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Cant Touch This
08-11-2008, 02:23 PM
I'm starting to hear this on the surface from sources "close to the organization." It's the best I can do unfortunately, especially from out of state. Anyone else hearing report or tremors about this locally?

OPS
08-11-2008, 02:28 PM
I don't know how this could be true. Has he passed through waivers?

zjr1717
08-11-2008, 02:29 PM
Dunn to the D-backs...


http://www.ktar.com/sports/?nid=22&sid=930425 (http://www.ktar.com/sports/?nid=22&sid=930425)

OPS
08-11-2008, 02:34 PM
Looks like it is true after all.

bgwilly31
08-11-2008, 02:36 PM
WTH is going on.

Why?

Why now. . . .

Who for......we better get a great return. But thus far what im hearing were getting screwed!!!!!

robmadden1
08-11-2008, 02:36 PM
Dunn playing right and not left for d-backs?

robmadden1
08-11-2008, 02:37 PM
They are talking about it on 700 wlw right now.

GoReds33
08-11-2008, 02:37 PM
Just looking quickly at the deal, this Dallas Buck doesn't seem to be that bad of a pickup.. He's 22, and still pitching in A ball. I'd love to see him progress to AA by the end of the year, with a shot at the Majors from Spring Training.

Here are his stats:


Year Age* Lg Tm G GS SH IP H ER HR BB K G/F W L S ERA WHIP
2007 22 A Vis 16 16 0 97.7 84 37 10 31 88 - 4 4 0 3.41 1.177

reds77
08-11-2008, 02:38 PM
Hopefully this Buck guy and the two others make it worth giving up a 40 HR guy.

OPS
08-11-2008, 02:39 PM
I hope Dallas Buck is not the centerpiece of the deal.

Javy Pornstache
08-11-2008, 02:39 PM
Ken Rosenthal says that the Dbacks "failed" to get him.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8437824/Sources:-D-backs-fail-in-bid-to-land-Reds'-Dunn

OPS
08-11-2008, 02:44 PM
Ken Rosenthal says that the Dbacks "failed" to get him.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8437824/Sources:-D-backs-fail-in-bid-to-land-Reds'-Dunn

That article doesn't make much sense. Did they, or did they not get the trade done?

Manut Bol
08-11-2008, 02:45 PM
That article doesn't make much sense. Did they, or did they not get the trade done?

Yeah, I don't get it either. It says they got him, but now Dunn will stay with the Reds. Huh?

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:46 PM
They got him in terms of the waiver claim, but failed to reach a deal within the 48 hour time limit.

BUTLER REDSFAN
08-11-2008, 02:47 PM
any1 else having issues getting wlw all of a sudden i cant get it from my radio at work??

REDblooded
08-11-2008, 02:47 PM
best









day








ever

I(heart)Freel
08-11-2008, 02:50 PM
Heard from a Reds insider that it happened... past tense... but can't seem to get a second source.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 02:52 PM
I'm heartbroken

Bigg Red Smokey
08-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Now I wish that article about the Pirates being ahead of the Reds on rebuilding was never published.............

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:52 PM
He didn't get traded

captainmorgan07
08-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Stunning move here. I thought for sure they'd let him play out the year and then just not resign him. I have trust in Walt he knows what he's doing.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Or did he? WTF is going on

Javy Pornstache
08-11-2008, 02:54 PM
Now Rosenthal says it DID go through.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8437824/Sources:-D-backs-fail-in-bid-to-land-Reds'-Dunn

CRedsLarkin11
08-11-2008, 02:55 PM
Just saw it on Sportscenter as well, seems to have went through

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 02:57 PM
This is a dark day

REDblooded
08-11-2008, 02:57 PM
stark is saying it's good too

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:58 PM
This is a dark day

It's not that dark. He obviously wasn't coming back next year. At least he has a chance to win now.

robmadden1
08-11-2008, 02:59 PM
http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3291023&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Slyder
08-11-2008, 03:02 PM
To all those who said we ought to give away Dunn for a bag of balls... you got your wish. Thats all I can say right now without getting warned.

I(heart)Freel
08-11-2008, 03:02 PM
A likely first rounder in 2006 that got pushed down because of an injury before the draft is a bag of balls?

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:03 PM
best









day








ever

You took the words right out of my mouth. The Reds finally can move forward!!!!

OH HAPPY DAY!!!!!!

Boston Red
08-11-2008, 03:03 PM
To all those who said we ought to give away Dunn for a bag of balls... you got your wish. Thats all I can say right now without getting warned.

Well, I hope the team next year without Dunn is able to live up to the lofty standards of this year's team.

bgwilly31
08-11-2008, 03:06 PM
:thumbdown:thumbdownSo we just saved 13 million.

What you want to bet that the reds spend about 15 million less next year.

If i believed the reds would go out and be agressive with the spare money i wouldnt feel so bad about this.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:06 PM
To all those who said we ought to give away Dunn for a bag of balls... you got your wish. Thats all I can say right now without getting warned. EXACTLY, I AM VERY HAPPY WITH THE BAG OF BALLS FOR THAT GUY! IT'S A FAIR TRADE!

bgwilly31
08-11-2008, 03:08 PM
You took the words right out of my mouth. The Reds finally can move forward!!!!

OH HAPPY DAY!!!!!!

oh yeah ohhh happy day.

This day basically gauruntees another 5 yrs of
BUILDING

Yep... Oh happy day indeed. :rolleyes:

captainmorgan07
08-11-2008, 03:10 PM
Even if we let Dunn go and get those two draft picks that's gonna cost us an awful lot of money to sign 3 picks next year. They might not all even sign. Let's not judge this deal until we see the two ptbnl. Just because there ptbnl doesn't mean there absolute junk. This team has needed a change for a long time.

Road Pop
08-11-2008, 03:10 PM
I wonder if they have any decent free agents in mind for the off-season, or they're just gonna re-build again and again... year after year?

IrishDavidKY
08-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Thought it should happen... Just didn't think it would. Who's next?

ED44
08-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Didn't they offer Chad Tracy for Dunn before the deadline? I wonder if he is potentially part of the deal, just has to clear? If so, look for Votto to move to LF.

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Why? The return for letting him walk to free agency would have been better than this.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:12 PM
oh yeah ohhh happy day.

This day basically gauruntees another 5 yrs of

Yep... Oh happy day indeed. :rolleyes: better to have 5 years of rebuilding than seeing a team that cares less if they win or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

justincredible
08-11-2008, 03:12 PM
Terrible. Just terrible.

TC81190
08-11-2008, 03:13 PM
To all those dancing in the street right now that he's gone, your wish has been granted. Guess who gets to play LF now? One of Dickerson, Patterson, or Cabrera.

Having said that, I could go either way about this move. I don't see MUCH of a difference between keeping him and getting the draft picks than I do trading him for Buck. Maybe the scouts were high enough on him to value him over the draft picks, in which case you have to go with their word.

Cigar2
08-11-2008, 03:13 PM
Yea, Bring ON THE PETE ROSE CLONES CAUSE ALL THIS TEAM NEED IS HUSTLE!!!!:thumbdown:

YEAH RIGHT.....:bang:


So long big guy we'll miss you.:cry:

dmoe
08-11-2008, 03:13 PM
wow. i'm starting to rethink my trip to pittsburgh now. i really thought they'd extend him. my heart is broken.

i'm glad he's got a chance to win. i'm sad that opportunity wasn't given to him in a reds uniform.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 03:16 PM
Why? The return for letting him walk to free agency would have been better than this.

How do you know? PTBNL are not always terrible players.

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:18 PM
How do you know? PTBNL are not always terrible players.

How often have they ever been good?

captainmorgan07
08-11-2008, 03:18 PM
wow. i'm starting to rethink my trip to pittsburgh now. i really thought they'd extend him. my heart is broken.

i'm glad he's got a chance to win. i'm sad that opportunity wasn't given to him in a reds uniform.

Im going to the game tommorrow night. I want to see how this team responds. Will they continue with the pack up our tent and go home trend they have been on or will they say hey let's go play and get better for next year.

zakthemack
08-11-2008, 03:19 PM
This is completely ridiculous. Dunn for a minor league pitcher. I'm in shock. An offense that barely scores and we send a 50 home run a year guy.

thorn
08-11-2008, 03:19 PM
To all those dancing in the street right now that he's gone, your wish has been granted. Guess who gets to play LF now? One of Dickerson, Patterson, or Cabrera.

Having said that, I could go either way about this move. I don't see MUCH of a difference between keeping him and getting the draft picks than I do trading him for Buck. Maybe the scouts were high enough on him to value him over the draft picks, in which case you have to go with their word.

Who plays LF right now (2008) is irrelevant, they could put A-Rod there and it would not make a differance in 2008. Wait till the offseason and see what this team does to fill the void.

improbus
08-11-2008, 03:20 PM
How often have they ever been good?

My cousin was a PTBNL and he pitched in the bigs for about 5 years.

thorn
08-11-2008, 03:20 PM
This is completely ridiculous. Dunn for a minor league pitcher. I'm in shock. An offense that barely scores and we send a 50 home run a year guy.

Has the return been confirmed?

NorrisHopper30
08-11-2008, 03:20 PM
Could the Reds resign Dunn in the off-season?

Simms11
08-11-2008, 03:21 PM
The good news is, more PT for Corey Patterson!

:help::all_cohol

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:22 PM
My cousin was a PTBNL and he pitched in the bigs for about 5 years.

Who?

dsmith421
08-11-2008, 03:23 PM
To all those who said we ought to give away Dunn for a bag of balls... you got your wish. Thats all I can say right now without getting warned.

Your Cincinnati Reds:

Hairston
Keppinger
Bruce
Phillips
Votto
Encarnacion
Patterson/Cabrera
Hanigan/Bako
Pitcher

That is absolutely and unequivocally the worst lineup in baseball, with a slight improvement in OF defense.

At least the braindead fans of this franchise, who have moaned and carped incessantly about Dunn and Griffey for years, will finally get what they've longed for.

TC81190
08-11-2008, 03:24 PM
Who plays LF right now (2008) is irrelevant, they could put A-Rod there and it would not make a differance in 2008. Wait till the offseason and see what this team does to fill the void.

I know 08 is a lost cause, but still, filling that production is not going to be a simple task. Now we have two big OF holes to fill instead of one.

Jack Burton
08-11-2008, 03:27 PM
Great move. Now if we can just fire dusty we're on the right path.

NorrisHopper30
08-11-2008, 03:29 PM
I think this is a good move, especially if we can resign Dunn in the off-season. I think the cash added in the trade means the PTBNL will not be 100% scrubs.

I trust Walt Jocketty, he's an above average GM, let's give this deal some time before we all flip on hte man.

BigRedSmokey
08-11-2008, 03:29 PM
Can someone explain to me what Adam Dunn did to Marty? Did he steal his lunch money one day or something? Jesus.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Foolish fans of the incompetent franchise get their wish.

my reaction:
http://www.diamondhoggers.com/2008/08/complete-end-of-era.html

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 03:30 PM
Can someone explain to me what Adam Dunn did to Marty? Did he steal his lunch money one day or something? Jesus.

Marty felt threatened by adam dunn.

pretty simple. Marty wants to be bigger than the Reds and all their players, you know that.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:31 PM
Your Cincinnati Reds:

Hairston
Keppinger
Bruce
Phillips
Votto
Encarnacion
Patterson/Cabrera
Hanigan/Bako
Pitcher

That is absolutely and unequivocally the worst lineup in baseball, with a slight improvement in OF defense.

At least the braindead fans of this franchise, who have moaned and carped incessantly about Dunn and Griffey for years, will finally get what they've longed for.
Hey man, the Reds were the worse team in baseball with Dunn and Jr. What's new? Maybe we weren't brain dead, like you say, afterall!

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:32 PM
I think this is a good move, especially if we can resign Dunn in the off-season.

Although that'd be nifty, it's not happening.

Why would Dunn want to resign with a team that traded him for nothing? Why would he want to go back to a city that didn't appreciate him? Why won't the D'backs try to sign him? And since apparently the Reds opinion of him is low, why would they try?

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 03:33 PM
Jeremy Bonderman, Scott Podsednik, Coco Crisp, Moisés Alou, Jason Schmidt, and David Ortiz. What do these players have in common? All have been players to be named in deals before.

PTBNL are not always garbage, just mostly.

GoReds33
08-11-2008, 03:33 PM
NM, Schmidty beat me.

captainmorgan07
08-11-2008, 03:33 PM
Doesn't it say something but when only one team puts in a claim on Dunn that maybe we overvalue the big guy. What did the sparkling .OPS get us over the years not a darn thing. No trips to the playoffs, no winning seasons, not a darn thing. I liked the big guy as much as anyone but it's time for a change.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:33 PM
[QUOTE=JayBruce32;1715672]Marty felt threatened by adam dunn.

/QUOTE]

OH PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jack Burton
08-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Well, at least we instantly upgrade our defense in LF.

JWP
08-11-2008, 03:38 PM
Your Cincinnati Reds:

Hairston
Keppinger
Bruce
Phillips
Votto
Encarnacion
Patterson/Cabrera
Hanigan/Bako
Pitcher

That is absolutely and unequivocally the worst lineup in baseball, with a slight improvement in OF defense.

At least the braindead fans of this franchise, who have moaned and carped incessantly about Dunn and Griffey for years, will finally get what they've longed for.

Washington's is still worse, but yeah, this lineup is up there.

What an awful, awful, trade. I would have rather taken the draft picks.

TC81190
08-11-2008, 03:39 PM
Doesn't it say something but when only one team puts in a claim on Dunn that maybe we overvalue the big guy. What did the sparkling .OPS get us over the years not a darn thing. No trips to the playoffs, no winning seasons, not a darn thing. I liked the big guy as much as anyone but it's time for a change.
Not his fault. He wasn't on the mound.

Although, I will admit, I am interested to see what this change does to the offense. They seemed to score runs in bunches while Adam was here, which looked nice on paper, but the thing is, they really did come in bunches. Lots of feast or famine with this offense. Not sure if Adam contributed to that...but it will at least be interesting to see what happens from here.

dsmith421
08-11-2008, 03:39 PM
Hey man, the Reds were the worse team in baseball with Dunn and Jr. What's new? Maybe we weren't brain dead, like you say, afterall!

If you'd rather have Corey Patterson in the lineup than Adam Dunn, then you know zilch about the game of baseball. Or you're Dusty Baker.

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:39 PM
Jeremy Bonderman, Scott Podsednik, Coco Crisp, Moisés Alou, Jason Schmidt, and David Ortiz. What do these players have in common? All have been players to be named in deals before.

PTBNL are not always garbage, just mostly.

True. I'm still not holding out any hope.

dsmith421
08-11-2008, 03:40 PM
Washington's is still worse, but yeah, this lineup is up there.


You're probably right.

HeatherC1212
08-11-2008, 03:43 PM
I am totally shocked right now. Wow, that totally came out of the blue! :eek:

Good luck Adam. I hope you get a chance at the post season and I'm very glad you're on a team I enjoy watching (when they don't play the Reds!) and not on one that drives me bonkers, LOL ;)

BurgervilleBuck
08-11-2008, 03:43 PM
An offense that barely scores and we send a 50 home run a year guy.
Dunn has never hit 50 HRs. Check your stats.

If this is turning the corner, I'm for it. There are stats that just won't be replaced but this is important for the franchise to move forward, leaving the Griffey-Dunn era behind.

And, hey, look at the bright side (http://www.ktar.com/sports/?nid=22&sid=930425)...

The Diamondbacks will now have three of the top five strikeout leaders in the National League. Mark Reynolds is second with 147 and Chris Young is third with 122.

I guess they better pull that movie from the HOF Palace of the Fans Theater.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 03:43 PM
Foolish fans of the incompetent franchise get their wish.

my reaction:
http://www.diamondhoggers.com/2008/08/complete-end-of-era.html

Your reaction is a joke. He is just one player on a team looking for a culture change. Go be a Dbacks fan.

757690
08-11-2008, 03:44 PM
:thumbdown:thumbdownSo we just saved 13 million.

What you want to bet that the reds spend about 15 million less next year.

If i believed the reds would go out and be agressive with the spare money i wouldnt feel so bad about this.

I will bet you anything that the Reds payroll is not $15M less than it was this year. In fact, I will bet you that it stays the around same or is increased next year.

TC81190
08-11-2008, 03:45 PM
Foolish fans of the incompetent franchise get their wish.

my reaction:
http://www.diamondhoggers.com/2008/08/complete-end-of-era.html
Dude. Step away from the ledge, it's going to be alright, lol. It's just one player on our team.

SoTxRedsFan
08-11-2008, 03:45 PM
I don't mind this trade as long as the PTBNL aren't total filler. Obviously Dunn wasn't being resigned, and I'd rather get players without having to give them the signing bonuses being demanded by first round picks.

TC81190
08-11-2008, 03:46 PM
I will bet you anything that the Reds payroll is not $15M less than it was this year. In fact, I will bet you that it stays the around same or is increased next year.
I have a feeling it'll be higher. If not from raises paid to Encarnacion, Phillips, and Arroyo, then from FAs and trading for veterans.

Boston Red
08-11-2008, 03:46 PM
Make Chris Burke the PTBNL, stick him at SS and hope that he finally finds that 1st round draft pick form!

OK, that will never happen.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 03:47 PM
All this talk about replacing offense is pretty dumb too. Put a better fundamental team on the field, BOTH offensively and defensively, and 40 HRs could be balanced out.

Fon Duc Tow
08-11-2008, 03:47 PM
I can see trading Dunn for whatever you can get at this point.

But I am sorry to see him go, because unlike many others here, I think the Reds are a worse team without him. He leads the league in HRs! How exactly do the Reds plan to replace that offensive production?

The Reds are officially on watch, as far as I am concerned. They better spend the money this offseason. They better find a way to improve this offseason. Adam Dunn was one of the more productive Reds this season. You usually don't make your team better by trading away the few who actually produce.

If Adam Dunn is the best free agent outfielder this offseason, the Reds better resign him.

A quiet offseason would be REALLY hard to justify for the Reds at this point.

757690
08-11-2008, 03:49 PM
How often have they ever been good?

Ceasar Geronimo was a PTBNL
Francisco Liriano was a PTBNL

there are many PTBNL in mid season deals that turn out to be good players.

In this day, that just means that the players need to get through waivers first. Which means that they are on the 40 man roster, which means they are either major leaguers or solid prospects.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 03:51 PM
If you'd rather have Corey Patterson in the lineup than Adam Dunn, then you know zilch about the game of baseball. Or you're Dusty Baker.
I rather have a player who cares about the game about his team, Adam Dunn isn't that kind of player. So what if he hit 40 plus homers a season and drove in 100 plus runs a season. Did the Reds win with him putting those numbers up,NO! Tampa,Minnesota,and Oakland win without a player like that. Over time,the Reds can be another team like that!

redsbuckeye
08-11-2008, 03:53 PM
Ceasar Geronimo was a PTBNL
Francisco Liriano was a PTBNL

there are many PTBNL in mid season deals that turn out to be good players.

In this day, that just means that the players need to get through waivers first. Which means that they are on the 40 man roster, which means they are either major leaguers or solid prospects.

Yeah I get that, it's possible they turn out fine.

levydl
08-11-2008, 04:04 PM
I rather have a player who cares about the game about his team, Adam Dunn isn't that kind of player. So what if he hit 40 plus homers a season and drove in 100 plus runs a season. Did the Reds win with him putting those numbers up,NO! Tampa,Minnesota,and Oakland win without a player like that. Over time,the Reds can be another team like that!

Interesting logic.

Aaron Harang wins 16 games, has 200 innings, 200 Ks, and a 3.70 ERA. Did the Reds win with him putting up those numbers - NO! Get him out of here too!

757690
08-11-2008, 04:05 PM
Dallas Buck was rumored to be in the D'Backs Tiexiera trade. That's a good sign if he was wanted by other clubs.

However, this deal depends on the PTBNL. No reason to react until those players are known.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-11-2008, 04:11 PM
he recently had tj surgery.. and apparently is almost back to his first round-pre draft form.. which could be good if he continues to improve..

wojo1025
08-11-2008, 04:15 PM
How about an outfield of Bruce in RF, Hariston Jr in CF................

wait for it.....

Barry Bonds in LF?

GoReds33
08-11-2008, 04:18 PM
How about an outfield of Bruce in RF, Hariston Jr in CF................

wait for it.....

Barry Bonds in LF?It's a youth movement. I'd be willing to bet the house that Dickerson is called up by tomorrow.

redsfanmia
08-11-2008, 04:19 PM
I am glad the Reds are moving on and are finally in total rebuild mode. I think Bronson and maybe Phillips are next. Lets hope that getting rid of Dunn and Griffey help change the culture of the clubhouse and Walt brings in higher energy players.

wojo1025
08-11-2008, 04:20 PM
It's a youth movement. I'd be willing to bet the house that Dickerson is called up by tomorrow.

I agree that it's rebuilding time and they are probably going with the younger players...but you still need a reason for your fans to come to the park don't you?

At this point, I would think Bonds would sign for peanuts, especially to play for Baker again. This would give Reds fans a reason to come out to the park...love him or hate him!

Lockdwn11
08-11-2008, 04:21 PM
Foolish fans of the incompetent franchise get their wish.

my reaction:
http://www.diamondhoggers.com/2008/08/complete-end-of-era.html

Who is more foolish the fans you speak of or you the fan who is downing this deal before you even know who the players involved are?
I will wait untill this deal is done before I form an opinion.

OPS
08-11-2008, 04:22 PM
Is anyone surprised that the Dodgers didn't put a waiver claim in to block the D-Backs from potentially getting Dunn? Worst case scenario would have been that they would have been "stuck" with Dunn's salary and would have had to pay him the rest of his salary for the year.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 04:23 PM
There is no way the Dodgers could have done that with the glut of OFs they already have.

GoReds33
08-11-2008, 04:28 PM
There is no way the Dodgers could have done that with the glut of OFs they already have.They wouldn't have to trade for him. If you claim him, it just blocks him from being traded. If I was a GM with my team in contention, I would block any player that could give an advantage to another team, especially in my division. Sure he's not Manny Ramirez, but he's a big bat that can carry them at times.

If the Dodgers claimed him, the Reds would just pull him back off waivers.

Oxilon
08-11-2008, 04:28 PM
Yeah, and not to mention the Dodgers' have been extremely frugal with money this season...demanding money in trades (Manny Ramirez for ex). But I suppose that's what you deserve for throwing $36MM at Andruw Jones and another $30MM at Juan Pierre.

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 04:33 PM
Interesting logic.

Aaron Harang wins 16 games, has 200 innings, 200 Ks, and a 3.70 ERA. Did the Reds win with him putting up those numbers - NO! Get him out of here too!
Harang is a ''team'' player. In my opinion, Dunn isn't.

OPS
08-11-2008, 04:35 PM
They wouldn't have to trade for him. If you claim him, it just blocks him from being traded. If I was a GM with my team in contention, I would block any player that could give an advantage to another team, especially in my division. Sure he's not Manny Ramirez, but he's a big bat that can carry them at times.

If the Dodgers claimed him, the Reds would just pull him back off waivers.

Yea, they could have claimed him and then not worked out a trade for him. If Cincinnati was willing to get nothing back in return, the Dodgers could have been stuck with him. But with comp picks coming after the season for the Reds, there would have been no way that they would have let him walk for nothing.

Lockdwn11
08-11-2008, 04:39 PM
How often have they ever been good?

Have you stoped to think that the PTBNL are PTBNL because they are players that did not or would not pass though waivers? Just a thought.

BEETTLEBUG
08-11-2008, 04:39 PM
Why do you trade Dunn for no names?

Lockdwn11
08-11-2008, 04:39 PM
Why do you trade Dunn for no names?

How do you know they are no names?

levydl
08-11-2008, 04:39 PM
Harang is a ''team'' player. In my opinion, Dunn isn't.

How do you figure that? Oh, I know, you can sense these things, right?

And we still haven't won a thing with Harang, despite his stats and his robust team-playerness. Trade him too!

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 04:46 PM
How do you figure that? Oh, I know, you can sense these things, right?

And we still haven't won a thing with Harang, despite his stats and his robust team-playerness. Trade him too! Have you seen Dunn warm up before games? Have you seen him ''try'' to play Left Field? BTW, OK, trade Harang. I don't care.

levydl
08-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Have you seen Dunn warm up before games? Have you seen him ''try'' to play Left Field? BTW, OK, trade Harang. I don't care.

Hey, just so you realize where your logic leads.

Have you seen Dunn hit 40 HRs, drive in 100, score 100, walk 100 times, and OPS .900? But you're right, probably better to focus on his warm up. That's the real important part of baseball: not what a player actually does, how he warms up before the game starts.

I will readily acknowledge he's not a good defensive LF. Not that there are many good defensive LFs. It's the DH of the NL.

All moot anyway.

BigRedSmokey
08-11-2008, 05:03 PM
Been listening to WLW. I didn't listen after Griffey was traded, so I don't know what happened then, but I just can't get over how *****y these guys are about this trade. You may not like Dunn or Griffey, but at least show a little bit of class. Especially these ads for the radio are really tasteless. No wonder if players don't want to play in Cincinnati.

robmadden1
08-11-2008, 05:03 PM
http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080811/SPT04/308110055&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

Ahhhorsepoo
08-11-2008, 05:06 PM
there is a chance the 2 players are on their 40 man roster.. and just waiting to clear waivers themselves..

Maldez
08-11-2008, 05:10 PM
This was a move that probably had to be made. As much as I enjoyed watching big Adam knock the cover off the ball 40 times a year, he was a one-dimentional player that you couldn't build a winning team around.

I wish Adam all the best and can't wait to see what Walt Jocketty has in mind for the money we'll now have available in 2009 and beyond.

UPRedsFan
08-11-2008, 05:12 PM
Think of the payroll flexibility Walt will have this off season. Dunn's 13 and Griffey's 16. CP will not be in the outfield on opening day 2009. I predict Walt upgrades the defense and moves Votto or EE to LF and tries to steal Sabathia or Sheets from the Brewers like we did with Cordero.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 05:24 PM
I think it would be a mistake to go after Sheets or Sabathia. With the holes on this team I would go after Lowe, and use the money I saved to upgrade at other positions.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70990

FlyerFanatic
08-11-2008, 05:31 PM
Think of the payroll flexibility Walt will have this off season. Dunn's 13 and Griffey's 16. CP will not be in the outfield on opening day 2009. I predict Walt upgrades the defense and moves Votto or EE to LF and tries to steal Sabathia or Sheets from the Brewers like we did with Cordero.

CP better not be in the opening day lineup..i dont know what i'll do :eek:

steig
08-11-2008, 05:41 PM
wow, what a move. At least this will settle the Redszone debate over how the Reds will do without Dunn.

RedsFanIN
08-11-2008, 05:43 PM
Hopefully Owings or Byrnes is part of the deal.... does anyone know the rules for trading a player on the DL?

gilpdawg
08-11-2008, 05:46 PM
Harang is a ''team'' player. In my opinion, Dunn isn't.
I love how people who haven't been in the clubhouse or know these people can have an "opinion" about this. Your "opinion" is based on NOTHING but your own speculation.

Lockdwn11
08-11-2008, 05:52 PM
Hopefully Owings or Byrnes is part of the deal.... does anyone know the rules for trading a player on the DL?

Just a guess but if a player is on the DL he can not be traded but that same played could be a PTBNL and then named after he comes off the DL.

forfreelin04
08-11-2008, 05:55 PM
I'll admit I was a big Dunn detractor on this board for a few years 04-05, but ever since Org posters showed me his true value I actually changed my mind.

I'll miss his propensity to get on base and his homeruns. I will not miss the shoddy play in Left (although he improved over the years) and I will not miss the strikeouts that hurt my feelings! HAHA!

But the biggest thing I will not miss IS THE ENDLESS DEBATES!!! FROM NOW ON REDZONE WILL BE KNOWN AS: REDSZONE POST AD. I welcome the change.

PTI (pti)
08-11-2008, 05:59 PM
<--- Just canceled his trip to Sunday's game.



I'm not driving 8 hours in one day just to see Jolbert Cabrera, Ryan Hanigan, Andy Phillips and Javier Valentin. My goodness, this team is going to be AWFUL.

:(

texasdave
08-11-2008, 06:00 PM
Another move that makes no sense. Doesn't it seem the Reds could have gotten more for Dunn at the deadline being able to talk to every team as opposed to 11 days into August negotiating with strictly one team? I cannot believe that Reds' management changed their opinion of Adam Dunn in the last week and a half. If the Reds absolutely had to get rid of AD why not then? I suppose it is hard to judge any trade without knowing what is coming back the other way, but I'm thinking Jocketty is now 0 for 2 in the last two days. Hope I'm wrong. Hey, Bavasi, get loose.

Lockdwn11
08-11-2008, 06:01 PM
Hey texasdave what did the reds get for Dunn? Name the three players.

GoReds33
08-11-2008, 06:03 PM
<--- Just canceled his trip to Sunday's game.



I'm not driving 8 hours in one day just to see Jolbert Cabrera, Ryan Hanigan, Andy Phillips and Javier Valentin. My goodness, this team is going to be AWFUL.

:(I see your point, but on the contrary, this move gets me excited. I love that the organization has realized that we need to rebuild. Though the team may be awful for the rest of the year, a move like this does nothing but get me excited about the future.

texasdave
08-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Hey texasdave what did the reds get for Dunn? Name the three players.

Curly, Moe and Larry??? Just kidding. :)

dsmith421
08-11-2008, 06:07 PM
Think of the payroll flexibility Walt will have this off season. Dunn's 13 and Griffey's 16. CP will not be in the outfield on opening day 2009. I predict Walt upgrades the defense and moves Votto or EE to LF and tries to steal Sabathia or Sheets from the Brewers like we did with Cordero.

Griffey was never on the books for next season; Dunn's potential salary will be largely eaten by sizable raises for Arroyo, Harang, and Phillips.

I really don't think this gives Jocketty much more flexibility in FA. Sabathia is going to be the jewel of this class and demand high-teens. No chance the Reds get him. And Sheets is a colossal injury risk, he's never stayed healthy enough to merit a big money contract.

My issue with this trade is that they waited to move Dunn until his value reached its nadir. That's not just stupid baseball management, but it's generally bad business.

PTI (pti)
08-11-2008, 06:07 PM
I see your point, but on the contrary, this move gets me excited. I love that the organization has realized that we need to rebuild. Though the team may be awful for the rest of the year, a move like this does nothing but get me excited about the future.


My excitement about the future is more closely related to how well we build the farm system and stay away from big free agent contracts (like Cordero's).


Now, if Jocketty can find a way to dump that ridiculous contract, I may very well invest in season tickets - 4-hour drive or not.

texasdave
08-11-2008, 06:10 PM
Scouting report on Dallas Buck:


8 – Dallas Buck (RHP)

DOB: 11/11/1984
Drafted: 3rd Round, 2006, Oregon State
2008 Club: Visalia Oaks (High A)
Height/Weight: 6-2/195
Bats/Throws: R/R
The Skinny: Buck entered 2006 as one of the better college pitching prospects, but everything went wrong and combined with a drop in velocity, Buck fell hard until the Diamondbacks took a flier on him. He signed and since then has been average and productive, but the lack of velocity prompted Buck to undergo Tommy John surgery in late July.
The Good: Buck is regarded to be a very good pitcher with a decent arsenal. He currently has a filthy slider that is a solid out pitch and he also mixes in a good changeup and curveball. He projects to be very much like Derek Lowe.
The Bad: The concern was where Buck’s old velocity went, which is why he underwent TJ. Hopefully, this will do the trick.
Projection: Average. Buck is tough to evaluate. He’s got solid numbers, but considering what he once was, it’s kind of hard to figure out what he really can be.
What He Can Be: A Back Of The Rotation Starter, right now.
2008 Course Of Action: Buck will likely be continuing his rehab until June or so, after which he’ll being a rehab program to build himself back up again.

Griffey012
08-11-2008, 06:13 PM
Will there even be a Redszone left with no Griffey and now no Dunn? I am gonna miss Dunn in the middle of the lineup for sure, and the rest of the season is probably going to be painful to watch, but I am thrilled of the fact we are finally not kidding ourselves that we are always just 1 or 2 pieces away. I am still anxious to hear about the PTBNL's.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 06:18 PM
What a joke. What a complete joke.

And people wanna know why we're a moribund franchise. I just can't even believe it.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 06:19 PM
Will there even be a Redszone left with no Griffey and now no Dunn? I am gonna miss Dunn in the middle of the lineup for sure, and the rest of the season is probably going to be painful to watch, but I am thrilled of the fact we are finally not kidding ourselves that we are always just 1 or 2 pieces away. I am still anxious to hear about the PTBNL's.

Uh,

are you serious? 1 or 2 piece away? Try 11 or 12 at best. Not trying to be mean here, but how can you even say that? We trade our best offensive weapon, and we're closer to winning? The young pitchers are all largely busts. We traded away an MVP in Hamilton.

The way I see it all we really have is Bruce, maybe Volquez, Phillips and after that, not much else. To go along with that we have a bonehead manager who doesn't fit the personnel at all.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 06:22 PM
What a joke. What a complete joke.

And people wanna know why we're a moribund franchise. I just can't even believe it.

How many times you gonna say it pal?

redsfanmia
08-11-2008, 06:23 PM
Jay you need to stop being a fan then, move on. You should follow sports teams for fun and for stress relief or to escape from your mundane life, it really nothing to get that upset about. The Reds should have moved Dunn 5 years ago, they have needed a total teardown and rebuild since 2002.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-11-2008, 06:24 PM
Uh,

are you serious? 1 or 2 piece away? Try 11 or 12 at best. Not trying to be mean here, but how can you even say that? We trade our best offensive weapon, and we're closer to winning? The young pitchers are all largely busts. We traded away an MVP in Hamilton.

The way I see it all we really have is Bruce, maybe Volquez, Phillips and after that, not much else. To go along with that we have a bonehead manager who doesn't fit the personnel at all.

Uh, not trying to be mean here, but you COMPLETELY misread his quote. He said he's glad that the Reds are finally done with CONVINCING themselves we're a piece or two away. In other words, he's glad the franchise isn't delusional to think if we kept Dunn around and added a John Vander Wal and Alex Gonzalez type of player in the offseason, we're competitive. I'm glad too that we're realizing the entire franchise needs too be fixed.

Va Red Fan
08-11-2008, 06:29 PM
I will miss his bat. You don't replace offense like Dunn, but you look for a more complete player.

markymark69
08-11-2008, 06:32 PM
<--- Just canceled his trip to Sunday's game.



I'm not driving 8 hours in one day just to see Jolbert Cabrera, Ryan Hanigan, Andy Phillips and Javier Valentin. My goodness, this team is going to be AWFUL.

:(

No offense, but they weren't very good before they shipped off Dunn.

UPRedsFan
08-11-2008, 06:33 PM
Isn't there a thread with the free agents for next season? Who's out there?

I still believe this gives Walt payroll flexibility. Arroyo, Harang and Phillips aren't going to eat up 29 million that won't be paid to Griff and Dunn. Jettison Weathers and Ross and Valentin and that's another 6 or 7 million.

Why is Sabathia out of the question?

Carin4Narron
08-11-2008, 06:35 PM
I love that the organization has realized that we need to rebuild. Though the team may be awful for the rest of the year, a move like this does nothing but get me excited about the future. Bingo, my friend!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

LouisvilleCARDS
08-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Isn't there a thread with the free agents for next season? Who's out there?

I still believe this gives Walt payroll flexibility. Arroyo, Harang and Phillips aren't going to eat up 29 million that won't be paid to Griff and Dunn. Jettison Weathers and Ross and Valentin and that's another 6 or 7 million.

Why is Sabathia out of the question?

I'm tired of overpaying for pitchers who will likely implode. I really don't WANT Sabathia. We see where Cordero has gotten us so far, and where Eric Milton got us. At this point, the D-Rays route should be taken, and get the salary low, and build the farm system. Overpay for pitching and hitting coaches and get a guy like Dave Duncan in here to help out.

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 06:42 PM
Isn't there a thread with the free agents for next season? Who's out there?

I still believe this gives Walt payroll flexibility. Arroyo, Harang and Phillips aren't going to eat up 29 million that won't be paid to Griff and Dunn. Jettison Weathers and Ross and Valentin and that's another 6 or 7 million.

Why is Sabathia out of the question?

No doubt he has some flexability. But he also has some pretty big holes.

Fullboat
08-11-2008, 06:43 PM
Dunn's last AB as a Red=SO how fitting. :cool:

Thanks for the memories Adam but I'm a fan who roots for the laundry and well......
you'll be wearing the wrong laundry on Tuesday.:D

With Jr & Dunn gone this marks the end of that Evil,Evil,Evil Shift that these two
had to go against.:thumbup:

Lots of bad baseball left to be played.:D

tsj017
08-11-2008, 07:11 PM
FINALLY.

:jump::jump::jump:

Our long national nightmare is over.

How many teams passed on Dunn again?

(insert giddy laughter here)

I suppose it's just that all those major league GMs don't understand how runs are created.

Wonderful day to be a Reds fan. Glorious.

As for the D-backs, I suspect they may have just lost the division.

They're putting Dunn in right field? My God. I wish I had Arizona games on TV, because that's going to be hilarious. Unless you're a D-backs fan.

There's a good chance we'll look back on late July/early August 2008 as the period when the Reds started to climb out of the pit.

DTCromer
08-11-2008, 07:14 PM
What a joke. What a complete joke.

And people wanna know why we're a moribund franchise. I just can't even believe it.


And people wonder why this franchise has been in complete disrepair forever. We have fans like you who continue to support the idiots at the helm of this franchise. Why do you keep going to games and keep paying those idiots to put this product out on the field.

Fact: Our offense was mediocre WITH Adam Dunn.
Fact: Our offense will be mediocre/awful without Adam Dunn
Fact: We weren't going to the playoffs with Adam Dunn.
Fact: You don't build a team around a guy who hits in the .230's no matter how many HR's he hits.

Adam Dunn is simply a luxury the Reds cannot afford. I can't imagine a GM that has completely built a WS team from the ground up found a much better offer for Dunn than this BEFORE the trade deadline. I don't think WJ is that dumb.

This was more of a "let's move on/salary dump" move more than anything. Anyone who thought we were going to get immediate All-Stars in return simply don't understand the dynamics of the game.

Griffey and Dunn needed to leave this town. Dunn acts like he doesn't want to be here and it was obvious that our ownership didn't want him back either. I applaud this move from the ownership to rebuild once again. Like it or not, we're rebuilding for a year or so. Our pitching, when healthy, will be good enough to still get us a lot of wins. We'll have plenty of money to play with in the offseason and I trust Walt. I don't expect any big name players, but enough offense to win some games.

A core lineup of Phillips/Bruce/Votto is just fine by me.

I'm still excited about the future of this franchise.

Chi-Town Red
08-11-2008, 07:14 PM
Sad day indeed....when he hits his 500th and 600th HR, At least i can say he had 270 in a Reds uni....this team is a long way from contending....9 yrs and counting of taking the peoples money for a terrible product...shameful!

Chi-Town Red
08-11-2008, 07:16 PM
oh and we will be having this same reaction in 5-6 yrs about Jay Bruce....bet on it!!

redhawk61
08-11-2008, 07:18 PM
oh and we will be having this same reaction in 5-6 yrs about Jay Bruce....bet on it!!
I doubt, since Bruce is gonna be a guy who succeeds in all facets of the game, not just one.

OUReds
08-11-2008, 07:31 PM
When he strikes out 140 times next year we'll hear the same tired arguments against Bruce as we did Dunn. Heck, to some it'll probably even be because of Dunn.

Obviously Jocketty looked at the team and said, "welp, we ain't winning next year". I guess it's hard to argue with that given what we have seen since the break.

I hope to goodness that we're really going to rebuild this time, which means Arroyo, Harang, Phillips, and Encarnacion are on the block this winter as well.

improbus
08-11-2008, 07:33 PM
Best Case Scenario: We create a top-notch minor league system and follow the Twins/Athletics model.

Worst Case Scenario (and every Reds fans' greatest fear): We turn into the Royals who lose 100 games a year and have no hope in sight.

Chi-Town Red
08-11-2008, 07:33 PM
Bruce will cost to much money ...wake up people ....nothing is going to change...all our young talent will eventually leave for bigger paydays...that's just the way it is....it has nothing to do with facets of their game..

Kingspoint
08-11-2008, 07:35 PM
All I know is that the "players to be named later" and Dallas Buck need to be better than 2 1st Round picks.

Dallas Buck will be with the REDS in 2011. Buck is a solid relief pitcher which this organization needs.

It's great that they never resigned Dunn, but we won't know if it's a good trade until we find out who these other players are.

redhawk61
08-11-2008, 07:36 PM
Out of all of our players Bruce is gonna be the one with the greatest opportunity to be a career Red, regardless of money. He is going to be our Pujouls, Jeter, Chipper Jones, Berkman, etc.

Kingspoint
08-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Good Luck to Adam Dunn. It's a good move for him and a good move for the REDS (if the players to be named later are better than 2 1st Round picks.) There better at least be one player from their Top-7 prospects list and it needs to be a pitcher or a catcher.

DTCromer
08-11-2008, 07:46 PM
Bruce will cost to much money ...wake up people ....nothing is going to change...all our young talent will eventually leave for bigger paydays...that's just the way it is....it has nothing to do with facets of their game..

Brandon Phillips disagrees.

Blue
08-11-2008, 07:49 PM
Brandon Phillips disagrees.

Yeah, I'm sure he'll be dying to stay here after a few more years like this one. The beat goes on.

Griffey012
08-11-2008, 07:53 PM
Uh, not trying to be mean here, but you COMPLETELY misread his quote. He said he's glad that the Reds are finally done with CONVINCING themselves we're a piece or two away. In other words, he's glad the franchise isn't delusional to think if we kept Dunn around and added a John Vander Wal and Alex Gonzalez type of player in the offseason, we're competitive. I'm glad too that we're realizing the entire franchise needs too be fixed.

Thanks, Louisville. Yeah I meant we are finally realizing we are not 1 or 2 pieces away. JayBruce, we are on the same page we are way far away.

TheBigLebowski
08-11-2008, 07:54 PM
If we end up landing Micah Owings out of this deal I'll be satisfied. I am withholding judgment until we know our entire return.

DTCromer
08-11-2008, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I'm sure he'll be dying to stay here after a few more years like this one. The beat goes on.

If he's getting paid, he won't leave.

Why you would want Adam Dunn here is beyond me.

Kingspoint
08-11-2008, 07:58 PM
Remember that what you say in this thread can come back to haunt you and make you look pretty stupid later. But, overreactions are expected from news like this.

Kingspoint
08-11-2008, 08:02 PM
If you just try to be logical about this, you'd look at it this way...

1. They weren't going to resign Dunn.

2. To trade him they'd have to be offered something worth at least equal to 2 1st Round picks in next year's draft.

So, this means that based upon whatever scenarios have been set up, that the players-to-be-named later are going to be pretty good. Dallas Buck had Tommy John Surgery and has since shown that he came through it OK. He's a Major League prospect, but he's not the best player that the REDS will get in this trade. That is still to be determined.

That's the logic behind the trade versus letting Dunn play out the season and letting him go then.

mound_patrol
08-11-2008, 08:09 PM
Doesn't it say something but when only one team puts in a claim on Dunn that maybe we overvalue the big guy. What did the sparkling .OPS get us over the years not a darn thing. No trips to the playoffs, no winning seasons, not a darn thing. I liked the big guy as much as anyone but it's time for a change.


FINALLY.

:jump::jump::jump:

Our long national nightmare is over.

How many teams passed on Dunn again?

(insert giddy laughter here)

I suppose it's just that all those major league GMs don't understand how runs are created.

Wonderful day to be a Reds fan. Glorious.

As for the D-backs, I suspect they may have just lost the division.

They're putting Dunn in right field? My God. I wish I had Arizona games on TV, because that's going to be hilarious. Unless you're a D-backs fan.

There's a good chance we'll look back on late July/early August 2008 as the period when the Reds started to climb out of the pit.

For you who think no body wanted Dunn lets remember how waiver claims work. The NL teams had the first option in putting in a claim. And teams with the worst record have first dibs. So of all the teams that are in playoff contention only one passed on Dunn and that is the Dodgers who just picked up Manny. The D-backs had the next option and they put the claim in. You wouldn't see a team like the Nationals pick up Dunn because they don't have anything left to play for this season. And it was reported that several other teams put a claim in for Dunner.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-11-2008, 08:10 PM
Remember that what you say in this thread can come back to haunt you and make you look pretty stupid later. But, overreactions are expected from news like this.

I don't think it was a bad deal. I mean, doesn't it say something that Dunn passed through waivers all the way down to the D-Backs, and they were the only team before the deadline even interested in him either.

The MLB draft is always a crap shoot, and you're not even allowed to take a top 15 pick from a team. Heck, you're down on the totem pole too if the team signed other free agents first. That's a big crapshoot as well as these players we traded for. Plus you got signing bonus, possible going back to college, blah, blah, blah to deal with. You're flipping a coin on the draft, getting a couple comp picks in the draft is a complete crapshoot.

I'm sure in two years we'll have the entire hypothetical post list out: "Bu bu bu but .. if we let Dunn go after the year, and then so and so got him, and signed him before their other free agent, and then we would have got this pick, which we could have used signing this guy that was drafted later, who's turned a top 5 prospect! We would have won the world series if we did that!!"

Wait for it. You know in two years it will happen. Just like we *almost* got Tim Lincecum, Derek Jeter, and whoever else out of the draft too. You know certain idiots will make this argument, just you wait.

ThatPitchIsDunn
08-11-2008, 08:19 PM
I'm changing my name to ThatPitchIsBruce.


Gimme Parker and Parra....please? Although the C Trent and PD rumblings make it look more and more likely (it's someone we'll "recognize") that Micah Owings is coming our way. I'm not upset about that either.

Just no Crash Test Dummy. That guy makes too much.

TheBigLebowski
08-11-2008, 08:25 PM
Anyone know how long it will be before the PTBNLs are announced?

TheBigLebowski
08-11-2008, 08:26 PM
I'm changing my name to ThatPitchIsBruce.


Gimme Parker and Parra....please? Although the C Trent and PD rumblings make it look more and more likely (it's someone we'll "recognize") that Micah Owings is coming our way. I'm not upset about that either.

Just no Crash Test Dummy. That guy makes too much.

I would be THRILLED with Owings.

wojo1025
08-11-2008, 08:28 PM
You know, the ORG has a lot of people thinking that Byrnes is one of the PTBNL. This actually makes some sense considering they now have Dunn, Young, CJax (unless they move him back to first) and soon you'll have Justin Upton coming back. It seems Byrnes may be the "odd man out" and willing to move on to Cincy?

Griffey012
08-11-2008, 08:33 PM
If we end up landing Micah Owings out of this deal I'll be satisfied. I am withholding judgment until we know our entire return.

Micah Owings? How about Votto to left 4 of 5 days, Owings at first 4 or 5 days, and Votto to first and Owings SP every fifth day.

George Foster
08-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Doesn't it say something but when only one team puts in a claim on Dunn that maybe we overvalue the big guy. What did the sparkling .OPS get us over the years not a darn thing. No trips to the playoffs, no winning seasons, not a darn thing. I liked the big guy as much as anyone but it's time for a change.

We won absolutely nothing with Dunn, spend the money somewhere else. He's not a winner. I'm sure he wants to win, but if he does not win, it's no big deal. He shows up for work, punches the clocks, works, and then goes home. I never saw any passion, and that's the truth.

Slyder
08-11-2008, 09:01 PM
All I know is that the "players to be named later" and Dallas Buck need to be better than 2 1st Round picks.

Dallas Buck will be with the REDS in 2011. Buck is a solid relief pitcher which this organization needs.

It's great that they never resigned Dunn, but we won't know if it's a good trade until we find out who these other players are.

Please dont try and make me any madder at this deal than I already am. Buck sounds like a reduex of Brandon Claussen so far no reason to downgrade him even further to Danny Graves.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 09:10 PM
When and if Bruce receives the same treatment in being dealt like Dunn and anyone else we were promised we were 'building around' I will go root for a team who builds the right way.

I'll go root for a team that locks up its young talent and I don't just mean the yankees. I mean Brewers, Tampa Bay, even Cleveland

Aces Wild
08-11-2008, 09:12 PM
I have had a theory on the whole"sign or trade Dunn" thing that I think came to fruition the last couple of weeks. It has always been assumed that to get Dunn your going to have to pony up for 4 yr 60 mill at the very least, and more likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 yr 90mill to truly get it done. As others have said in the past, Dunn's body type doesn't tend to age well historically. So basically you go into a contract like that hoping for at least 4 years of Dunn's similar production, but more than likely expecting just 3 years before his body starts deteriorating based on age. In my opinion if the Reds looked at the current team at the ML level (especially given the drivel we've seen since the All-star break), and saw the talent coming down the pipe and just decided more than likely this team is more than 3 years away from being competitive. So why pay a premium for a player who, although very talented, you just don't have the pieces to build around. It is a much wiser financial investment to sign a lesser player to play the same position. I mean why pay Dunn big money if you know that he isn't enough by himself to turn this train wreck around.


I fully expect this team to lose 100 games next season, but in all truthfulness with Dunner here we still would lose 90 games next year......so what's the difference really? Adam is a tremendous ball player, but one player a team does not make. This club is full of crap, and needs to rebuilt from the floor up. Walt has a huge task ahead of him to make this team competitive by even the '10 season.

Chi-Town Red
08-11-2008, 09:18 PM
Im so sick of the "old body theory" ..he is a durable as they come...and a gamer...a grinder...whatever you want to call it!!

BLEEDS
08-11-2008, 09:24 PM
I fully expect this team to lose 100 games next season, but in all truthfulness with Dunner here we still would lose 90 games next year......so what's the difference really?

Well, if you believe that Dunn is a +10 wins versus whomever the Reds can put on the field - and many would share this assesment - then we are BEYOND STUPID as an organization to let him go.

You resign him, and build around him.

Even if he's "only" +5 in win shares, you keep these kinds of guys.

NOW, we need LF, CF, C, and SS upgrades, and have $55 M on next years Payroll.

Jocketty also claims he won't trade any young prospects for talent SO, that leaves FA. If you think we can "upgrade" all of these positions for less than $35-$50M in FA, you live in a fantasy world.

The only other option is trades - but not including young prospects. How in the world is that going to work - trade Freel, and other overpriced vets for others diamonds in the rough? GOOD LUCK!!

This organization has just reached a new low.
I'll wait to see who we got for the PTBNL's, but right now it looks like we just traded our two most productive players, both OF-ers, for two middle relievers.
It makes "THE TRADE" seem like a Miraculous coupe in comparison.
We'll have to wait to see how that ends up - but two relievers for Dunn and Griffey looks like we basically gave them away for nothing at this point.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Aces Wild
08-11-2008, 09:26 PM
Indeed Dunn has been incredibly durable, but we aren't talking about what he has been, but rather what he projects to do over the life of a 4-6 year big money deal. In that case it becomes very possible that Dunn will have future injuries given his body type, and assuming he's still going to be running the outfield.

Listen I love Adam, and sad that we didn't sign him for the next 4 years, but I think I understand why the Reds didn't. We are officially in rebuild mode, and until our young nucleus comes together I doubt you see the Reds spend that kind of money on 1 player.

I can accept that if we are truly going to rebuild instead of reshuffling the vets like we have the past 10 years. If we go out and drop 15 million on 3 washed up vets I am almost to the point of being done with this team. I mean it's time to either shell out the money and be competitive, or rebuild and let the kids play.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-11-2008, 09:29 PM
I wonder if someone claimed Cordero. If so, trade him. We really don't need his salary restrictions right now.

Aces Wild
08-11-2008, 09:33 PM
Bleeds - I don't expect us to replace them........that's why I said we would lose 100 games..lol. I think we will see the same old crap more than likely Jocketty will sign 2 mid level OFs and go with Alex at SS.

I didn't say I like this strategy, but was trying to make since out of it. However, if they are really willing to step up and tell the fans that we are rebuilding and are at least 2 years away............and then play the kids and lose 100 then I could live with it.

I think more than likely though your looking at us running out more retreads and trying to field a "winning" team. Like I said I'm just about ready to give up on this team. Oh I'll still root for them, but I'm not spending another dime until I see them develop a plan........hell any plan.

dougflynn23
08-11-2008, 10:26 PM
How often have they ever been good? :) Brett Butler was pretty good as the PTBNL for Len Barker in the early '80's.

sammonator
08-11-2008, 10:39 PM
Owings, Buck, Whitesell?

Whitesell is not in the lineup tonight for his AAA team.


Votto to LF, Whitesell to 1b????????????? Just a thought.

DTCromer
08-11-2008, 10:40 PM
When and if Bruce receives the same treatment in being dealt like Dunn and anyone else we were promised we were 'building around' I will go root for a team who builds the right way.

I'll go root for a team that locks up its young talent and I don't just mean the yankees. I mean Brewers, Tampa Bay, even Cleveland

Adam Dunn had no chance of "being built around.

No one ever builds around a perenially .240 or .250 guy.

What the Reds said was just PR.

Grande Donkey
08-11-2008, 10:42 PM
If it is Buck, Owings and Whitesell I'd be satisfied. I like Whitesellmore than most seem to though.

BLEEDS
08-11-2008, 10:58 PM
If it's NOT Owings, then we got shafted.

Owings is serviceable, his numbers are good - a .250/.255 BAA - and a reasonable WHIP, under 1.35 for his career. IF he could replicate those numbers in a Reds Uni, that would put him #2 or #3 on our SP list.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

RED VAN HOT
08-11-2008, 11:07 PM
IMO this signifies a move in the right direction. Defensive liabilities are hard to quantify. To me, Dunn's production has not offset his weak defense. There has been too much emphasis on his HR's. I believe AD has the potential to hit .280 with more doubles and RBI if he would go opposite field more often. He is strong enough to hit HRs to any field. I don't believe his HR production would have suffered that much. With those numbers and a gold glove in center, his below average defense could have been tolerated. Hopefully, AZ will push him in that direction.

In general it appears to me that Reds power hitters try to pull too many balls. EE looks terrible on outside pitches. At times, BP does as well. Also, it seems to me that both Bruce and Votto used the whole field much more when they first arrived.

Among Dickerson, Cumberland, Stubbs, Henry, Dorn, and Heisey the Reds have a string of good ML candidates. Platooning is likely. No, there are no 40 HR players, but there is defense, speed, and a little pop. I think that we will find that when the defense gets better, the pitching will suddenly look good.

I read the move not as a salary dump, but as a first step in building a strong defensive team. I would look to move EE also.

mroby85
08-11-2008, 11:20 PM
If it were Owings wouldn't he have been named? he's been in the league for quite awhile, and i wouldn't think he'd be listed as a prospect.

scounts22
08-11-2008, 11:23 PM
I love Adam, he's been my favorite player for years. Initially I was furious with this trade. I was heart-broken; it was Aaron Boone all over again for me. But the more I think about this trade and the team we have now, while Adam can hit the crap out of the ball, we need someone(s) that hits the ball on a much more consistent basis. I'm really excited about the core of young players on this team, and I think there's plenty of talent here to build around.

With that said, the PTBNL better be something special. I do think this trade is probably for the best, but we gave up quite a bit of our offense, and it's hard for me, right NOW, to see the value of gaining a single-A pitcher, even though I know there's potential in the long run.

Also, I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in the off season. I can't imagine with all that's happened recently, that the FO is just going to sit back and see what happens. I think this shows they definitely have a plan, and we all are just going to have to be patient to see how it unfolds.

And, for the love of God, I hope it unfolds into something that can win.

robmadden1
08-11-2008, 11:47 PM
Dunn called into local 12 to say how he felt about the trade. He said he loved Cincinnati but wont loose any sleep over the trade.

pitcher7
08-11-2008, 11:51 PM
No way Schezer(sorry about spelling). If we get Owings included with Buck, that would be enough considering the small offers that Dunn had previously been valued at...

Remember this...Owings is also an amazing hitter...failing at GABP would be no problem, just move him to the outfield...he was a 1st round talent and projected 35-40 hr hitter when drafted.

realistic
08-12-2008, 12:32 AM
bout time

seligstinks
08-12-2008, 12:34 AM
The Reds should have ended this "small market" nonsense, re-signed Dunn for 2 or 3 more years, and raised the payroll considerably next year (we desperately need to spend big bucks also for an ACE starting pitcher). I'm sure the Reds have more money than they're letting on like they have. But, no, the Reds do the opposite. (even though I think Dunn will likely be "washed up" in about 4 years, judging from the players listed as most similar to him)

757690
08-12-2008, 01:39 AM
If it were Owings wouldn't he have been named? he's been in the league for quite awhile, and i wouldn't think he'd be listed as a prospect.


He currently is in the minors. He was sent down around a month ago. That means that he probably was not put on waivers after the deadline and would have to go through waivers before he can be traded.

joshua
08-12-2008, 05:47 AM
The Reds should have ended this "small market" nonsense, re-signed Dunn for 2 or 3 more years, and raised the payroll considerably next year (we desperately need to spend big bucks also for an ACE starting pitcher). I'm sure the Reds have more money than they're letting on like they have. But, no, the Reds do the opposite. (even though I think Dunn will likely be "washed up" in about 4 years, judging from the players listed as most similar to him)

Because keeping Dunn and signing Sabathia would take us to the playoffs next year? Riiiiight.

With a few more years under their belts, Cueto and Volquez are going to be two of the most dominant pitchers in the NL. Votto and Bruce will are going to do nothing but get better and freeing up the kind of money and starting to spend smart while building up our farm system is going to be what gets us another banner in the ballpark...not putting all of our cash into a few baskets and scratching our heads at the all-star break wondering why signing one dude to an outrageous contract isn't getting us wins.

goreds2
08-12-2008, 07:26 AM
Marty B. is going to be on XM175 (Satellite Radio) this morning between 8-9am est.

EDIT: XM175 is saying he will be on 8:40 EST.

Chi-Town Red
08-12-2008, 07:32 AM
Owens...another Rick Ankiel ??

Moosie52
08-12-2008, 07:45 AM
The Reds should have ended this "small market" nonsense, re-signed Dunn for 2 or 3 more years, and raised the payroll considerably next year (we desperately need to spend big bucks also for an ACE starting pitcher). I'm sure the Reds have more money than they're letting on like they have. But, no, the Reds do the opposite. (even though I think Dunn will likely be "washed up" in about 4 years, judging from the players listed as most similar to him)


Look up "small market team" in the dictionary. That is Cincinnati. I think when Junior was traded, Dunn lost his desire to be here. It was all about playing with his buddy.

big boy
08-12-2008, 08:56 AM
The deal comes down to whether Dunn for a couple months and two drafts picks beat Buck and two PTBNLs.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 09:17 AM
the reds were worried they would have to offer dunn arbitration.. and he would accept.. soo then they would be stuck with him another year.. and not get the 2 draft picks.. simple as that..

bounty37h
08-12-2008, 09:54 AM
^ as well as having to then pay siging bonuses for those two picks IF they did get them.

scounts22
08-12-2008, 10:29 AM
I think when Junior was traded, Dunn lost his desire to be here. It was all about playing with his buddy.

Wecome to 7th grade.

Betterread
08-12-2008, 11:11 AM
Disappointing news.
First Hamilton, then Dunn. This club can ill-afford to let this level of talent go. The Reds can't replace them. In one year, the Reds went from a OF rich in talent to an OF with only Jay Bruce and detritus. Unbelievable.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 11:14 AM
hamilton was a loss.. dunn was a wash at best but imo he did more bad than good for this team..

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 12:04 PM
dunn was a wash at best but imo he did more bad than good for this team..

That's a ridiculous statement.

Let me guess, his defense cost us more runs/wins over replacement level than his offense? You can't be serious.
This has been debated over and over and over again, and by MANY people on the ORG with more data and analysis than you and I will ever have, and been proven false.

Just be glad, you're getting what you wanted - no Dunn on our team. The winning should start now, right? Didn't you guarantee it?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BurgervilleBuck
08-12-2008, 12:06 PM
Just sayin'... I've chatted with the Widow Klu a few times about Dunn. While her viewpoint was formed by a different era, she never thought Dunn was a power hitter because he struck out a lot.

I'm wondering what she thinks of this trade.

seligstinks
08-12-2008, 12:06 PM
"Look up "small market team" in the dictionary. That is Cincinnati."

No, No, No. Actually I read somewhere that the Reds actually had an AVERAGE market, therefore they should have an AVERAGE payroll, not a bottom-10 payroll like they've been doing. The Reds had an above-average payroll from 1991-95, and I'm sure the Reds could afford an above-average payroll again. But, no, the greedy owners want to make BIG profits.I've heard that the major league teams are actually making a lot more money than they claim to be.

BurgervilleBuck
08-12-2008, 12:11 PM
Look up "small market team" in the dictionary. That is Cincinnati. I think when Junior was traded, Dunn lost his desire to be here. It was all about playing with his buddy.
Kearns was his buddy, too. Did his talent drop off after The Trade?

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 12:13 PM
"Look up "small market team" in the dictionary. That is Cincinnati."

No, No, No. Actually I read somewhere that the Reds actually had an AVERAGE market, therefore they should have an AVERAGE payroll, not a bottom-10 payroll like they've been doing. The Reds had an above-average payroll from 1991-95, and I'm sure the Reds could afford an above-average payroll again. But, no, the greedy owners want to make BIG profits.I've heard that the major league teams are actually making a lot more money than they claim to be.

It's been Reported that the Reds MADE upwards of a $40M profit last year.

They are NOT small market - they just have a HORRIBLE product on the field that doesn't get people to fill the stands.

Spend money to make money, it can be done. IF they were "committed to winning" as they say they were, they would up the payroll, and then the Reds would sell out games like they used to.

Chicken, meet Egg. Looks like they got a HUGE Egg last year - so, let's kill all the chickens!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 12:17 PM
He cost us more in defense than any other red.. including EE.. soo his "massive offensive production" was negated to being average..

Bleeds.. the reds will win more without him than they did with him..

btw do you read the ORG like it is the bible.. because you honestly make it sound like they are a higher intellect group than anything else in this world..

Of course she didn't consider him a power hitter.. he has to hit the ball more often than not.. power swinger is more like it..

The reds are an average market team, with a below average payroll.. the thing is.. you dont want to tie up 50% of your below average payroll into 2 or 3 players like they have in the past..

BurgervilleBuck
08-12-2008, 12:19 PM
The reds are an average market team, with a below average payroll.. the thing is.. you dont want to tie up 50% of your below average payroll into 2 or 3 players like they have in the past..
Ding!

levydl
08-12-2008, 12:38 PM
Just sayin'... I've chatted with the Widow Klu a few times about Dunn. While her viewpoint was formed by a different era, she never thought Dunn was a power hitter because he struck out a lot.

I'm wondering what she thinks of this trade.

Well good for Mrs. Big Klu.

I guess Reggie Jackson wasn't a power hitter. Or Sammy Sosa. Or Mickey Mantle. Or Mike Schmidt. I guess Junior isn't. Or ARod. Or Manny. Or Thome. Or Ryan Howard.

Dunn's hit the same number of HRs as her husband did in half as many years.

levydl
08-12-2008, 12:42 PM
FINALLY.

:jump::jump::jump:

Our long national nightmare is over.

How many teams passed on Dunn again?

(insert giddy laughter here)

I suppose it's just that all those major league GMs don't understand how runs are created.

Wonderful day to be a Reds fan. Glorious.

As for the D-backs, I suspect they may have just lost the division.

They're putting Dunn in right field? My God. I wish I had Arizona games on TV, because that's going to be hilarious. Unless you're a D-backs fan.

There's a good chance we'll look back on late July/early August 2008 as the period when the Reds started to climb out of the pit.

You obviously don't know how waivers works. The only thing we know is 1 NL team in contention passed on Dunn - the Dodgers. The Diamondbacks have the next worst record in the NL, so they get the first crack at him if they claim him. We'll never know what other teams with better records put in claims for him. But if Arizona is giving up Owings and 2 other prospects for 40 games of Adam Dunn, they think he's a pretty damn good player.

Continue laughing, you only make yourself look uninformed.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 01:02 PM
Well good for Mrs. Big Klu.

I guess Reggie Jackson wasn't a power hitter. Or Sammy Sosa. Or Mickey Mantle. Or Mike Schmidt. I guess Junior isn't. Or ARod. Or Manny. Or Thome. Or Ryan Howard.

Dunn's hit the same number of HRs as her husband did in half as many years.

the argument was that he struck out too much..

Dunn has a k/hr ratio of 4.49

Jackson 4.61
Sosa 3.79
Mantle 3.19
Schmidt 3.44
Griffey 2.74
Arod 2.95
Manny 3.18
Thome 4.05
Howard 3.99

sorry but except jackson, who made his name because of his hitting in "pressure" situations.. and thome (who is often the most forgotten hr threat in ml baseball, but has a career line almost the exact same as dunn, except he has been on a few winning teams...) he cant be put in the same breath as those other hitters..

thome is the best comparison to dunn.. but he was on many winning teams.. had a higher BA most of his career, and wasnt completely abysmal on defense.. mediocre to flashes of good is where his glove was..

Dunn also has 4 times the strikeouts Klu had in half the years.. thats pretty great let me tell you.....

kpresidente
08-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Horsepoo you're making a fool out of yourself.

tsj017
08-12-2008, 01:20 PM
You obviously don't know how waivers works. The only thing we know is 1 NL team in contention passed on Dunn - the Dodgers. The Diamondbacks have the next worst record in the NL, so they get the first crack at him if they claim him. We'll never know what other teams with better records put in claims for him. But if Arizona is giving up Owings and 2 other prospects for 40 games of Adam Dunn, they think he's a pretty damn good player.

Continue laughing, you only make yourself look uninformed.

I do continue laughing, with no concern about looking uninformed.

The softball era is OVER. Maybe the Reds can get back to trying to be a major league team instead of focusing almost exclusively on hitting the ball a long way.

The Reds might stink for the rest of this year, and maybe even next year. But the impressive team structure that gave us the Decade of Woe has been blowed up real good, and I couldn't be happier.


btw do you read the ORG like it is the bible.. because you honestly make it sound like they are a higher intellect group than anything else in this world..

Oh, they are. Just ask them.

All that major league GM talent over there, going to waste . . .

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 01:38 PM
He cost us more in defense than any other red.. including EE.. soo his "massive offensive production" was negated to being average..


Again, a ridiculous statement, backed by not one iota of "proof".



btw do you read the ORG like it is the bible.. because you honestly make it sound like they are a higher intellect group than anything else in this world..


No, I like to read about theories and arguments that have a BASIS IN REALITY, and include thought and analysis and some data to back it up, not some Horse Pooh made up by somebody with no shred of evidence.

ANYBODY who says Dunn's Defense negates his offense to average is ill-informed to say the Least.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 01:47 PM
BLEEDS read this carefully.. i will only say it once again.. I have said it HUNDREDS of times.. DUNNS DEFENSE NEGATES HIS OFFENSE to the point he is an average player for the team.. I didn't say it makes him a complete negative on the team, but rather not worth the money his offense should command..

you also must not watch any games.. remember the little experiment we ran a few weeks ago.. and i stopped it because i realized none of you dunn backers would agree anyone with real legs would get to anything.. he has literally cost the reds more than he has helped them this month.. and he has created what 5 runs? i realize he is in a slump.. but a ML caliber player should be making mistakes over a WHOLE year that cost their team through defensive play 6 runs.. not over a month, and his defense isnt slumping if anything.. according to people here.. it is improving.......

How am i making a fool out of myself for helping others comprehend Ms. Klu meant his k/hr ratio was far too high for her to call dunn a power hitter?

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 01:52 PM
I do continue laughing, with no concern about looking uninformed.

The softball era is OVER. Maybe the Reds can get back to trying to be a major league team instead of focusing almost exclusively on hitting the ball a long way.

The Reds might stink for the rest of this year, and maybe even next year. But the impressive team structure that gave us the Decade of Woe has been blowed up real good, and I couldn't be happier.



Oh, they are. Just ask them.

All that major league GM talent over there, going to waste . . .

Its a shame i remember how many people over there thought ZITO WAS A LOCK to be an NL Cy Young guy back in the old days..

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 01:55 PM
BLEEDS read this carefully.. i will only say it once again.. I have said it HUNDREDS of times.. DUNNS DEFENSE NEGATES HIS OFFENSE to the point he is an average player for the team.. I didn't say it makes him a complete negative on the team, but rather not worth the money his offense should command..

You can keep saying it, it doesn't make it any less untrue.

I can say HUNDREDS OF TIMES that Clouds are Green and that Rain is Dry, and it doesn't make it true.

Win shares and their costs are easy to calculate and correlate to REAL $$$ in MLB. I've pointed you to them HUNDREDS OF TIMES, but you keep ignoring them.

But, I forgot, you have more baseball knowledge than 99% of the people out there. SO, why pay attention to FACTS when you can make up your own opinions and attempt to make them real by repeating them HUNDREDS OF TIMES?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

mroby85
08-12-2008, 01:58 PM
My opinion of Adam Dunn, is he's a fine player to have if you have a payroll like the yankees, but not a guy you can build around on a smaller market team. You can't expectly to win consistently when your best hitter is so inconsistent. He does consistently hit 40, and drive in a 100, but he does that very much so in streaks. where he might win some games for you during that stretch, but will completely disappear for the next 3 weeks. I don't hate Dunn, thats just the way i feel about the situation.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 02:08 PM
that is true.. i do know more about baseball than 99% of the population on earth.. but so does almost everyone on the board..

the other part of what you say though.. like i said.. win shares are calculated because someone says well his home run in the 6th got them the win that game because it scored the winning run.. +1.. but in reality.. wheres the correlation for when he is up with a man on first and second with 1 out.. and he strikes out.. and the next player comes up and hit a a ball to the warning track.. wheres the account for him not advancing the runners.. or getting on to set up that long fly ball as a sac fly..

sorry but that win shares stuff is far too complicated on one hand, but not complicated enough to really reflect what kind of outcome he changed in the game..

just because adam dunn hit the game winning homerun.. doesnt mean he caused them to win.. the tying homerun, or the infield single that prolonged an inning earlier in the game to get to the bullpen, or the great defensive play to keep a guy at first instead of watching it roll past him and let the guy get to third..

look i understand facts are facts.. but in most of these "facts" you keep spewing there is a level of subjectivity.. and to present those as end all be all.. is not fair to yourself or really the argument..

mental change due to situations also isnt affected.. if lets say.. because you will think i am hammering on dunn if i use him in an example..

lets say the reds are down by 1.. in the 7th inning.. bases loaded.. 2 out.. there is a shot to center.. and patterson misplays the ball(gets an error, or just misreads it ala adam dunn a dozen times a year.. and it rolls all the way to the wall, and scores 3 more.. and there is a guy on second..

the mentality of a batter is FAR different in the bottom of the 7th onward when down by 1 run, as opposed to 4 runs.. and if dunn strikeouts out trying to go yard, instead of shortening up his swing and maybe getting a gap shot.. that is a difference made by other factors..

levydl
08-12-2008, 02:34 PM
the argument was that he struck out too much..

Dunn has a k/hr ratio of 4.49

Jackson 4.61
Sosa 3.79
Mantle 3.19
Schmidt 3.44
Griffey 2.74
Arod 2.95
Manny 3.18
Thome 4.05
Howard 3.99

sorry but except jackson, who made his name because of his hitting in "pressure" situations.. and thome (who is often the most forgotten hr threat in ml baseball, but has a career line almost the exact same as dunn, except he has been on a few winning teams...) he cant be put in the same breath as those other hitters..

thome is the best comparison to dunn.. but he was on many winning teams.. had a higher BA most of his career, and wasnt completely abysmal on defense.. mediocre to flashes of good is where his glove was..

Dunn also has 4 times the strikeouts Klu had in half the years.. thats pretty great let me tell you.....

Yeah, the argument was that Dunn strikes out too much and therefore is not a power hitter.

Reggie Jackson has more strikeouts than anyone who has ever played the game of baseball. He also has 563 HRs. If he was on Ernie Banks' teams and never made the WS, he still would be one of the best power hitters of all time. Despite having 300 more Ks than anyone in baseball history.

Sammy Sosa has the second most strikeouts all-time. Schmidt is 7th. Mantle retired as the all-time leader in strikeouts, still is the Yankees all-time leader, and is 15th all-time. Tell me how that means he didn't strike out too much. Howard has the single season record. ARod will be in the top 5 when he retires. They all K(d) at prolific rates. They're all among the best power hitters in the game's history.

And yes, Dunn strikes out much more often than Klu did. He also hits HRs much more often than Klu did.

bmizeSW354
08-12-2008, 02:40 PM
I'm a long time reader - first time poster. As I was looking through the Diamondbacks 40-man roster, I came across a "familiar name", Billy Buckner. PD said it was a familiar name but he wasn't impressed. He didn't say the player was familiar just the name. I haven't seen his name mentioned much. Any thoughts?

Ahhhorsepoo
08-12-2008, 03:54 PM
coutlangus also plays for the sidewinders in AAA...

kpresidente
08-14-2008, 09:12 AM
Bad news. Looks like Owings may not be part of the deal afterall.

http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080813&content_id=3302408&vkey=news_ari&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari

improbus
08-14-2008, 09:29 AM
that is true.. i do know more about baseball than 99% of the population on earth.. but so does almost everyone on the board..

I don't usually agree with you, but I do here. I know that I know more than 99% of the population on the earth.;)

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 09:31 AM
Bad news. Looks like Owings may not be part of the deal afterall.

http://arizona.diamondbacks.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080813&content_id=3302408&vkey=news_ari&fext=.jsp&c_id=ari

sorry but when there is smoke there is ALMOST ALWAYS FIRE.. and there was a TON of smoke on this one.. not saying i know it's a done deal.. but this might be the diamondbacks covering up what they have agreed on..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 10:13 AM
BLEEDS read this carefully.. i will only say it once again.. I have said it HUNDREDS of times.. DUNNS DEFENSE NEGATES HIS OFFENSE to the point he is an average player for the team.. I didn't say it makes him a complete negative on the team, but rather not worth the money his offense should command..

You expect us to believe this without any backing evidence?

dsmith421
08-14-2008, 10:41 AM
You expect us to believe this without any backing evidence?

Yes, he does. It's tiresome and stupid, but it is liable to go on forever.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 10:49 AM
no dsmith we thankfully got rid of him.. and we dont have to watch it.. soo people will talk about all the "great" homeruns he hit.. when they see that on baseball tonight.. and not watch every game..

It's ok that you all think i am stupid.. I do not have a problem with that.. the funny thing is.. baseball GM's agree with me.. while some of them make bad choices.. I find it pretty funny that i am daily told how stupid i am, but reality is.. the truth i say is usually things you dont want to hear.. i am the HARSHEST critic of myself and everything i do.. unlike many people i dont like in my own little world thinking everything i do is perfect..

soo go on thinking I am stupid.. funny thing is.. we WILL win more games without him than we did with him..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 10:52 AM
no dsmith we thankfully got rid of him.. and we dont have to watch it.. soo people will talk about all the "great" homeruns he hit.. when they see that on baseball tonight.. and not watch every game..

It's ok that you all think i am stupid.. I do not have a problem with that.. the funny thing is.. baseball GM's agree with me.. while some of them make bad choices.. I find it pretty funny that i am daily told how stupid i am, but reality is.. the truth i say is usually things you dont want to hear.. i am the HARSHEST critic of myself and everything i do.. unlike many people i dont like in my own little world thinking everything i do is perfect..

soo go on thinking I am stupid.. funny thing is.. we WILL win more games without him than we did with him..

Fluff.

Where's that evidence?

BLEEDS
08-14-2008, 10:55 AM
You expect us to believe this without any backing evidence?

Remarkable isn't it? Even when all the evidence shows that the difference between the WORST and BEST D in LF is only about 20 plays (NOT RUNS) but the difference in Offense between the WORST and BEST in LF is about 30 RUNS, he still goes with the "what my eye sees" Statistics and calls it a draw.

Oh well, he got what he wanted - SMALL ball offense in GABP, almost enough to split with the Bucs.
What we really got was 4 home runs in 2 games, but only 7 runs. Guess it helps to have PEOPLE ON BASE - you know, OBP - when you hit those home runs. This Offense is BEYOND Pathetic at this point.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 10:57 AM
which evidence..? lets see.. take these last 2 months..

just for statistical evidence..

Negatives..
Riccardi went on the book as saying he wasn't very good or worth the money he would command..
Jock traded him meaning we could GET MORE THAN HE WAS WORTH, SINCE HE WASN'T GOING TO RESIGN HIM..

Positive Dunn outlook..
Diamondbacks..

Sorry but that is 2 to 1.. and there are others who are like Riccardi.. THANK GOD Jock didn't listen to you guys.. we would lose for 20 more years..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 10:58 AM
Remarkable isn't it? Even when all the evidence shows that the difference between the WORST and BEST D in LF is only about 20 plays (NOT RUNS) but the difference in Offense between the WORST and BEST in LF is about 30 RUNS, he still goes with the "what my eye sees" Statistics and calls it a draw.

Oh well, he got what he wanted - SMALL ball offense in GABP, almost enough to split with the Bucs.
What we really got was 4 home runs in 2 games, but only 7 runs. Guess it helps to have PEOPLE ON BASE - you know, OBP - when you hit those home runs. This Offense is BEYOND Pathetic at this point.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I guess what Ahhhorsepoo says is true because he said it.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:01 AM
so you admit being the worst LFer in the game you cost your team 20 plays a year, which is far off.. because we have already seen 2 plays these past 2 days dunn wouldnt have gotten to.. ?? but when i threw those out there you said his 200 runs could NEVER be replaced by a guy who created 180 and plays great defense..

please Bleeds collect your thoughts.. you have no idea what you are talking about..

BTW Bleeds.. AGAIN Dunn had 4 men left on base.. I hope you miss that..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:06 AM
which evidence..? lets see.. take these last 2 months..

just for statistical evidence..

Negatives..
Riccardi went on the book as saying he wasn't very good or worth the money he would command..
Jock traded him meaning we could GET MORE THAN HE WAS WORTH, SINCE HE WASN'T GOING TO RESIGN HIM..

Positive Dunn outlook..
Diamondbacks..

Sorry but that is 2 to 1.. and there are others who are like Riccardi.. THANK GOD Jock didn't listen to you guys.. we would lose for 20 more years..

That's your evidence? Really? Who gives a flying **** what Riccardi says.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:11 AM
just sayin.. if someone says it.. you know there are more that think it..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:13 AM
just sayin.. if someone says it.. you know there are more that think it..

That doesn't mean it's true

I suppose when people say the world is flat that it is. Pfft!

OUReds
08-14-2008, 11:14 AM
BTW Bleeds.. AGAIN Dunn had 4 men left on base.. I hope you miss that..


Dunn with the bases loaded this year....

.417 BA, .500 OBP, .917 SLG, 1.417 OPS

I do kinda miss that.....

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:18 AM
in 12 AB's..

with RISP he is .237/.377/.517/.925

and his total men on is even lower than that..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:23 AM
in 12 AB's..

with RISP he is .237/.377/.517/.925

and his total men on is even lower than that..

I'm not seeing a problem here. Those are pretty much his normal numbers.

OUReds
08-14-2008, 11:28 AM
in 12 AB's..

with RISP he is .237/.377/.517/.925

and his total men on is even lower than that..

So his OPS with RISP is about .175 higher then the league average, and higher then any other Reds player's total OPS with more then 50 ABs?

The Horror.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:31 AM
OPS is not the end all be all.. you know that right?

Dunn has averaged being about #15 for OPS since thats all you care about.. and doesn't he SOLELY get paid alot for his offense? while almost everyone ahead of him in that category alone at least plays great defense if not GG claiber..?! yet we should pay him like an elite player.. ok..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:34 AM
OPS is not the end all be all.. you know that right?

You're right, it's not nearly as clear as Ahhhorsepoo's stat "I said it, it must be true" or ISIIMBT. Dunns ISIIMBT was -2,239 clobbles. Chris Dickerson's is 4,239,324,234.

OUReds
08-14-2008, 11:35 AM
What would be the better stat to use?

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:45 AM
there isnt one stat to use per say.. but stats only tell you part of it.. you have to know the context(other stats such as BA with RISP, and such) help clear up the context..

but people only think adam dunn is a decent left fielder because they see he only has 8,9,10 errors.. not the fact that they dont watch games and watch him either not go for a ball, misplay a ball, or give up far too early..

look stats do help you get an understanding.. but just because my gpa is 3.5 in biomedical engineering.. doesn't mean that I actually still remember the coursework.. my stats say that is great.. but if you ask me some of the complex series and sequence calculus stuff i forget that..

you have to look at contexts of stats.. not just the numbers..

BTW dickerson would never get that many clobbles..

he is right around 100.. while dunn is at about 150.. but with a much cheaper price tag on an average market team.. the 100 clobbles is a much better investment..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:50 AM
BTW dickerson would never get that many clobbles..

he is right around 100.. while dunn is at about 150.. but with a much cheaper price tag on an average market team.. the 100 clobbles is a much better investment..

I'm speechless.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 11:53 AM
thats good.. because it was a joke.. apparently something else you haven't learned how to understand.. just like looking at stats..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 11:57 AM
thats good.. because it was a joke.. apparently something else you haven't learned how to understand.. just like looking at stats..

I realized it was a joke gomer.

And you're telling me I don't understand the stats?????

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 12:04 PM
I'm speechless....

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 12:09 PM
I'm speechless....

We can only hope.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-14-2008, 12:13 PM
why? then you wouldn't have the realist point of view on this board? if you don't want that then i suggest you also turn off marty..

just continue listening to positive pattys named george and chris and they will tell you everything is always great in cincinnati, nothing could EVER be better...

I love this town as much as anyone, but i also know you must be the harshest critic of yourself to get anywhere..

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 12:21 PM
why? then you wouldn't have the realist point of view on this board? if you don't want that then i suggest you also turn off marty..

just continue listening to positive pattys named george and chris and they will tell you everything is always great in cincinnati, nothing could EVER be better...

I love this town as much as anyone, but i also know you must be the harshest critic of yourself to get anywhere..

I think you need a refresher on what a realist (http://www.answers.com/topic/philosophical-realism) would really say.

macro
08-14-2008, 12:21 PM
Play nice, folks. The thread is deteriorating.

redsbuckeye
08-14-2008, 12:30 PM
Ok one of my main points is there is a lot of claims being thrown around that guy x or guy y is better for the team but absolutely no evidence to support the claim is being made. This is burden of proof.

I can tell you how many wins a guy is worth (approximately) and the idea gets trashed without actually looking at the formula to come up with the number. This is an ad-hominem attack which is a logical fallacy. If you dispute a stat, show me why it's bad. Just saying that a guy wanted to make it up for the purpose that he thinks a player should look a certain way doesn't cut it (it doesn't work like that anyway).

Trading Dunn might've helped the team. I won't dispute that. But the known return so far doesn't bode well for a team that wants to win. We can't know for certain until all the details are out, but the rumors so far aren't very promising. If Dunn wasn't expected to be affordable to the Reds, I contend that the draft picks, if used properly, would have resulted in more value added than the rumored players acquired in the trade.

BLEEDS
08-14-2008, 03:14 PM
so you admit being the worst LFer in the game you cost your team 20 plays a year, which is far off.. because we have already seen 2 plays these past 2 days dunn wouldnt have gotten to.. ?? but when i threw those out there you said his 200 runs could NEVER be replaced by a guy who created 180 and plays great defense..

please Bleeds collect your thoughts.. you have no idea what you are talking about..

BTW Bleeds.. AGAIN Dunn had 4 men left on base.. I hope you miss that..


Again, you just don't get it, even when it's right in front of your face:

"If you want to compare him to the current gold standard defender in LF (Carl Crawford), Dunn leads 22 runs above position compared to -8.2 for Crawford."

There's your 30 RUNS - not plays, RUNS.

Now, to your DEFENSE claims:

"Now, you're using RZR for your "system" so let's play off that. In 2007, when we equalize for Dunn's 259 BIZ chances, Carl Crawford might have produced 226 BIZ Outs versus Dunn's 214. That's a difference of 12. Then we get to OOZ plays and assuming the same percentage of plays go to that area of the field, we get an advantage to Crawford of about 6 OOZ plays. Now, let's just disregard the fact that these Out-of-Zone plays (OOZ) cannot be expected from your average fielder and work on the assumption that they should be expected.

What we have is a total of 18 plays Carl Crawford made in 2007 that Adam Dunn didn't regardless of ballpark and defensive positioning. And as Crawford produced 3 more Innings than Dunn did in the field, we'll just round that off to 20 plays; or one play every 8 games.

Does that get us to 20 Runs? No. No way in Hades. Does that get us to 15 Runs? No. We're talking about at least 75% BIZ "misses" versus 25% OOZ "misses" and frankly the BIZ misses shouldn't be turning into Doubles or Triples all that often. What we also should be doing is discounting the value of OOZ misses as they're not plays we expect an average fielder to make. They're on the periphery and should be assigned, at best, as marginal Fielding Chances to any defender. When we start to compare Fielders by plays they can't be reasonably expected to make, we run into severe issues on top of other severe issues."

So, 20 PLAYS versus 30 RUNS. NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Also this year Dunn increased his Defense to about average, which didn't take much to shorten the gap between him and Crawford.
On offense, Crawford would have to learn how to take a walk - something he'll NEVER do - and increase his RBI and Runs - which I don't know how he magically can since he already has a much higher BA and speed, etc?!?! What's the deal?!?!

PEACE

-BLEEDS