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RedLegSuperStar
08-08-2008, 11:29 PM
The Reds are 6-15 since the All-Star break.. This trend can't be sitting well with ownership and doesn't bode well for the fan base. This team is missing the simple things of the game and making game costing mistakes day in and day out. I love this team but it's so painful to watch anymore. Especially as a season ticket holder.

It poses the question as what can fix this mess? Free Agents look at this team as a team with 7 straight losing season on the brink of 8 seasons. Ownership has to over pay to lure players.

All I can think of is September call-ups and the offseason.

:thumbdown

Will M
08-08-2008, 11:37 PM
The Reds are 6-15 since the All-Star break.. This trend can't be sitting well with ownership and doesn't bode well for the fan base. This team is missing the simple things of the game and making game costing mistakes day in and day out. I love this team but it's so painful to watch anymore. Especially as a season ticket holder.

It poses the question as what can fix this mess? Free Agents look at this team as a team with 7 straight losing season on the brink of 8 seasons. Ownership has to over pay to lure players.

All I can think of is September call-ups and the offseason.

:thumbdown

1. pay up for a big free agent pitcher, re sign Dunn & sign Orlando Hudson ( Phillips to SS )
2. trade Harang, Arroyo & Cordero. big time rebuild with youth.
3. tweek the team and try to win as many games as possible but not spend too much. try to go 82-80 and sell tickets

Now, which do you think is the Reds plan?

RedLegSuperStar
08-08-2008, 11:41 PM
1. pay up for a big free agent pitcher, re sign Dunn & sign Orlando Hudson ( Phillips to SS )
2. trade Harang, Arroyo & Cordero. big time rebuild with youth.
3. tweek the team and try to win as many games as possible but not spend too much. try to go 82-80 and sell tickets

Now, which do you think is the Reds plan?

I like the way #1 sounds but #3 is the Reds plan it seems..

RedFanAlways1966
08-09-2008, 12:01 AM
Starters...

Last 4 games...
>> 9.31 ERA, 2.12 WHIP.

6 August losses...
>> 9.45 ERA, 2.18 WHIP.

Joseph
08-09-2008, 12:23 AM
Ownership gives lip service to building a winner, but does nothing tangible to facilitate that success. Is it any wonder the team is lethargic and lifeless?

Losing is the only outcome when the recipe is baked with empty talk and player apathy.

AmarilloRed
08-09-2008, 12:31 AM
John Fay made some good points on his most recent blog:


This wasn't a very deep roster to begin with. With the injuries to Aaron Harang, Jared Burton, Jerry Hairston Jr., Ryan Freel, Norris Hopper and Alex Gonzalez, it's gotten a lot thinner.

The trade of Ken Griffey Jr. thinned it a little more. Griffey was one of blog's favorite targets, but since the trade Corey Patterson has gotten the bulk of the time Griffey would have gotten. I'd still make the trade. But that's a severe drop off.

And it goes on the down the line. Homer Bailey is getting starts Harang would have gotten. Gary Majewski is getting innings Burton would have gotten.

Jeff Keppinger hasn't been the same player since he came back from the injury. He's hitting .209 since he came off the DL. Sit him and Jolbert Cabrera plays shortstop. Cabrera's played well but he's a 35-year-old guy who was last in the big leagues in 2004.

If everyone's healthy, Patterson is behind Freel, Hopper and Hairston on center field depth chart.

We didn't have a very deep roster at the start of the season, and the injuries have played a part in this year's season. What would the season be like if Gonzalez had been healthy at SS the whole year? We are counting on bench players to be replacements for starters, and they simply can't do it.

KronoRed
08-09-2008, 12:35 AM
We can't make any moves, we're trying to win as many games as we can. :explode:

fearofpopvol1
08-09-2008, 12:49 AM
How about since KGJ left the team? Maybe it's the Jr. curse...

WVRedsFan
08-09-2008, 12:57 AM
John Fay made some good points on his most recent blog:



We didn't have a very deep roster at the start of the season, and the injuries have played a part in this year's season. What would the season be like if Gonzalez had been healthy at SS the whole year? We are counting on bench players to be replacements for starters, and they simply can't do it.

Not only was it not deep, it was disfunctional. Not having a regular shortstop has hurt, but another hole was in center field which led us to Corey Patterson. The catching is beyond bad and our starting staff was made up of a real ace, a 4 starter masquerading as a 2, a kid from Texas who hadn't proven anything, a rookie, and Josh Fogg (or Matt Belisle--your choice).

The roster was poorly put together, that's not in question. And for those ready to hang Baker and Jockkety, keep this in mind. No one wanted our junk and weren't offering the impact players we needed. Over the winter, I fully expect a number of Reds to be gone with some new faces all around. I trust Jockkety to make the needed changes. Then we'll see how Baker does. God couldn't win with this bunch.

Az Red
08-09-2008, 01:10 AM
That tiny winning streak before the All Star Break fogged up the rose colored glasses. The Cass and Jock thought they could cross their fingers and hope for a miracle. Unfortunately, the real Reds came back from break.

WVRedsFan
08-09-2008, 01:20 AM
How about since KGJ left the team? Maybe it's the Jr. curse...

Since Junior was traded, the Reds are 1-7. The starters have a line like this:


IP H R ER BB SO ERA
38.2 59 33 31 14 34 7.23

The relievers have been quite good with a 4.31 ERA balooned only by Cordero's numbers tonight.

The offense has scored 28 runs (3.5 rpg), while the opposition has scored 52 (6.5 rpg).

Anytime a staff gives up 6.5 runs per game, and you offense scores 3.5, you got problems.

MartyFan
08-09-2008, 02:20 AM
Now I know how the Pirate fans feel...

WVRedsFan
08-09-2008, 02:51 AM
Now I know how the Pirate fans feel...

Better than we feel right now.

If anything we are worse than we were when BobC took over thanks to some really bad blunders.

In 2005 at this point, the Reds were 50-67.

In 2006 at this point, the Reds were 60-57. Improvement! Wow!

In 2007, we dropped to 50-67.

In 2008, we've imporved to 52-65. A full 2 game improvement in 3 years. Hallelujah.

In the meantime, the Pirates have gone from 50-67 in 2005 (compare that to our 50-67 in 2005) to 53-62 this year, a full 2 games better than the Reds. And we have the guts to slam the pitiful Pirates when we have done worse. This team is simply horrible, and even more horrible than the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates who traded away their stars and still have better record than we do over the last three years. We are at the bottom and I would suggest that our organization is now worse. That said, we have no right to put down other teams. The Reds are at the bottom and we had better just accept that. Time to retool and give up on keeping players.

MrCinatit
08-09-2008, 03:21 AM
Better than we feel right now.

If anything we are worse than we were when BobC took over thanks to some really bad blunders.

In 2005 at this point, the Reds were 50-67.

In 2006 at this point, the Reds were 60-57. Improvement! Wow!

In 2007, we dropped to 50-67.

In 2008, we've imporved to 52-65. A full 2 game improvement in 3 years. Hallelujah.

In the meantime, the Pirates have gone from 50-67 in 2005 (compare that to our 50-67 in 2005) to 53-62 this year, a full 2 games better than the Reds. And we have the guts to slam the pitiful Pirates when we have done worse. This team is simply horrible, and even more horrible than the lowly Pittsburgh Pirates who traded away their stars and still have better record than we do over the last three years. We are at the bottom and I would suggest that our organization is now worse. That said, we have no right to put down other teams. The Reds are at the bottom and we had better just accept that. Time to retool and give up on keeping players.



Only three years separate the time each team has been in the playoffs, as well (Reds, 1995, Pirates, 1992). And once a team is over double digits in years between playoff appearances - well, it hardly makes a difference.

Matt700wlw
08-09-2008, 03:40 AM
but another hole was in center field which led us to Corey Patterson.

That hole was created....for Volquez.....which lately has become another hole......

camisadelgolf
08-09-2008, 04:14 AM
lol @ people who think the Reds could afford Dunn, Hudson, and an impact starting pitcher

RedLegSuperStar
08-09-2008, 10:53 AM
lol @ people who think the Reds could afford Dunn, Hudson, and an impact starting pitcher

Why is that funny? Will it happen? Not sure, but it is possible especially if you factor in revenue, merchandice sales, players coming off the books, etc. This years payroll is between 75-80 million. I can see next season being around 85-90 million. It's all about spending the money on the right players though. The Reds have wasted so much money on potential talent instead of spending it on proven or established talent. This team has to many holes because of that. If this ownership says they want to win.. money then should be no option.. especially if you are paying close to 5 million for a manager.

RedLegSuperStar
08-09-2008, 11:07 AM
First move of action... DFA Patterson and call-up Chris Dickerson!

Razor Shines
08-09-2008, 11:11 AM
Why is that funny? Will it happen? Not sure, but it is possible especially if you factor in revenue, merchandice sales, players coming off the books, etc. This years payroll is between 75-80 million. I can see next season being around 85-90 million. It's all about spending the money on the right players though. The Reds have wasted so much money on potential talent instead of spending it on proven or established talent. This team has to many holes because of that. If this ownership says they want to win.. money then should be no option.. especially if you are paying close to 5 million for a manager.

Yeah, but someone posted the numbers on here (somewhere) showing that that with just resigning Dunn the Reds will be near 80MM next year. They aren't going to get Hudson and a starter for 10 or so million. I believe they do need to sign Dunn. Hudson is making 6.25MM this year and probably about to sign the last big contract in his ML career. He's gonna want to get paid. He'll probably demand 8-10MM.


Found it. It was camisadelgolf right here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70825&page=3

Will M
08-09-2008, 11:57 AM
Yeah, but someone posted the numbers on here (somewhere) showing that that with just resigning Dunn the Reds will be near 80MM next year. They aren't going to get Hudson and a starter for 10 or so million. I believe they do need to sign Dunn. Hudson is making 6.25MM this year and probably about to sign the last big contract in his ML career. He's gonna want to get paid. He'll probably demand 8-10MM.


Found it. It was camisadelgolf right here: http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70825&page=3

if the Reds re sign Dunn and do some other minimal tweeks this team will suck really bad again in 2009. IMO there are two viable options: either spend some bucks to add some really big talent this offseason or go into full rebuild mode.
A half ass job like we have been seeing the last few years won't get us anywhere.

Sea Ray
08-10-2008, 06:22 PM
The Reds payroll this year is sub $75 mill and that counts Griffey. I don't know why it would go up to $85-90 mill. Small market teams win with low paid, young ballplayers and then they may raise payrolls to keep those talented players. What they do not do is raise payrolls up to $90mill on a last place team and then pray for a good season.

RedEye
08-10-2008, 09:16 PM
The catching is beyond bad and our starting staff was made up of 1) a real ace, 2) a 4 starter masquerading as a 2, 3) a kid from Texas who hadn't proven anything, 4) a rookie, and 5) Josh Fogg (or Matt Belisle--your choice).

1) Aaron Harang
2) Bronson Arroyo
3) Homer Bailey
4) Johnny Cueto
5) Josh Fogg/Matt Belisle

What about Edinson Volquez? Or is he the kid from Texas?

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2008, 09:40 PM
Holding on to players in hopes of finishing at .500 is starting to look like a horrible move now isn't it? It was an awful move before and it's looking even worse now. Walt Jocketty has a been a huge disappointment.

RedlegJake
08-10-2008, 10:04 PM
So who should have been traded that would have brought anything? The only chips in the pot at the deadline were youngest guys - Votto, Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Burton, maybe EE and BP. Nobody else was going to bring squat. Heck, Walt got something for Junior when that seemed impossible. Harang was hurt and pitching poorly, Arroyo's contract meant not getting much in return except salary relief. As bad as it's going, for this deadline Walt did what he could, imo. Moves are going to be made and a lot of them but there's no way to salvage this season. Never was and I think Walt knew it even if he can't publicly state it.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2008, 10:07 PM
So who should have been traded that would have brought anything? The only chips in the pot at the deadline were youngest guys - Votto, Bruce, Volquez, Cueto, Burton, maybe EE and BP. Nobody else was going to bring squat. Heck, Walt got something for Junior when that seemed impossible. Harang was hurt and pitching poorly, Arroyo's contract meant not getting much in return except salary relief. As bad as it's going, for this deadline Walt did what he could, imo. Moves are going to be made and a lot of them but there's no way to salvage this season. Never was and I think Walt knew it even if he can't publicly state it.

Ross, Weathers, and Affeldt were the guys I would've traded. All three were rumored to be drawing interest but Walt chose not to trade them in hopes of getting to .500. I know they weren't going to bring back a great return but getting just a decent prospect would have been better than nothing IMO.

hebroncougar
08-10-2008, 10:17 PM
You know what is amazing to me? I remember threads where people were stating that the Reds had more talent than the Cardinals when the year started. And the Cards haven't had their #1 starter all year. Yet, they seem to always come up with a formula to win. Lose Edmonds? Doesn't matter. Lose Carpenter, doesn't matter. Lose their starting SS from last year, doesn't matter. Lose Duncan for the year, doesn't matter. Lose their closer, and also their #2 starter, Wainwright, doesn't matter. They don't look for excuses, they find players who can plug holes, and they have a coaching staff and manager who can maximize abilities, and put players into position to succeed. That is a huge difference with what I see around this organization anymore. You've got people here who make excuses, and say, these players aren't mine, or the Reds have had injuries, etc. I'd love for people to stop making excuses, and starting providing answers with how to build a playoff caliber team, not one who wants to win 82 games.

remdog
08-10-2008, 11:06 PM
Ross, Weathers, and Affeldt were the guys I would've traded. All three were rumored to be drawing interest but Walt chose not to trade them in hopes of getting to .500. I know they weren't going to bring back a great return but getting just a decent prospect would have been better than nothing IMO.

Interest? Interest is when you are thinking about asking some girl out if she'll buy dinner.

You are leashed to your computer thinking that you know what's going on and you don't. It's that simple. YOU DON'T KNOW! Jockety is the one that knows what, if anything, was offered and he made the call. Who's to say that he won't get a better return over the winter?

Geez.....

Rem

cincrazy
08-10-2008, 11:15 PM
Ross, Weathers, and Affeldt were the guys I would've traded. All three were rumored to be drawing interest but Walt chose not to trade them in hopes of getting to .500. I know they weren't going to bring back a great return but getting just a decent prospect would have been better than nothing IMO.

I really don't think we get anything of substance whatsoever for those three players, and I don't think Walt kept them to make a run at .500. If Walt would think that keeping those three players would help us in making a late season push, we're in a hell of a lot more trouble than I ever imagined.

Sea Ray
08-11-2008, 12:21 AM
How do you figure that Ross had value? Heck we just DFA him. If he had value wouldn't Walt have traded him instead?

WVRedsFan
08-11-2008, 12:31 AM
How do you figure that Ross had value? Heck we just DFA him. If he had value wouldn't Walt have traded him instead?
True dat.

Evidence exists that he tried to trade him and basically had no decent offers. David Ross was a .223 career batter who had a hot streak in July. He was picked up off the trash pile in 2006 for a $500K salary and given a raise to $1.6m last year that grew to $2.5 this year. He was not going to be offered a contract for 2009 and it probably didn't appear that anyone wanted him for $2.5m, so good bye.

The same is true for a lot of the players we gave out raises too. I could name them and so could you, so I'll leave it at that. We gave unrequested extensions to several players who were considered fodder by the rest of baseball. When they haven't worked out, we are stuck with them. I imagine those days are now over.

camisadelgolf
08-11-2008, 01:50 AM
Ross, Weathers, and Affeldt were the guys I would've traded. All three were rumored to be drawing interest but Walt chose not to trade them in hopes of getting to .500. I know they weren't going to bring back a great return but getting just a decent prospect would have been better than nothing IMO.

Ross just passed through waivers, meaning no one wants to trade for him. Weathers could bring in draft pick compensation. Maybe the Reds want to make an effort to re-sign Affeldt and Mike Lincoln. I doubt anyone would've traded anything for Javier Valentin, Corey Patterson, Andy Phillips, Jolbert Cabrera, Josh Fogg, nor Paul Bako.

WVRedsFan
08-11-2008, 02:31 AM
1) Aaron Harang
2) Bronson Arroyo
3) Homer Bailey
4) Johnny Cueto
5) Josh Fogg/Matt Belisle

What about Edinson Volquez? Or is he the kid from Texas?

Oops. And it was early, too. Scratch Fogg. He's gone anyway.

RedLegSuperStar
08-11-2008, 12:24 PM
Rockies wanted Josh Fogg but the Reds wanted Ryan Spilbourg

nate
08-11-2008, 12:30 PM
Ross just passed through waivers, meaning no one wants to trade for him. Weathers could bring in draft pick compensation. Maybe the Reds want to make an effort to re-sign Affeldt and Mike Lincoln. I doubt anyone would've traded anything for Javier Valentin, Corey Patterson, Andy Phillips, Jolbert Cabrera, Josh Fogg, nor Paul Bako.

Doesn't the waiver process take 10 days or am I thinking of something else?

Sea Ray
08-11-2008, 03:31 PM
Doesn't the waiver process take 10 days or am I thinking of something else?

When you DFA someone they allow you 10 days to decide what to do with him. He actually clears waivers in a day or so but they allow you 10 days to trade him, talk him into a minor league assignment, whatever.

RedLegSuperStar
08-11-2008, 03:37 PM
he was put on waivers on August 1st