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SoTxRedsFan
08-11-2008, 03:37 PM
Only name I'm hearing so far is Dallas Buck. I'm here at work and am very limited to what sites I can get one. Anyone got a scouting report?

Redman15
08-11-2008, 04:05 PM
If Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL are all the Reds received for Dunn, the Reds got screwed.:thumbdown

dougdirt
08-11-2008, 04:37 PM
If Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL are all the Reds received for Dunn, the Reds got screwed.:thumbdown

Why? What is a month and a half of Adam Dunn really worth? If Dunn had more time on his contract, then sure.... but he doesn't.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2008, 04:41 PM
Dallas Buck will report to Sarasota according to Hal McCoy.

Redman15
08-11-2008, 04:57 PM
Why? What is a month and a half of Adam Dunn really worth? If Dunn had more time on his contract, then sure.... but he doesn't.

Why not give Dunn his 15 Mill? Who is going to replace his 40+ bombs every year?
Why trade him now instead of before the dead line and get a couple of top notch minor leaguers?

HokieRed
08-11-2008, 04:59 PM
It may have become clear between the trading deadline and now that Dunn was not interested in returning. Agree with Doug, don't see how anybody could expect to get a great deal for a month and a half rental of AD. If WJ gets anything, it's a haul.

Redman15
08-11-2008, 05:04 PM
OK so let him leave for free agency, we get TWO 1ST ROUND PICKS!!!
Is Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL a better deal than 2 1st Rd picks? I don't think so.
If we don't sign Alonso for 8 Million, we could of had (4 ) 1st Rd picks and
15 Million to sign them!!!!!!!!

medford
08-11-2008, 05:08 PM
Why not give Dunn his 15 Mill? Who is going to replace his 40+ bombs every year?
Why trade him now instead of before the dead line and get a couple of top notch minor leaguers?

They haven't been exactly winning with his 40+ bombs the last several seasons. While Dunn is not the whole problem, far from it, he's definently part of it. I would not have minded signing Dunn long term, but depending on the direction the team heads this offseason, I hold out hope that this is a good thing. Perhaps I'm blindly following this ownership/GM group too much, but I pray for a team that plays great defense, pitches lights out, and hits when it matters.

Signing somebody like CC Sabathia this offseason w/ the money spent on Dunn/Griffey this year would go a long way towards locking up this rotation (assuming this is just a blip on Aaron Harang's career, and we see the 'normal' Harangatang next year).

Move Arroyo for pieces, add a solid leadoff hitter, hope that Bruce/Votto develop like we hope, add a right handed bat for the middle of the order and away we go.

Its simple on paper, much tougher in real life, but this team has lost plenty w/ Dunn, perhaps its time to see if they can win w/o him.

Stud4life717
08-11-2008, 05:10 PM
Votto to left field...

Mark Texiera anyone?

SoTxRedsFan
08-11-2008, 05:11 PM
OK so let him leave for free agency, we get TWO 1ST ROUND PICKS!!!
Is Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL a better deal than 2 1st Rd picks? I don't think so.
If we don't sign Alonso for 8 Million, we could of had 4 1st Rd picks and
15 Million to sign them!!!!!!!!

That's way too many exclamation points in one post.

4 1st round picks means we have to pay 4 1st round signing bonuses. That 15 million better go towards Major Leaguers and not draft picks. Hopefully WJ can get 3 above average prospects that are a few years closer to the big leagues than first round picks would be.

medford
08-11-2008, 05:17 PM
OK so let him leave for free agency, we get TWO 1ST ROUND PICKS!!!
Is Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL a better deal than 2 1st Rd picks? I don't think so.
If we don't sign Alonso for 8 Million, we could of had (4 ) 1st Rd picks and
15 Million to sign them!!!!!!!!

Depends on who the 2 PTBNL are. Besides, by going this route, the reds can select (or have agreed already) on 2 players that have played professional baseball for some time period and had a chance to prove themselves vs other professionals, vs selecting picks late in the first round that they hope can handle the professional lifestyle.

No body outside of the Reds organization knows whether there is more value in the 2 draft picks, or the 3 player package at this point. To pretend otherwise is to be obtuse.

757690
08-11-2008, 05:29 PM
OK so let him leave for free agency, we get TWO 1ST ROUND PICKS!!!
Is Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL a better deal than 2 1st Rd picks? I don't think so.
If we don't sign Alonso for 8 Million, we could of had (4 ) 1st Rd picks and
15 Million to sign them!!!!!!!!

Actually, the Reds would get a supplemental pick (picks between the first and second round) and a second round pick. A far cry from two first rounders. And Buck was a 3rd round pick, that was supposed to be a first rounder before his injury.

So basically, the Reds got a pick similar to the second rounder they would have gotten, and two prospects that we can't comment on since we don't know who they are. Plus, the Reds don't have to spend any money on signing these guys, so that saves millions that can be spent elsewhere.

And the Reds will sign Alonso, especially after trading Dunn.

Redman15
08-11-2008, 05:42 PM
Actually, the Reds would get a supplemental pick (picks between the first and second round) and a second round pick. A far cry from two first rounders. And Buck was a 3rd round pick, that was supposed to be a first rounder before his injury.

So basically, the Reds got a pick similar to the second rounder they would have gotten, and two prospects that we can't comment on since we don't know who they are. Plus, the Reds don't have to spend any money on signing these guys, so that saves millions that can be spent elsewhere.

And the Reds will sign Alonso, especially after trading Dunn.

As Cincinnati Reds manager Dusty Baker said: “There is baseball and there is baseball business.”

And the Reds made a business decision today when they traded Adam Dunn to the Arizona Diamondbacks for three minor-league prospects.

Instead of waiting for Dunn to test free agency after this season, the Reds dealt him today.

“This way we at least get more than some unproven draft picks,” said Baker. If another team signed Dunn as a free agent, they would owe the Reds two first-round draft picks.

pitcher7
08-11-2008, 05:59 PM
It defintely depends on who the player to be named are. Dallas Buck is a solid starter who pitched very well for Oregon State with torn ligament in his elbow, a velocity dropping from low 90s to low 80s, yet still led them to College World Series. Now that he had surgery, his velocity and movement should be coming back, and he had a wicked sinker/slider duo.

Also...Buck was going to go in the 1st round had he not been injured. So, debating whether our haul would be comparable to having 2 1st round picks defintely depnds on the PTBNL.

Benihana
08-11-2008, 06:41 PM
There are five players that the Diamondbacks have whom I'd be interested in.

RHP Max Scherzer
RHP Jarrod Parker
OF Gerrardo Parra
RHP Micah Owings
RHP Billy Buckner

in that order. If at least one of those guys isn't one of the PTBNL, it's a horrible trade. If we could get two guys off of that list in addition to Buck (and admittedly the first two are highly unlikely) than I would be content with the trade. We'll see...

BuckeyeRedleg
08-11-2008, 06:54 PM
The Reds wouldn't want two more first round picks, because then they would have to pay them.

This organization is smelly.

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 07:22 PM
maybe somehow we got Justin Upton. a man can dream

Ghosts of 1990
08-11-2008, 07:23 PM
The Reds wouldn't want two more first round picks, because then they would have to pay them.

This organization is smelly.

agreed. Stupid stupid move by the Reds.

redsfanmia
08-11-2008, 07:36 PM
agreed. Stupid stupid move by the Reds.

Come on dude move on for crying out loud.

OnBaseMachine
08-11-2008, 10:43 PM
A closer look at Dallas Buck
Prospect from Dunn deal likely headed to Class A Sarasota
By Kevin T. Czerwinski / MLB.com

Dallas Buck is a perfect example of how college coaches abuse their charges in order to win. He helped Oregon State to a College World Series crown in 2006 as head coach Pat Casey kept sending him out to the mound despite knowing he was hurt.

But Buck is a gutsy kid. The right-hander kept taking the ball and never complained. Now, the folks in Cincinnati will benefit from that "win at all costs" attitude. That's because the Reds acquired Buck on Monday along with a pair of players to be named later in a deal that sent slugger Adam Dunn to Arizona.

Buck, whom the Diamondbacks selected in the third round of the 2006 First-Year Player Draft, won his collegiate title, but ultimately it proved to be a setback in his professional career. He had been considered by many to be a potential first-rounder, but when the injury became common knowledge, he slid to the third round.

Buck, known for his ability to tolerate pain and his gritty performances, eventually succumbed to the right elbow injury he suffered at OSU, undergoing Tommy John elbow reconstruction surgery last August. He was 4-4 with a 3.41 ERA in 14 starts for Class A Visalia at the time, after having sat out the 2006 season in hopes that his elbow would heal.

Buck, who was 28-10 in three seasons at Oregon State, returned to action this June. He appeared in nine games (eight starts) for South Bend of the Class A Midwest League before getting bumped back up to Visalia. He made his lone start for the Oaks last week and lost despite not allowing an earned run in five innings to San Jose. Overall, he is 1-5 with a 3.55 ERA in 50 2/3 innings this season.

How long it takes Buck to regain the low- to mid-90s speed he consistently had on his fastball prior to the injury remains to be seen. He was still throwing in the high 80s last summer while hurt. Buck has a nice slider and changeup that didn't appear to be too affected by the injury. He will likely head to Sarasota of the Class A Florida State League.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080811&content_id=3292401&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Mario-Rijo
08-11-2008, 11:42 PM
FWIW Daugherty let slip it will be 3 pitchers and everyone is reporting that one of the names is a recognizable name which is Micah Owings IMHO.

So It's likely Owings/Buck and 1 of several different names. Here's the list which I have already put on the ORG Dunn post.

Esmerling Vasquez RHSP
Jailen Peguero RHRP
Juan Gutierrez RHRP
Emiliano Fruto RHRP

I put that in order of interest to me although admittedly Peguero is older than Vasquez he looks to have a better game at least currently. Although Vasquez is a starter and Peguero is a reliever. An interesting note to these guys is that Vasquez and Peguero keep the ball in the park much better than does the other 2 and that's likely the key to the deal. So I think it's between those 2 a 24 year old starter or a 27 year old reliever. My money is on Vasquez even though he doesn't seem as dominant as Peguero.

sammonator
08-11-2008, 11:47 PM
Owings, Buck, Whitesell?

Votto to LF, Whitesell to 1b? Whitesell is not in the lineup tonight for the AAA Dbacks.

flyer85
08-11-2008, 11:48 PM
the only position player I like is D' Antona

Superdude
08-11-2008, 11:48 PM
Why are we not naming the other prospects if they already know who they are?

Mario-Rijo
08-11-2008, 11:54 PM
Owings, Buck, Whitesell?

Votto to LF, Whitesell to 1b? Whitesell is not in the lineup tonight for the AAA Dbacks.

Ahh, really. It turns out that I was unintentionally mislead about the fact that we dealt him for 3 pitchers. It was an assumption on another posters part that Daugherty meant exactly what he said, Fuggetabouit!

Whitesell intrigues me his #'s are awesome especially this season. But I just can't figure out how a guy like that get's waived by the Nats or anyone for that matter. Is he the Tonys Gutierrez or Chris Dickerson of their organization? Can do well in the minors but seemingly doesn't have the pure talent to make it in the bigs? The guy is 26 for the love of pete (not that pete, I no longer love that pete).

flyer85
08-11-2008, 11:58 PM
you have to also realize that Tuscon and the PCL inflate offensive production.

Mario-Rijo
08-11-2008, 11:59 PM
the only position player I like is D' Antona

Why is that he and Whitesell compare pretty favorably to one another except Whitesell seems to have displayed more power and discipline and D'Antona a better BA over the years? And they both are the same age and both had their roughest offensive seasons going in to AA.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 12:03 AM
Why is that he and Whitesell compare pretty favorably to one another except Whitesell seems to have displayed more power and discipline and D'Antona a better BA over the years? And they both are the same age and both had their roughest offensive seasons going in to AA.Whitesell is another LH hitter tied to 1b. D' Antona is a RH hitter with good power and has some positional flexibility.

Mario-Rijo
08-12-2008, 12:13 AM
Whitesell is another LH hitter tied to 1b. D' Antona is a RH hitter with good power and has some positional flexibility.

I don't mind the LH-ness now with Dunn and Jr gone only Votto and Bruce are LH. That said D' Antona we know won't be coming back in this deal, so I think it's Whitesell or Brito who just made the jump to AAA recently. Assuming of course we even get an offensive player back. I suppose it could be Chad Tracy but I don't know how I feel about that he seems to have too many injury issues the last couple of seasons.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 02:20 AM
Hopefully Micah Owings is indeed one of the two PTBNL. I like his size and stuff. He pitched well as a rookie for the DBacks last season and I think he can return to being that kind of pitcher. He'll never be an ace but he's got the talent to be a 200 inning 4.00 ERA type of pitcher IMO. In addition to his pitching his bat is also a plus considering he's a pitcher. As for the second PTBNL, if it's a position guy Whitesell is my choice over Castillo and Brito. If it's a pitcher then Jailen Peguero or Esmerling Vasquez would be my choice. I was doing some reading up on both...apparently Peguero throws in the low 90's and has a swing-and-miss slider which is considered an above average pitch. He's already 27 but may turn into a decent reliever. Vasquez is 24 years old and is having an awful season in AAA but last year he posted a 2.99 ERA and a 60 BB/151 K ratio in 165.1 innings in AA while allowing only 125 hits. He's got a fastball that touches 95 mph and his changeup is rated the best in the Arizona system according to BA.

camisadelgolf
08-12-2008, 02:41 AM
I love Micah Owings. He has great stuff. Unfortunately, when he's wild, he's high in the zone or very inside (he hits a lot of batters). He really gets hammered sometimes. The Reds could use some right-handed power off the bench, though.

NJReds
08-12-2008, 09:02 AM
The Reds could use some right-handed power off the bench, though.

Off the bench? He'd probably be our starting LF on days he isn't pitching; batting third.

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 09:17 AM
Is Dallas Buck and 2 PTBNL a better deal than 2 1st Rd picks? I don't think so.


How can anyone say that when you don't know the names of the PTBNL?????

And,if Dunn is signed by a team in the bottom half of the standings, it's a second round pick and one after the first round like the Cordero signing.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 09:17 AM
I really doubt it's Owings, guys. AZ will want him for September, at least. I'll be very pleased if it is, but my gut tells me we're looking at Vasquez/Peguero....

nate
08-12-2008, 09:19 AM
I really doubt it's Owings, guys. AZ will want him for September, at least.

That could be why the two players are to be named.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 09:32 AM
That could be why the two players are to be named.

A team would never agree to accept a player in trade and then let the trading partner use that player for a while.

camisadelgolf
08-12-2008, 10:06 AM
A team would never agree to accept a player in trade and then let the trading partner use that player for a while.

It would be creative, though. If that's what's happening, I'd be impressed.

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 10:12 AM
A team would never agree to accept a player in trade and then let the trading partner use that player for a while.

Never?

In 1995,the Reds traded for Wells from Detroit. Part of the pay off was Mark Lewis who went to the Tigers after the season was over and after Mark Lewis helped the Reds defeat the Dodgers in the first round of the playoffs while hitting a grand slam.

It was common knowledge at the time hat Lewis was going to the Tigers after the season. And he did.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 10:19 AM
Never?

In 1995,the Reds traded for Wells from Detroit. Part of the pay off was Mark Lewis who went to the Tigers after the season was over and after Mark Lewis helped the Reds defeat the Dodgers in the first round of the playoffs while hitting a grand slam.

It was common knowledge at the time hat Lewis was going to the Tigers after the season. And he did.

I did not know that.... thanks.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 10:43 AM
I take it the agreement has not yet been made.

Homer Bailey
08-12-2008, 05:22 PM
I thought that PTBNL's were usually minor leaguers that technically couldn't be traded yet because they were recently drafted? I could be wrong. Actually, I'll be anything I'm wrong.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:38 PM
waiting for the players to pass through waivers, if they do then they will name them.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 05:46 PM
I thought that PTBNL's were usually minor leaguers that technically couldn't be traded yet because they were recently drafted? I could be wrong. Actually, I'll be anything I'm wrong.

That's one reason some players are designated as PTBNL, but there's also reasons like needing to pass through waivers now and also waiting for medical clearance.

BoilerBC11
08-12-2008, 08:03 PM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker. From what I've heard, he has a one year no trade clause in his contract, and once his year is up (August 15), he will make the switch.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 08:11 PM
Parker is one of their top prospects. If it is him, the other player is certainly not Owings.

If it was somehow Parker and Owings, I would call it a robbery of epic proportions.

Superdude
08-12-2008, 08:35 PM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker. From what I've heard, he has a one year no trade clause in his contract, and once his year is up (August 15), he will make the switch.

I don't believe you, but that would be absolutely glorious.

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 08:39 PM
Parker is one of their top prospects. If it is him, the other player is certainly not Owings.

If it was somehow Parker and Owings, I would call it a robbery of epic proportions.
I would call it robbery if it was Parker, the switch hitting catcher(can't remember the name right now), and Buck

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't believe you, but that would be absolutely glorious.
Just think what a Friday that would be.

Today the Reds announce the acquisition of Jarrod Parker from the Arizona Diamondbacks as one of the players to be named later in the Adam Dunn deal.

Also the Reds announce the signing of first round draft pick Yonder Alonso and 16 year old Venezuelan OF Yorman Rodriquez.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 08:44 PM
Just think what a Friday that would be.

Today the Reds announce the acquisition of Jarrod Parker from the Arizona Diamondbacks as one of the players to be named later in the Adam Dunn deal.

Also the Reds announce the signing of first round draft pick Yonder Alonso.Don't forget Yorman Rodriguez. He turns 16 Friday.

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 08:46 PM
Don't forget Yorman Rodriguez. He turns 16 Friday.
fixed...sounds even better:beerme:

Superdude
08-12-2008, 08:48 PM
Today the Reds announce the acquisition of Jarrod Parker from the Arizona Diamondbacks as one of the players to be named later in the Adam Dunn deal. Also the Reds announce the signing of first round draft pick Yonder Alonso and 16 year old Venezuelan OF Yorman Rodriquez.

That would be better than Christmas, and not the lame extended family Christmas either.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 08:52 PM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker

Highly doubtful. It's been widely reported that both players are on the 40-man roster, and Parker isn't.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 08:53 PM
What is this inside sources connection to the Reds?

somethingtony
08-12-2008, 08:59 PM
the guy did write this over a year ago....... sooooo ummmm

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1329273#post1329273

Also Parker sign his contract Aug 15th 2007

BoilerBC11 care to expand at all????

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 09:42 PM
http://tucson.sidewinders.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=t549&t=g_box&gid=2008_08_12_tucaaa_cspaaa_1You can throw the Whitesell not playing theory out the window. He is starting at 1B tonight.

somethingtony
08-12-2008, 09:45 PM
Nevermind this post................

jesusfan
08-12-2008, 10:09 PM
Dunn is #32 btw... check gameday...

NorrisHopper30
08-12-2008, 10:12 PM
Dunn struck out swinging in his first at bat.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 10:13 PM
They will get used to that.

jesusfan
08-12-2008, 10:16 PM
So... how good is your source on Parker Boiler??

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 10:29 PM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker. From what I've heard, he has a one year no trade clause in his contract, and once his year is up (August 15), he will make the switch.

It wouldn't be a no trade clause in his contract, it's a provision for all of ML baseball that a player cannot be traded within one year of signing their first contract.

RedEye
08-12-2008, 10:31 PM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker. From what I've heard, he has a one year no trade clause in his contract, and once his year is up (August 15), he will make the switch.

If that's the case, I will understand how the D-Backs outbid the other teams who claimed Dunn. I will also radically re-evaluate my analysis of the deal. If WJ gets a premium pitching prospect for 2 months of Dunn, I will be shocked... but overjoyed.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 10:43 PM
If that's the case, I will understand how the D-Backs outbid the other teams who claimed Dunn. I will also radically re-evaluate my analysis of the deal. If WJ gets a premium pitching prospect for 2 months of Dunn, I will be shocked... but overjoyed.

There is no bidding process involved past July 31. The D'Backs were the claimant with the worst record. The Reds' choices were to either work out a trade with Arizona, withdraw him from the wire, or allow the D'Backs to take him with no compensation.

I would be absolutely floored if Parker was in the deal. It would be a massive steal if that were the case.

RedEye
08-12-2008, 10:48 PM
There is no bidding process involved past July 31. The D'Backs were the claimant with the worst record. The Reds' choices were to either work out a trade with Arizona, withdraw him from the wire, or allow the D'Backs to take him with no compensation.

I would be absolutely floored if Parker was in the deal. It would be a massive steal if that were the case.

Oh, okay. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

In any case, we all seem to be on the same page about Parker. If this happens, WJ suddenly looks like a genius.

BoilerBC11
08-12-2008, 10:54 PM
For sake of the parties involved, and risk of embarrassing myself if the deal doesn't go through, I will just say that I have a source that is friends of the Parker family, and Jarrod's family seems to think that Jarrod is heading to the Reds.

Key work there is "thinks."

Seems to me that Parker would already know he was moving if he was heading our way, and it seems that a haul of Buck/Parker/Owings would be pretty sick.

But then again, why would they think this if it wasn't the case?

Just so its clear, I am not friends with Jarrod, just an acquaintance with a lot of mutual friends.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Good deal. God knows we all hope you are right.

NorrisHopper30
08-12-2008, 10:58 PM
For sake of the parties involved, and risk of embarrassing myself if the deal doesn't go through, I will just say that I have a source that is friends of the Parker family, and Jarrod's family seems to think that Jarrod is heading to the Reds.

Key work there is "thinks."

Seems to me that Parker would already know he was moving if he was heading our way, and it seems that a haul of Buck/Parker/Owings would be pretty sick.

But then again, why would they think this if it wasn't the case?

Just so its clear, I am not friends with Jarrod, just an acquaintance with a lot of mutual friends.

Well, i'm sorry to hear you are not friends with him, but if we do get Parker I will be your friend.

Get back to me, buddy.

SMcGavin
08-12-2008, 10:58 PM
Thanks for clarifying that. I still don't believe it, not because you are unreliable but because that would be a really good trade for the Reds. But I appreciate you giving the information.

CTA513
08-12-2008, 11:03 PM
I went to milb.com and did a player search for players with the last name Parker.
When I got to Jarrod Parker it didn't list a team for him.

dougdirt
08-12-2008, 11:04 PM
I went to milb.com and did a player search on parker and it came up with a list of people with the last name parker. When I got to Jarrod Parker it didn't list a team for him.

That just happens from time to time for guys. Don't read anything into it.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 11:04 PM
I went to milb.com and did a player search for players with the last name Parker.
When I got to Jarrod Parker it didn't list a team for him.
He is still listed on his teams roster though.

LoganBuck
08-12-2008, 11:09 PM
For sake of the parties involved, and risk of embarrassing myself if the deal doesn't go through, I will just say that I have a source that is friends of the Parker family, and Jarrod's family seems to think that Jarrod is heading to the Reds.

Key work there is "thinks."

Seems to me that Parker would already know he was moving if he was heading our way, and it seems that a haul of Buck/Parker/Owings would be pretty sick.

But then again, why would they think this if it wasn't the case?

Just so its clear, I am not friends with Jarrod, just an acquaintance with a lot of mutual friends.

Thats cool. Lets hope you are right.

George Anderson
08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
I saw Jarrod Parker first hand last year while umpiring one of his HS games. He throws in the high 90's and has an amazing curve ball. He is not at all a very big kid but is easily the most intimidating pitcher I have seen in my 11 years umpiring. In fact I would rank him higher than three recent MLB pitchers I have seen Tommy Hunter of Texas, Wes Whisler of the Chisox, and Clayton Richard of the Chisox.

JaxRed
08-12-2008, 11:18 PM
Parker did pitch yesterday after the trade, though......

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 11:24 PM
Parker did pitch yesterday after the trade, though......That doesn't really mean much since all of the other players mentioned have continued playing so far.

BoilerBC11
08-12-2008, 11:54 PM
Thanks for clarifying that. I still don't believe it, not because you are unreliable but because that would be a really good trade for the Reds. But I appreciate you giving the information.

Not gonna lie, I don't know if believe it either...

I believe my source, but the deal is pretty lopsided if you ask me.

But then again, the deal isn't really for a 2 month rental, its for a two month rental + 2 high draft picks...

Superdude
08-12-2008, 11:56 PM
You should probably do some investigating Boiler. Maybe some under cover stuff because if I get my hopes up for Parker, and we get some 28 year old reliever, I'll be pretty much crushed for a few days.

Screwball
08-12-2008, 11:57 PM
But then again, the deal isn't really for a 2 month rental, its for a two month rental + 2 high draft picks...

Good point.

jesusfan
08-13-2008, 12:03 AM
Yeah... but how do you know that Dunn wouldn't accept arbitration if the D-Backs even offered, which they would have to do in order to get the draft picks...

2 things would have to happen in order for the D-backs to get the 2 picks...

1. D-backs offer Dunn arbitration
2. Dunn decline arbitration and sign with another team.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-13-2008, 12:39 AM
There would be no reason for Dunn to accept arbitration, unless he and his agent are both very stupid.

Oxilon
08-13-2008, 12:51 AM
Yeah... but how do you know that Dunn wouldn't accept arbitration if the D-Backs even offered, which they would have to do in order to get the draft picks...

2 things would have to happen in order for the D-backs to get the 2 picks...

1. D-backs offer Dunn arbitration
2. Dunn decline arbitration and sign with another team.

Players never accept a team's first offer in arbitration, or else arbitration wouldn't be the b*tch that it is between teams and their players. Arizona will lowball Dunn and Dunn will than counteract with an offer for the moon. If Arizona really would like to resign Dunn, they'd let the arbitrator due his job and find some meeting ground in between. However, most likely Dunn will reject Arizona's low offer and he'll opt out and become a free agent, thus giving Arizona the comp picks when he does finally sign.

757690
08-13-2008, 01:11 AM
Players never accept a team's first offer in arbitration, or else arbitration wouldn't be the b*tch that it is between teams and their players. Arizona will lowball Dunn and Dunn will than counteract with an offer for the moon. If Arizona really would like to resign Dunn, they'd let the arbitrator due his job and find some meeting ground in between. However, most likely Dunn will reject Arizona's low offer and he'll opt out and become a free agent, thus giving Arizona the comp picks when he does finally sign.

With Free Agent Arbitration, the team can offer it or not. If they offer it, and the player accepts it, then they must go to arbitration and both sides must accept the arbiters ruling. The team submits a figure and the player submits a figure. The arbiter must pick one of the two figures to be the players salary for one year, and has no other options. Once the player agrees to arbitration, neither side can opt out.

This basically means that Dunn would never accept arbitration, especially if he thinks he can get over $100M in free agency.

somethingtony
08-14-2008, 11:01 AM
Does anyone else think this Parker thing may have something to it. With the local guys being all over the place with their info I'm starting to second guess the other info they have released. I guess tomorrow we will know one way or another. Boiler anything new on your side?

lollipopcurve
08-14-2008, 11:10 AM
Does anyone else think this Parker thing may have something to it.

Slightly, ever so slightly. My understanding was that we'd know yesterday PM about the identity of any players clearing waivers. Since the 3rd player's identity was not confirmed yesterday, it makes me wonder if he truly had to pass through waivers first. Exceptions would be injured players, like Owings, or players who hadn't been under Dbacks' control for a full year, like Parker. But I think the most likely explanation is that the player (Castillo?) was claimed and pulled back... thus, the story about Jimbo claiming someone (it just wasn't Owings).

SoTxRedsFan
08-14-2008, 07:52 PM
Well, none of the big pitchers we were hoping for. BUT, I'm pretty darned happy with the haul that WJ got for 2 months of the Donkey. 2 Major League ready players and a pitcher with a tone of upside. Not too bad.

757690
08-15-2008, 12:45 AM
I am amazed that any Reds fans could not be happy with this haul. I

n return Ior a player whose only value to the Reds was the two draft picks somewhere in between #30-75 next year, the Reds got a possible #3 or 4 starter who might be the best hitting pitcher in the majors, the left handed side of a catching platoon for next year, and a solid pitching prospect.

Granted Owings and Buck are injured right now, but they won't be when the Reds need them. They may not recover, but these days, the odds are in their favor, and in Owings case, if he can't pitch again, he can always be moved to left and a spot in the middle of the lineup. He alone is worth more than those two picks.

I think people are underestimating Castillo. He is not a utility player, he is a strong defensive catcher, who can also play the infield if needed. People are re-acting like he is a future Rafeal Landestoy, when he really is like a future Molina, who can also fill in at SS in a pinch. Imagine an Eli Marrero who can actually catch.

If Buck turns out to be productive at the major league level at all, that is just icing.

Blue
08-15-2008, 01:59 AM
I am amazed that any Reds fans could not be happy with this haul. I

n return Ior a player whose only value to the Reds was the two draft picks somewhere in between #30-75 next year, the Reds got a possible #3 or 4 starter who might be the best hitting pitcher in the majors, the left handed side of a catching platoon for next year, and a solid pitching prospect.

Granted Owings and Buck are injured right now, but they won't be when the Reds need them. They may not recover, but these days, the odds are in their favor, and in Owings case, if he can't pitch again, he can always be moved to left and a spot in the middle of the lineup. He alone is worth more than those two picks.

I think people are underestimating Castillo. He is not a utility player, he is a strong defensive catcher, who can also play the infield if needed. People are re-acting like he is a future Rafeal Landestoy, when he really is like a future Molina, who can also fill in at SS in a pinch. Imagine an Eli Marrero who can actually catch.

If Buck turns out to be productive at the major league level at all, that is just icing.

The Reds got:

a 24 year old A ball pitcher coming off an arm injury
an MLB pitcher with a 5.00 ERA, who can hit
a 24 year old AAA catcher with an OPS under .700

that stinks. The End.

camisadelgolf
08-15-2008, 02:05 AM
It's a package that makes sense for both teams. Overall, I'm satisfied. Buck, Castillo, and Owings isn't bad at all when you consider everything, especially the money that would have been spent on Dunn and the draft picks (which might not even be that high, depending on who signs him).

GoReds33
08-15-2008, 02:13 AM
Last season Micah managed eight wins, and a 4.3 ERA. I'm not about to give up on this young man.

Castillo is a low risk player, because even if he can't hit, his defense is good enough to still make him a viable backup.

Dallas Buck was an All American in college. He has very good potential if his recovery goes as expected. Many believe he will regain his velocity on his fastball, which would get his K numbers back up. They have been low, but I would suspect that it was caused by his lack of velocity. Still he's a high risk, high reward type.

All three of these players have the potential to be solid MLB players. I suspect that without a change of the roster, Castillo will be in competition till the last minute to make the team next year. I don't know if he will though. Still, all three are good investments, and will become solid MLB regulars.

camisadelgolf
08-15-2008, 02:16 AM
The Reds got:

a 24 year old A ball pitcher coming off an arm injury
an MLB pitcher with a 5.00 ERA, who can hit
a 24 year old AAA catcher with an OPS under .700

that stinks. The End.

You can word it that way, or you can word it like this:

a 23-year-old high-A baller (because that's what Dallas Buck actually is, thank you very much) who at one time was projected to be a first-round pick with very good control and a low whip
a 25-year-old, MLB-ready pitcher, who is one of the most sought-after pitchers in baseball with a high K-rate, normally-low BB-rate, and may become one of the best offensive pitchers in recent memory
a 24-year-old, switch-hitting, solid-defense catcher who is close-to-ready for MLB, makes great contact, and has good speed

757690
08-15-2008, 02:27 AM
The Reds got:

a 24 year old A ball pitcher coming off an arm injury
an MLB pitcher with a 5.00 ERA, who can hit
a 24 year old AAA catcher with an OPS under .700

that stinks. The End.


You can word it that way, or you can word it like this:

a 23-year-old high-A baller (because that's what Dallas Buck actually is, thank you very much) who at one time was projected to be a first-round pick with very good control and a low whip
a 25-year-old, MLB-ready pitcher, who is one of the most sought-after pitchers in baseball with a high K-rate, normally-low BB-rate, and may become one of the best offensive pitchers in recent memory
a 24-year-old, switch-hitting, solid-defense catcher who is close-to-ready for MLB, makes great contact, and has good speed


Tomato....tomoto.... ;)

Blue
08-15-2008, 02:32 AM
You can word it that way, or you can word it like this:

a 23-year-old high-A baller (because that's what Dallas Buck actually is, thank you very much) who at one time was projected to be a first-round pick with very good control and a low whip
a 25-year-old, MLB-ready pitcher, who is one of the most sought-after pitchers in baseball with a high K-rate, normally-low BB-rate, and may become one of the best offensive pitchers in recent memory
a 24-year-old, switch-hitting, solid-defense catcher who is close-to-ready for MLB, makes great contact, and has good speed

Or instead of wording it in a neutral way, I could word it in a negative way:

a 23-year old A ball pitcher who once had good stuff, but whose career was derailed by a major arm injury/surgery

a 25-year old MLB pitcher with a career ERA of 4.97 who played his career in a pitchers park in a pitchers division, in a who is injured but might be better as a hitter unless his injury effects his hitting also

a 24-year old AAA switch-hitting catcher who is more aptly described as a switch-batter because he can't hit from either side, can't get on base and has no power


I prefer the neutral terms. They're less depressing.

camisadelgolf
08-15-2008, 02:41 AM
Okay, well, look at what they traded to acquire that: possibly the worst-defensive outfielder in baseball who probably strikes out more often than he brushes his teeth, can't hit in the clutch, and will soon require over a hundred million dollars to remain on the team.

Blue
08-15-2008, 03:00 AM
Okay, well, look at what they traded to acquire that: possibly the worst-defensive outfielder in baseball who probably strikes out more often than he brushes his teeth, can't hit in the clutch, and will soon require over a hundred million dollars to remain on the team.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush... leagues.

camisadelgolf
08-15-2008, 03:17 AM
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush... leagues.

Not if the bird has the avian bird flu . . .

dougdirt
08-15-2008, 12:27 PM
a 25-year old MLB pitcher with a career ERA of 4.97 who played his career in a pitchers park in a pitchers division, in a who is injured but might be better as a hitter unless his injury effects his hitting also


Arizona plays to an extreme hitters park. Not sure where you get your information from, but its wrong if it says Arizona is a pitchers park. Arizona is actually more of a hitters park than GABP is.

Lockdwn11
08-15-2008, 04:01 PM
Doug don't bring facts into this! Whats wrong with you geezzzzz!

Lockdwn11
08-15-2008, 04:04 PM
Blue, I have been over to the D-back's board and most over there feel the same way you do............ They feel like thier team was ripped off.

RedlegJake
08-15-2008, 08:00 PM
Well, none of the big pitchers we were hoping for. BUT, I'm pretty darned happy with the haul that WJ got for 2 months of the Donkey. 2 Major League ready players and a pitcher with a tone of upside. Not too bad.

I agree with you SoTx. If you look at all the aspects involving Dunn, money, FA, draft picks etc, I can't see how anyone can gripe about the deal and the return.

Jiocketty's biggest job isn't rebuilding the Reds. It's going to be rebuilding some faith in the fans who have become so used to incompetence and losing that they don't recognize a genuinely talented GM when one is finally hired and feel they have to pan every move the Reds make - which was a pretty safe reaction for the past decade and a half. Give Walt some time and the Reds will be a proud franchise again.

Blue
08-15-2008, 08:09 PM
Arizona plays to an extreme hitters park. Not sure where you get your information from, but its wrong if it says Arizona is a pitchers park. Arizona is actually more of a hitters park than GABP is.

I was thinking those were all huge parks in that division. However, considering Coors Field is in the NL West, its probably a neutral division.

That makes me feel .000001% better.

Blue
08-15-2008, 08:15 PM
Blue, I have been over to the D-back's board and most over there feel the same way you do............ They feel like thier team was ripped off.

Maybe if the Reds had received one player who didn't suck I would feel differently.

dougdirt
08-15-2008, 09:44 PM
Maybe if the Reds had received one player who didn't suck I would feel differently.

Then why are you upset? They did get one player who doesn't suck. Heck, they might have gotten two or three.

Lockdwn11
08-15-2008, 10:00 PM
I like what the Reds got out of Dunn . I think they got three players that can help this team very soon for a guy that wasn't going to be here past this season. Great job Mr Jocketty

mth123
08-16-2008, 11:53 AM
I've heard from a pretty reliable source that one of the PTBNL is Jarrod Parker. From what I've heard, he has a one year no trade clause in his contract, and once his year is up (August 15), he will make the switch.

Well, Aug 15th has come and gone and I'm still hoping for an anouncement about Parker being the 3rd player in the deal. IMO Owings is a swingman whose best attribute is his bat, Castillo is a better than everage 25th man because he has the ability to play catcher and Buck is a question mark (but has promise). I know Dunn was as good as gone, but I think Owings, Castillio and Buck is a disappointment in return.

Its been an good week for the farm. The team has added a solid middle of the order bat in Alonso, a high ceiling kid in Yorman Rodriguez, a potential mid-rotation arm in Buck, a catcher who will play in the majors in Castillio and 2 low round pitchers who are more highly rated than the draft positions show in Sulbarren and Fairel. It still doesn't compensate for the loss of talent that losing Adam Dunn represents IMO. Guys who get on base and slug like he does are simply too rare to lose. Adding Parker who could be a future number 1 or 2 starter would certainly tip the scale a little in a way that Owings just can't.

No matter how it plays out, thanks for the post Boiler.

Betterread
08-16-2008, 12:19 PM
Well, Aug 15th has come and gone and I'm still hoping for an anouncement about Parker being the 3rd player in the deal. IMO Owings is a swingman whose best attribute is his bat, Castillo is a better than everage 25th man because he has the ability to play catcher and Buck is a question mark (but has promise). I know Dunn was as good as gone, but I think Owings, Castillio and Buck is a disappointment in return.

Its been an good week for the farm. The team has added a solid middle of the order bat in Alonso, a high ceiling kid in Yorman Rodriguez, a potential mid-rotation arm in Buck, a catcher who will play in the majors in Castillio and 2 low round pitchers who are more highly rated than the draft positions show in Sulbarren and Fairel. It still doesn't compensate for the loss of talent that losing Adam Dunn represents IMO. Guys who get on base and slug like he does are simply too rare to lose. Adding Parker who could be a future number 1 or 2 starter would certainly tip the scale a little in a way that Owings just can't.

No matter how it plays out, thanks for the post Boiler.

I follow your reasoning - but would modify some of your conclusions. First of all, Owings is very underrated on this board. I like him. I think he is as good as Arroyo right now, so how is considered a swingman? He is a horse with a solid fastball that he throws a few MPH slower to get better movement. He can hump his fastball up to low to mid 90s when he needs the pitch up in the strikezone. He shows me the ability to disguise his pitches with his arm slot and throw the right pitches in the right situations. I am not a fan of his slider, which is an inconsistent out-pitch to my view.

I think Buck is on the mend, and he is another potential horse (if he's healthy, and he's a football guy which means he knows how to rehab effectively) for the rotation.
Castillo doesn't do much for me.
I agree with you on Parker - I wish he were the third player.
Even if one or more of the players turns out to be a significant contributor, it doesn not replace Dunn's rare talents and ability to affect the course of a game at any time.

lollipopcurve
08-16-2008, 12:46 PM
Even if one or more of the players turns out to be a significant contributor, it doesn not replace Dunn's rare talents and ability to affect the course of a game at any time.

We'll miss the player Dunn, but his loss in no way means the team will be worse for the foreseeable future. The team has needed a new mix, and Jocketty knew it.

Blue
08-16-2008, 01:03 PM
First of all, Owings is very underrated on this board. I like him. I think he is as good as Arroyo right now, so how is considered a swingman?

Are you serious? Its hard to underrate someone who is as good as Bronson Arroyo, because that is really really bad.

camisadelgolf
08-16-2008, 01:16 PM
Are you serious? Its hard to underrate someone who is as good as Bronson Arroyo, because that is really really bad.

It's the weirdest thing--I just looked up Arroyo's stats, and it looks like 2008 is the first time he's been below average in the past seven years. Couldn't it be that Arroyo is just having his worst season since his rookie year?

Blue
08-16-2008, 01:48 PM
It's the weirdest thing--I just looked up Arroyo's stats, and it looks like 2008 is the first time he's been below average in the past seven years. Couldn't it be that Arroyo is just having his worst season since his rookie year?

Could be. However, he's on the wrong side of 30, struggles to hit 90 mph, and has two flat breaking balls. Plus he had a .788 OPSA last season, so he was pretty lucky. It should be two poor seasons in a row, with the second worse than the first. He's not going to be good going forward and not trading him at the deadline was a huge failure.

mth123
08-16-2008, 01:50 PM
I follow your reasoning - but would modify some of your conclusions. First of all, Owings is very underrated on this board. I like him. I think he is as good as Arroyo right now, so how is considered a swingman? He is a horse with a solid fastball that he throws a few MPH slower to get better movement. He can hump his fastball up to low to mid 90s when he needs the pitch up in the strikezone. He shows me the ability to disguise his pitches with his arm slot and throw the right pitches in the right situations. I am not a fan of his slider, which is an inconsistent out-pitch to my view.

I think Buck is on the mend, and he is another potential horse (if he's healthy, and he's a football guy which means he knows how to rehab effectively) for the rotation.
Castillo doesn't do much for me.
I agree with you on Parker - I wish he were the third player.
Even if one or more of the players turns out to be a significant contributor, it doesn not replace Dunn's rare talents and ability to affect the course of a game at any time.


I agree that Buck has promise. I'm not real high on Castillo as anything more than Javy with more speed and less pop. Where we disagree is on Owings. Arroyo is still, despite the occassional stinker that has ruined his stats, a pitcher who provides his team innings and a chance to win most nights when he goes out there. If I thought Owings was that, I'd be pretty happy. He certainly has never been a 170 inning pitcher. How can he possibly be a rotation asset when his team sent him to AAA? You'd think a team in contention could use a pitcher "as good as Arroyo' whose bat provides some added flexibility to the roster in close and extra inning games. He's not as good as Arroyo. He's a guy who'd struggle to be the 4th or 5th starter on a run of the mill staff and gets stuck in AAA on a good team. Maybe he'll get better, but I don't really remember him being projected all that highly when he actually was a prospect. If he were healthy, he'd probably be the best bet as a 5th starter for the Reds right now, but Micah Owings is to Arizona as Matt Belisle is to Cincinnati. He's ok as a guy to take a flyer on, and maybe he'll figure something out, but he's not a guy I want in a deal for Adam Dunn.

Betterread
08-16-2008, 06:42 PM
I agree that Buck has promise. I'm not real high on Castillo as anything more than Javy with more speed and less pop. Where we disagree is on Owings. Arroyo is still, despite the occassional stinker that has ruined his stats, a pitcher who provides his team innings and a chance to win most nights when he goes out there. If I thought Owings was that, I'd be pretty happy. He certainly has never been a 170 inning pitcher. How can he possibly be a rotation asset when his team sent him to AAA? You'd think a team in contention could use a pitcher "as good as Arroyo' whose bat provides some added flexibility to the roster in close and extra inning games. He's not as good as Arroyo. He's a guy who'd struggle to be the 4th or 5th starter on a run of the mill staff and gets stuck in AAA on a good team. Maybe he'll get better, but I don't really remember him being projected all that highly when he actually was a prospect. If he were healthy, he'd probably be the best bet as a 5th starter for the Reds right now, but Micah Owings is to Arizona as Matt Belisle is to Cincinnati. He's ok as a guy to take a flyer on, and maybe he'll figure something out, but he's not a guy I want in a deal for Adam Dunn.
Well, we disagree on Owings. I do agree with you that the talent we got in return for Dunn was underwhelming and Parker would have made the package at least intriguing. I understand the need to rebuild and I was disappointed at Dunn's inability to improve some of the weaknesses of his game, but at the same time the guy was a beast, a player that could hit any pitcher's best stuff out of the park. Players with that talent are rare.

RED VAN HOT
08-18-2008, 01:48 AM
One thing that struck me about both Owings and Buck is that they have been described as fierce competitors. Buck sounds as determined as 'Monty Python's knight guarding the bridge'. Even though most of the credit likely belongs to Dave Duncan, WJ has been very successful in picking up pitchers coming off lackluster seasons and turning them around for several good seasons. To me, these two represent a good gamble and a better return than I would have expected for a seven week rental of Dunn.

lollipopcurve
08-18-2008, 01:15 PM
a player that could hit any pitcher's best stuff out of the park. Players with that talent are rare.

I disagree that Dunn was this kind of hitter. My impression has been that, for the most part, he crushed fastballs middle-out. Top-notch pitchers throwing well dominated him. At least that's my impression -- without data.

Excellent hitters with good contract rates are the kind that can handle good pitchers' best stuff.

flyer85
08-18-2008, 04:27 PM
Top-notch pitchers throwing well dominated him. as they do almost every hitter in the game


At least that's my impression -- without data.which must carry a lot of weight around here.

HokieRed
08-18-2008, 05:23 PM
It doesn't make a lot of sense to think of this trading as involving "Adam Dunn," as if he were locked up tight in a Cinti Reds uniform for the next 10 years or something. This was a trade of 6 weeks rental of Adam Dunn or, if you will, of the possible two compensatory picks we'd have gotten when Dunn signed with another ballclub after refusing arbitration. That's what we traded, and frankly I think WJ got quite a lot: a possible fifth starter, who, if he works out, enables us to trade another pitcher--perhaps not Arroyo but somebody with some value (e.g. Homer, Thompson, Maloney, Masset, Lecure, Livingston et. al.); an athletic young catcher with good defensive skills, maybe the kind of kid who continues to develop at the plate well into his late 20's (not unusual for a catcher); and a pitcher who could be next year's Thompson, a guy with a lot of upside and, at the very least, a great profile as a groundballer who will fit GABP well. To me, that haul well outweighs the compensatory draft picks.

mace
08-19-2008, 12:24 PM
Well stated, Hokie. And there's the additional benefit for the Reds of getting on with the rest of their lives. They get to stage some auditions. As far as the Dunn component goes -- and I'm not a Dunn hater -- I think it's a remarkable exchange. As you said, the real equation involves Buck-Owings-Castillo vs. two draft choices. That's an argument that can be waged. But Dunn was not going to be signed, and is therefore not much of an issue. Now, the debate about the merits of re-signing him is another kettle of fish altogether. But the fact is, the Reds weren't going to do it so that point is moot.