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08-05-2008, 10:53 PM
Can Arroyo play center field? ;)

His OPS is now at .630; he has now out OPS the following position player that have played for the Reds this year.

Bako
Patterson
Hatteberg
Hopper
Janish
A. Phillips
Castro

There has been a lot of really bad players come to the plate this year for the Reds. Those listed player have gotten a combined 700+ PA this year and most likely end up close to 1000 by years end. In seriousness I would consider PH him over A. Phillips; who I see has no reason for him to be on any MLB roster.

dougdirt
08-05-2008, 11:53 PM
thats downright scary

Will M
08-05-2008, 11:54 PM
Those listed player have gotten a combined 700+ PA this year

wow. there are a lot of reasons this team is so bad. the large numbers of guys who have zero business being in the bigs is one of them. we have seven guys who are the '25th man' at best.

Ltlabner
08-06-2008, 08:01 AM
There has been a lot of really bad players come to the plate this year for the Reds. Those listed player have gotten a combined 700+ PA this year and most likely end up close to 1000 by years end.

This is a song I have been singing for a while now. The staggering number of dreadfull (read: worse than scrub) plate apperances given away has simply enviscerated this team.

Mix in a little horrable lineup construction, "agressive" bat swinging and active run suppression and you got yourself some good ole fashion Dusty-Ball.

Cyclone792
08-06-2008, 08:07 AM
This is a song I have been singing for a while now. The staggering number of dreadfull (read: worse than scrub) plate apperances given away has simply enviscerated this team.

Mix in a little horrable lineup construction, "agressive" bat swinging and active run suppression and you got yourself some good ole fashion Dusty-Ball.

Yep, it's precisely reason #1 why the Reds offense blows. Far too many plate appearances have been handed over to awful players.

The Reds have handed over 1,100 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. Meanwhile, the Cubs have handed over only around 150 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. People need to stop and think about that, because that's just beyond staggering.

But don't tell the media or Joe Blow Reds fan this stuff. They think it's Adam Dunn's fault, or maybe it's the clubhouse couch's fault.

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 08:17 AM
Yep, it's precisely reason #1 why the Reds offense blows. Far too many plate appearances have been handed over to awful players.

The Reds have handed over 1,100 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. Meanwhile, the Cubs have handed over only around 150 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. People need to stop and think about that, because that's just beyond staggering.

But don't tell the media or Joe Blow Reds fan this stuff. They think it's Adam Dunn's fault, or maybe it's the clubhouse couch's fault.

And that the manager has nothing to do with it because he can't pitch, hit or catch for them, and lineups don't matter. I could just scream! The lost opportunity on those batters.

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 08:27 AM
This is a song I have been singing for a while now. The staggering number of dreadfull (read: worse than scrub) plate apperances given away has simply enviscerated this team.

Mix in a little horrable lineup construction, "agressive" bat swinging and active run suppression and you got yourself some good ole fashion Dusty-Ball.



has simply eviscerated this team.

Very applicable term, “eviscerated”


2. remove important part of something: to remove an essential part of something and so weaken it

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 09:00 AM
Can Arroyo play center field? ;)

His OPS is now at .630; he has now out OPS the following position player that have played for the Reds this year.

Bako
Patterson
Hatteberg
Hopper
Janish
A. Phillips
Castro

There has been a lot of really bad players come to the plate this year for the Reds. Those listed player have gotten a combined 700+ PA this year and most likely end up close to 1000 by years end. In seriousness I would consider PH him over A. Phillips; who I see has no reason for him to be on any MLB roster.



NAME GP AB BA OBP SLG OPS
Batting #1 114 486 .257 .309 .372 .682
Batting #2 114 479 .267 .318 .380 .698
Batting #8 114 387 .214 .309 .344 .653
Batting #3 114 434 .235 .334 .406 .740
Batting #4 114 447 .260 .322 .432 .754

Batting #5 114 395 .258 .387 .527 .913
Batting #6 114 420 .262 .334 .474 .808
Batting #7 114 413 .293 .359 .475 .833

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/splits?team=cin

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=atBats&season=2008&split=0&seasonType=2&type=reg

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=atBats&season=2008&split=0&seasonType=2&type=exp

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=atBats&season=2008&split=109&seasonType=2&type=reg

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=110&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=111&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=112&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=116&cat=atBats&order=true&type=reg

Pre-All Star OPS
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=181&cat=OPS&order=false&type=reg

Pre-All Star OBP
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=onBasePct&order=false&season=2008&split=181&seasonType=2&type=reg

April
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=40&cat=OPS&order=false&type=reg

May
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=41&cat=OPS&order=false&type=reg

June
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&season=2008&seasonType=2&split=42&cat=OPS&order=false&type=reg

July
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/batting?team=cin&cat=OPS&order=false&season=2008&split=43&seasonType=2&type=reg

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 09:21 AM
reason #1 why the Reds offense blows. Far too many plate appearances have been handed over to awful players.

The Reds have handed over 1,100 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. Meanwhile, the Cubs have handed over only around 150 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS.

People need to stop and think about that, because that's just beyond staggering.



How many one and two run games did they lose because of the above?

Cyclone792
08-06-2008, 09:34 AM
Speaking of bad offense, name this player:

He has accumulated 292 plate appearances from April 7, 2008 to August 5, 2008, and during that span he has posted a powerful batting line of .255/.308/.318/.626.

registerthis
08-06-2008, 09:44 AM
Speaking of bad offense, name this player:

That could be 50% of the Reds lineup on a nightly basis.

oneupper
08-06-2008, 10:35 AM
Speaking of bad offense, name this player:

He has accumulated 292 plate appearances from April 7, 2008 to August 5, 2008, and during that span he has posted a powerful batting line of .255/.308/.318/.626.

Keppinger?

Spring~Fields
08-06-2008, 10:39 AM
Losses by 2 runs or less - 16 Games
March
Mar. 31 vs. Arizona L 4-2
April
Apr. 11 at Pittsburgh L 1-0
Apr. 8 at Milwaukee L 3-2
Apr. 25 at San Francisco L 3-1
Apr. 12 at Pittsburgh L 4-3
Apr. 7 vs. Philadelphia L 5-3
Apr. 19 vs. Milwaukee L 5-3
Apr. 24 vs. Houston L 5-3
May
May 2 at Atlanta L 2-0
June
June 17 vs. LA Dodgers L 3-1
June 3 at Philadelphia L 3-2
June 2 at Philadelphia L 5-4
June 7 at Florida L 8-7
July
July 13 at Milwaukee L 3-2
July 28 at Houston L 5-4
August
Aug. 3 at Washington L 4-2
16

Scored 3 Runs or less - 49 Games of 114 games played 0.4298 percent
69 game projection over 162 games
March
Mar. 31 vs. Arizona L 4-2
1 Game
April
Apr. 11 at Pittsburgh L 1-0
Apr. 25 at San Francisco L 3-1
Apr. 13 at Pittsburgh L 9-1
Apr. 3 vs. Arizona W 3-2
Apr. 8 at Milwaukee L 3-2
Apr. 18 vs. Milwaukee L 5-2
Apr. 29 at St. Louis L 7-2
Apr. 30 at St. Louis L 5-2
Apr. 12 at Pittsburgh L 4-3
Apr. 19 vs. Milwaukee L 5-3
Apr. 24 vs. Houston L 5-3
Apr. 21 vs. LA Dodgers L 9-3
Apr. 23 vs. Houston L 9-3
Apr. 16 at Chi Cubs L 12-3
14 Games
May
May 2 at Atlanta L 2-0
May 6 vs. Chi Cubs L 3-0
May 20 at LA Dodgers L 4-1
May 3 at Atlanta L 9-1
May 23 at San Diego W 3-2
May 30 vs. Atlanta W 3-2
May 21 at LA Dodgers L 5-2
May 22 at San Diego L 8-2
May 29 vs. Pittsburgh L 7-2
May 11 at NY Mets L 8-3
10 Games
June
June 4 at Philadelphia W 2-0
June 5 at Philadelphia L 5-0
June 27 at Cleveland L 6-0
June 15 vs. Boston L 9-0
June 11 vs. St. Louis L 10-0
June 13 vs. Boston W 3-1
June 17 vs. LA Dodgers L 3-1
June 18 vs. LA Dodgers L 6-1
June 22 at NY Yankees L 4-1
June 24 at Toronto L 14-1
June 26 at Toronto L 7-1
June 3 at Philadelphia L 3-2
June 8 at Florida L 9-2
June 10 vs. St. Louis L 7-2
13 Games
July
July 27 vs. Colorado L 11-0
July 9 at Chi Cubs L 5-1
July 26 vs. Colorado L 5-1
July 5 vs. Washington W 3-2
July 13 at Milwaukee L 3-2
July 25 vs. Colorado L 7-2
July 29 at Houston L 6-2
July 8 at Chi Cubs L 7-3
8 Games
August
Aug. 5 vs. Milwaukee L 8-1
Aug. 1 at Washington L 5-2
Aug. 3 at Washington L 4-2
3 Games

http://www.scoreboard.msnbc.com/msnbc/main.asp?frames=0&sport=mlb&cat=TS&team=17

Cyclone792
08-06-2008, 10:57 AM
Keppinger?

That would be correct.

OnBaseMachine
08-06-2008, 11:18 AM
That would be correct.

Yet he continues to play SS (despite being awful there) and bat second everyday. I think I'd rather see Janish at this point, at least he's better defensively.

Ltlabner
08-07-2008, 11:26 AM
# YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
1. 2008 Adam Dunn 447 .314 .380 .543 28.2 41.1 22.2
2. 2008 E Encarnacion 413 .279 .332 .471 13.2 21.6 5.2
3. 2008 Ken Griffey Jr. 425 .277 .355 .432 9.1 20.7 2.4
4. 2008 B Phillips 481 .270 .320 .452 18.5 20.5 4.5
5. 2008 Joey Votto 416 .275 .344 .449 12.2 19.4 -1.7
6. 2008 Jerry Hairston 218 .310 .393 .484 23.5 19.3 13.0
7. 2008 Jay Bruce 264 .260 .326 .457 6.7 8.3 -2.4
8. 2008 David Ross 168 .271 .374 .359 3.4 6.7 3
9. 2008 Jeff Keppinger 318 .241 .321 .357 4.4 3.6 -3.2
10. 2008 Ryan Freel 143 .250 .340 .359 1.5 2.9 -2.8
12. 2008 Javier Valentin 97 .228 .289 .356 -1.3 -0.2 -4.5
13. 2008 Norris Hopper 58 .181 .286 .200 -4.0 -2.4 -5.2
14. 2008 Scott Hatteberg 61 .173 .262 .231 -5.4 -3 -6.5
15. 2008 Paul Bako 263 .218 .288 .339 -6.6 -3.1 -9
16. 2008 Andy Phillips 43 .129 .233 .205 -4.1 -3.2 -5.6
17. 2008 Paul Janish 72 .162 .278 .203 -4.1 -3.8 -5.2
19. 2008 C Patterson 238 .199 .221 .338 -12.5 -7.2 -17.2


Ok...before your eyes glaze over at the sight of all these numbers....stick with me.

This list is sorted by RAR. That is Runs Above Replacement. IOW, how many runs does the player score above and beyond that of a scrub (in the same number of outs) at that position. So Adam Dunn scores about 41 more runs over that of a scrub AAA type left fielder.

If you are not a fan of "stats" think of these numbers like this: You want the VORP, RAR, RAP to be as high as possible. Higher numbers mean more production. If you don't like those numbers, check out the traditional batting lines....they ain't pretty.

Of all 4,125 PA's on this list, 832 of them are by players who are below average and below scrub level. 501 of those belong to Bako and Patterson alone. And, as we all know, most of CPatts 238 PA's came at lead off back in April and May.

Also, you have 201 plate appearances by Freel and Hopper at leadoff. So that's another 200 lead off performances that were medicore at best.

Then you have another 893 PA's by guys who are just average players. Not bad, but not good. Problem is 318 of those come from Keppenger who has been completey exposed by playing every day and much of that blah performance is batting 2nd. So you get the triple wammy of blah performance at the plate (and getting worse), blah performance at the top of the order and really bad play at SS.

So for all you guys who get tired of hearing Dusty being bashed, think about this.

200+ lead off plate appearnaces by CPatt (way below average production)
200 lead off plate appearnaces by Freel & Hopper (barely average production)
318 PA's batting 2nd by Kepp (barely average production and getting worse)
263 PA's by Paul Bako 7th or 8th (way below average)

And none of that includes pitching or the drag of not moving BPhil in the order based on right/left hand pitchers or burying Dunn, Votto and EE at the middle/bottom of the line up. Nor does it include Jr batting third (and a horrific first few months of the season) or untold PA's by pitchers.

BRM
08-07-2008, 11:31 AM
Don't worry Ltlabner. Dusty can get good players to come to Cincinnati. It will get better soon.

Cyclone792
08-07-2008, 11:36 AM
# YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
1. 2008 Adam Dunn 447 .314 .380 .543 28.2 41.1 22.2
2. 2008 E Encarnacion 413 .279 .332 .471 13.2 21.6 5.2
3. 2008 Ken Griffey Jr. 425 .277 .355 .432 9.1 20.7 2.4
4. 2008 B Phillips 481 .270 .320 .452 18.5 20.5 4.5
5. 2008 Joey Votto 416 .275 .344 .449 12.2 19.4 -1.7
6. 2008 Jerry Hairston 218 .310 .393 .484 23.5 19.3 13.0
7. 2008 Jay Bruce 264 .260 .326 .457 6.7 8.3 -2.4
8. 2008 David Ross 168 .271 .374 .359 3.4 6.7 3
9. 2008 Jeff Keppinger 318 .241 .321 .357 4.4 3.6 -3.2
10. 2008 Ryan Freel 143 .250 .340 .359 1.5 2.9 -2.8
12. 2008 Javier Valentin 97 .228 .289 .356 -1.3 -0.2 -4.5
13. 2008 Norris Hopper 58 .181 .286 .200 -4.0 -2.4 -5.2
14. 2008 Scott Hatteberg 61 .173 .262 .231 -5.4 -3 -6.5
15. 2008 Paul Bako 263 .218 .288 .339 -6.6 -3.1 -9
16. 2008 Andy Phillips 43 .129 .233 .205 -4.1 -3.2 -5.6
17. 2008 Paul Janish 72 .162 .278 .203 -4.1 -3.8 -5.2
19. 2008 C Patterson 238 .199 .221 .338 -12.5 -7.2 -17.2


Ok...before your eyes glaze over at the sight of all these numbers....stick with me.

This list is sorted by RAR. That is Runs Above Replacement. IOW, how many runs does the player score above and beyond that of a scrub (in the same number of outs) at that position. So Adam Dunn scores about 41 more runs over that of a scrub AAA type left fielder.

If you are not a fan of "stats" think of these numbers like this: You want the VORP, RAR, RAP to be as high as possible. Higher numbers mean more production. If you don't like those numbers, check out the traditional batting lines....they ain't pretty.

Of all 4,125 PA's on this list, 832 of them are by players who are below average and below scrub level. 501 of those belong to Bako and Patterson alone. And, as we all know, most of CPatts 238 PA's came at lead off back in April and May.

Also, you have 201 plate appearances by Freel and Hopper at leadoff. So that's another 200 lead off performances that were medicore at best.

Then you have another 893 PA's by guys who are just average players. Not bad, but not good. Problem is 318 of those come from Keppenger who has been completey exposed by playing every day and much of that blah performance is batting 2nd. So you get the triple wammy of blah performance at the plate (and getting worse), blah performance at the top of the order and really bad play at SS.

So for all you guys who get tired of hearing Dusty being bashed, think about this.

200+ lead off plate appearnaces by CPatt (way below average production)
200 lead off plate appearnaces by Freel & Hopper (barely average production)
318 PA's batting 2nd by Kepp (barely average production and getting worse)
263 PA's by Paul Bako 7th or 8th (way below average)

And none of that includes pitching or the drag of not moving BPhil in the order based on right/left hand pitchers or burying Dunn, Votto and EE at the middle/bottom of the line up. Nor does it include Jr batting third (and a horrific first few months of the season) or untold PA's by pitchers.

Good stuff; here's my favorite group:

Keppinger
Freel
Valentin
Hopper
Hatteberg
Bako
A. Phillips
Janish
Patterson

Total = 1,293 plate appearances and a -32.1 VORP.

How do we like the Reds offense now?

VR
08-07-2008, 12:01 PM
Good stuff; here's my favorite group:

Keppinger
Freel
Valentin
Hopper
Hatteberg
Bako
A. Phillips
Janish
Patterson

Total = 1,293 plate appearances and a -32.1 VORP.

How do we like the Reds offense now?


Disturbing.....but the contention I have is with giving so many of these ab's being dolled out at the top of the lineup.

Highlifeman21
08-07-2008, 12:09 PM
Disturbing.....but the contention I have is with giving so many of these ab's being dolled out at the top of the lineup.

When your CF and SS bat 1 and 2 on most nights, you'll see a whole collection of suck from the Reds, given our options at both positions.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 01:31 PM
Good stuff; here's my favorite group:

Keppinger
Freel
Valentin
Hopper
Hatteberg
Bako
A. Phillips
Janish
Patterson

Total = 1,293 plate appearances and a -32.1 VORP.

How do we like the Reds offense now?


The Reds have handed over 1,100 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. Meanwhile, the Cubs have handed over only around 150 plate appearances to position players who have a sub .700 OPS. People need to stop and think about that, because that's just beyond staggering.


Originally Posted by Ltlabner
So for all you guys who get tired of hearing Dusty being bashed, think about this.

200+ lead off plate appearnaces by CPatt (way below average production)
200 lead off plate appearnaces by Freel & Hopper (barely average production)
318 PA's batting 2nd by Kepp (barely average production and getting worse)
263 PA's by Paul Bako 7th or 8th (way below average)

And none of that includes pitching or the drag of not moving BPhil in the order based on right/left hand pitchers or burying Dunn, Votto and EE at the middle/bottom of the line up. Nor does it include Jr batting third (and a horrific first few months of the season) or untold PA's by pitchers.


People need to stop and think about that, because that's just beyond staggering.

Question ?
If the players were to stay the same under Bakers hitting instructions and lineups, what do the Reds project next year as far as offense, RS RA and the other predicting stats ?

“People need to stop and think about that” seems very appropriate to me.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 03:52 PM
And Baker will do the same next year.




April - the following had these stats
Sorted BY BA
BA OBP SLG OPS
S. Hatteberg .167 .316 .233 .549
David Ross .200 .200 .300 .500
J. Valentin .208 .269 .250 .519
C. Patterson .225 .292 .488 .780
Adam Dunn .232 .396 .415 .811
Norris Hopper .240 .296 .240 .536
K. Griffey Jr. .255 .339 .429 .768
B. Phillips .283 .330 .500 .830
E. Encarnacion .293 .369 .576 .945
Joey Votto .308 .341 .538 .880
Paul Bako .310 .388 .507 .895
J. Keppinger .312 .361 .431 .793
Ryan Freel .321 .351 .377 .728
J. Hairston Jr. .348 .375 .435 .810
Totals .261 .331 .428 .760
Opponents .265 .330 .433 .763

April - the following had these stats
Sorted BY OBP
BA OBP SLG OPS
David Ross .200 .200 .300 .500
J. Valentin .208 .269 .250 .519
C. Patterson .225 .292 .488 .780
Norris Hopper .240 .296 .240 .536
S. Hatteberg .167 .316 .233 .549
B. Phillips .283 .330 .500 .830
K. Griffey Jr. .255 .339 .429 .768
Joey Votto .308 .341 .538 .880
Ryan Freel .321 .351 .377 .728
J. Keppinger .312 .361 .431 .793
E. Encarnacion .293 .369 .576 .945
J. Hairston Jr. .348 .375 .435 .810
Paul Bako .310 .388 .507 .895
Adam Dunn .232 .396 .415 .811
Totals .261 .331 .428 .760
Opponents .265 .330 .433 .763

April Standings Cincinnati 12 17 .414
Runs scored - 124
Division Rank - last

May - the following had these stats
Sorted BY BA
BA OBP SLG OPS
E. Encarnacion .172 .228 .247 .475
C. Patterson .180 .180 .197 .377
Paul Bako .186 .262 .305 .567
S. Hatteberg .222 .211 .278 .488
K. Griffey Jr. .250 .336 .360 .696
J. Valentin .267 .313 .400 .713
Paul Janish .280 .333 .280 .613
Joey Votto .281 .385 .528 .913
David Ross .282 .429 .385 .813
Adam Dunn .284 .429 .691 1.120
B. Phillips .292 .342 .557 .898
Ryan Freel .300 .355 .371 .727
J. Hairston Jr. .343 .397 .514 .912
J. Keppinger .400 .447 .543 .990
Jay Bruce .579 .680 .895 1.575
Totals .263 .339 .417 .755
Opponents .278 .347 .455 .802


May - the following had these stats
Sorted BY OBP
BA OBP SLG OPS
C. Patterson .180 .180 .197 .377
S. Hatteberg .222 .211 .278 .488
E. Encarnacion .172 .228 .247 .475
Paul Bako .186 .262 .305 .567
J. Valentin .267 .313 .400 .713
Paul Janish .280 .333 .280 .613
K. Griffey Jr. .250 .336 .360 .696
B. Phillips .292 .342 .557 .898
Ryan Freel .300 .355 .371 .727
Joey Votto .281 .385 .528 .913
J. Hairston Jr. .343 .397 .514 .912
Adam Dunn .284 .429 .691 1.120
David Ross .282 .429 .385 .813
J. Keppinger .400 .447 .543 .990
Jay Bruce .579 .680 .895 1.575
Totals .263 .339 .417 .755
Opponents .278 .347 .455 .802

May - Standings Cincinnati 27 29 .482

Runs scored - 256 Less April 124 = 132
Division Rank - Next to last

June - the following had these stats
Sorted BY BA
BA OBP SLG OPS
Ryan Freel .125 .125 .125 .250
Paul Janish .128 .244 .154 .398
Paul Bako .151 .224 .283 .507
C. Patterson .156 .156 .311 .467
Norris Hopper .160 .222 .160 .382
Adam Dunn .161 .342 .425 .768
Andy Phillips .167 .211 .222 .433
J. Valentin .182 .240 .227 .467
K. Griffey Jr. .205 .370 .425 .794
David Ross .216 .326 .297 .623
Jay Bruce .223 .274 .340 .614
Joey Votto .257 .315 .386 .701
B. Phillips .262 .304 .374 .678
E. Encarnacion .294 .422 .603 1.025
J. Keppinger .296 .406 .370 .777
J. Hairston Jr. .302 .339 .472 .811
J. Cabrera .389 .450 .444 .894
Totals .218 .304 .362 .665
Opponents .274 .344 .461 .805

June - the following had these stats
Sorted BY OBP
BA OBP SLG OPS
Ryan Freel .125 .125 .125 .250
C. Patterson .156 .156 .311 .467
Andy Phillips .167 .211 .222 .433
Norris Hopper .160 .222 .160 .382
Paul Bako .151 .224 .283 .507
J. Valentin .182 .240 .227 .467
Paul Janish .128 .244 .154 .398
Jay Bruce .223 .274 .340 .614
B. Phillips .262 .304 .374 .678
Joey Votto .257 .315 .386 .701
David Ross .216 .326 .297 .623
J. Hairston Jr. .302 .339 .472 .811
Adam Dunn .161 .342 .425 .768
K. Griffey Jr. .205 .370 .425 .794
J. Keppinger .296 .406 .370 .777
E. Encarnacion .294 .422 .603 1.025
J. Cabrera .389 .450 .444 .894
Totals .218 .304 .362 .665
Opponents .274 .344 .461 .805

June - Standings Cincinnati 39 45 .464 11.5 Games Behind
Runs scored - 357 Less April/May 256 = 100
Division Rank - Last in the division


In my opinion the season for the Reds was over on June 30
1.) That Dusty Baker single handedly neutered his own offense
1A.) That Dusty Baker substantially contributed to the Reds losing season and poor offensive showing.
A.) By selecting Patterson, Bako, over others in spring training
B.) By limiting scoring opportunities and lost opportunity
C.) By not recognizing on base percentages and their effects on scoring opportunities
D.) By batting a low on base percentage Patterson and others higher up in the batting order to receive the most PA/AB
E.) By giving batters with higher OBP and SLG less PA/AB
F.) By refusing to change and adapt after seeing that Patterson and certain other players were not producing in the numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 slots.
G.) Having Phillips batting cleanup despite of his poor showing against RH pitching
vs. Right .248 .293 .376 .669
H.) Having Patterson batting lead off despite his poor showing
Batting #1 .179 .218 .321 .539
I.) Having Griffey batting third against LH pitching
vs. Left .205 .310 .377 .687
J.) By Batting Dunn, Votto and down in the order so that their higher OBP and SLG could not be taken full advantage of
Dunn - Pre-All Star .380 .538 .918
Votto - April/May - April .341 .538 .879 May .385 .528 .913
Encarncion - Pre-All Star - .341 .481 .822
K.) By insisting on batting the CF and SS one two regardless of their current performance and production.
L.) By not making adjustments for the various player who do not hit either RH or LH pitching well in his lineups or for those that do.
M.) By batting a rookie at lead off after he said that he was not going to put pressure on that rookie, especially since that rookie had limited if any experience at batting lead off and had shown in spring training that his performance dipped.

* I included the BA for those that still prefer to see BA over OBP for their comfort.

Ltlabner
08-07-2008, 05:07 PM
In my opinion the season for the Reds was over on June 30

Well written post.

Sure, Kriv gets blame for poor roster construction.

But Dusty is responsible for all the things you posted. Maybe we'd still be in stinkville if CPatt batted 9th every game, and Bako was home mowing the yard but I'd be willing to wager we'd be in a better position to do something rather than just playing out the string for the rest of the season.

Boss-Hog
08-07-2008, 05:15 PM
If the excessive player and manager criticism must occur (and just a reminder that we do have a rule against it), could we please at least keep it relegated to the relevant threads so that those that wish to ignore it can do so? Thank you.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 05:31 PM
Can Arroyo play center field? ;)

His OPS is now at .630; he has now out OPS the following position player that have played for the Reds this year.

Bako
Patterson
Hatteberg
Hopper
Janish
A. Phillips
Castro

There has been a lot of really bad players come to the plate this year for the Reds. Those listed player have gotten a combined 700+ PA this year and most likely end up close to 1000 by years end.

I guess I have to agree.

Good observation and thread.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 05:33 PM
Sure, Kriv gets blame for poor roster construction.



That was subject to change after April. Then it became others responsibility.

mth123
08-07-2008, 08:32 PM
Good stuff; here's my favorite group:

Keppinger
Freel
Valentin
Hopper
Hatteberg
Bako
A. Phillips
Janish
Patterson

Total = 1,293 plate appearances and a -32.1 VORP.

How do we like the Reds offense now?

I actually think it bodes pretty well. None of these are key guys and most won't be back. It should be easy to upgrade those spots. If the core guys were the problem, this would be a much worse situation. Dreck be gone. We only need below average to improve a lot from here.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2008, 11:22 PM
I actually think it bodes pretty well. None of these are key guys and most won't be back. It should be easy to upgrade those spots. If the core guys were the problem, this would be a much worse situation. Dreck be gone. We only need below average to improve a lot from here.

Exactly.
Those gentlmen should be gone prior to next season, but I have $5 that says most will return. It's really sad.

WebScorpion
08-08-2008, 10:46 AM
# YEAR NAME PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
1. 2008 Adam Dunn 447 .314 .380 .543 28.2 41.1 22.2
2. 2008 E Encarnacion 413 .279 .332 .471 13.2 21.6 5.2
3. 2008 Ken Griffey Jr. 425 .277 .355 .432 9.1 20.7 2.4
4. 2008 B Phillips 481 .270 .320 .452 18.5 20.5 4.5
5. 2008 Joey Votto 416 .275 .344 .449 12.2 19.4 -1.7
6. 2008 Jerry Hairston 218 .310 .393 .484 23.5 19.3 13.0
7. 2008 Jay Bruce 264 .260 .326 .457 6.7 8.3 -2.4
8. 2008 David Ross 168 .271 .374 .359 3.4 6.7 3
9. 2008 Jeff Keppinger 318 .241 .321 .357 4.4 3.6 -3.2
10. 2008 Ryan Freel 143 .250 .340 .359 1.5 2.9 -2.8
12. 2008 Javier Valentin 97 .228 .289 .356 -1.3 -0.2 -4.5
13. 2008 Norris Hopper 58 .181 .286 .200 -4.0 -2.4 -5.2
14. 2008 Scott Hatteberg 61 .173 .262 .231 -5.4 -3 -6.5
15. 2008 Paul Bako 263 .218 .288 .339 -6.6 -3.1 -9
16. 2008 Andy Phillips 43 .129 .233 .205 -4.1 -3.2 -5.6
17. 2008 Paul Janish 72 .162 .278 .203 -4.1 -3.8 -5.2
19. 2008 C Patterson 238 .199 .221 .338 -12.5 -7.2 -17.2




Once you get past Jay Bruce on that list, you're looking at backups and utility players or defensive replacements. Now that Griffey is gone and counting Hairston as another utility guy who happens to be on his hot streak, (like Freel two years ago and Kepp last year,) that leaves us with 5 players who are legit Major League hitters. To save wear and tear on our young pitchers, I'd rather see Patterson in CF, Janish at SS, and whoever is the best defensive catcher behind the dish every night. IMO, at this point it's not about winning, it's about preserving what is good on this team and maybe trying out some untested talent.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 01:35 PM
Once you get past Jay Bruce on that list, you're looking at backups and utility players or defensive replacements.

Good point.

cincyinco
08-08-2008, 03:40 PM
Amazing how bad kepp has been. And there were so many clamouring that he was our everday solution. I'm not so sure. I guess ol' hondo knew was right. Sure he could have stated his case in a better fashion. But I certainly understood the message he was trying to get across.

Will M
08-08-2008, 03:53 PM
Once you get past Jay Bruce on that list, you're looking at backups and utility players or defensive replacements. Now that Griffey is gone and counting Hairston as another utility guy who happens to be on his hot streak, (like Freel two years ago and Kepp last year,) that leaves us with 5 players who are legit Major League hitters. To save wear and tear on our young pitchers, I'd rather see Patterson in CF, Janish at SS, and whoever is the best defensive catcher behind the dish every night. IMO, at this point it's not about winning, it's about preserving what is good on this team and maybe trying out some untested talent.

2008 is long long gone. Lets get Dickerson up here in CF. Give Janish some more ABs. Play Hanigan some at catcher. Why wait until september 1rst?
We have complete dead weight like CP and Javy. Just release them and call up a couple youngsters now. It would give me a reason to watch the Reds, something I have been doing a lot less of the last few weeks.

Strikes Out Looking
08-08-2008, 05:34 PM
I'd like to see Patterson in CF. . . at about 2 P.M. with a lawnmower.