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WVRedsFan
08-06-2008, 11:57 PM
Of the 6 teams in the NL Central, the starting lineups show that only one team, your Cincinnati Reds, has 5 players hitting below .250 in said lineup. How do the other teams in the division stack up?

Chicago 1
Milwaukee 4
St. Louis 0
Houston 1
Pittsburgh 4
Cincinnati 5

OBP aside, you can understand why we don't score many runs and are languishing in last place.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2008, 12:19 AM
A huge problem with the Reds offense has been the poor on base percentages from the 1-4 hitters. Check out the Reds team on base percentages by batting order:

#1: .309
#2: .318
#3: .334
#4: .322
#5: .387
#6: .334
#7: .359
#8: .309

Look at that. Our three highest OBP's are in the 5-7 slots where they are going to waste. Patterson-Keppinger-Griffey-Phillips batting 1-4 most of the year has really hurt. Obviously that isn't the only reason the offense has struggled this year but it's been a huge reason why. There's just no excuse for Dusty not utilizing his lineups better. The good news is Dusty has finally moved Votto up from the seventh spot to number two, which is where he has belonged since the first game. Now if he could just move Phillips out of the cleanup spot and move Dunn up we'd be getting somewhere. I wouldn't mind seeing Phillips hit cleanup. It's a very small sample size (40 atbats) but Phillips has a .362 OBP in the lead off spot since 2006.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2008, 12:24 AM
A huge problem with the Reds offense has been the poor on base percentages from the 1-4 hitters. Check out the Reds team on base percentages by batting order:

#1: .309
#2: .318
#3: .334
#4: .322
#5: .387
#6: .334
#7: .359
#8: .309

Look at that. Our three highest OBP's are in the 5-7 slots where they are going to waste. Patterson-Keppinger-Griffey-Phillips batting 1-4 most of the year has really hurt. Obviously that isn't the only reason the offense has struggled this year but it's been a huge reason why. There's just no excuse for Dusty not utilizing his lineups better. The good news is Dusty has finally moved Votto up from the seventh spot to number two, which is where he has belonged since the first game. Now if he could just move Phillips out of the cleanup spot and move Dunn up we'd be getting somewhere. I wouldn't mind seeing Phillips hit cleanup. It's a very small sample size (40 atbats) but Phillips has a .362 OBP in the lead off spot since 2006.

I'll commit blasphemy here by saying this, but here goes...

OBP is good and important, but you have to get hits. It's necessary. We're not getting hits and those 1-4 hitters are guilty. How many times have we seen the leadoff hitter make an out, the second hitter get a hit, and the third hitter walk only to have our cleanup hit into a DP or fly out ? We needed a hit somewhere and didn't get it. You absolutely have to get hits to drive in runs. The Reds are not doing that. OBP is wonderful, but it's no subsitute for getting timely hits. Low BA is conclusive evidence that the Reds cannot hit.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2008, 12:34 AM
Oh I agree that you need to get hits but getting on base is the key to scoring runs and when your top four hitters rarely reach base then you're going to have trouble scoring run, as the Reds are proving to us. I think having Votto/Bruce batting 2/3 is going to help but the Reds need to find a suitable lead off hitter. It would be terrific if Phillips could learn to take a few more pitches and up his OBP to around .345-.350 and then he could take over the lead off spot. I'd like to see Dusty move BP to lead off the rest of the season and see if BP can change his approach and take some more pitches.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2008, 12:40 AM
Oh I agree that you need to get hits but getting on base is the key to scoring runs and when your top four hitters rarely reach base then you're going to have trouble scoring run, as the Reds are proving to us. I think having Votto/Bruce batting 2/3 is going to help but the Reds need to find a suitable lead off hitter. It would be terrific if Phillips could learn to take a few more pitches and up his OBP to around .345-.350 and then he could take over the lead off spot. I'd like to see Dusty move BP to lead off the rest of the season and see if BP can change his approach and take some more pitches.

Oh, I agree. The problem is that Phillips seems to be resistant to change. He doesn't realize that hacking away and hitting .270 with OBP much lower than he needs does not do the club any good. He is a complete failure in the cleanup position, something the brain trust doesn't see. Batting him leadoff just might make him worse. Put him down in 6th or 7th position.

Finding a leadoff hitter will be one of Walt's challenges. And I pray every night it won't be someone we already have. It's been proven that no one has the qualifications for that.

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2008, 12:46 AM
That's why I'd like to see Walt callup Chris Dickerson and give him a chance in the lead off spot. He's got solid power and will take a walk. If he shows he can get on base at a .350 clip then you've got yourself a solid lead off hitter and a gold glove caliber center fielder. If he struggles with the bat then at least he's still a solid backup outfielder with the glove. If Walt decides to look outside the organization I'd like to see him contact Detroit about Curtis Granderson. He's probably not available but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

WVRedsFan
08-07-2008, 01:00 AM
That's why I'd like to see Walt callup Chris Dickerson and give him a chance in the lead off spot. He's got solid power and will take a walk. If he shows he can get on base at a .350 clip then you've got yourself a solid lead off hitter and a gold glove caliber center fielder. If he struggles with the bat then at least he's still a solid backup outfielder with the glove. If Walt decides to look outside the organization I'd like to see him contact Detroit about Curtis Granderson. He's probably not available but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Once again, i agree with Dickerson. I do not think he is the answer, but the objective of a leadoff hitter is to get on base and let the next three guys get him in--something the Reds are very poor at doing. At least, we'd see what he has.

As for Granderson, he's just about perfect. .301 average, .367 OBP, has pop (13 HR's), what's not to like. I imagine Detroit will hold on to him with a solid grip, but if you could swing Ecarnacion and Homer for him, that would be good. You'd have to find a third baseman, but as time goes on, I'm convinced Edwin is not the answer in the long term plans of the Reds.

Ron Madden
08-07-2008, 02:49 AM
I'll commit blasphemy here by saying this, but here goes...

OBP is good and important, but you have to get hits. It's necessary. We're not getting hits and those 1-4 hitters are guilty. How many times have we seen the leadoff hitter make an out, the second hitter get a hit, and the third hitter walk only to have our cleanup hit into a DP or fly out ? We needed a hit somewhere and didn't get it. You absolutely have to get hits to drive in runs. The Reds are not doing that. OBP is wonderful, but it's no subsitute for getting timely hits. Low BA is conclusive evidence that the Reds cannot hit.

You're right hits are important, hits avoid outs and add to ones OBP.

Good OBP is good and important to avoiding outs.

The best way to score runs is to have a high OBP and OPS.

Avoiding making outs is key to run production.

Sea Ray
08-07-2008, 09:35 AM
The thing with the walks vs hits argument is from a hitter's standpoint walks are out of his control. He only walks if the pitcher throws a pitch out of the strike zone, he doesn't swing and the ump calls it a ball. That's two out of three things out of his control. This has to happen 4 times in order to get on base. If you're hitting under .250 it's less likely the pitcher's going to throw you 4 pitches out of the strike zone. So the hitter needs to work on getting more hits first, then he can worry about taking a few walks. Take David Ross for example. He can be as patient as you want but that patience will not result in a lot of walks because he's not a feared hitter. They're going to make him put the ball in play. He needs to work on getting more hits.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 05:43 PM
Oh, I agree. The problem is that Phillips seems to be resistant to change. He doesn't realize that hacking away and hitting .270 with OBP much lower than he needs does not do the club any good. He is a complete failure in the cleanup position, something the brain trust doesn't see. Batting him leadoff just might make him worse. Put him down in 6th or 7th position.

Finding a leadoff hitter will be one of Walt's challenges. And I pray every night it won't be someone we already have. It's been proven that no one has the qualifications for that.

I wonder why they don't use the remaining part of the season to try out some new approaches?

Kc61
08-07-2008, 05:48 PM
I'll commit blasphemy here by saying this, but here goes...

OBP is good and important, but you have to get hits. It's necessary. We're not getting hits and those 1-4 hitters are guilty. How many times have we seen the leadoff hitter make an out, the second hitter get a hit, and the third hitter walk only to have our cleanup hit into a DP or fly out ? We needed a hit somewhere and didn't get it. You absolutely have to get hits to drive in runs. The Reds are not doing that. OBP is wonderful, but it's no subsitute for getting timely hits. Low BA is conclusive evidence that the Reds cannot hit.


Remember my thread "The Reds Need More Hits?" Pretty much right on point here. It's more than the 1-4 hitters. The Reds are basically a BB/HR offense. They are next to last in the NL in the hit department.

This is why I'm excited about the two new guys, Votto and Bruce, each of whom appears to be a balanced hitter. Votto more of a singles/doubles type, Bruce a little more HR oriented. The Reds need more of this type of hitter and they have very few.

gonelong
08-07-2008, 06:06 PM
The thing with the walks vs hits argument is from a hitter's standpoint walks are out of his control. He only walks if the pitcher throws a pitch out of the strike zone, he doesn't swing and the ump calls it a ball.

I'd take that action. You stand on the mound, and I'll give you a $1000 if you can walk me by MLB rules. I'll only take $100 if I can avoid the walk.

GL