best to perform one more arthroscopy to remove him. somebody get Doc Hollywood on the phone.

WVRedsFan
08-04-2008, 02:40 PM
what I find interesting is that Paris Hilton is coaching the Reds: "I can't work with this"

You might say it could be damning, but I didn't say that. :)



odd thing is that it doesn't require major surgery. but if Dusty can't work with what's here, then it's best to perform one more arthroscopy to remove him. somebody get Doc Hollywood on the phone.
That varies among people. Some would say getting real MLB centerfielder, shortstop, a starter, and maybe even a leftfielder is major surgery. To some, the kids on the farm can fill in. Who knows?

princeton
08-04-2008, 03:22 PM
I think that I'd make the lost quote the last quote.

M2
08-04-2008, 03:26 PM
what I find interesting is that Paris Hilton is coaching the Reds: "I can't work with this"

That's a very good point.

Baker needs to manage the team he's got, not the team he wants.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 03:30 PM
That's a very good point.

Baker needs to manage the team he's got, not the team he wants.


Perhaps he is hoping he gets the team he wants over the offseason.

registerthis
08-04-2008, 03:34 PM
http://www.visitingdc.com/images/bwi-bus.jpg

Anyone see Krivsky under there?

Hey, I took that bus to BWI a couple of weeks ago.

$3 from the Greenbelt Metro to the terminal doors at BWi--can't beat that!

But that's a tad off-topic, I guess...

hebroncougar
08-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Baker quote from spring training (Must have been a different Dusty Baker):

If you think Baker was oblivious to the surplus of young talent when he signed a three-year deal in October, guess again.

"Heck yeah, that was one of the things that sold me," Baker said. "It was one of the things that sold me [with the Cubs]. Before I go someplace, I ask somebody to research for me what they got coming."

M2
08-04-2008, 04:02 PM
Perhaps he is hoping he gets the team he wants over the offseason.

I'm sure he, but he ought to be careful. The last time he got that it was the 2006 Cubs.

icehole3
08-04-2008, 04:16 PM
Who was the coach who said I cant take your's and beat mine? Was it Bear Bryant?

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 04:17 PM
Baker quote from spring training (Must have been a different Dusty Baker):

If you think Baker was oblivious to the surplus of young talent when he signed a three-year deal in October, guess again.

"Heck yeah, that was one of the things that sold me," Baker said. "It was one of the things that sold me [with the Cubs]. Before I go someplace, I ask somebody to research for me what they got coming."

"What they got coming", not "what they have currently in place". Big difference.

Chip R
08-04-2008, 04:18 PM
Who was the coach who said I cant take your's and beat mine? Was it Bear Bryant?


It was said about the Bear. Something like "He can take his'n and beat your'n and he can take your'n and beat his'n."

flyer85
08-04-2008, 04:20 PM
Who was the coach who said I cant take your's and beat mine? Was it Bear Bryant?it was a Bum Phillips quote about Bear Bryant.


“Bryant can take his and beat yours, and then he can turn around and take yours and beat his.”

icehole3
08-04-2008, 04:41 PM
thx, I'd like to think guys like Sparky, Weaver, Stengel, Alston, LaRussa could probably say that

hebroncougar
08-04-2008, 04:54 PM
"What they got coming", not "what they have currently in place". Big difference.

What they got coming is what is currently in place. There's not much more coming.

princeton
08-04-2008, 04:56 PM
Dusty can add Barry Bonds to his and beat yours, or he can add Barry Bonds to yours and beat his.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 05:15 PM
What they got coming is what is currently in place. There's not much more coming.

But they can be expected to get better.

gm
08-04-2008, 06:38 PM
Dusty, to Jocketty

"Blow it up Walt, make it my own"

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 06:56 PM
Dusty, to Jocketty

"Blow it up Walt, make it my own"

Yeah he wants a one through eight where he can sit by and chew on tooth picks and win, something most of us could win with, then somehow he is to get the glory for being a great manager. If he actually has to manage he gets into trouble and it exploits his weaknesses. Like flyer says, he needs a plug n play team.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 07:07 PM
My comment that Dusty should have known what he was getting into was simply that.
I still feel better that just maybe Jocketty realizes the job ahead and that it will take major surgery.

He did not know that, he is not good at evaluating player personnel, and his disdain for statistics vs hunches hurts his chances even more. Patterson, Bako, Mercker and Hairston were a result of some players that he had seen and happened to know, other’s such as Votto, Bruce, Ross, or Freel had to take a back seat to his comfort zone for players that he is familiar with, he will shy away from players that are better if he is not familiar with them. His quotes are full of “I don’t know him, I haven’t seen him play” etc. He spent all of April, May and June using low on base percentage players up in his lineup hoping to get lucky, and hurt the offenses chances, now he wants to pass the buck.

Jocketty has his hands more than full.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 07:13 PM
Baker quote from spring training (Must have been a different Dusty Baker):

If you think Baker was oblivious to the surplus of young talent when he signed a three-year deal in October, guess again.

"Heck yeah, that was one of the things that sold me," Baker said. "It was one of the things that sold me [with the Cubs]. Before I go someplace, I ask somebody to research for me what they got coming."

Baker is a master at talking which ever way the wind is blowing, a regular spin-doctor. Watch his actions, and then see what there is to really see.

MartyFan
08-04-2008, 07:20 PM
Yeah he wants a one through eight where he can sit by and chew on tooth picks and win, something most of us could win with, then somehow he is to get the glory for being a great manager. If he actually has to manage he gets into trouble and it exploits his weaknesses. Like flyer says, he needs a plug n play team.

Which is exactly what Sparky Anderson did when he managed the Reds in the 70's...that doesn't take away from the fact that Sparky was a great manager but to be entirely honest, Mickey Mouse could have managed those teams so I don't hold this thought against Dusty.

Have I ever told you that I wish the Reds would have held onto Mac for this year? :beerme:

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 07:28 PM
Which is exactly what Sparky Anderson did when he managed the Reds in the 70's...that doesn't take away from the fact that Sparky was a great manager but to be entirely honest, Mickey Mouse could have managed those teams so I don't hold this thought against Dusty.

Have I ever told you that I wish the Reds would have held onto Mac for this year? :beerme:

Mac, Anderson and Lou had that knack like winners do, they will make that right move or make that right decision somehow, someway at times.

One thing I realize is that Rose may have never been the hits king under Dusty, because he would not have been leading off, which would have cost him AB and PA. Geronimo would have been leading off in CF, and Concepcion would have been hitting second. :)

westofyou
08-04-2008, 07:37 PM
Which is exactly what Sparky Anderson did when he managed the Reds in the 70's...

Not really, the great eight only started together in 46 games in 1976, furthermore Sparky redefined the way the BP was used in the game, that and the volatile 3rd base, CF and SS position in his early years hardly was a pencil them in and sit on your hands experience.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 07:53 PM
CF Geronimo .327
SS Concepcion .326
RF Griffey .391
LF Foster .356
1B Perez .350
C Bench .359
2B Joe Morgan .466
3B Rose .406

With Baker the 1975 Championship may never have happened. I am not so sure that Boston would not have beat Cincy with Baker as the manager in 75.

Centerfield would have led off, shortstop would have batted second, Morgan or Griffey would have batted third but not back to back, Baker would have split them up. The higher OBP batters would have been down in the order. Well the split of Morgan and Griffey would not have mattered, Anderson did that also.

I think that Baker would have lost game seven, he would have gone an inning too long with Gullet. Now I am certain of it, when he brought in Billingham for Gullet he would have made a double switch replacing Foster with Ed Armbrister. ;)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/BOS/BOS197510220.shtml

Stormy
08-04-2008, 08:41 PM
But they can be expected to get better.

Really? I haven't seen any of the young positional players take a stride forward under Dusty's tutelage. As for the predestined to fail roster, last time I checked, Petey Mac had these guys playing +2 over .500 ball for 80 games last year, with a perpetually injured Hamilton, and nothing akin to Volquez and Cueto filling out his staff behind the vets.

Dusty is a tactical and philosophical nightmare as a manager, but when his precious few areas of strength (player rapport, motivational leadership) begin to become weaknesses, he has less than nothing to offer.

On a separate note, princeton's comments throughout this thread have been stellar.

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 08:57 PM
Really? I haven't seen any of the young positional players take a stride forward under Dusty's tutelage.

The quote was that Dusty basically liked the young guys in the system. Nowhere did anyone pimp Baker's tutelage of youngsters.



As for the predestined to fail roster, last time I checked, Petey Mac had these guys playing +2 over .500 ball for 80 games last year, with a perpetually injured Hamilton, and nothing akin to Volquez and Cueto filling out his staff behind the vets.

That team wasn't "these guys". For example, Griffey, Arroyo and Harang were all very different. There were positives and negatives on both teams.

hebroncougar
08-04-2008, 09:10 PM
But they can be expected to get better.

So we just sit around and wait........and trust that Dusty can help them get better. Based on what? His track record of developing young players?? :laugh:

edabbs44
08-04-2008, 09:20 PM
So we just sit around and wait........and trust that Dusty can help them get better. Based on what? His track record of developing young players?? :laugh:

While I am not a fan of Dusty Baker and am in no way trumpeting his value as manager/developer/etc, you have completely misunderstood the direction of my posts.

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 11:18 PM
Check out the dates on these moves...maybe Dusty realized that Wayne's roster was horrific and tried to give him as much time as possible to rectify it on his own.

Reds | Baker's job to include advising GMWed, 31 Oct 2007 23:17:36 -0700

John Fay, of The Cincinnati Enquirer, reports Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker will act as an adviser to general manager Wayne Krivsky on personnel matters prior to the 2008 season. "We've talked briefly - not in depth," Baker said. "We're going to talk more. We're going to talk about what we need, who's been healthy, who's been injured, try to find out why. Dissect the team as much as I can before the winter meetings. Most of that is Wayne's department. But I'm there as an adviser."

Dusty the advisor! :)

Spring~Fields
08-04-2008, 11:26 PM
"I have never wanted to win more than I do right here, and I will, but this is Wayne Krivsky's team, not Walt Jocketty's and not mine. I just hope there is enough out there after the season that we can get to help us." - Dusty Baker in Dayton Daily News



Dusty with a short memory lapse

Seems to me that he had declared that he had a hand in the making of this 2008 team, now "not mine".

Reds | Baker's job to include advising GMWed, 31 Oct 2007 23:17:36 -0700

John Fay, of The Cincinnati Enquirer, reports Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker will act as an adviser to general manager Wayne Krivsky on personnel matters prior to the 2008 season. "We've talked briefly - not in depth," Baker said. "We're going to talk more. We're going to talk about what we need, who's been healthy, who's been injured, try to find out why. Dissect the team as much as I can before the winter meetings. Most of that is Wayne's department. But I'm there as an adviser."

LoganBuck
08-05-2008, 07:27 AM
Lost Quote

"Live Together, Die Alone."

hebroncougar
08-05-2008, 09:17 AM
I was reading Lance's blog for the first time in awhile, and he had this quote in bold:

"I have never wanted to win more than I do right here, and I will, but this is Wayne Krivsky's team, not Walt Jocketty's and not mine. I just hope there is enough out there after the season that we can get to help us." - Dusty Baker in Dayton Daily News

Did I miss this or was it hidden somewhere? Interesting that Dusty didn't notice that when he took the job.

So a couple of days after being quoted saying the above (and I'm sure most in the dugout thinking, gotta love playing for a guy who says our team can't win), here is the latest quotes:

“I always want to win, no matter who I put out there,” he added. “It has been only a few seasons that I went into September and it didn’t mean anything,” Baker added. “And it’s only August.

“In our division, a lot can turn around in a hurry,” he added. “If you get hot, man, I’ve seen it. People think I’m the eternal optimist, but I can be that because I’ve seen that and done that.

“You try to finish as high as you can finish,” he said. “These are primo times for somebody. When you are playing inside your division the last two months as much as we are, well, it might as well be us.”

Inspiring words, from an obviously inspired man.

Chip R
08-05-2008, 09:19 AM
So a couple of days after being quoted saying the above (and I'm sure most in the dugout thinking, gotta love playing for a guy who says our team can't win), here is the latest quotes:

“I always want to win, no matter who I put out there,” he added. “It has been only a few seasons that I went into September and it didn’t mean anything,” Baker added. “And it’s only August.

“In our division, a lot can turn around in a hurry,” he added. “If you get hot, man, I’ve seen it. People think I’m the eternal optimist, but I can be that because I’ve seen that and done that.

“You try to finish as high as you can finish,” he said. “These are primo times for somebody. When you are playing inside your division the last two months as much as we are, well, it might as well be us.”

Inspiring words, from an obviously inspired man.


He's a regular Knute Rockne.

Tony Cloninger
08-05-2008, 11:20 AM
I think it was Bobby Layne ...who once said while coaching the Steelers...in the mid 60's.."I cannot win with these bunch of stiffs." and proceeded to quit the job before the season began.

redsmetz
08-05-2008, 12:10 PM
I'd love to see the full context of this quote. I'm curious as to what all was being discussed and how it fit into the whole conversation. I finally did track down the DDN item this was in and they just had it as this isolated quote. Great journalism!

hebroncougar
08-05-2008, 01:44 PM
I'd love to see the full context of this quote. I'm curious as to what all was being discussed and how it fit into the whole conversation. I finally did track down the DDN item this was in and they just had it as this isolated quote. Great journalism!

It was in Hal's column today, basically discussing if the Reds should "throw in the towel" and play the kids the rest of the way or not. Not sure what kids would play.

cincrazy
08-05-2008, 03:34 PM
Judging by the posts on this board, you would also think Dusty Baker is responsible for poverty, high gas prices, and the war in Iraq. Goodness gracious. I haven't been happy with every move, and he's actually disappointed me a little bit, but I don't think he's the worst manager in the game by any means.

As has been stated before, this particular team isn't good for a manager like Dusty. Hopefully, that changes in time.

RedsManRick
08-05-2008, 04:09 PM
Judging by the posts on this board, you would also think Dusty Baker is responsible for poverty, high gas prices, and the war in Iraq. Goodness gracious. I haven't been happy with every move, and he's actually disappointed me a little bit, but I don't think he's the worst manager in the game by any means.

As has been stated before, this particular team isn't good for a manager like Dusty. Hopefully, that changes in time.

Just curious -- who's worse than Dusty?

cincrazy
08-05-2008, 04:17 PM
Just curious -- who's worse than Dusty?

Is Ned Yost any better than Dusty Baker? Here's a guy who's presiding over a "hot" young team, an up and coming team, yet every year the team collapses down the stretch and decides to stage a Royal Rumble in the dugout. That's just an example, but Dusty is far from the only manager that's having trouble.

What about a guy like Terry Francona? Was never referred to as a good manager, and when the Red Sox hired him people were thinking "what the hell?" But now all of a sudden he's one of the top manager's in the game?

I think manager's get too much credit when things go right, and way too much blame when everything blows up. I'm not Dusty's biggest defender by any means, but another manager doesn't have this team in any better position IMO.

Matt700wlw
08-05-2008, 04:36 PM
Joe Torre wasn't much until the Yankees came calling...

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 04:40 PM
Judging by the posts on this board, you would also think Dusty Baker is responsible for poverty, high gas prices, and the war in Iraq.
Was he advising upon or managing any of those affairs or issues?



but I don't think he's the worst manager in the game
Just curious, can you think of better managers than Dusty?

Can you think of any that would not bat a Patterson and Janish one two in the batting order for prolonged periods of time as they complain about their team not scoring runs?


this particular team isn't good for a manager like Dusty
What particular team is good for a manager like Dusty?


Hopefully, that changes in time
What do you mean ? What changes in time would make a difference?

REDREAD
08-05-2008, 04:48 PM
Check out the dates on these moves...maybe Dusty realized that Wayne's roster was horrific and tried to give him as much time as possible to rectify it on his own.

Exactly.. These conspiracy theories are absurd.. All those guys were brought in on minor league contracts. They all made the roster based on relative merit.
If Wayne had assembled a better roster, they would not have made the team.

The buck stops with the GM. It always has. No one ever said that DanO wasn't allowed to trade an extra OF. No one ever said Bowden was forced to sign Jimmy Anderson.

Dusty can recommend whoever he wants, but in the end, it's the GM that sets the roster.

No one has ever claimed that Narron "forced" Wayne to get Hamilton, and seldom mention that a scout strongly recommended getting Philllips.. Those are all feathers in Wayne's cap (as they should be). Wayne gets praised when he follows up on a good suggestion, and should take heat on a bad move.

In the big picture though, I think Bako, Patterson, and Harrison have been useful. They aren't great players, but somebody has to fill those roles.
Dickerson would be worse than Patterson. Harriston and Bako have been useful.
In any event, those 3 players aren't the major cause of this teams bad year. They were expected to be bit players, not major contributors. You don't expect a journeyman signed to a minor league contract to be an impact player.

princeton
08-05-2008, 04:49 PM
As has been stated before, this particular team isn't good for a manager like Dusty. Hopefully, that changes in time.

easier to change the manager than to change the team

redsmetz
08-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Joe Torre wasn't much until the Yankees came calling...

I've been saying that for several years now.

REDREAD
08-05-2008, 04:55 PM
He did not know that, he is not good at evaluating player personnel, and his disdain for statistics vs hunches hurts his chances even more. Patterson, Bako, Mercker and Hairston were a result of some players that he had seen and happened to know, other’s such as Votto, Bruce, Ross, or Freel had to take a back seat to his comfort zone for players that he is familiar with, he will shy away from players that are better if he is not familiar with them. .

Who have Bruce and Votto taken a back seat too?

Wayne stuck Dusty with Hat, a vet complaining that he should be starting.
It was a bad situation caused by Wayne, not Dusty.

Bruce has played every day since he was called up. It wasn't Dusty that sent Bruce to the minors and kept him there.

Freel? Ross? Come on, those are not better players. They are dreck too.

Harriston earned his playing time. Patterson has been a backup player most of this season.

You are making unfounded accusations.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 04:57 PM
The buck stops with the GM.

The buck stops with the under funding and underestimating of what the job takes to get done, President and Chief Executive Officer and his partners Lindner, Reich and Strike. Who have under funded the team since 2001 and have compelled each general manager from Bowden forward to operate without quality players to play along side of players such as Griffey, Larkin, Dunn etc. Compelling the general managers to fill the teams with below league average players, filler and fodder, while a Walt Jocketty at St. Louis enjoyed a huge financial advantage over them.

Show us the financial numbers for the competitors St. Louis, Chicago, Houston from 2001 to 2008 in comparison to the Cincinnati Reds and explain the disparity and the effects on player personnel for each team.

REDREAD
08-05-2008, 04:58 PM
Really? I haven't seen any of the young positional players take a stride forward under Dusty's tutelage. As for the predestined to fail roster, last time I checked, Petey Mac had these guys playing +2 over .500 ball for 80 games last year, with a perpetually injured Hamilton, and nothing akin to Volquez and Cueto filling out his staff behind the vets.
.

Mac had a stellar Harang and Arroyo. Dusty hasn't.

Mac would not have a record much different than Dusty has. In fact, it might be worse, since in theory Mac's 2008 team might not have had Harriston (since Dusty brought him in, supposedly).

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 04:59 PM
You are making unfounded accusations.

I think that you are especially with the Krivsky obsession that you have. :)

REDREAD
08-05-2008, 05:00 PM
Really? I haven't seen any of the young positional players take a stride forward under Dusty's tutelage.

Votto and Bruce have not developed as expected? What about Bray? Bray has improved this year too.

What young players have not developed? Maybe Homer, but he's just not ready (and may never be).

EdE has performed better under Dusty, since Dusty doesn't constantly jerk him out of the lineup and demote him.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 05:11 PM
Who have Bruce and Votto taken a back seat too?
What was Patterson, Bako, Mercker and Hairston? Where did they come from? What's the chances of Krivsky himself and himself alone acquiring those ex-Cubs? Who blows on about speed in centerfield? How many scouts do you think recommended those players to Krivsky? Krivsky was a decent scout himself, do you think he did not know what those players were?


Wayne stuck Dusty with Hat, a vet complaining that he should be starting.
What's wrong with Hatteberg as a backup and role player ?
$1,850,000
3 year stats
.283 .371 .413 .784



Bruce has played every day since he was called up. It wasn't Dusty that sent Bruce to the minors and kept him there.
Jocketty made the move after Bakers fixation and obsession with Patterson had hurt the team for so many PA/AB
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=atBats&season=2008&split=109&seasonType=2&type=reg
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=110&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

Baker manipulated the situation in spring training to get his boy Patterson aboard, and then when callups were made his other boy Hairston was given the chances over Bruce. He pulled the same gimmick with Bako over Ross, Why was that ?




You are making unfounded accusations.
You are, your trying to defend the indefensible Dusty Baker.

Plus there are enough archive posts out there where you supported Krivsky contrary to your recent flip flopping this year. ;)

edabbs44
08-05-2008, 05:20 PM
Votto and Bruce have not developed as expected? What about Bray? Bray has improved this year too.

What young players have not developed? Maybe Homer, but he's just not ready (and may never be).

EdE has performed better under Dusty, since Dusty doesn't constantly jerk him out of the lineup and demote him.

Dude, don't you know anything? Krivsky got all the accolades when Bruce, Votto, Bailey and Cueto were ripping it up last year. Especially the pitchers. Then, when they don't pan out as expected, it's all on Dusty.

But to be real, no one should expect rookies to rip it up. The only guy I am worried about is Homer. If the other guys don't start taking steps next year, then we can rehash. But for the time being, rookies have their ups and downs. That's also why thinking this team was a contender was a bad move.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 05:21 PM
EdE has performed better under Dusty, since Dusty doesn't constantly jerk him out of the lineup and demote him.
Encarncion Fielding some might argue is worse.
.953 2.50 .777
.919 2.15 .737
2007 errors 16
2008 errors 18
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5904&context=fielding

Where does he rank in thirdbasemen in the league?

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 05:23 PM
Dude, don't you know anything? Krivsky got all the accolades when Bruce, Votto, Bailey and Cueto were ripping it up last year. Especially the pitchers. Then, when they don't pan out as expected, it's all on Dusty.


Who hasn't panned out as expected ?

Patterson ?
Bako ?
Mecrker?
Hairston?

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 05:40 PM
In the big picture though, I think Bako, Patterson, and Harrison have been useful. They aren't great players, but somebody has to fill those roles.

In any event, those 3 players aren't the major cause of this teams bad year. They were expected to be bit players, not major contributors. You don't expect a journeyman signed to a minor league contract to be an impact player.

Those 3 players were major contributors. When you indicate yourself that they should not have been, by saying "they aren't great players", and "they were expected to be bit players, not major contributors", yet Baker used them over better options for first three months of the season, until arguably the Reds were done for the season.


They were expected to be bit players, not major contributors. You don't expect a journeyman signed to a minor league contract to be an impact player.
Then why did Baker give them the majority of the PA/AB ?
Why were they playing over other players such as Bruce, Freel, Ross and Valentin ?
Why were they used in key batting and fielding positions over Bruce, Freel, Ross, and Valentin?


Batting #1
Explain why Patterson and Hairston have so many AB/PA if they were expected to...........
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=atBats&season=2008&split=109&seasonType=2&type=reg
Batting #2
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=110&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

Batting #8
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=116&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

CF
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=84&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg
C
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=78&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg
SS
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=82&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

Why was Baker using them over the other players giving them more time in the field and at the plate and at the top of the order over guys with higher on base percentages?

edabbs44
08-05-2008, 05:53 PM
Who hasn't panned out as expected ?

Patterson ?
Bako ?
Mecrker?
Hairston?

Maybe I should have said "It isn't on Wayne". Since I haven't heard anyone give any Homer flack to Krivsky.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 05:59 PM
Maybe I should have said "It isn't on Wayne". Since I haven't heard anyone give any Homer flack to Krivsky.

I am not sure that I am understanding your answer.

I asked who hasn't panned out as expected? :)

addendum

Dusty Baker ?

WVRedsFan
08-05-2008, 06:03 PM
Who hasn't panned out as expected ?

Patterson ?
Bako ?
Mecrker?
Hairston?

None of the above with the notable exeption of Hairston who keeps getting hurt.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 06:21 PM
Exactly.. These conspiracy theories are absurd.. All those guys were brought in on minor league contracts. They all made the roster based on relative merit.

Bako
Career Stats and Three Year Split Stats
Career .232 .304 .318 .623
Three Year Stats
.212 .281 .249 .530
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=3829&type=batting3

Hairston Jr.
Career .259 .329 .366 .695
Three Year Stats
.231 .301 .323 .624
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=3966&type=batting3

Patterson
Career
.254 .293 .409 .702
Three Year Stats
.254 .291 .393 .684
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=4239&type=batting3

Batting #1 Three Year Stats
.212 .256 .338 .594

I fail to see where these three players qualify under these following terms.
Please explain how they do.

Relative merit
Relative defined
1. comparative: measured or considered in comparison with each other or with something else
2. changing with circumstances: not permanently fixed, but having a meaning or value that can only be established in relation to something else and will change according to circumstances or context
"Big" and "small" are relative terms.
3. dependent on something: depending on or in proportion to something else
4. connected with something: connected with or referring to something

Merit defined
1. value: value that deserves respect and acknowledgment
a work of considerable technical and artistic merit
2. good quality: a good or praiseworthy characteristic that somebody or something has (often used in the plural)
3. ability: proven ability or accomplishment

Reds | Baker's job to include advising GMWed, 31 Oct 2007 23:17:36 -0700

John Fay, of The Cincinnati Enquirer, reports Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker will act as an adviser to general manager Wayne Krivsky on personnel matters prior to the 2008 season. "We've talked briefly - not in depth," Baker said. "We're going to talk more. We're going to talk about what we need, who's been healthy, who's been injured, try to find out why. Dissect the team as much as I can before the winter meetings. Most of that is Wayne's department. But I'm there as an adviser."

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 06:29 PM
Really? I haven't seen any of the young positional players take a stride forward under Dusty's tutelage. As for the predestined to fail roster, last time I checked, Petey Mac had these guys playing +2 over .500 ball for 80 games last year, with a perpetually injured Hamilton, and nothing akin to Volquez and Cueto filling out his staff behind the vets.
Dusty is a tactical and philosophical nightmare as a manager, but when his precious few areas of strength (player rapport, motivational leadership) begin to become weaknesses, he has less than nothing to offer.



Exactly, very true observation supported by the lack of improvement and the poor results that he has obtained in my opinion.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 06:35 PM
None of the above with the notable exeption of Hairston who keeps getting hurt.

Easy pickins isn't it. So easy a caveman could see it. :eek:

Want them on your favorite team next year ?

cincrazy
08-05-2008, 11:03 PM
Was he advising upon or managing any of those affairs or issues?



Just curious, can you think of better managers than Dusty?

Can you think of any that would not bat a Patterson and Janish one two in the batting order for prolonged periods of time as they complain about their team not scoring runs?


What particular team is good for a manager like Dusty?


What do you mean ? What changes in time would make a difference?

What kind of team would be good for Dusty? As if said "team" has never existed? The man has been in a World Series and has several postseason trips on his resume. He's not chopped liver. He's not going to come into a rebuilding situation and do a good job, which is what this is, and has been for years. But would I like him as a manager on a veteran team where everybody knows their roles? Yes I would

WVRedsFan
08-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Easy pickins isn't it. So easy a caveman could see it. :eek:

Want them on your favorite team next year ?

No. Of course it's obvious that what I want doesn't matter with the Reds. We're still in contention, you know...:sleep:

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 11:54 PM
No.

No ? gee that was quick :devil:


Of course it's obvious that what I want doesn't matter with the Reds.

Awe don't feel alone, they are giving me a first class rejection complex, me and a couple million other fans ;)


We're still in contention, you know...:sleep:

No I missed that, what year is it anyway? :lol:

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 12:06 AM
What kind of team would be good for Dusty? As if said "team" has never existed? The man has been in a World Series and has several postseason trips on his resume. He's not chopped liver. He's not going to come into a rebuilding situation and do a good job, which is what this is, and has been for years. But would I like him as a manager on a veteran team where everybody knows their roles? Yes I would

Stats guys tell me to use the three stats so that is what I am doing. Because
Random circumstances and situational occurrences may never come again in ones life, even if they were inherited.


Baker Three Stats
2005 Chicago Cubs 79 83 .488 21 games behind
2006 Chicago Cubs 66 96 .407 17.5 games behind
2008 Cincinnati 52 62 .456 16 games behind



chopped liver

South Vienna, OH
Now you're making think of Shoemakers ham salad (now that was a winner) in the good ole days. :)

cincrazy
08-06-2008, 12:23 AM
Stats guys tell me to use the three stats so that is what I am doing. Because
Random circumstances and situational occurrences may never come again in ones life, even if they were inherited.


Baker Three Stats
2005 Chicago Cubs 79 83 .488 21 games behind
2006 Chicago Cubs 66 96 .407 17.5 games behind
2008 Cincinnati 52 62 .456 16 games behind




South Vienna, OH
Now you're making think of Shoemakers ham salad (now that was a winner) in the good ole days. :)

I was actually just in Shoemakers a while ago picking up some milk and such. Sorry, didn't grab you any of the ham salad :)

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 12:26 AM
I was actually just in Shoemakers a while ago picking up some milk and such. Sorry, didn't grab you any of the ham salad :)

Me too
:lol:

Big Klu
08-06-2008, 11:40 PM
What was Patterson, Bako, Mercker and Hairston? Where did they come from? What's the chances of Krivsky himself and himself alone acquiring those ex-Cubs?

How did Kent Mercker become an ex-Cub in this argument (yes, I know he played for the Cubs at one time), when he is in his fourth stint with the Reds?