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View Full Version : Ross DFA'd, Homer sent down, Hanigan called up, Harang activated



Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 11:41 AM
Ross DFA, Bailey sent down.

Activated pitcher Aaron Harang from the 15-day disabled list; optioned pitcher Homer Bailey to Class AAA Louisville of the International League; designated catcher David Ross for assignment; recalled catcher Ryan Hanigan from Louisville.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/transactions

RedsManRick
08-10-2008, 11:42 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/transactions/index.jsp

Even if he wasn't coming back, he's the best of the 3 C on the roster right now. So, we're not winning now and we're not building for the future. I wonder what the plan is then.

JaxRed
08-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Part of a trade scenario? Otherwise doesn't make much sense

RedEye
08-10-2008, 11:45 AM
Hanigan on his way up? Not sure why the Reds would want a Javy/Bako platoon going forward...

Matt700wlw
08-10-2008, 11:46 AM
Hanigan's here


From the Reds:

Today the Reds returned from a rehabilitation assignment and reinstated from the 15-day disabled list RHP Aaron Harang, optioned to Class AAA Louisville RHP Homer Bailey, designated for assignment C David Ross and recalled from Louisville C Ryan Hanigan (#29).

Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 11:46 AM
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/transactions/index.jsp

Even if he wasn't coming back, he's the best of the 3 C on the roster right now. So, we're not winning now and we're not building for the future. I wonder what the plan is then.

How does Bako stay over Ross ?

Matt700wlw
08-10-2008, 11:47 AM
How does Bako stay over Ross ?

How does Patterson stay over anybody?


Dusty's guys!!!!!!!!

westofyou
08-10-2008, 11:48 AM
How does Bako stay over Ross ?
Probably bcause the team likes the way he is working with the young pitchers, not every aspect of the game comes out of a honed piece of wood.

Despite Redszones insistance that it does.

Chip R
08-10-2008, 11:48 AM
Surprising news

edabbs44
08-10-2008, 11:49 AM
Probably bcause the team likes the way he is working with the young pitchers, not every aspect of the game comes out of a honed piece of wood.

Despite Redszones insistance that it does.

You mean there's more to baseball than OPS+ and RC/27?

Do tell.

;)

Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 11:52 AM
Probably bcause the team likes the way he is working with the young pitchers,


That's a point.
I assume that you mean to work with just Volquez and Cueto. The rest aren't that young, so does Valentin and the rookie catcher work with the rest?

RedlegJake
08-10-2008, 11:53 AM
I don't mind Bako over Ross. Bako has been working with the young guys, and his D is better than Ross, Hanigan is getting his chance. I like that. The purge of the junk is beginning. For crying out loud let Jocketty work things out. Patterson will be gone and so will a lot of other people before next season begins.
Valentin will NOT be doing any catching - Hanigan will.

NJReds
08-10-2008, 11:54 AM
That's a point.
I assume that you mean to work with just Volquez and Cueto. The rest aren't that young, so does Valentin and the rookie catcher work wit the rest?

I would expect Hanigan to get a lot of playing time, otherwise, why bring him up? Ross should have no problem finding a home.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 11:54 AM
are you joking me??? Bako is horrible.. Ross is at least a serviceable back-up... Bako doesn't belong in AAA... Patterson the same... I do like Hanigan though...

Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 11:55 AM
You mean there's more to baseball than OPS+ and RC/27?

Do tell.

;)

Pitching and defense is a priority over offense, though some on Redszone argue often and complain otherwise. ;)

mth123
08-10-2008, 11:59 AM
The team is replacing its RH Hitting catcher with a better defender from AAA who has been hitting well in 2008. Ross was probably not going to be back. Despite the common thought that he was a good defender based on his CS%, CS% is a small part of what a catcher does.

This is another step in upgrading the defense on this team. The two worst defenders from 2008 are now gone. Jeff Keppinger should be nervous. If the team is going down the list of bad defenders as it rids its roster of players, he's probably next in line.

Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 12:00 PM
Surprising news

Is it really surprising or were the Reds just the last to realize, and just slow to respond? I mean the catchers and Bailey are not new issues.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 12:02 PM
So Bailey's pretty close to being out of options, isn't he?

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:02 PM
So Bailey's pretty close to being out of options, isn't he?

no

1 per year

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:03 PM
The reds should sign Johnny Estrada and DFA Bako and Valentin next... let Hanigan be your starter and see how he does, Estrada can be the back-up and give you a little pop off the bench...

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:04 PM
Johnny Estrada?

He is a crappy catcher, c-r-a-p-p-y... and also an attitude problem, combine those two facts and see why he's played on so many teams over the past 5 years.

Pass

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:07 PM
The reds should sign Johnny Estrada and DFA Bako and Valentin next... let Hanigan be your starter and see how he does, Estrada can be the back-up and give you a little pop off the bench...

No way. He's as bad as Ross and Javy back there.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 12:07 PM
no

1 per year

So it's 1 per year during the pre-arbit years?

nate
08-10-2008, 12:08 PM
If they're "going for it", sign Pudge next year.

If they're rebuilding, stick with Hannigan. His AB song can be "Harrigan!"

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:10 PM
So it's 1 per year during the pre-arbit years?


"Options"
After three years as a pro, a player must be protected on a team's 40-man roster, or he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft (more on that later). Once he's served those three years, and assuming he is added to the 40-man roster, his club then has what are called "options" on him.

When a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the 25-man Major League roster, he is on "optional assignment." One common misconception about the rules is that a player may only be "optioned out" three times. Actually, each player has three option years, and he can be sent up and down as many times as the club chooses within those three seasons.

When you hear that a player is "out of options," that means he's been on the 40-man roster during three different seasons, beginning with his fourth as a pro, and to be sent down again he'll have to clear waivers (more on those below).

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:11 PM
Career numbers...

Estrada .277 .317 .400 42 HR 285 RBI in 2079 At-bats
Bako .231 .304 .318 21 HR 182 RBI in 2028 At-bats

I am not calling Estrada to be the savior or even the every day catcher, just a solid back-up with a little hitting ability... I would be happier with just about anyone over Bako, bring back Jason LaRue or even Kelly Stinnett... lol

Chip R
08-10-2008, 12:11 PM
So it's 1 per year during the pre-arbit years?


Yep. If they send him down next year, after the 2009 season, he'll be out of options. That's what you get for listening to talk radio and the press.

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:12 PM
Estrada .277 .317 .400 42 HR 285 RBI in 2079 At-bats
Bako .231 .304 .318 21 HR 182 RBI in 2028 At-bats

I am not calling Estrada to be the savior or even the every day catcher, just a solid back-up with a little hitting ability...

Catching... it's a defense first position.

Learn it, love it, embrace it.

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:14 PM
Career numbers...

Estrada .277 .317 .400 42 HR 285 RBI in 2079 At-bats
Bako .231 .304 .318 21 HR 182 RBI in 2028 At-bats

I am not calling Estrada to be the savior or even the every day catcher, just a solid back-up with a little hitting ability...

Upgrading from Dismal to Bad on offense is not worth the huge hit on defense.

If Estrada was Mike Piazza it would be different. That .717 OPS you posted above says he's not anyone worth comprimising the defense for. Same as Ross.

Kc61
08-10-2008, 12:14 PM
I think we have now entered 2009. I expect some more AAA prospects to come up soon. Since Louisville is headed to playoffs, Reds may move cautiously. While the Reds are obviously the key, I don't think the Reds will strip the AAA team down to nothing.

Craig Tatum can be expected to move up to AAA now. Tatum got favorable mention in BA's Prospect Hot List this week. He's been hitting better and is reputedly an excellent defensive catcher.

Bako stays to work with the younger pitchers. Javy is really only an emergency catcher now, so it's really inaccurate to say the Reds are carrying three catchers. Javy plays first base and pinch hits more than anything these days.

I would guess that a new starting catcher is a major priority for next year. Hanigan could be a platoon or backup next year if he shows well.

NJReds
08-10-2008, 12:14 PM
This is another step in upgrading the defense on this team. The two worst defenders from 2008 are now gone. Jeff Keppinger should be nervous. If the team is going down the list of bad defenders as it rids its roster of players, he's probably next in line.

Keppinger is a good bat off the bench. Unfortunatley, there are no better SS options for now.

Corey should follow Ross out the door, and the Reds should bring up Dickerson. When Votto comes back, give Valentin or Andy Phillips the pink slip.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:15 PM
Catching... it's a defense first position.

Learn it, love it, embrace it.

I hope we're not talking about Bako in regards to defense.. you want me to post those number comparisons too?

RedsManRick
08-10-2008, 12:19 PM
Catching... it's a defense first position.

Learn it, love it, embrace it.

And Javy can't play defense as a catcher, and can't hit well enough for anywhere else, including PH. Why is he still here?

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:20 PM
I hope we're not talking about Bako in regards to defense.. you want me to post those number comparisons too?

If catching can't be described with just numbers, it would be like describing a sunset. If you've seen enough of them you can separate the wheat from the chaft.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:20 PM
And Javy can't play defense as a catcher, and can't hit well enough for anywhere else, including PH. Why is he still here?

because he has a good attitude... :rolleyes:

JaxRed
08-10-2008, 12:21 PM
I hope with a lefty on the mound we see Hannigan in there. But Dusty seems to let them sit the first game...

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:22 PM
Keppinger is a good bat off the bench. Unfortunatley, there are no better SS options for now.

Corey should follow Ross out the door, and the Reds should bring up Dickerson. When Votto comes back, give Valentin or Andy Phillips the pink slip.

I agree that I'd keep Kepp around as a bench player. I also want the Dickerson for Patterson switch to happen yesterday. But, this young pitching staff has hit the wall and much of that is from being worn out by getting all the extra outs the defense forces them to get. Subbing Dickerson for Patterson doesn't really hurt the defense any, but I think good defenders will be kept around to help get the staff through the 400 or so innings left in the season.

As much as I'd like to see it, Dickerson isn't the clear upgrade on defense to patterson that Hannigan is to Ross.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:22 PM
If catching can't be described with just numbers, it would be like describing a sunset. If you've seen enough of them you can separate the wheat from the chaft.

are you Paul Bako?? I have seen enough baseball to know... I played high school and summer ball with and against players who are playing professional baseball as we speak, I know the difference in a good, decent, and terrible catcher... Paul Bako is terrible, Estrada is decent but closer to terrible and Valentin is terrible... Even if it's only a minimal upgrade, doesn't that matter in the long run... I guess we agree to disagree....

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:24 PM
And Javy can't play defense as a catcher, and can't hit well enough for anywhere else, including PH. Why is he still here?

To piss you off?

How many games has he caught this season?

I count 2 whole starts in the past 2 months he's not really a catcher anymore with those sort of numbers... but let's keep pretending he's blocking Johnny Bench AND Smokey Burgess from helping this team out.

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:26 PM
are you Paul Bako?? I have seen enough baseball to know... I played high school and summer ball with and against players who are playing professional baseball as we speak, I know the difference in a good, decent, and terrible catcher... Paul Bako is terrible, Estrada is decent but closer to terrible and Valentin is terrible... Even if it's only a minimal upgrade, doesn't that matter in the long run... I guess we agree to disagree....

Good for you, you must be the first guy here who has played baseball.

Saying Johnny Estrada is decent is where we'll part on this discourse.

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:27 PM
are you Paul Bako?? I have seen enough baseball to know... I played high school and summer ball with and against players who are playing professional baseball as we speak, I know the difference in a good, decent, and terrible catcher... Paul Bako is terrible, Estrada is decent but closer to terrible and Valentin is terrible... Even if it's only a minimal upgrade, doesn't that matter in the long run... I guess we agree to disagree....

If you think Estrada is a better defender than Bako, then you probably haven't seen enough of Estrada. I don't think Bako is great by any means, but Ross, Javy, and Estrada are all bottom of the barrell when it comes to defense behind the plate. Bako is clearly better than all three defensively.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:29 PM
Good for you, you must be the first guy here who has played baseball.

Saying Johnny Estrada is decent is where we'll part on this discourse.

ok

NJReds
08-10-2008, 12:29 PM
I agree that I'd keep Kepp around as a bench player. I also want the Dickerson for Patterson switch to happen yesterday. But, this young pitching staff has hit the wall and much of that is from being worn out by getting all the extra outs the defense forces them to get. Subbing Dickerson for Patterson doesn't really hurt the defense any, but I think good defenders will be kept around to help get the staff through the 400 or so innings left in the season.

As much as I'd like to see it, Dickerson isn't the clear upgrade on defense to patterson that Hannigan is to Ross.

In that case, they can let Valentin go now and bring up Janish, bat him 8th and live with his bat.

cincrazy
08-10-2008, 12:29 PM
If you think Estarda is a better defender than Bako, then you probably haven't seen enough of Estrada. I don't think Bako is great by any means, but Ross, Javy, and Estrada are all bottom of the barrell when it comes to defense behind the plate. Bako is clearly better than all three defensively.

Not to mention the experience factor. Bako spent many years as the personal catcher of Greg Maddux, and Maddux loved the guy. I can't help but think he could help out the young guy's we have with little tidbits about Maddux.

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:31 PM
And Javy can't play defense as a catcher, and can't hit well enough for anywhere else, including PH. Why is he still here?

Actually its a good question. Personally, he's the guy I'd can when calling up Dickerson (or maybe Janish). Patterson can play D and the team needs that so I'd keep him as a late inning caddy for Dunn.

Maybe Javy goes when Votto comes back and Rosales sticks around.

mth123
08-10-2008, 12:32 PM
In that case, they can let Valentin go now and bring up Janish, bat him 8th and live with his bat.

I'd be up for that to happen.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:34 PM
Anyone else think Valaika could make an impact much sooner than Janish?

Cyclone792
08-10-2008, 12:36 PM
Good to see Hanigan up here. He should be a defensive upgrade behind the plate, and he also knows how to get on base at a decent clip. Hanigan's the kind of guy that's nice to have around during his cheap, pre-arbit years as he hits his late 20s.

I'd like to see the Reds try to groom someone as a solid pinch hitter so we can kick Valentin to the curb, perhaps a guy such as Tonys Gutierrez who likely has no chance as a starter but could be a decent bat off the bench given his propensity to get on base.

As for Valentin, he's about as useless a player as I've seen. He can't hit, he can't defend, he can't run, and he can't throw. As much as I loathe Patterson's presence on this roster, at least Corey can help the team out in center field by chasing down a fly ball or three.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Back to the Ross topic...You think a trade has been worked out for Ross? Maybe Detroit, With Pudge gone, they have Brandon Inge and former Red Dane Sardinha.

westofyou
08-10-2008, 12:37 PM
Back to the Ross topic...You think a trade has been worked out for Ross? Maybe Detroit, With Pudge gone, they have Brandon Inge and former Red Dane Sardinha.

The Marlins were kicking his tires last month

mbgrayson
08-10-2008, 12:43 PM
Back to the Ross topic...You think a trade has been worked out for Ross? Maybe Detroit, With Pudge gone, they have Brandon Inge and former Red Dane Sardinha.

I do think it is possible that a trade is in the offing. My guess is that Ross passed through waivers, and that led to being DFA'd. Now the Reds have ten days to trade him, I think. ESPN shows that David's 2008 salary is $2,525,000. That may be high enough to get him through waivers.

Kc61
08-10-2008, 12:47 PM
Anyone else think Valaika could make an impact much sooner than Janish?

Not me, I think Janish can add right now and should never have been sent down.

Valaika is reputedly more of an offensive player, perhaps more of a Keppinger type (that is, Kepp before his injury).

The Reds have to find a starting shortstop who can do it all. But I'll take Janish as the backup, an occasional hit and a whole lot of defense.

Falls City Beer
08-10-2008, 01:01 PM
Catching... it's a defense first position.

Learn it, love it, embrace it.

This honestly can't be reiterated enough. And it's something Walt understands above most GMs.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 01:03 PM
And Javy can't play defense as a catcher, and can't hit well enough for anywhere else, including PH. Why is he still here?

b/c he's our future everyday 3B, that's why

LoganBuck
08-10-2008, 01:05 PM
Paul Bako annoys me.

Hence, I don't like this at all.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 01:07 PM
Good to see Hanigan up here. He should be a defensive upgrade behind the plate, and he also knows how to get on base at a decent clip. Hanigan's the kind of guy that's nice to have around during his cheap, pre-arbit years as he hits his late 20s.

I'd like to see the Reds try to groom someone as a solid pinch hitter so we can kick Valentin to the curb, perhaps a guy such as Tonys Gutierrez who likely has no chance as a starter but could be a decent bat off the bench given his propensity to get on base.

As for Valentin, he's about as useless a player as I've seen. He can't hit, he can't defend, he can't run, and he can't throw. As much as I loathe Patterson's presence on this roster, at least Corey can help the team out in center field by chasing down a fly ball or three.

But Javy can play 3B!

Falls City Beer
08-10-2008, 01:09 PM
On a talent balance this is mostly chair-shuffling. But it is message-sending too.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 01:09 PM
This honestly can't be reiterated enough. And it's something Walt understands above most GMs.

The only problem is that our current roster is made up of a lot of "defense first" guys that have marginal D at best....

Eventually we'll have to add some actual talent to this roster to enjoy the luxury that is having a position or two that is truly defense first.

Falls City Beer
08-10-2008, 01:11 PM
The only problem is that our current roster is made up of a lot of "defense first" guys that have marginal D at best....

Eventually we'll have to add some actual talent to this roster to enjoy the luxury that is having a position or two that is truly defense first.

I understand that, but Hannigan is a defense-first catcher, and in installing him, Walt is doing what he can right now to lay the framework. If Hannigan can stick as his defense-first catcher, then maybe he won't have to trade for a Torrealba in the offseason.

And thank god Homer's gone.

mth123
08-10-2008, 01:14 PM
The only problem is that our current roster is made up of a lot of "defense first" guys that have marginal D at best....



Besides Bako and the just removed Ross who? Castro qualified I suppose and Gonzlaez if he was active maybe.

I see a team of offense first guys who aren't very good on offense. That would include guys like Freel, Hopper, Hairston (who's been good this year), Keppinger and Javy.

BCubb2003
08-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Yes, a player's minus offense does not equal a plus defense. But an above-average defensive catcher, Phillips at short, a decent defensive second baseman, and an above-average centerfielder is within reason. Then of course, the corner guys actually have to start hitting.

mbgrayson
08-10-2008, 01:17 PM
Hitting lines this season:

Bako .216/.289/.340
Ross .231/.381/.366
Valentin .253/.294/.358

Bako is 36, Ross is 31, and Valentin is 32 (almost 33).

I really hope there is some kind of trade behind this move. If not, it makes no sense. Ross has a real strength in that OBP compared to the other two. I am all for calling up Hannigan, but I would have DFA'd Bako or Valentin first, unless a trade is in the works.

GAC
08-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Paul Bako annoys me.

Hence, I don't like this at all.


All three of these catchers annoyed me. ;)

I'm somewhat surprised by the move with Ross over Valentin. I guess they figure Javier is more valuable off the bench.

But Ross will not be missed, and Javier will (should) be gone after this season IMO.

nate
08-10-2008, 01:29 PM
The Marlins were kicking his tires last month

I think they signed LoDuca to a minor league deal and activated Treanor from the DL.

flyer85
08-10-2008, 01:32 PM
Hanigan is regarded as a plus defender, something the Reds don't have at the moment.

Start printing those playoff tickets. :D

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 01:36 PM
Hanigan is regarded as a plus defender, something the Reds don't have at the moment.

Start printing those playoff tickets. :D

He was also hitting .325 in AAA... I think he'll be able to hit a little too..

oneupper
08-10-2008, 01:38 PM
The Louisville Bats chemistry is going to be messed up now. :D

Seriously, I hope there is a trade for Ross. He seemed quite serviceable and in limited action had a .381 OBP this year.

Is a trade actually possible? Or just through the waiver route?


According to Yahoo, Hanigan gets the start today.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 01:40 PM
The Louisville Bats chemistry is going to be messed up now. :D

Seriously, I hope there is a trade for Ross. He seemed quite serviceable and in limited action had a .381 OBP this year.

Is a trade actually possible? Or just through the waiver route?


According to Yahoo, Hanigan gets the start today.

since he more than likely passed through waivers, I guess he can be traded to anyone... The Reds have 10 days to trade from today...

KronoRed
08-10-2008, 01:43 PM
Glad the Bailey show is over for now, as for the catchers, big bowl of whoopie there.

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 01:44 PM
I understand that, but Hannigan is a defense-first catcher, and in installing him, Walt is doing what he can right now to lay the framework. If Hannigan can stick as his defense-first catcher, then maybe he won't have to trade for a Torrealba in the offseason.

And thank god Homer's gone.

Now if we can only change Homer's address from the Cincy farm system to another MLB organization entirely....

Unfortunately, his value is virtually non-existent.

flyer85
08-10-2008, 01:47 PM
He was also hitting .325 in AAA... I think he'll be able to hit a little too..hoefully, but at least if he doesnt he can provide better defense

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 01:48 PM
I'm really hoping Walt can flip Homer for something of value this off-season..

Matt700wlw
08-10-2008, 01:51 PM
I bet Homer's back in a few weeks when the rosters expand

Highlifeman21
08-10-2008, 01:52 PM
Besides Bako and the just removed Ross who? Castro qualified I suppose and Gonzlaez if he was active maybe.

I see a team of offense first guys who aren't very good on offense. That would include guys like Freel, Hopper, Hairston (who's been good this year), Keppinger and Javy.

Ross (when he was still on the 25 man)
Bako
Hanigan
Cabrera
Hairston
Brandon Phillips
Patterson

All defense first guys (Phillips is the only guy who has any track record of anything positive offensively)

And you're right, the majority of the team is a bunch of guys that are offense first that just aren't that great offensively.

mth123
08-10-2008, 01:53 PM
I'm really hoping Walt can flip Homer for something of value this off-season..

To his old team (as he did many times after moving from OAK to STL) for Bryan Anderson. Duncan could probably fix Bailey and Anderson is a long term catcher who is blocked by Yadier Molina.

I disagree with the notion that Homer has no value. Teams may try to steal him, but they value him. I think the Reds really messed him up, but there is still time and I think he'll be a plus starter eventually.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 01:56 PM
To his old team (as he did many times after moving from OAK to STL) for Bryan Anderson. Duncan could probably fix Bailey and Anderson is a long term catcher who is blocked by Yadier Molina.

I disagree with the notion that Homer has no value. Teams may try to steal him, but they value him. I think the Reds really messed him up, but there is still time and I think he'll be a plus starter eventually.

I'd do that trade in a heartbeat... Question is, would the Cardinals?

MartyFan
08-10-2008, 02:00 PM
I'd do that trade in a heartbeat... Question is, would the Cardinals?

Bailey to the Cardinals? NO WAY...I don't care what the haul is...the last thing I want to see is a pitcher with the potential of Homer working with Duncan.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 02:01 PM
Bailey to the Cardinals? NO WAY...I don't care what the haul is...the last thing I want to see is a pitcher with the potential of Homer working with Duncan.

I know... It would be hard to fathom, but Bryan Anderson is a young, stud catcher...

johngalt
08-10-2008, 02:08 PM
I hope we're not talking about Bako in regards to defense.. you want me to post those number comparisons too?

He must do something right defensively for Greg Maddux to make him his personal catcher while Bako was in Atlanta.

WVRedsFan
08-10-2008, 02:09 PM
Dusty says it was time to make changes. He hopes he goes to a contender (maybe a little hint), and Hannigan will start. Interesting.

I totally agree with this move. About time we get started.

Ltlabner
08-10-2008, 02:11 PM
If Bako's strength is "working with the young guys", then he's really not cutting it there either.

He better help Volquez, Cueto and Bailey get their era's below 2.00 to make up for that horrable bat.

While a true catch & throw catcher is usually ok for a team, this team needs offense too.

Ron Madden
08-10-2008, 02:11 PM
I hope Hanigan gets the lions share of starts the rest of the season.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 02:12 PM
He must do something right defensively for Greg Maddux to make him his personal catcher while Bako was in Atlanta.

that conversation was over long ago.... I don't think he is good defensively and you do... we just disagree... He calls an okay game I guess, but I haven't seen much besides that in regards to throwing runners out and keeping the ball in front of him...

lollipopcurve
08-10-2008, 02:14 PM
Great news. Time to start finding out what some of these AAA guys have. I'd check out Ramon Ramirez/ Matt Maloney in 5th/6th starters spots down the stretch (to keep Cueto's and Volquez's innings down), Dickerson in CF, Roenicke/Herrera in the pen, at least. Get Rosales several starts, too.

jesusfan
08-10-2008, 02:17 PM
Great arm right there by Hanigan to almost get Matsui on the stolen base.. he had a huge lead and jump...

KittyDuran
08-10-2008, 02:20 PM
;)Looking into the dugout Arroyo isn't wearing black...

marcshoe
08-10-2008, 02:30 PM
Dusty said pre-game that Hanigan (can I add another 'n'? That just looks awkward.) and Bako will be splitting time for the rest of the year.

This move seems to be step one in what will become a long parade of dumping players in an acknowledgement that this team has to be completely restructured, I hope. No need to wait until the season's over; see if guys like Hanigan have a future here now.

*BaseClogger*
08-10-2008, 03:12 PM
a big NO to Ivan this off offseason...

mth123
08-10-2008, 04:01 PM
a big NO to Ivan this off offseason...

Agree. The right move was to get Inge before the season while the Tigers were trying to give him away.

hebroncougar
08-10-2008, 04:19 PM
He must do something right defensively for Greg Maddux to make him his personal catcher while Bako was in Atlanta.

Yep, he wasn't Javy Lopez, who couldn't catch a cold.

_Sir_Charles_
08-10-2008, 05:12 PM
I can only hope that it's finally sunk in for Walt & Dusty. It's time to see what these kids can do for us for next season. Waiting until September is pointless. Besides, come september...other teams will have brought up kids too. I want to see what ours can do against the true big leaguers, not opposing teams' late season callups.

Hanigan, Rosales, Dickerson should be getting the lions' share of the AB's for the rest of the season IMO. Roenicke & Herrera should be up here shortly too. It's time to cut the dead wood out. Patterson, Phillips, Weathers, Majewski (I had hope for him early in the season...but he's reverted to his true form), Bako, Valentine, and maybe Cabrera. I just don't see the point in waiting any longer. I couldn't care less what these kids are "projected" to do. All the data in the world won't tell you that. Only seeing for yourself will do it.

BCubb2003
08-10-2008, 06:46 PM
September comes early in Cincinnati, but October never arrives.

Team Clark
08-10-2008, 06:52 PM
Probably bcause the team likes the way he is working with the young pitchers, not every aspect of the game comes out of a honed piece of wood.

Despite Redszones insistance that it does.

Agree 100%. David Ross' game plans despite the fluff articles that would lead you to believe otherwise are horrible. Ross can study reports all he wants but the fingers he puts down in certain situations is flat out mind boggling. Granted the Reds advance staff has been laughable for many years. At some point you need a catcher that knows how to shake up a game, handle a pitcher and provide SOLID defense. Ross only showed flashes of defense when he first arrived. His arm is still in good shape.

Bako calls a good game. He blocks well. Bako receives much better than Ross and worlds above Valentin. He knows when to get in someone's butt about a lackkluster performance. Both he and Ross have from time to time been victims of poor pitch execution but what catcher has not had that happen?

Spring~Fields
08-10-2008, 06:54 PM
Agree 100%. David Ross' game plans despite the fluff articles that would lead you to believe otherwise are horrible. Ross can study reports all he wants but the fingers he puts down in certain situations is flat out mind boggling. Granted the Reds advance staff has been laughable for many years. At some point you need a catcher that knows how to shake up a game, handle a pitcher and provide SOLID defense. Ross only showed flashes of defense when he first arrived. His arm is still in good shape.

Bako calls a good game. He blocks well. Bako receives much better than Ross and worlds above Valentin. He knows when to get in someone's butt about a lackkluster performance. Both he and Ross have from time to time been victims of poor pitch execution but what catcher has not had that happen?

TC are the catchers calling the pitches or the bench?

traderumor
08-10-2008, 07:09 PM
It's now Groundhog Day in Cincy, circa 2001-current

Team Clark
08-10-2008, 07:14 PM
TC are the catchers calling the pitches or the bench?

The catchers. In recent memory, Valentin is the only one that had pitches signaled to him. That was maybe 10 times over the course of maybe a half dozen games. IIRC, that was his first season here. Boone called pitches when he was here, or in his words made "suggestions". LaRue used to love that. :D

Degenerate39
08-10-2008, 07:16 PM
Harang being activated is no surprise. It was either Homer or Fogg being sent down so no surprise there. Ross is a surprise but I'm glad to see Hanigan is up.

It's too bad Javy or Patterson are still here though.

cincrazy
08-10-2008, 07:22 PM
The catchers. In recent memory, Valentin is the only one that had pitches signaled to him. That was maybe 10 times over the course of maybe a half dozen games. IIRC, that was his first season here. Boone called pitches when he was here, or in his words made "suggestions". LaRue used to love that. :D

Our current catching situation makes me miss LaRue. And I can't believe I'm making that statement.

_Sir_Charles_
08-10-2008, 08:29 PM
Our current catching situation makes me miss LaRue. And I can't believe I'm making that statement.

Why so pessimistic? Hannigan was 2 for 4 with a dinger. He nailed a guy at home and caught a solid game. Same story as in Louisville this season. I'll remain optimistic until I have reason to think otherwise. Bako/Valentine/Ross had their shot to make me happy. Time for a fresh start.

cincrazy
08-10-2008, 08:34 PM
Why so pessimistic? Hannigan was 2 for 4 with a dinger. He nailed a guy at home and caught a solid game. Same story as in Louisville this season. I'll remain optimistic until I have reason to think otherwise. Bako/Valentine/Ross had their shot to make me happy. Time for a fresh start.

Sorry, should have clarified. I wasn't talking about Hannigan. The catching situation has improved, no question about it. But I'd still take LaRue over Valentin or Bako without thinking twice.

Az Red
08-10-2008, 08:57 PM
From Baker's comments, it sounds like more moves coming. Maybe there is a package of Ross and Homer going somewhere. Unfortunately, anything decent in return won't make it trough waivers. Maybe minor league fodder.

But, at least something was done.

GAC
08-10-2008, 09:07 PM
They stated in the pre-game that Homer would be back in September when the rosters can be expanded.

HokieRed
08-10-2008, 09:09 PM
Walt is starting to make moves I really like. He made the hard call to trade Junior, recognizing that we had to get beyond that issue and make it clear there weren't going to be negotiations over whether Jr. would be here no years, one or two. Now he makes it clear he's not going to overpay for Krivsky-style mediocrity in Ross. These are very sound decisions.
IMO, there's no chance that Bako, Javy, Patterson, A. Phillips, and probably some others (Affeldt and Weathers) will be back next year. DFAing Ross rather than Bako is strictly a platoon matter.

HokieRed
08-10-2008, 09:13 PM
I'd be very surprised to see Homer go anywhere. Homer was definitely a good bit better in his last start. He was throwing consistently 95-96, throwing an 84-87 slider for strikes, and showing both a change and a high 70's curveball. It would be absurd to trade that kind of talent for what Homer will likely bring right now. He needs work and he's probably taken enough of a beating for right now. I also wonder whether the plan is to bring Bobby Livingston back soon to see how he's throwing and make a decision about his future. Fogg will be gone soon, but if Harang and Livingston are in the rotation, that leaves Homer for L'ville.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2008, 09:45 PM
David Ross stinks no doubt but I would have DFA'd Paul Bako before Ross. While Ross was awful defensively, at least he could get on base at a decent slip. Meanwhile Paul Bako is one of the worst players I have ever seen. He can't hit all, he can't run, and his defense is awful. He may have been a good defender when he was younger but he's awful behind the plate now.

And I'm amazed Josh Fogg still has a job. Walt continues to baffle me.

RedlegJake
08-10-2008, 09:49 PM
I must be watching a different Paul Bako than you OBM. Bako's defense has been okay - not sterling but certainly not horrible. The hitting - now that is terrible and his defense isn't good enough to overcome it but I think that brush paints his whole game in fans' eyes.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2008, 09:53 PM
I must be watching a different Paul Bako than you OBM. Bako's defense has been okay - not sterling but certainly not horrible. The hitting - now that is terrible and his defense isn't good enough to overcome it but I think that brush paints his whole game in fans' eyes.

From what I've seen his defense is awful. He can't block a ball to save his life. I don't know how many times this season I've seen him miss a very catchable ball. I think he needs to join Ross in the DFA department soon. Hopefully Hanigan gets the bulk the playing time from here on out.

knuckler
08-10-2008, 10:02 PM
At first I was surprised by the timing, but I suspect the motivation for bringing up Hanigan now is more than just to see what he is. It's also so the pitchers, both young and old, can get used to pitching to him. Spring training doesn't get nearly enough innings and not in "real" game situations, and if he's a backup he won't get much opportunity early next season either.

VR
08-10-2008, 10:19 PM
Since Paul Bako woke up May 10th, he has an OPS of .462.
Over that same time period, David Ross is at .771.


Since June 10, Bako is at .421,
Since June 10, Ross is .807.


It's almost like arguing CP over AD in left because of the defensive advantage.

10 teams in 11 years, there's a reason for that.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2008, 10:39 PM
And I'm amazed Josh Fogg still has a job. Walt continues to baffle me.

It's either Fogg, an ill prepared young guy, or some other retread. Right now, those are the choices. As far as I'm concerned, each of those choices stink, and none represent a viable rotation candidate right now.

Fogg may as well take the beating. He's proved throughout his life he can do that as well as anyone. It's not like there is a bunch of studs knocking at the door that could outperform him.

OnBaseMachine
08-10-2008, 10:42 PM
I personally would like to see Matt Maloney get a chance. I realize he's not going to set the world on fire but I think he's can eventually develop into a solid 5th starter and with him already 24 years old I don't see the problem with letting him get a couple starts in the big leagues this season.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2008, 10:45 PM
From what I've seen his defense is awful. He can't block a ball to save his life. I don't know how many times this season I've seen him miss a very catchable ball. I think he needs to join Ross in the DFA department soon.


I think the DFA thing is thrown around too often. Ya, Bako stinks, and doesn't do anything particularly well. But do any of the alternatives do anything better? We don't have any catching prospects ready to do a damn thing here.

That's why Bako is here. Whether you agree or not, he's got a reputation as a guy that handles pitchers well. At this point, Volquez and Cueto are comfortable with him, no use changing that midseason. Hanigan will likely catch the other guys.

Patrick Bateman
08-10-2008, 10:47 PM
I personally would like to see Matt Maloney get a chance. I realize he's not going to set the world on fire but I think he's can eventually develop into a solid 5th starter and with him already 24 years old I don't see the problem with letting him get a couple starts in the big leagues this season.

I personally don't think he's ready. I'd rather he dominate AAA first before he gets a promotion to the bigs. At this point, he'd likely be just as bad as Fogg. I'm content waiting until he's truly ready, where there's little to learn at AAA. That's when he will be equipped to handle the advancement in the majors. I'm tired of seeing kids getting needlessly beat around at the major league level. There's just nothing to be gained in those kind of beatings.

HokieRed
08-10-2008, 11:39 PM
Livingston threw seven scoreless for Louisville tonight, walking two and striking out 6. I think we will be seeing a number of different arms taking the work load the rest of the season--Livingston, Fogg, maybe Masset, maybe one or more of the other L'villeans. The team's doing nothing; the important thing now is to make sure nobody throws too many innings (over 180, IMO).

4256 Hits
08-10-2008, 11:43 PM
Since Paul Bako woke up May 10th, he has an OPS of .462.
Over that same time period, David Ross is at .771.


Since June 10, Bako is at .421,
Since June 10, Ross is .807.


It's almost like arguing CP over AD in left because of the defensive advantage.

10 teams in 11 years, there's a reason for that.


This is the exact reason I am completely :confused: about this move. This is just going to make this terrible offense even that much worse. If they want to play for next year, which I am all for, they why is Javy, Patterson, and A. Phillips still around, they all have no place on any teams 25 man roster? Why hasn't half the bull pen been traded for player that can help in the future?

HokieRed
08-10-2008, 11:48 PM
While we're talking DFA's, I'd like to commend WJ for DFAing McBeth. Hopefully Majewski will be next (among the pitchers that is).

remdog
08-10-2008, 11:51 PM
I personally would like to see Matt Maloney get a chance. I realize he's not going to set the world on fire but I think he's can eventually develop into a solid 5th starter and with him already 24 years old I don't see the problem with letting him get a couple starts in the big leagues this season.

Aw, Matt Maloney. Visions of sugar plum fairies and Phil Dumatrait dance through my mind. Seems I heard that siren's song regarding Phil from many on this board about this time last year. Let Maloney work on his game in AAA. That's what it's for.

And, BTW, there is no such thing as a solid 5th starter. They are 5th starters exactly because they are not solid. It's an oxymoron, and for a good reason.

Rem

BCubb2003
08-10-2008, 11:59 PM
And, BTW, there is no such thing as a solid 5th starter. They are 5th starters exactly because they are not solid. It's an oxymoron, and for a good reason.

Rem

I agree. Every team's fifth starter has issues.

HokieRed
08-11-2008, 12:01 AM
On the LA Angels the 5th starter is either Garland or Weaver. They would certainly seem to qualify as, at least, "solid" pitchers.

AmarilloRed
08-11-2008, 12:06 AM
Baker said having Hanigan in the big leagues will allow him to learn from Bako, whom the manager called one of the best at handling pitchers. He hoped those lessons will better prepare Hanigan for whatever the future might be.

I suppose this is why Bako was kept over Ross. Baker is expecting Bako to help Hanigan in his ability to handle pitchers(although I am not sure Hanigan needs the help).

cincrazy
08-11-2008, 12:10 AM
On the LA Angels the 5th starter is either Garland or Weaver. They would certainly seem to qualify as, at least, "solid" pitchers.

The Angels are the exception to the rule. The Yankees are in the thick of the playoff race, and they're running Rasner and Giese out there. That's more the norm.

remdog
08-11-2008, 12:20 AM
I suppose this is why Bako was kept over Ross. Baker is expecting Bako to help Hanigan in his ability to handle pitchers(although I am not sure Hanigan needs the help).


I'm thinking Dusty was talking mostly in terms of pitches to call, based on both the pitchers' ability and what the hitter will do with a particular pitch, and game situations.

Rem

Team Clark
08-11-2008, 12:23 AM
Our current catching situation makes me miss LaRue. And I can't believe I'm making that statement.

To some degree I miss LaRue too. He was hot and cold behind the plate and worse at the plate. I got a kick out of his Willie Nelson walk up music.

Ross, for whatever reason just really fell off the map. Something a lot of people may not take notice of is the fact that catching is about rhythm just as much as pitching/hitting. Once you lose that good bit of timing and you're receiving suffers you are quickly exposed. You get a late break on your blocks, you miss frames and you actually start to doubt yourself and the CALLS you make in tough spots.

I had a great conversation with Benito Santiago about this years ago. He said that his injuries were limiting his ability to block and receive. He was basically just using his glove hand to smother balls. His physical limitations were affecting his game plans. He got his legs taken care of and came back strong for a few years and made a nice turn around.

mbgrayson
08-11-2008, 01:18 AM
There was this little note in Hal McCoy's blog:


Baker said there were waivers on Ross, but no teams claimed him, but there were some teams interested in him.

So there may yet be a trade. They have ten days....

Matt700wlw
08-11-2008, 01:26 AM
There was this little note in Hal McCoy's blog:



So there may yet be a trade. They have ten days....

I think there will be. He can help a team.....he has a nice arm, some pop in his bat....not overly expensive....doable salary for a contender

REDREAD
08-11-2008, 10:35 AM
Edit: didn't read the entire thread before posting.