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View Full Version : 25 man roster concerns....



_Sir_Charles_
08-05-2008, 08:11 PM
Okay, I understood these changes when they happened. Adding Bako to the roster because of Ross' injury before the season began. I even understood it when we kept 3 catchers on for a while after we activated Ross. I also understood it when we brought Patterson back up from Louisville when Hairston/Cabrera both went down with injuries and it was obvious that Hopper wasn't going to be ready. I get it. We were short handed and they didn't want to rush any of the kids. But why...oh why...are they still up here?

Cabrera's back, Phillips is up, Hairston came back (temporarily apparently), Keppinger's back. Why are we still carrying 3 catchers and Corey Patterson? Patterson certainly didn't EARN his promotion from Louisville. As for the kids down at Louisville...at the beginning of the season we didn't have any viable options for CF or C. That's not true right now. Both Hannigan & Dickerson have CONSISTANTLY hit and played d all season long.

Are the Reds deluded enough to think that Patterson and all 3 catchers are part of our long term plans? Or even for our plans for next season? One, MAYBE 2, of the catchers I can see. But 3? That's retarded.

Even if they go with the argument that they're still trying to have a 'winning' season this year, how is Patterson and the 3 headed monster helping us get there? I don't know about players options and such, so I don't know if we can send 2 of the catchers and Patterson back to the minors or not. But if not...release them. Good god. Not only can Hannigan & Dickerson not do any worse than these guys, but at the bare minimum they have upside to them and they ARE in our future plans. I know that Jocketty was new to the franchise and all, but his learning period should be LONG over IMO. He should have seen enough to at least make these 2 simple changes. There is simply no excuse for it. None. Until they cut bait with these guys, I can't take this team seriously.


~I don't have the time to get into the pitching side of the 25-man roster. The hitting/defense side should be the top priority without a doubt.

redsmetz
08-05-2008, 09:03 PM
I doubt seriously that Corey Patterson is in this team's plans beyond the balance of this season. Likewise, I think it's highly likely that only one of the three catchers is still here next year. Despite what Dusty says, this club is merely playing out the string (and yes, even doing that, a team wants to finish as well as it can) and it makes no sense while there is no roster crunch to jettison any of these guys. When September comes, we can take a look at Dickerson and see where he fits in the scheme of things. But just to eat salary with two months left seems a needless waste at this point.

Spring~Fields
08-05-2008, 09:13 PM
I know that Jocketty was new to the franchise and all, but his learning period should be LONG over IMO. He should have seen enough to at least make these 2 simple changes. There is simply no excuse for it. None.

http://re3.yt-thm-a02.yimg.com/image/1/f12/501763010

IslandRed
08-05-2008, 10:26 PM
Not only can Hannigan & Dickerson not do any worse than these guys, but at the bare minimum they have upside to them and they ARE in our future plans.

Dickerson, maybe.

Hanigan's about to turn 28 years old, so I don't think "upside" really applies. Depending on his ability behind the plate, he *might* be a candidate for a backup job next year. But considering it was just this year that he became a decent hitter in Triple-A, I don't think you could put him behind the plate in Cincinnati and expect anything except replacement level, and maybe not even that. I don't think it would hurt anything to take a look but he's not someone to make plans around.

_Sir_Charles_
08-05-2008, 10:31 PM
Dickerson, maybe.

Hanigan's about to turn 28 years old, so I don't think "upside" really applies. Depending on his ability behind the plate, he *might* be a candidate for a backup job next year. But considering it was just this year that he became a decent hitter in Triple-A, I don't think you could put him behind the plate in Cincinnati and expect anything except replacement level, and maybe not even that. I don't think it would hurt anything to take a look but he's not someone to make plans around.

Agreed. I shouldn't have said "upside" for Hannigan. But the point remains. Our current 3 have NOT been cutting it. Defensively OR offensively. There isn't squat out there on the FA market for catchers and the Rangers are going to be asking for a kings ransom for one of their 3 available backstops. So get Hannigan up here NOW and give the FO a chance to see if he's a workable solution for next year...and 'possibly' beyond. Of course if Mesaraco picks it up....Hannigan would be a short-term solution.

HokieRed
08-05-2008, 10:33 PM
I doubt any of the three catchers will be back next year. But what's all the worry about Dickerson and/or Hanigan? Does anybody think they're really going to improve this team? We've got a lot bigger problems than that.

IslandRed
08-05-2008, 10:36 PM
I completely agree about the state of our current catching. But there's an impulse -- and we've said it many times over the years regarding many positions -- to look at the guys in the minors and say "well, they can't be any worse." Oh, yes they can.

schroomytunes
08-05-2008, 11:33 PM
Well I agree this team is dead...it seems as if they are ready to hang up the cleats and go home. We need to install the youth movement now to get a look at 2009. Moves that I make now:

1)Promote Dickerson...demote Patterson.
2)Promote Hanigan...release Bako.

Give these guys at least 2 months to see what they can do, dont wait till September they could be solid backups for 2009.

WebScorpion
08-06-2008, 10:00 AM
This is why rosters expand on September 1st...So you can get a look at guys like Dickerson and Hanigan. Just because the guys you have currently playing are not Major League caliber, is no reason to bring up more players who are not...and PAY them. ;)

Danny Serafini
08-06-2008, 11:40 AM
One thing to keep in mind, the Bats are looking real good for a playoff spot this year. It could be an extra two weeks before Louisville's season actually ends, and some guys come up.

HokieRed
08-06-2008, 11:53 AM
Much more important, IMO, than the Dickerson/Hanigan question is WJ's use of the remainder of the season--both here and in Louisville--to evaluate how to construct next year's bullpen. The priority now should be to build on what we have that is strong--the pitching staff--recognizing that apart from Bruce and Votto the position players are hardly worth getting attached to and can be replaced (roughly) without a lot of trouble. (This assumes Dunn's money puts him out of the question for a team needing that money to cover several eventualities.) As to the bullpen, clearly Cordero and Burton will be back, and Bray, though I think he's overrated, probably also. Weathers, Affeldt, Belisle, Coffey, Majewski will likely be gone. So we need to know: 1. What's Masset's role; 2. What can we count on--and when--from Roenicke? 3. Ditto for Pelland and Herrerra. 4. What can we count on--and when--from Watson, Fisher, Manuel, Ramirez? 5.Same for Viola, with question for him about role--reliever or starter?
The goal is the bullpen for 2010, which I hope will look like Cordero, Burton, Roenicke, Watson, Viola (if he stays in relief role), and maybe even Stewart--with one of the others or someone brought in. Another tough, experienced reliever--like Street or Sherrill--would make a lot of sense to help get us there and provide experience for this group.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2008, 11:56 AM
Even so, it's important not to get too worked up over Hairston—as his road hitting (.257/.304/.352), he's still Jerry Hairston Jr., just a version of himself that had the benefit of getting hot in the Gap in 99 PA (.448/.495/.644). That's not a reflection of a changed level of ability, it's a nice run at the office, and it goes away with exposure to more playing time. With Keppinger active, he'll actually end up getting most of his at-bats as an outfielder, because the Reds are back in the unhappy space where Corey Patterson's playing in a post-Griffey outfield, and the game's mechanics really strongly suggest that you employ three; it's been the fashion of the day for a bit, you might say.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7906

joshnky
08-06-2008, 11:57 AM
This is why rosters expand on September 1st...So you can get a look at guys like Dickerson and Hanigan. Just because the guys you have currently playing are not Major League caliber, is no reason to bring up more players who are not...and PAY them. ;)

Good point. Personally, I don't think Dickerson and Hanigan will be any better than Patterson or Bako but it might be nice to see what they can do against big league pitching. It seems to me that management has decided that these players will never be much more than AAA filler and they don't want to pay them extra to be AAA filler in the majors.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-06-2008, 12:01 PM
5 catchers on the 40-man. LOL.

It would be one thing if just one of them was decent, but 5 scrubby catchers taking up 5 spots? Wacky.

LincolnparkRed
08-06-2008, 12:10 PM
I dislike Dusty insistance on doing as well as possible in any given season. once you are out of it why do 70 wins matter versus 75, you still had a losing season. He places his personal record as a manager over the improvement of the orginization. He did it in Chicago in 2005 and he is doing it here. I think Walt has to mandate a change in philosiphy or we won't get to see who might play a role in 2009.

redsmetz
08-06-2008, 01:30 PM
I dislike Dusty insistance on doing as well as possible in any given season. once you are out of it why do 70 wins matter versus 75, you still had a losing season. He places his personal record as a manager over the improvement of the orginization. He did it in Chicago in 2005 and he is doing it here. I think Walt has to mandate a change in philosiphy or we won't get to see who might play a role in 2009.

I would disagree. I'm not interested in running a team out there and not expecting to win. We'll have time to look at players like Dickerson and Hanigan to see if they have value for 2009, but the club better be going out there to win as often as they can. While they may look like they're just playing out the string, I'd like to see the team's feet held to the fire to win, period.

REDREAD
08-06-2008, 01:37 PM
Why are we still carrying 3 catchers and Corey Patterson? Patterson certainly didn't EARN his promotion from Louisville. As for the kids down at Louisville...at the beginning of the season we didn't have any viable options for CF or C. That's not true right now. Both Hannigan & Dickerson have CONSISTANTLY hit and played d all season long.
.

I know you may disagree, but Walt probably doesn't think much of Hannigan and Dickerson.

Here is the problem. Let's say Dickerson is marginally better than Patterson. I do not agree, but let's assume that.

You release Patterson and bring up Dickerson. Then you get another OF injury. What do you do?

This team is paper thin. The young talent is very questionable at best. No point in giving playing time to another Anderson Machado type. (Or other very marginal prospects the Reds have wasted playing time on).
I don't know much about Hannigan, but Dickerson seems to be purely organizational fodder, to be called up in an emergency only.
Let's assume the Reds' scouts think Dickerson has no ML future. If we go under that assumption, we might as well just keep Patterson, since we are paying for him, and he is better than Dickerson.

In summary, Walt probably doesn't agree that Dickerson and Hannigan are ready. Or if they are ready, he doesn't think they are part of the future. Walt had no problem with bringing up other kids that he thought could help, so I doubt he's prejudiced against Dickerson.

REDREAD
08-06-2008, 01:47 PM
I dislike Dusty insistance on doing as well as possible in any given season. once you are out of it why do 70 wins matter versus 75, you still had a losing season. He places his personal record as a manager over the improvement of the orginization. He did it in Chicago in 2005 and he is doing it here. I think Walt has to mandate a change in philosiphy or we won't get to see who might play a role in 2009.

It's Dusty's job to try to win every day. The people that buy tickets expect the Reds to try to win.

Skilled baseball people don't need to give every AAA player a couple hundred at bats at the major league level to see if they can make it. This whole philosphy of just throwing junk against the wall over and over again and hope something works needs to change too.

Walt has given chances to the following relative youngsters: Bruce, Thompson, Homer, Bray, Coffey, Maj, and the pitcher we got for Jr.

If he thought Malony or Dickerson could help, he'd call them up in a heartbeat.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2008, 01:51 PM
I would be willing to bet money that Chris Dickerson could come up and hit better than Patterson is right now, and play just as good defensively.

nate
08-06-2008, 01:52 PM
I know you may disagree, but Walt probably doesn't think much of Hannigan and Dickerson.

Here is the problem. Let's say Dickerson is marginally better than Patterson. I do not agree, but let's assume that.

You release Patterson and bring up Dickerson. Then you get another OF injury. What do you do?

Waiver wire city, baby!


This team is paper thin. The young talent is very questionable at best. No point in giving playing time to another Anderson Machado type. (Or other very marginal prospects the Reds have wasted playing time on).

Why not?


I don't know much about Hannigan, but Dickerson seems to be purely organizational fodder, to be called up in an emergency only.
Let's assume the Reds' scouts think Dickerson has no ML future. If we go under that assumption, we might as well just keep Patterson, since we are paying for him, and he is better than Dickerson.

Let's not assume that. Let's find out if he's greater than or equal to Patterson.


In summary, Walt probably doesn't agree that Dickerson and Hannigan are ready. Or if they are ready, he doesn't think they are part of the future. Walt had no problem with bringing up other kids that he thought could help, so I doubt he's prejudiced against Dickerson.

I don't see how one could say that with any degree of certainty whatsoever.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2008, 02:34 PM
This is a stubborn organization when it comes to cutting loose bad players. Paul Bako, Corey Patterson, and Gray Majewski should have been gone a long time, especially with better options available and yet the Reds continue to run them out there nearly everyday. It's frustrating.

HokieRed
08-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Keep the faith, OBM, I'd be surprised if any of the 3 you mention is back in 2009.

IslandRed
08-06-2008, 04:20 PM
I would be willing to bet money that Chris Dickerson could come up and hit better than Patterson is right now, and play just as good defensively.

It is possible to be clearly better than Corey Patterson and still just be organizational filler.

Personally, I think Dickerson would probably be okay as a reserve in Cincinnati, but as a fifth-outfielder type. Like I said earlier about Hanigan, not someone to make plans around.


Let's not assume that. Let's find out if he's greater than or equal to Patterson. ... I don't see how one could say that with any degree of certainty whatsoever.

What REDREAD said:


Skilled baseball people don't need to give every AAA player a couple hundred at bats at the major league level to see if they can make it.

Sometimes, if you're running a ballclub and you're on the fence about a guy, you give him the trial run and see what happens. But if you've made up your mind, you either trust your judgment or you don't, and the latter doesn't tend to keep a job very long.

REDREAD
08-06-2008, 04:52 PM
This is a stubborn organization when it comes to cutting loose bad players. Paul Bako, Corey Patterson, and Gray Majewski should have been gone a long time, especially with better options available and yet the Reds continue to run them out there nearly everyday. It's frustrating.

That's the point though. Walt probably doesn't agree that they are better options. Based on the moves Walt has made, don't you believe he'd call them up if he thought they were better options?

Anderson Machado was hailed as having potential, based on his minor league numbers and defense too.

Some people want Maj cut and Harrera to replace him too. Herrara does not project well at all. The league will figure out his gimmick pitches when they see him more. As someone else said, younger isn't automatically better. It can get worse.

Chip R
08-06-2008, 05:03 PM
Some people want Maj cut and Harrera to replace him too. Herrara does not project well at all. The league will figure out his gimmick pitches when they see him more. As someone else said, younger isn't automatically better. It can get worse.


As Judge Smails said, "The world needs ditch diggers too." He could have said "middle relievers" and been just as accurate. Majewski, Santos, Whoever is in that spot is usually not someone who you have your future hopes pinned on. They are expendable. There are bigger fish to fry.