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schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:37 PM
We all know this is should be a big offseason for the Reds. Jocketty has money spend and roster spots to fill, so use this thread to tell us how you would go about turning the Reds around in 2009.

I'll start:

(These are assuming that Adam Dunn is let go as it would be cost prohibitive to do some of these with Dunn still on the team)

EDIT: Now that Dunn IS gone

1. Sign 2b Orlando Hudson or Rafael Furcal
Either would be a good pick up and probably come at a reasonable price because of their injury history. Furcal could easily bat leadoff and Hudson is a good top of the order bat who could probably bat leadoff if given the chance, as he sports a pretty solid OBP. Both play outstanding defense at their respective positions. If you sign Hudson, Phillips moves to SS.

2. Give Dickerson the center field job and keep him there
By all accounts Dickerson plays a great CF and has some amount of pop in his bat. While he does strike out too often, he could be a good #7 hitter. Sort of a Mike Cameron player.

3. Sign Derek Lowe
A veteran pitcher with strong groundball tendencies would help in GABP and give the Reds their best starting five in recent memory. (Assuming Harang rebounds and Cueto progresses)

4. Let Ryan Hanigan start at catcher
He doesn't really have anything left to prove in the minors as he as a .381 career minor league OBP and a .291 avg. He plays a solid catcher and unless the Reds make a play for a young catcher there are no better options out there in FA. Sign a cheap backup like Johnny Estrada.

5. Move Keppinger or Encarnacion to left with the other guy playing 3b (If they don't want to get a big OF bat)
This move would at least maintain if not improve the defense in left. It also keeps Kepps bat in the lineup which I think is pretty important.

I think that these moves would be good steps in moving the Reds away from the slug it out team that they are now to a more defensive minded and fundamental team.

What do you guys think the Reds should do?

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 02:40 PM
I guess I was right: Dunn won't be back.... Or was I.

Yup I was right

schmidty622
08-11-2008, 06:45 PM
Oh, and here are the 2009 free agents:

Catchers
Rod Barajas (33)- $2.5MM club option for '09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Michael Barrett (32)
Johnny Estrada (33)
Jason Kendall (35) - club option for '09; vests with 110 games played in '08
Paul Lo Duca (37)
Miguel Olivo (30) - $2.7MM club option for '09 with a $0.1MM buyout
Ivan Rodriguez (37)
David Ross (32)
Jason Varitek (37)
Gregg Zaun (38)

First basemen
Sean Casey (34)
Tony Clark (37)
Carlos Delgado (37) - $16MM mutual option for '09 with a $4MM buyout
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for '09 with a $5MM buyout
Eric Hinske (31)
Doug Mientkiewicz (35)
Kevin Millar (37)
Richie Sexson (34)
Mark Teixeira (29)

Second basemen
Ray Durham (37)
Mark Ellis (32)
Mark Grudzielanek (39)
Orlando Hudson (31)
Tadahito Iguchi (34)
Jeff Kent (41)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Mark Loretta (37)
Aaron Miles (32)
Jose Valentin (39)

Shortstops
Orlando Cabrera (34)
David Eckstein (34)
Adam Everett (32)
Rafael Furcal (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Cesar Izturis (29)
Felipe Lopez (29)
Edgar Renteria (33) - $12MM club option for '09 with a $3MM buyout
Juan Uribe (30)
Omar Vizquel (42) - $5.2MM club option for '09 with a $0.3MM buyout

Third basemen
Casey Blake (35)
Hank Blalock (28) - $6.2MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Joe Crede (31)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Wes Helms (33) - $3.75MM club option for '09
Chipper Jones (37) - $8-11MM vesting option for '09
Dallas McPherson (27)

Left fielders
Moises Alou (42)
Garret Anderson (37) - $14MM club option for '09 with a $3MM buyout
Milton Bradley (31)
Emil Brown (34)
Pat Burrell (32)
Adam Dunn (29)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $2.75MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Luis Gonzalez (41)
Raul Ibanez (37)
Kevin Mench (31)
Jason Michaels (33) - $2.6MM club option for '09
Craig Monroe (32)
Jay Payton (36)
Wily Mo Pena (27) - $5MM club option or $2MM player option for '09
Manny Ramirez (37) - $20MM club option for '09
Juan Rivera (30)

Center fielders
Rocco Baldelli (27)
Mike Cameron (36) - $10MM club option for '09 with a $750K buyout
Jim Edmonds (39)
Mark Kotsay (33)
Corey Patterson (29)

Right fielders
Bobby Abreu (35)
Casey Blake (35)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $2.75MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Brian Giles (38) - $9MM club option for '09 with a $3MM buyout
Ken Griffey Jr. (39) - $16.5MM club option for '09 with a $4MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for '09 with a $3MM buyout
Bobby Kielty (32)
Brad Wilkerson (32)

DHs
Milton Bradley (31)
Pat Burrell (32)
Adam Dunn (29)
Cliff Floyd (36) - $2.75MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Jason Giambi (38) - $22MM club option for '09 with $5MM buyout
Vladimir Guerrero (33) - $15MM club option for '09 with a $3MM buyout
Raul Ibanez (37)
Manny Ramirez (37)
Juan Rivera (30)
Mike Sweeney (35)
Frank Thomas (41)
Jim Thome (38) - $13MM club option for '09 with $3MM buyout; vests with 564 PAs in '08
Jose Vidro (34) - vesting option for '09

Starting pitchers
Tony Armas Jr. (31)
Kris Benson (33)
A.J. Burnett (32) - can opt out after '08 season
Paul Byrd (38)
Roger Clemens (46)
Matt Clement (33)
Ryan Dempster (32)
Josh Fogg (32)
Jon Garland (29)
Tom Glavine (43)
Mike Hampton (36)
Mark Hendrickson (35)
Livan Hernandez (34)
Orlando Hernandez (43)
Jason Jennings (30)
Randy Johnson (45)
John Lackey (30) - $9MM club option for '09 with a $0.5MM buyout
Jon Lieber (39)
Esteban Loaiza (37)
Braden Looper (34)
Derek Lowe (36)
Greg Maddux (43)
Pedro Martinez (37)
Jamie Moyer (46)
Mark Mulder (31) - $11MM club option for '09 with a $1.5MM buyout
Mike Mussina (40)
Carl Pavano (33) - $13MM club option for '09 with a $1.95MM buyout
Brad Penny (31) - $8.75MM club option for '09 with a $2MM buyout
Odalis Perez (32)
Oliver Perez (27)
Andy Pettitte (37)
Mark Prior (27)
Kenny Rogers (44)
C.C. Sabathia (28)
Curt Schilling (42)
Ben Sheets (30)
John Smoltz (42) - $12MM club option for '09
Brett Tomko (36)
Tim Wakefield (42) - perpetual $4MM club option
Kip Wells (32)
Randy Wolf (32)

Closers
Joe Borowski (38)
Brian Fuentes (33)
Eric Gagne (33)
Trevor Hoffman (41)
Jason Isringhausen (36)
Todd Jones (41)
Brandon Lyon (29)
Francisco Rodriguez (27)
Salomon Torres (37) - $3.75MM club option for '09 with a $0.3MM buyout
Kerry Wood (32)

Middle relievers
Jeremy Affeldt (30)
Doug Brocail (42) - club option for '09
Shawn Chacon (31)
Juan Cruz (28)
Chad Durbin (31)
Alan Embree (39) - $3MM club option for '09
Scott Eyre (37)
Kyle Farnsworth (33)
Keith Foulke (35)
Aaron Fultz (35)
Tom Gordon (41) - $4.5MM club option for '09 with a $1MM buyout
Eddie Guardado (38)
LaTroy Hawkins (36)
Matt Herges (39) - club option for '09
Bob Howry (35)
Steve Kline (36)
Jon Lieber (39)
Damaso Marte (34) - $6MM club option for '09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Trever Miller (36) - $2MM club option for '09 with a $0.4MM buyout
Guillermo Mota (35)
Will Ohman (31)
Darren Oliver (38)
Al Reyes (38)
Dennys Reyes (32)
Juan Rincon (30)
Russ Springer (40)
Mike Timlin (43)
Salomon Torres (37) - $3.75MM club option for '09 with a $0.3MM buyout
David Weathers (39)
Kip Wells (32)
Dan Wheeler (31)
Matt Wise (33)

joe51391
08-13-2008, 01:51 PM
I feel that the reds need to trade BP,EE and Arroyo for prospects and capitalize the fact that you can get good talent for them now instead of giving them big bucks and getting little in return ala dunn griff. Heck if someone offered great prospects for harrang I would take it. Just look at the A's Twins and Marlins they do it all the time and are always good. That is the problem we have been rebuilding wrong for 7 years now its time to do it the right way
:beerme:

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 02:18 PM
keep at least BPhill and maybe EE.. not a player on this team wants to be here more than BPhill..

joe51391
08-13-2008, 02:38 PM
true but you could get an awfull lot of talent for BP right now. I miss small ball
:beerme:

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 02:43 PM
BP could be a good part of a small ball line up. Hit him 2nd agaisnt lefties and 6th against rightys and he would be money.

Oxilon
08-13-2008, 02:51 PM
I wouldn't mind signing Mark Kotsay. Solves are centerfield and lead-off issues with one swoop.

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 02:57 PM
I wouldn't mind signing Mark Kotsay. Solves are centerfield and lead-off issues with one swoop.

Defensively that would be great but his career OBP is pretty low if I recall correctly.

levydl
08-13-2008, 03:22 PM
I feel that the reds need to trade BP,EE and Arroyo for prospects and capitalize the fact that you can get good talent for them now instead of giving them big bucks and getting little in return ala dunn griff. Heck if someone offered great prospects for harrang I would take it. Just look at the A's Twins and Marlins they do it all the time and are always good. That is the problem we have been rebuilding wrong for 7 years now its time to do it the right way
:beerme:

I honestly would kind of hate to be an As or Twins fan (that said, I'd rather be a fan of them than the Reds right now). I don't think they'll ever win it all with how they run their organizations. They will undoubtedly maximize their wins per dollar spent, and they'll make some playoffs, but they probably won't ever really contend for a WS, unless they get lucky. I think Carl Pohlad, the owner of the Twins, may be the richest owner in baseball. He's got a few billion dollars. Why is he penny pinching? If I were a Twins fan, I'd be pissed that he didn't spend money and shipped out all of his good players while they were still in their primes.

I don't want to be the As or the Twins. I want our rich owners to spend some of their virtually never ending money and win. There's no reason that we should buy them a stadium and not expect Castellini and the Williams' to spend $100-$120 mil. a year. I don't want to trade Bruce when he's 27 because he'll be expensive. I want to spend some money and get some good players around him.

I don't care if Castellini loses $5 mil. one year. For one, there are only 30 baseball teams - they aren't normal business investments, they're very expensive toys only a few people can have, so treat the team that way. If you want to make a bunch of money, buy land, not one of the precious few major league franchises. Really, their only goal should be winning. There's just no way they could lose enough money that it really matters, if they were trying to win. Secondly, they'll make a killing when they decide to sell the club, so they can put the couple mil. they lost over the years back into their kids' trust funds then. In the meantime, their wives will have to lower their shoe budgets to a measley million dollars. Thirdly, if they actually did put a good product on the field, Cincinnati would go nuts. We are starving for a winner. They'd make money on that investment.

Why us fans let these obscenely wealthy owners get away with this small market garbage is beyond me. Us regular people bought them that $300 mil. stadium, we pay to watch them play, we pay for hats and jerseys, and $4 bags of peanuts, and then we tell them its OK, let's sell and start over, we're small market Cincinnati. I don't get it. I want a salary floor, not a cap. If you want to own a baseball team, you better have so much money that it doesn't matter. My dad likes to tell this story about H.L. and Lamar Hunt, who owned the old Texans of the AFL and then the Chiefs of the NFL. When Lamar Hunt was starting up the AFL and trying to compete with the NFL (actually get into the NFL), he lost like $10 mil. in the first 2 years. Some reporter asked his father, H.L., what he thinks of his son losing $10 mil. on a football team, and his dad replied, "Well, if he does it for 25 more years, I guess he'll have to come back for more money."

Oxilon
08-13-2008, 03:23 PM
Kotsay's career line:

.282/.337/.414/.752

Not too bad, and add in his good speed and defense for CF, I'd say he'd be a smart pickup. He's making $7MM this season and being that he's 32, I'd expect him to try to find a 4 year deal worth about $32MM-$36MM. Considering the position he plays and the money we freed up, I would say he'd be not that bad of an option.

Kingspoint
08-13-2008, 03:44 PM
I agree Schmidty to #3. Derek Lowe is the best-case scenario for improving ths club for 2008-2009. Chances of Arroyo being average at best is only about 10%. Cueto will have another year of learning to pitch in the big leagues. Volquez might resemble his second half more than his first half next year. While the shutting down of Harang probably saved his 2009 season, the question of whether it did or not is still a question-mark. Fogg turned it around a bit after he got shut down. Thompson had to be shut down, but certainly deserves to begin the season in AAA to continue to build up that arm strength at a less taxing level. Homer Bailey showed some signs this year that he is getting closer to being ready for the bigs, but he certainly belongs in the minors to begin next season. Bobby Livingston's rehab is finished, but he's been struggling too much in AAA during his comeback. Belisle is a head-case who may never figure it out. Ramon Ramirez and Matt Maloney both deserve a chance next Spring to earn a shot at the #5 position as they've earned it at AAA. Micah Owings last 3 months of pitching make him a question mark also.

So, with all those question marks, the greatest way to spend the money saved on the Dunn non-signing would be to put it towards acquiring Derek Lowe.

Kingspoint
08-13-2008, 03:50 PM
true but you could get an awfull lot of talent for BP right now. I miss small ball
:beerme:

You could, but Phillips' contract is a fantastic contract. We have an All-Star Caliber 2nd Basemen signed for the next three years at a very good price. He's a cornerstone of the franchise for the next three years and is a leader on this club now. He's quiet, doesn't complain, and he's not a prima-donna needing all kinds of attention that some leaders do on other clubs. He does everything well and some things spectacularly.

BP is one of the untouchables on this club.

The club is set. It's time to let them play.

The only tinkering left is to get rid of Corey Patterson and Andy Phillips. Keppinger will come off the bench next season when Gonzo takes over Shortstop again. Keppinger will take Phillips' spot Hopper will take Patterson's spot.

levydl
08-13-2008, 04:25 PM
You could, but Phillips' contract is a fantastic contract. We have an All-Star Caliber 2nd Basemen signed for the next three years at a very good price. He's a cornerstone of the franchise for the next three years and is a leader on this club now. He's quiet, doesn't complain, and he's not a prima-donna needing all kinds of attention that some leaders do on other clubs. He does everything well and some things spectacularly.

BP is one of the untouchables on this club.

The club is set. It's time to let them play.

The only tinkering left is to get rid of Corey Patterson and Andy Phillips. Keppinger will come off the bench next season when Gonzo takes over Shortstop again. Keppinger will take Phillips' spot Hopper will take Patterson's spot.

My word, it's like some people have selective memory loss. I like Phillips, I think he's a great second basemen and a good hitter who could easily improve. But he does complain - remember his comments last year about how Hamilton gets too much attention? And he is a bit of a primadonna - he has a whole routine every time he gets a hit, he trots to first on groundouts, he tosses his bat and does have half-turn home run trot.

Kingspoint
08-13-2008, 10:57 PM
My word, it's like some people have selective memory loss. I like Phillips, I think he's a great second basemen and a good hitter who could easily improve. But he does complain - remember his comments last year about how Hamilton gets too much attention? And he is a bit of a primadonna - he has a whole routine every time he gets a hit, he trots to first on groundouts, he tosses his bat and does have half-turn home run trot.

Hamilton did get too much attention. He also didn't bring it up. A reporter questioned him to death until he was forced to say it. And, even then, he said it in a matter-of-fact kind of way like it was the feeling of the clubhouse and not his personal views.

That's not considered a complaint. Sorry. You've got pretty thin skin if you think it is. What he does when he trots around the bases is nothing for a player as good as he is. Most players have their own little thing that they do. That's extremely minor.

OUReds
08-14-2008, 06:42 AM
The Reds aren't going to be fixed in a single off season. There are holes in this lineup you could drive a very large truck through.

Votto - Often sited as part of the solution, but his OPS this year (.793) is dead last in the NL among qualified first basemen. He needs to take a very large step forward offensively just to be average, and his career .861 MiL OPS doesn't exactly scream superstar.

Phillips - Average relative to the league offensively, above average relative to position (9th out of 19 qualifiers in MLB). Excellent Defensively, excellent overall.

Keppinger/Gonzalez - Kep's OPS this year is an atrocious .657. His defense is a festering blight on the team. Gonzalez is a career .694 OPS hitter coming off of a major leg injury.

Encarnacion - Above average offensively (9th out of 20 qualifiers in MLB in OPS), but, unfortunately, he can't really play the position defensively. His fielding % and zone rating are among the worst in the league, and his last two years say that is no fluke. At some point the Reds need to accept that EE is simply not a 3rd baseman. At 1st base/LF where he belongs, his bat doesn't look nearly so good (his OPS would put him 12th out of 20 qualifiers in LF).

As a special note, Kep and Encarnacion combine to produce perhaps the worst left side infield defense in Red's history.

Hannigan/Bako - Bako's OPS is .629. Let me repeat that, .629. One hopes he is either gone next year or relagated to a backup role. Hannigan has shown good minor league on base skills, but absolutely zero power (His career MiL OBP is GREATER then his .SLG, a rare feat indeed). With no power it is an open question if his on base skills will translate to the majors. On the up side, he likely won't be worst then what we've been running out there.

Hairston (LF) - Career .695 OPS in 11 seasons (we aren't lacking for sample size here). Extremely fragile. I expect Encarnacion to actually be here next year.

Dickerson - Getting his first taste of the big league at the age of 26 on the strength of a .863 OPS year at AAA that he produced essentially out of thin air (his lifetime MiL OPS is .775). We'll see what we've got, but if he's anything other then average he'll be bucking the odds.

Bruce - .755 OPS as of today. We all hope he is going to develop into an elite player, but when (and if) that happens is anybody's guess. Goodness knows we don't like to think about it, but what if he is Austin Kearns redux instead of Larry Walker?

To compete in the near future (and I'm not just talking about next year) we would need a catcher, a SS, an very good corner bat, essentially every single youngster to take a large development step forward, and continued good health from out young pitchers.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but there's a better chance I hit the lottery then the Reds competing next year and the year after that. There's a better chance that the offense is going to be Washingtonian-type bad the next few years.

I haven't even touched on the pitching, because I think there is long term talent there, but this year? 27th in MLB in runs allowed.

Good luck Walt, I'm rooting for you.

Griffey012
08-14-2008, 07:39 AM
Kotsay's career line:

.282/.337/.414/.752

Not too bad, and add in his good speed and defense for CF, I'd say he'd be a smart pickup. He's making $7MM this season and being that he's 32, I'd expect him to try to find a 4 year deal worth about $32MM-$36MM. Considering the position he plays and the money we freed up, I would say he'd be not that bad of an option.

You want to spend 32 million on a 32 year old who has spend more than his fair share of time on the DL? If you didn't have the risk of Kotsay gettin hurt it would be a solid move, but with the state of the club right now we could spend the money wiser.

joe51391
08-14-2008, 08:29 AM
Hey I'm just saying we could get some really good talent by trading BP now and its not that I dislike him or anything its just we are getting young and by the time this team is getting good he is going to be making 15 mil a year and then we can't trade him when we are in a money crunch when votto bruce cueto EV and any other young guy who is going to be going through arbitration. Don't get me wrong I love BP on this team but just think what he can bring :eek:
:beerme:

Brutus
08-14-2008, 09:25 AM
I've been advocating the signing of Kotsay all year. I think he's a very good option for CF for next season. Good defensive player and a solid offensive option. I'm not sure how much he'll command, but I don't think it's going to be too outrageous, even for his own ability/production.

My offseason moves would be:

* Go after Sabathia or Sheets, but if unsuccessful, sign Derek Lowe
* Mark Kotsay for CF
* Make a run for Pat Burrell or Mark Teixeira. If they were to sign Tex, move Votto to left. If they strike out on both, maybe sign Emil Brown or Juan Rivera. There aren't a lot of attractive options out there beyond those two
* Bolster the bullpen with a quality arm or two - maybe Chad Durbin?
* Make a run for Orlando Hudson & move Phillips to shortstop (or trade him)

These are the ideas I'd look into. It seems if Wilkin Castillo is part of this Diamondbacks trade that we might not see the Reds make a play for another catcher (although they still could). But LF, CF, the bullpen, another starter and either a SS or 2B could be spots that are tweaked this offseason.

I wouldn't be surprised if Phillips and Arroyo are traded, in fact. Signing Hudson, Kotsay and a few pitchers could be a good upgrade for the team.

I envision an opening day lineup kind of like this:

C Wilkin Castillo (or perhaps Gerald Laird or a traded commodity)
1B Joey Votto
2B Orlando Hudson or Brandon Phillips
SS Brandon Phillips or Jeff Keppinger
3B Edwin Encarnacion
LF Emil Brown or someone traded from another organization
CF Mark Kotsay or Chris Dickerson
RF Jay Bruce

SP Aaron Harang
SP Edinson Volquez
SP Johnny Cueto
SP Micah Owings
SP Bronson Arroyo / Homer Bailey / Derek Lowe / Sheets or Sabathia / Darryl Thompson

I think the Reds have a lot of options, actually. I think the potential is there for a very good season, even despite missing Dunn's bat.

improbus
08-14-2008, 09:26 AM
The Reds aren't going to be fixed in a single off season. There are holes in this lineup you could drive a very large truck through.

Votto - Often sited as part of the solution, but his OPS this year (.793) is dead last in the NL among qualified first basemen. He needs to take a very large step forward offensively just to be average, and his career .861 MiL OPS doesn't exactly scream superstar.

Phillips - Average relative to the league offensively, above average relative to position (9th out of 19 qualifiers in MLB). Excellent Defensively, excellent overall.

Keppinger/Gonzalez - Kep's OPS this year is an atrocious .657. His defense is a festering blight on the team. Gonzalez is a career .694 OPS hitter coming off of a major leg injury.

Encarnacion - Above average offensively (9th out of 20 qualifiers in MLB in OPS), but, unfortunately, he can't really play the position defensively. His fielding % and zone rating are among the worst in the league, and his last two years say that is no fluke. At some point the Reds need to accept that EE is simply not a 3rd baseman. At 1st base/LF where he belongs, his bat doesn't look nearly so good (his OPS would put him 12th out of 20 qualifiers in LF).

As a special note, Kep and Encarnacion combine to produce perhaps the worst left side infield defense in Red's history.

Hannigan/Bako - Bako's OPS is .629. Let me repeat that, .629. One hopes he is either gone next year or relagated to a backup role. Hannigan has shown good minor league on base skills, but absolutely zero power (His career MiL OBP is GREATER then his .SLG, a rare feat indeed). With no power it is an open question if his on base skills will translate to the majors. On the up side, he likely won't be worst then what we've been running out there.

Hairston (LF) - Career .695 OPS in 11 seasons (we aren't lacking for sample size here). Extremely fragile. I expect Encarnacion to actually be here next year.

Dickerson - Getting his first taste of the big league at the age of 26 on the strength of a .863 OPS year at AAA that he produced essentially out of thin air (his lifetime MiL OPS is .775). We'll see what we've got, but if he's anything other then average he'll be bucking the odds.

Bruce - .755 OPS as of today. We all hope he is going to develop into an elite player, but when (and if) that happens is anybody's guess. Goodness knows we don't like to think about it, but what if he is Austin Kearns redux instead of Larry Walker?

To compete in the near future (and I'm not just talking about next year) we would need a catcher, a SS, an very good corner bat, essentially every single youngster to take a large development step forward, and continued good health from out young pitchers.

I hate to be a buzzkill, but there's a better chance I hit the lottery then the Reds competing next year and the year after that. There's a better chance that the offense is going to be Washingtonian-type bad the next few years.

I haven't even touched on the pitching, because I think there is long term talent there, but this year? 27th in MLB in runs allowed.

Good luck Walt, I'm rooting for you.
Wow, so I guess that Bruce, Votto, Dickinson, and Hanigan's combined 750 ML AB's have told the tale...

But, I do agree that the Reds are years away. And guess what, that is fine. Wouldn't you rather watch a young team growing up together, improving and learning how to play than watch the Reds trot out an group of mid level to below average free agents that will never win? I keep hearing names like Teixeira and Sabathia. Are you crazy? What would that accomplish? This process, if done correctly, should take 3-5 years. Also, we shouldn't get too attached to these guys. There is no guarantee that Bruce, Votto, and Phillips would even be here when they start to compete. It took the Milwaukee guys 3-5 years, it took the D-Backs 3 years. It will take time, so quit worrying about next year. Get ready for 100 losses baby!

OUReds
08-14-2008, 10:37 AM
Wow, so I guess that Bruce, Votto, Dickinson, and Hanigan's combined 750 ML AB's have told the tale...

Of course not, they are all young players who will likely improve. To what extent is the question of course.


But, I do agree that the Reds are years away. And guess what, that is fine. Wouldn't you rather watch a young team growing up together, improving and learning how to play than watch the Reds trot out an group of mid level to below average free agents that will never win!

I would prefer to see the Reds in a position to compete. I've been watching the Reds "grow up and learn how to play together" for about a decade now. Given the situation though, we don't really have a choice but to do a complete rebuild. What I hope is that we don't try to do it halfway like we have the past. I agree that Harang, Phillips, Arroyo, Encarnacion, should all be on the block.

And yes, I am bracing for 100 losses next year unfortunately.

ChatterRed
08-14-2008, 12:18 PM
My plan would be simple. Go after as many quality free agents as you can because you know alot of them won't be interested in playing for the Reds. Atleast get your name out there and show alot of interest. Most will want to go to the big money spenders and contenders.......especially if they're older. Guys I would be interested in:

Catchers: I'd be fine going with Hanigan unless he proves he cannot hit major league pitching. None of the catching FA's excite me. Either too old or unproductive.

First Basemen: Teixeira is the only one interesting on the FA list and he will be woo-ed by every contender out there with big bucks. I would love to have him, but we would have to overspend to get him probably.

Second Basemen: Hudson is the only interesting 2B FA.

Shortstop: Furcal would be interesting hitting leadoff with his good OBP and speed. He also walks a decent amount. Plus he would shore up the middle defense.

Renteria would be acceptable at the right price. He has good career numbers, but his numbers this year are way off and on the decline.

Third Basemen: Hank Blalock's numbers looked good until two injury plagued seasons the last two years.

Joe Crede has decent numbers but his OBP sucks.

I would be interested in Chipper Jones. He would bring veteran winning leadership, can still perform at a high level, and we have third basemen on the way in the minors. If he'd sign a 3 year contract, I'd be interested.

Left Field: I'd have a small interest in Juan Rivera.

Milton Bradley has played over 100 games only twice in his 9 year career. And one of those seasons he only played 101 games. He is injury prone and I would stay away from him.

Pat Burrell has a career .260 average, 27 HR's, 92 rbi's, and has only 1 error in LF this season in 116 games. Career OBS of .369 and OPS of .858. A better hitting Adam Dunn. Better fielding?

Center Field: Mike Cameron would be a nice stop gap if you could get him short term.

I'd be slightly interested in Kotsay.

I'd be interested in Vlad Guerrero for LF.

Starting Pitchers: Derek Lowe is the obvious choice.

Oliver Perez has had two good seasons for the Mets. I'd be interested.

Odalis Perez is having a decent season. But he's pitching in a pitcher's park this year and his career is up and down. Not that interested, but at the right price. He did make the Reds look stupid.

Then you have all the older veterans that could probably help the team but won't be interested in coming to the Reds and will probably be re-signed by their current teams (if they don't retire), such as: Pettite, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Randy Johnson, Ryan Dempster (Cubs will re-sign him), Mussina, and Wakefield.

Reds have no chance at Sabathia or Sheets. Not sure I want Sheets with his injury prone history.

Closers/Relievers:
Brian Fuentes has put up good numbers in his career.
Francisco Rodriguez has been dead on for several seasons.


More than likely nothing happens.

improbus
08-14-2008, 02:11 PM
I've been watching the Reds "grow up and learn how to play together" for about a decade now.

The difference now is that they are not only rebuilding with position players but with pitchers too. The Dunn/Lopez/Kearns squad was all based on offense. So when they said, let's let the young guys grow up together, they were also including Jimmy Haynes and Pete Harnisch. This time there are some young arms involved. Hopefully it will be different. PLEASE....

roby
08-14-2008, 02:40 PM
I feel that the reds need to trade BP,EE and Arroyo for prospects and capitalize the fact that you can get good talent for them now instead of giving them big bucks and getting little in return ala dunn griff. Heck if someone offered great prospects for harrang I would take it. Just look at the A's Twins and Marlins they do it all the time and are always good. That is the problem we have been rebuilding wrong for 7 years now its time to do it the right way
:beerme:

Complete insanity to trade Brandon. He is the kind of player that you want to hang onto. Harang also. Don't give away the parts you've already assembled. Play add-on!

I wonder how Frazier or Valaika would do at 2nd base? Move Phillips to shortstop. Add a good hitting outfielder and a good starting pitcher...and things are looking good.

INRedsFan
08-17-2008, 10:07 PM
Moves for next year......how about a new pitching coach? Let's quit trading pitchers to other teams so they can then have great seasons. Let's get a good pitching coach......with the St. Louis connection.....why not look there. They have taken a lot of pitchers that did poorly in Cincinnati and made them look good in St. Louis.