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View Full Version : Has Dusty Lost Em



MartyFan
08-07-2008, 09:48 PM
Less than a year into the Dusty Era of Baseball with the Reds, this team doesn't seem to have any bounce back in it at all. They are FLAT, zero confidence and seemingly playing to end the season.

Has Dusty lost the team?
Can he get it back next year or should he be gone?

Wondering what your thoughts are.

oneupper
08-07-2008, 09:53 PM
Never had 'em

OnBaseMachine
08-07-2008, 09:54 PM
This is a young team, they should have kept Pete Machanin. These guys played great baseball under Pete.

GAC
08-07-2008, 10:19 PM
Dusty has yet to put his "fingerprint" on this team IMO.

And that should scare the crap out of most of us. ;)

KronoRed
08-07-2008, 10:40 PM
He threw them under the bus the other day. It's all Wayne's fault :D

guttle11
08-07-2008, 11:02 PM
Nah. I firmly believe that a manager like Dusty (player's manager to a fault at times) will never "lose" the team. It's just not a good team. The better the overall talent, the more in tune with the manager they will seem.

With the youngins especially, I see a lot of overthinking out there. If you're watching in HD, you can actually see the wheels turning. It'll be a year or two before they start to get a good instinctual feel for the big league game on a daily basis. Homer and Edwin are the biggest overthinkers. Homer needs to be put on the Cueto method of throwing what the catcher puts down regardless. Edwin needs to just see ball, hit ball. He's been doing that the last month or so, and has been quite good. When he starts thinking, he gets pop upitis.

LoganBuck
08-07-2008, 11:24 PM
Live together, Die alone.

Spring~Fields
08-07-2008, 11:36 PM
They are FLAT, zero confidence and seemingly playing to end the season.

Wondering what your thoughts are.

Won 2 of their last 13 .154 pct

Won 6 of their last 21 .286 pct

Won 9 of their last 26 .346 pct

The results speak for themselves.

Highlifeman21
08-07-2008, 11:55 PM
This poll needed the option "Lost 'em? He never had 'em"

WVRedsFan
08-08-2008, 12:20 AM
This is a young team, they should have kept Pete Machanin. These guys played great baseball under Pete.To be fair, this is not the same team that Mackanin had last year. Look who's gone and who replaced them. Hamilton and Griffey are gone. Hatteberg, Cantu, Gonzalez, Freel, Hopper--all gone. The pitching looks similar, but he did have a healthy Aaron Harang last year. Replacing those guys are rookie Jay Bruce and Corey F. Patterson (as well as the occasional appearance by Jerry Hairston), Votto replaces Hatteberg, Keppinger (who continues to show he is not a starter) replaces Gonzalez. While Freel and Hopper could spell some outfielder in spots, we now have no one. The torrid start by Volquez is not a replacement for a healthy Harang. Arroyo, Johnny Cueto, Josh Fogg, and Homer Bailey are not all that.

Apples to oranges. Pete would be losing with this bunch too. Not enough talent on the offensive or defensive sides to win ball games.

Kc61
08-08-2008, 12:48 AM
To be fair, this is not the same team that Mackanin had last year. Look who's gone and who replaced them. Hamilton and Griffey are gone. Hatteberg, Cantu, Gonzalez, Freel, Hopper--all gone. The pitching looks similar, but he did have a healthy Aaron Harang last year. Replacing those guys are rookie Jay Bruce and Corey F. Patterson (as well as the occasional appearance by Jerry Hairston), Votto replaces Hatteberg, Keppinger (who continues to show he is not a starter) replaces Gonzalez. While Freel and Hopper could spell some outfielder in spots, we now have no one. The torrid start by Volquez is not a replacement for a healthy Harang. Arroyo, Johnny Cueto, Josh Fogg, and Homer Bailey are not all that.

Apples to oranges. Pete would be losing with this bunch too. Not enough talent on the offensive or defensive sides to win ball games.


It's mind boggling, really. A big ownership change, GM replacements, managerial changes, some big signings, promotion of young talent, look at the result on the field. Right now, is any team playing worse?

Jocketty gets some time to make some changes but it's pretty unbelievable.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2008, 01:24 AM
To be fair, this is not the same team that Mackanin had last year. Look who's gone and who replaced them. Hamilton and Griffey are gone. Hatteberg, Cantu, Gonzalez, Freel, Hopper--all gone. The pitching looks similar, but he did have a healthy Aaron Harang last year. Replacing those guys are rookie Jay Bruce and Corey F. Patterson (as well as the occasional appearance by Jerry Hairston), Votto replaces Hatteberg, Keppinger (who continues to show he is not a starter) replaces Gonzalez. While Freel and Hopper could spell some outfielder in spots, we now have no one. The torrid start by Volquez is not a replacement for a healthy Harang. Arroyo, Johnny Cueto, Josh Fogg, and Homer Bailey are not all that.

Apples to oranges. Pete would be losing with this bunch too. Not enough talent on the offensive or defensive sides to win ball games.

This team is more talented that the one Pete had to work with. Pete had a healthy Harang but he didn't have Volquez or Cueto like Dusty has. Nor did Pete have Cordero. Dusty isn't the only problem right now but I do believe Pete Machanin was a much better choice for manager than Dusty Baker.

penantboundreds
08-08-2008, 01:38 AM
Hey just checking, Scott Hatteberg still doesn't have a job, does he?

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2008, 01:39 AM
Hey just checking, Scott Hatteberg still doesn't have a job, does he?

Nope. Nobody has picked him up.

penantboundreds
08-08-2008, 01:42 AM
Wow, really surprising no one has picked him up

WVRedsFan
08-08-2008, 01:44 AM
This team is more talented that the one Pete had to work with. Pete had a healthy Harang but he didn't have Volquez or Cueto like Dusty has. Nor did Pete have Cordero. Dusty isn't the only problem right now but I do believe Pete Machanin was a much better choice for manager than Dusty Baker.

I'm certainly not going to defend Dusty Baker, but I beg to differ. Volquez, over this losing streak has been horrible like the rest of the pitching staff. Johnny Cueto has been somewhat better, but neither has done well:


Pitcher ip h er bb so era
Cueto 60 60 34 25 25 5.10
Volquez 50 61 29 19 36 5.22

Similar to what Pete had. Yes. Maybe worse because there is no Harang in the mix.

Codero is a non-factor because we are out of so many games by the ninth inning. When was the last time he pitched? I rest my case.

Is this team more talented that last year's late season team. Hardly. Rookies at first and right field. A utility man at short. No one in center who can hit. A good bullpen, but starters who can't get out of the fifth inning in many cases (count them--I challenge you). No contest. Even the golden boys--Cueto and Volquez have been bombed early and often and averaged 6 and 5 innings each. Reality sits in. And we won't mention Homer and Fogg.

This team is horrible and no one, including Pete Macklanin or even Sparky Anderson could win with this team.

RedsManRick
08-08-2008, 01:50 AM
Never had 'em

This. I actually voted no. This just isn't a great team and Dusty has no clue what to do with it. You can't pat a .700 OPS on the back and make him OPS .850.

OnBaseMachine
08-08-2008, 01:52 AM
BTW Pete Mackanin only had Josh Hamilton for 104 atbats last season as Hamilton was on the DL most of time under Pete. He managed to go 41-39 in 80 games despite having injuries to Josh Hamilton and then Dunn and Griffey late in the season. I'm not saying Dusty is the sole reason the Reds are struggling but I do think Pete would have been the better choice for a rebuilding team like the Reds.

WVRedsFan
08-08-2008, 02:15 AM
BTW Pete Mackanin only had Josh Hamilton for 104 atbats last season as Hamilton was on the DL most of time under Pete. He managed to go 41-39 in 80 games despite having injuries to Josh Hamilton and then Dunn and Griffey late in the season. I'm not saying Dusty is the sole reason the Reds are struggling but I do think Pete would have been the better choice for a rebuilding team like the Reds.

I won't dispute who would have been the better manager, because I don't know. I only know this: no one could win with this horrible roster of misfits. That does not include Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips (though I go back for forth with him. His attitude and hitting style puts me on edge), Jay Bruce, and Adam Dunn in the lineup. I have real questions on why anyone thought Josh Fogg was a good fit with this team and how they couldn't have known that Freel and Hairston, with their history of season-ending injuries could be counted on for a whole season (and count on them to do anything). I also have questions why the team thought that Corey Patterson was anything but a defensive replacement that you sign to a $3 million contract.

Now we sit with a bench consisting of Hairston or Patterson (one will start and the other sit if one of them is healthy), Andy Phillips, who was let go by us and NY in one season, Javier Valentin, either Ross or Bako, Cabera, and you just have to wonder what the brain trust was thinking. Maybe the early brilliance of Volquez, Cueto, and Bruce made them blind to the real problems here. Or maybe they were just dumb, I don't know.

I do know it's going to take major surgery to have any hope over the next five years. Many are already admitting that the minors are bare with Bruce and Votto up here and the counted-on pitching of Maloney and Thompson inured with mysterious maladies making things more difficult.

NO one could win with this team and so it goes. The future depends on what WJ does in the off season. I hope he has a plan because it might take the Almighty to clear up this mess. And Dusty Baker, Sparky Anderson, Lou P., Joe Torre or anyone could win with this mess.

SteelSD
08-08-2008, 02:28 AM
Never had 'em

Yup. It's pretty hard to lose control of something you never had control of. MLB baseball players, while not the Mensa elite, can pretty much figure out when a Manager is doing more dumb things than smart.

MrCinatit
08-08-2008, 03:08 AM
I know a lot of the faces have changed, but the team lacked spirit last years as well - and the year before.

Ron Madden
08-08-2008, 03:40 AM
I do believe Pete Machanin was a much better choice for manager than Dusty Baker.

Agreed.

If we as fans can see that you know the players see it too.

Strikes Out Looking
08-08-2008, 08:52 AM
Dusty and kids is a bad result at this point in his career. I think he is sitting back and waiting for the "vets" to do what he needs to be doing. And the "vets" are Dunn and Phillips--two players who have talent, but don't really seem to know the first thing about leadership.

But I don't just blame Dusty. BobCast hired him and then hired Walt "to win now." In a bizzaro world he might be succeeding, but in the real world, I don't think so.

The most depressing thing about this is that this team has players with more raw talent than any of the last few years, unfortunately management doesn't know how to put anything together. For the last week they've been playing with 3 subpar catchers and only one backup of (Cabrerra).

When Narron was manager, I said a monkey could do his job better. I know say a monkey could manage the roster better (a chimp would have dl'd Hairston right away and ditched Javy at the deadline).

Falls City Beer
08-08-2008, 09:47 AM
I'd love to see what Pete McKanin could do without Harang, with Fogg and Bailey taking up a bunch of starts.

I have no doubt that Dusty will get fired sometime early next season, yet another meaningless jettison along the road of a losing 2009.

oneupper
08-08-2008, 09:48 AM
Dusty seems to be like a Mafia Boss (or a third world dictator), in the sense that loyalty and respect trump actual performance.

Dusty expected to "earn" that loyalty, by doing what he does: Sticking up for his players v the press/fans, sticking with them through slumps, showing encouragement/faith, helping them with personal issues and whatnot.

In SF he could be BBonds' lightning rod. Ditto with Sosa and others in Chicago. But here was hardly to be heard in the Griffey controversy or when Dunn was critized.

Sot it hasn't worked nor has Dusty had that many opportunities to make it work. And where it has kinda worked (Patterson must love him), it doesn't really help him with the team overall.

So nobody on the team really owes him much loyalty or respect and it's probably mutual. He's right in the sense that it's not HIS team. Baker is not THEIR manager either.

OldXOhio
08-08-2008, 09:58 AM
I'd love to see what Pete McKanin could do without Harang, with Fogg and Bailey taking up a bunch of starts.



As opposed to having Belisle and Dumatrait with no Volquez?

Falls City Beer
08-08-2008, 10:19 AM
As opposed to having Belisle and Dumatrait with no Volquez?

yeah, Volquez has been a real rock of late.

With three rookies, all of whom have been either rocky at some points to downright awful, Harang on the shelf, Bronson just now not sucking, a closer allergic to the save stat, I'd say Dusty's done a pretty good job.

REDREAD
08-08-2008, 10:55 AM
This team is more talented that the one Pete had to work with. Pete had a healthy Harang but he didn't have Volquez or Cueto like Dusty has. Nor did Pete have Cordero. Dusty isn't the only problem right now but I do believe Pete Machanin was a much better choice for manager than Dusty Baker.

Ceuto has a 5.00 ERA. Sure, he is promising, but he has not pitched well this year.

Pete had an effective Arroyo and Harang. Dusty hasn't. A hot half season by Volquez does not make up for that.

As someone else said, Dusty has lost a lot of depth and talent in the starting eight as well. Jr and Hamilton is a lot of hitting to lose on a team that does not hit well. Keppinger has fallen off a cliff.

McKannen also got a nice hot streak from Valentine.

Dusty's team has also had a LOT more injuries than McKannen's team did.
IIRC, Jr had some kind of abdominal problem at the end, but that was the only real injury he had to deal with.

flyer85
08-08-2008, 10:57 AM
Dusty is not the reason they Reds are losing this year, however, it was a waste of money to have him manage this team.

Az Red
08-08-2008, 11:09 AM
If nothing else, WJ should have a real god idea how many changes are required this offseason. The problem is the number of years it will take the next team to jell. The quickest infusion of talent would have been trading. Maybe that will still happen.

nate
08-08-2008, 11:43 AM
Ceuto has a 5.00 ERA. Sure, he is promising, but he has not pitched well this year.

Cueto is all of 22 and getting OJT in his rookie year; he's doing fine.


Pete had an effective Arroyo and Harang. Dusty hasn't. A hot half season by Volquez does not make up for that.

Dusty's had a better overall pitching staff. Team ERA 4.58 versus 2007 Team ERA 4.94.


As someone else said, Dusty has lost a lot of depth and talent in the starting eight as well. Jr and Hamilton is a lot of hitting to lose on a team that does not hit well. Keppinger has fallen off a cliff.

Hamilton got into all of 26 games in the second half last year.


Dusty's team has also had a LOT more injuries than McKannen's team did.
IIRC, Jr had some kind of abdominal problem at the end, but that was the only real injury he had to deal with.

Griffey had a problem (http://www.sportsline.com/mlb/story/10145528) with diverticulitis in April, much before Pete took over.

Other than that, Dusty's done, to me, an average job.

RFS62
08-08-2008, 11:50 AM
Dusty is not the reason they Reds are losing this year, however, it was a waste of money to have him manage this team.



Exactly right.

WVRedsFan
08-08-2008, 12:04 PM
True that.

What a mess.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 12:29 PM
Codero is a non-factor because we are out of so many games by the ninth inning. When was the last time he pitched? I rest my case.

Is this team more talented that last year's late season team. Hardly. Rookies at first and right field. A utility man at short. No one in center who can hit. A good bullpen, but starters who can't get out of the fifth inning in many cases (count them--I challenge you). No contest. Even the golden boys--Cueto and Volquez have been bombed early and often and averaged 6 and 5 innings each. Reality sits in. And we won't mention Homer and Fogg.

This team is horrible and no one, including Pete Macklanin or even Sparky Anderson could win with this team.

I think that I agree with you WV,

I think that the masses would have to admit that after the April splash and speech had come and gone Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty did nothing to improve the team to help Dusty win.

While a team made up of players with the career numbers of Ken Griffey Jr. .373 .548 .921, Adam Dunn .381 .521 .902, Joey Votto .349 .469 .818, Edwin Encarnacion .345 .458 .803, Jay Bruce .323 .453 .776, Scott Hatteberg.361 .410 .771, Jeff Keppinger .347 .404 .751, David Ross .310 .437 .747, Brandon Phillips .310 .427 .737, Ryan Freel .357 .376 .733, Javier Valentin .308 .399 .707 and the cast of filler, most of whom no other team apparently wanted at the trading deadline, were clearly not good enough to win 81 games for Dusty Baker, a manager with a history of winning prior to 2005 with larger market teams in Chicago and San Francisco.

How hard could it have been for Castellini a baseball fan who hates to lose to tell Jocketty to find some warm bodies to have replaced C. Patterson, Norris Hopper, Paul Bako, considering that a simple release of them might have been an upgrade?

Can 2009 be very encouraging to the fans with an offense filled with the players of the ilk above, Dunn, Phillips, Encarncion, Votto, Keppinger, Hairston and Bruce and worse ?

Then there was the pitching staff of Jared Burton 2.23, Bill Bray 2.92, E. Volquez 2.93, F. Cordero 3.28,
Kent Mercker 3.29, Gary Majewski 3.45, D. Weathers 3.49, J. Affeldt 3.64, Mike Lincoln 3.64, Aaron Harang 4.76, Johnny Cueto 5.00, B. Arroyo 5.55, that begs to question, who could possibly win 81 games or more with what must be one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball ?

Can 2009 being very encouraging to the fans with a pitching staff of that ilk?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/pitching?team=cin

One could have at least expected Castellini and Jocketty to have found some warm bodies to replace the likes of these - Josh Fogg 7.98, Homer Bailey 7.93, Matt Belisle 7.28, Todd Coffey 6.05. Not one reliever was offered on the open market, not one reliever in the minors for the Reds is better than any of those, amazing.

Then again maybe none of the above had anything to do with it, maybe it all boils down to money!!

OldXOhio
08-08-2008, 12:51 PM
yeah, Volquez has been a real rock of late.



Yeah, truly awful stuff: 3-1, 4.54 in July. And yet he's still 13-5, 2.93 overall. Where would Dusty's team be without that?

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 12:53 PM
I won't dispute who would have been the better manager, because I don't know. I only know this: no one could win with this horrible roster of misfits. That does not include Joey Votto, Brandon Phillips (though I go back for forth with him. His attitude and hitting style puts me on edge), Jay Bruce, and Adam Dunn in the lineup.
:clap:


I have real questions on why anyone thought Josh Fogg was a good fit with this team
Veteran fifth starter, in their minds when spring training broke.


and how they couldn't have known that Freel and Hairston, with their history of season-ending injuries could be counted on for a whole season (and count on them to do anything). I also have questions why the team thought that Corey Patterson was anything but a defensive replacement that you sign to a $3 million contract.

:clap: and there is little reason to believe that they could not have corrected these errors in the past 90 days, how can we trust that they will be able to correct them in the 90 days following the end of October? Nov, Dec, Jan. ?


Now we sit with a bench consisting of Hairston or Patterson (one will start and the other sit if one of them is healthy), Andy Phillips, who was let go by us and NY in one season, Javier Valentin, either Ross or Bako, Cabera, and you just have to wonder what the brain trust was thinking.
I do know it's going to take major surgery to have any hope over the next five years.
:clap::clap::clap:

Especially with Chicago, Houston, Milwuakee and St. Louis in the division taking care of business, the business of winning baseball games.



Many are already admitting that the minors are bare with Bruce and Votto up here and the counted-on pitching of Maloney and Thompson inured with mysterious maladies making things more difficult.

Hope springs eternal, but a bird in the hand !!


NO one could win with this team and so it goes. The future depends on what WJ does in the off season. I hope he has a plan because it might take the Almighty to clear up this mess. And Dusty Baker, Sparky Anderson, Lou P., Joe Torre or anyone could win with this mess.
:pray::pray::pray:

He said, no thanks, he thought that he liked his chances better with Chicago, Milwuakee, Houston and St. Louis. :thumbup:

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Dusty has yet to put his "fingerprint" on this team IMO.

And that should scare the crap out of most of us. ;)

Not me.

This year is a wash, he can get em back next year. :)

:beerme:

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 01:06 PM
But I don't just blame Dusty. BobCast hired him and then hired Walt "to win now." In a bizzaro world he might be succeeding, but in the real world, I don't think so.



Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty could not have been more disappointing for me to date with their words and little substance.

Big Klu
08-08-2008, 01:49 PM
I liked Pete Mackanin last year, and I would have been OK with him as manager. But I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Dusty Baker is not the problem with this team.

I also know that if the Reds had hired Mackanin, there would have been a lot of people on RedsZone complaining that the Reds were doing the same old thing, promoting the interim manager just like they did with Dave Miley and Jerry Narron.

Chip R
08-08-2008, 01:59 PM
I liked Pete Mackanin last year, and I would have been OK with him as manager. But I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Dusty Baker is not the problem with this team.

I also know that if the Reds had hired Mackanin, there would have been a lot of people on RedsZone complaining that the Reds were doing the same old thing, promoting the interim manager just like they did with Dave Miley and Jerry Narron.


You're right. There would have been. However, they have played well for the interim managers be it Miley, Mackanin or Narron. Then when the interim manager became permanant, they played like they did for the previous manager. You can't blame them for not re-hiring Mackanin.

For better or for worse, what they need to do is get players in here that Dusty wants. If he wants a speedy CF to bat leadoff, get him one. If he thinks Dunn and/or EE are too much of a defensive liability(ies) to play on his team, let them go and get someone else. Then he'll have his team and won't have any excuses. If they win, he gets the glory and if they don't win, he gets the boot.

Spring~Fields
08-08-2008, 02:09 PM
For better or for worse, what they need to do is get players in here that Dusty wants. If he wants a speedy CF to bat leadoff, get him one. If he thinks Dunn and/or EE are too much of a defensive liability(ies) to play on his team, let them go and get someone else. Then he'll have his team and won't have any excuses. If they win, he gets the glory and if they don't win, he gets the boot.

Pretty much cut and dry. Castellini and his fellow investors have to enable, empower and to allow Jocketty the tools and time while fully funding him to obtain the players that Dusty Baker needs to win 1-8, the bench and in the pitching staff. In a manner that is competitive with Chicago, St. Louis, Houston and Milwaukee.

Question ?
Will they be going with a plan similar to an Oakland, Minnesota, Florida, Tampa, or Arizona where young players are often the core of the team or that of the larger market teams, Boston, Chicago, LA, Houston, New York etc ? Only one type of plan seems to be a good fit for their current manager.

HokieRed
08-08-2008, 10:46 PM
What record would absolutely spell firing for Dusty? Is there some number of losses that would just make it impossible for him to be back? 95? 100? Could this team go 62-100? It seems a certainty at this point that they'll lose 90, is 100 a real possibility? Would that mean Dusty's gone?

Falls City Beer
08-08-2008, 11:23 PM
What record would absolutely spell firing for Dusty? Is there some number of losses that would just make it impossible for him to be back? 95? 100? Could this team go 62-100? It seems a certainty at this point that they'll lose 90, is 100 a real possibility? Would that mean Dusty's gone?

I think the die is cast. Dusty's a goner. I'm guessing it's why the team's just rolled over and died.

Reds4Life
08-09-2008, 12:17 AM
I think you'll see Jocketty gone before Dusty. Even if they drop 100 games, I expect Baker to be back for next season. I could see Jocketty just saying screw it and retire. He's got a ring and plenty of cash, you have to wonder if he's really interested in taking on this disaster or not.

WVRedsFan
08-09-2008, 02:04 AM
I think the die is cast. Dusty's a goner. I'm guessing it's why the team's just rolled over and died.
The team rolled over and died because the talent isn't there. Wayne made his bed with marginal players who he valued and signed to difficult contracts. Patterson, Freel, Coffey (minimal, I know), Codero, Arroyo, Hatteberg, and a few others. Borderline major leaguers (with the exception of Cordero) have hogtied this team. What would anyone do with this team of 3 marginal catchers and a shortstop who never plays? Add to that a starting staff depending on youngsters surrounded by number 4's and you get this. Add in an injury or two and the worst bench in the majors and you get 52-65.

Ron Madden
08-09-2008, 02:30 AM
I think you'll see Jocketty gone before Dusty. Even if they drop 100 games, I expect Baker to be back for next season. I could see Jocketty just saying screw it and retire. He's got a ring and plenty of cash, you have to wonder if he's really interested in taking on this disaster or not.

I'm afraid you might be right.

KronoRed
08-09-2008, 03:28 AM
I think you'll see Jocketty gone before Dusty. Even if they drop 100 games, I expect Baker to be back for next season. I could see Jocketty just saying screw it and retire. He's got a ring and plenty of cash, you have to wonder if he's really interested in taking on this disaster or not.

Especially with an owner who thinks winning 82 games is a worthy goal.

Losing stops now..PU