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Chip R
08-12-2008, 09:07 AM
Have at it.

JaxRed
08-12-2008, 09:19 AM
Dunn was traded?

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 09:19 AM
The Griffey thread has NOTHING on the Dunn thread....:)

oneupper
08-12-2008, 09:20 AM
I agree with everyone on the other thread. :thumbup:

blumj
08-12-2008, 09:22 AM
While I wouldn't put it past Jim Bowden to maybe threaten to claim a player to try to squeeze a "favor" out of one of the teams involved, the next time he tried to make a post-deadline deal, those teams could do the same thing right back to him. That could very well be how it works. But, the trade will be completed as intended eventually, one way or another. Josh Byrnes isn't Jim Bowden.

RedLegSuperStar
08-12-2008, 09:22 AM
Wow... Dunner generated a lot of posts.. I thought the Reds were rumored to get Bedard again.. :confused:

It will be neat to see how Dunn actually does in a batting order slot more suitable for him and have guys around him like Jackson, Drew, Reynolds, and Young.

nate
08-12-2008, 09:28 AM
Here's (http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?t=4990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) a thread from the D-Backs' point of view. I've only read the first few pages so far.

smith288
08-12-2008, 09:28 AM
It sucks his quest for most homers for a Red is over.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:29 AM
Hypothetical question to ask yourselves:

Many judged "The Trade" by how Lopez and Kearns performed after they were dealt, not how they performed before the deal. Kearns was obviously a much better performer (for whatever reason) in Cincy than what he has shown in Washington. Same with Lopez.

If Dunn were to bomb out or at least take a sizeable dip in production in the next 2-3 years...would that change your feelings at all?

Just curious.

registerthis
08-12-2008, 09:31 AM
Here's (http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?t=4990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) a thread from the D-Backs' point of view. I've only read the first few pages so far.

Some of them seem to think they gave up *too much*.

I'll be honest...that's an angle I hadn't considered. :rolleyes:

George Anderson
08-12-2008, 09:32 AM
It sucks his quest for most homers for a Red is over.

Nah

He will never of been worthy enough to overtake #5.

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 09:35 AM
Hypothetical question to ask yourselves:

Many judged "The Trade" by how Lopez and Kearns performed after they were dealt, not how they performed before the deal. Kearns was obviously a much better performer (for whatever reason) in Cincy than what he has shown in Washington. Same with Lopez.

If Dunn were to bomb out or at least take a sizeable dip in production in the next 2-3 years...would that change your feelings at all?

Just curious.

Big difference between the trades.

kearns and Lopez were under our control for some years.

Dunn we had for 6 more weeks.

How Dunn does in the future has little to do with this trade, as he wouldn't have done it for us.

It's easier to attack the Reds decision to not sign Dunn (if that is in fact the truth) than it is to attack the trade.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 09:37 AM
Who is Dunn?

RedLegSuperStar
08-12-2008, 09:41 AM
I take my prediction back.. I think the Reds will recieve Micah Owings and Josh Whitesell.

Whitesell wasn't in the game yesterday for Tucson.. which yes could mean a day off.. but the Sidewinders were off on Thursday and they used Catchers Wilkin Castillo at 3rd and Robby Hammock at 1st yesterday.. my quess if they were included in the trade they wouldn't of played last night.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 09:44 AM
I take my prediction back.. I think the Reds will recieve Micah Owings and Josh Whitesell.

Whitesell wasn't in the game yesterday for Tucson.. which yes could mean a day off.. but the Sidewinders were off on Thursday and they used Catchers Wilkin Castillo at 3rd and Robby Hammock at 1st yesterday.. my quess if they were included in the trade they wouldn't of played last night.

That would be a pretty solid return. I'll keep my fingers crossed for something like that, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

nate
08-12-2008, 09:49 AM
Hypothetical question to ask yourselves:

Many judged "The Trade" by how Lopez and Kearns performed after they were dealt, not how they performed before the deal. Kearns was obviously a much better performer (for whatever reason) in Cincy than what he has shown in Washington. Same with Lopez.

If Dunn were to bomb out or at least take a sizeable dip in production in the next 2-3 years...would that change your feelings at all?

Just curious.

I don't have any feelings about this trade because I don't know who we've gotten back. Although the PTBNLs can really only move this from a "it had to be done" to "Walt is a freaking wizard" trade. I know that Dunn was my favorite player. I know that I wanted him to be resigned. I'm not sure that was what was right for the team. I do have faith in Walt to have maximized Dunn's value in the two months remaining on his contract.

For the Reds going forward, this is probably the best move.

So, the answer is no.

OldXOhio
08-12-2008, 09:50 AM
Who is Dunn?

His name is Scott and apparently we just traded him to the White Sox.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 09:52 AM
DBax posters are saying that anyone who has been on the 25-man this year could not be a PTBNL -- this would eliminate Owings. Are they right?

JaxRed
08-12-2008, 09:54 AM
They're Diamondback posters..... how much could they know?

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:59 AM
Big difference between the trades.

kearns and Lopez were under our control for some years.

Dunn we had for 6 more weeks.

How Dunn does in the future has little to do with this trade, as he wouldn't have done it for us.

It's easier to attack the Reds decision to not sign Dunn (if that is in fact the truth) than it is to attack the trade.

Very true...but I think the animosity of this trade is part the return (we didn't get enough) and part the reality of the situation (he most likely isn't coming back). Some people have to realize the reality was happening anyway. So my hypothetical was with that in mind. If he happens to bomb out over the next few years, would that change anyone's mind?

blumj
08-12-2008, 10:00 AM
DBax posters are saying that anyone who has been on the 25-man this year could not be a PTBNL -- this would eliminate Owings. Are they right?
No. They can't be on it at the time of the trade, and they can't be put back on it after, but they could have been earlier in the season. The purpose of that rule is to prevent a team from trading a player, then using him until some later point as if they hadn't already traded him.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 10:03 AM
No. They can't be on it at the time of the trade, because the Reds and D-Backs play in the same league, but they could have been earlier in the season.

Thanks

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 10:06 AM
Very true...but I think the animosity of this trade is part the return (we didn't get enough) and part the reality of the situation (he most likely isn't coming back).


The Return???

No one here knows what that was.....

blumj
08-12-2008, 10:10 AM
Thanks

You're welcome. And, it doesn't pertain to this trade, but I don't actually know if the AL and NL are considered the same league for the purposes of that rule, but I would assume they have to be. If the PTBNL was Owings, and he was being traded to the Rays instead of the D-Backs, you wouldn't want the D-Backs to be able to have Owings play in a major league game tomorrow since he's already been traded for Dunn. AL or NL shouldn't matter.

Benihana
08-12-2008, 10:10 AM
The Return???

No one here knows what that was.....

Anybody have any idea as to when we'll find out?

NJReds
08-12-2008, 10:14 AM
This from the Arizona Republic (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/2008/08/11/20080811dbacksdunn-CR.html):

According to the Arizona GM, the the 2 PTBNL are on the 40-man and in the minor leagues.


Class-A right-hander Dallas Buck was announced as part of the trade, and the other two players have yet to be named but are on the Diamondbacks' 40-man roster and in their farm system. The Reds and Diamondbacks are believed to be splitting what remains of Dunn's $13 million salary.

(Arizona GM Josh) Byrnes said he "can't shed any light" on the unnamed players. Players on the 40-man roster have to clear waivers first to be traded after July 31. The players who were not announced in the deal either have not yet been placed on waivers or did not pass through unclaimed.

If the players don't make it through waivers, the soonest they could be traded is after the final regular-season game of the season.

princeton
08-12-2008, 10:15 AM
Anybody have any idea as to when we'll find out?

my guess is 48 hrs if they clear. End of season if they don't.

blumj
08-12-2008, 10:17 AM
Even if they have to wait until October to complete the trade officially, which is unlikely but possible, it'll probably leak out any time now. Too many people already know, and too many people care, for it to stay secret for any length of time.

IslandRed
08-12-2008, 10:17 AM
If Dunn were to bomb out or at least take a sizeable dip in production in the next 2-3 years...would that change your feelings at all?

For me, it's more of an academic exercise. There's a theory that players like Dunn (old-player skills + old-player body at a relatively young age) will decline earlier and faster than more athletic players. That was my primary concern in offering him a long-term (> 3 years) extension. I don't think he's much of a risk in the next couple of years but it'll be interesting to see if he can maintain good production into his mid-30s or if he's going to take the Hafner Dive.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 10:17 AM
While I wouldn't put it past Jim Bowden to maybe threaten to claim a player to try to squeeze a "favor" out of one of the teams involved, the next time he tried to make a post-deadline deal, those teams could do the same thing right back to him. That could very well be how it works. But, the trade will be completed as intended eventually, one way or another. Josh Byrnes isn't Jim Bowden.


I don't think he would do that. No GM would do that intentionally, because then all their waiver wire trades would be blocked. Think about it..next year the Reds could retaliate and block Bowden from trading one of his guys to a contender.

There's no way Bowden could extract anything out of anyone by claiming Owens. The Dbacks would simply pull him back and then send him to Cincy after the season was over.

Besides, I think Bowden has more important things to do than sit around all day trying to figure out ways to be a pest to the Reds. He has his own team to run.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 10:18 AM
Some of them seem to think they gave up *too much*.

I'll be honest...that's an angle I hadn't considered. :rolleyes:


:lol: Just goes to show that fans overrate their own prospects.

IslandRed
08-12-2008, 10:19 AM
You're welcome. And, it doesn't pertain to this trade, but I don't actually know if the AL and NL are considered the same league for the purposes of that rule, but I would assume they have to be. If the PTBNL was Owings, and he was being traded to the Rays instead of the D-Backs, you wouldn't want the D-Backs to be able to have Owings play in a major league game tomorrow since he's already been traded for Dunn. AL or NL shouldn't matter.

The AL and NL are not considered the same league for those purposes. PuffyPig posted in another thread that Mark Lewis played for us down the stretch in '95 even though he was ticketed to be the PTBNL for David Wells.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 10:22 AM
The AL and NL are not considered the same league for those purposes. PuffyPig posted in another thread that Mark Lewis played for us down the stretch in '95 even though he was ticketed to be the PTBNL for David Wells.

I was reading on the Sons of Sam Horn about this rule, and it appears that the AL and NL can no longer be considered separate leagues. MLB is MLB. Sounds like the rule change was made in part to close the loophole the Reds and Tigers used in 95.

blumj
08-12-2008, 10:22 AM
The AL and NL are not considered the same league for those purposes. PuffyPig posted in another thread that Mark Lewis played for us down the stretch in '95 even though he was ticketed to be the PTBNL for David Wells.
It's been a while since '95, so maybe they've changed that, but, if they haven't, they really should.

WebScorpion
08-12-2008, 10:28 AM
The Return???

No one here knows what that was.....

Is it possible to trade someone on the 15-day DL as a PTBNL?

If so, these guys are on their 15-day DL:
Justin Upton, Right-handed OF, almost 21 years old
Doug Slaten, Left-handed P, 28 yrs old

Here's the rest of the guys on their 40-man roster who aren't on the 25-man:
Josh Whitesell L/L Inf 26
Javier Brito R/R Inf 25
Robby Hammock R/R C 31
Wilkin Castillo S/R C 24
Esmerling Vasquez R/R P 24
Max Scherzer R/R P 24
Jailen Peguero R/R P 27
Micah Owings R/R P 25
Juan Gutierrez R/R P 24
Emiliano Fruto R/R P 24
Jonathan Coutlangus L/L P 27

Your guess is as good as mine, or probably better, as far as which ones are part of the trade. If they don't pass through waivers, they remain a PTBNL until (Sep 29th) after the regular season ends. So it could be a while befor ewe have any idea what kind of return Walt got.
My apologies if this has already been covered on the previous thread...although I think I read it all, I may have missed something.

princeton
08-12-2008, 10:33 AM
If Dunn were to bomb out or at least take a sizeable dip in production in the next 2-3 years...would that change your feelings at all?


Reds surely had a chance to sign Dunn for 4-5 year extension (and could still do so, which is interesting)

so of course we'll be watching future years to see if he merited big money. If he's Reggie Jackson, Adam Dunn, or Dave Kingman. As well as if the Reds improve to the level that they'd be over the hump if they just had an Adam Dunn around...

the great thing about Dunn, of course, is that if you get to the level of being almost over the hump, you can offer very little to get him back in trade. :thumbup:

Johnny Footstool
08-12-2008, 10:34 AM
I love the guy on the D-Backs forum who posted Adam Dunn's poor stats from the past 10 days as an indictment of the trade.

Benihana
08-12-2008, 10:36 AM
Maybe we traded Dunn for Coutlangus? :cool:

I'm still hanging onto my pipe dream that Max Scherzer is coming back in the deal. In a more realistic world however, I have to think that it's Owings. What do others think? Is Whitesell definitely the best player on the list after those two? Why in the WORLD would we want another ML-ready 1B at this point, unless they are not planning on signing Yonder, which I think they will.

paulrichjr
08-12-2008, 10:37 AM
Just got to say thanks to everyone who makes this board so good. Just reading a few posts on the D-Backs board makes you realize that Redszone is by far the best.

Roy Tucker
08-12-2008, 10:38 AM
The more I think about this, the more I think that Adam Dunn continuing his career in Cincinnati just wasn't meant to be.

You've got the jumbling of GMs over the last few seasons that caused a LT contract with Dunn to be problematic. Somehow, the collective genius of the Reds GMs seemed to value Dunn, but not enough to make him the cornerstone of the franchise. His ups and downs and his skill set seemed to make it hard for them to get a reading on whether or not they wanted to keep him.

Dunn was a lightning rod for criticism from the press, the media, and on internet bulletin boards. For such an easy-going big lug of a guy, he sure got people riled up. If he re-signed with the Reds, that was all only going to get worse.

And then the big question of whether or not a team with the budget and resources of the Reds to sink a big chuck of money into one player.

Good luck to Adam and I hope his career is long and prosperous. And good luck to us faithful Reds fans who stick with the team through thick or thin. Unlike BCast, I think we're in for another dry spell.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 10:38 AM
Why in the WORLD would we want another ML-ready 1B at this point, unless they are not planning on signing Yonder, which I think they will.

Good bat off the bench?

Benihana
08-12-2008, 10:38 AM
Reds surely had a chance to sign Dunn for 4-5 year extension (and could still do so, which is interesting)

so of course we'll be watching future years to see if he merited big money. If he's Reggie Jackson, Adam Dunn, or Dave Kingman. As well as if the Reds improve to the level that they'd be over the hump if they just had an Adam Dunn around...

the great thing about Dunn, of course, is that if you get to the level of being almost over the hump, you can offer very little to get him back in trade. :thumbup:

I just realized, the Reds could actually re-sign Dunn and not lose their first round pick, because we will surely be picking in the top 15. Not that it's going to happen, but THAT would be interesting!

MrCinatit
08-12-2008, 10:41 AM
Here's (http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?t=4990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) a thread from the D-Backs' point of view. I've only read the first few pages so far.

Their reaction is lukewarm, at best - and bound to get a lot worse should
a) the D-Backs not make the playoffs
b) Dunn becomes a free agent
and
c) the other two PTBNLs are pretty good.
Kind of entertaining to look over another board and see what others think. Thanks.

IslandRed
08-12-2008, 10:43 AM
I was reading on the Sons of Sam Horn about this rule, and it appears that the AL and NL can no longer be considered separate leagues. MLB is MLB. Sounds like the rule change was made in part to close the loophole the Reds and Tigers used in 95.

Perhaps they have.

princeton
08-12-2008, 10:45 AM
I just realized, the Reds could actually re-sign Dunn and not lose their first round pick, because we will surely be picking in the top 15. Not that it's going to happen

I don't really see why not, though I expect to see Dunn in New York.

but I'd rather that he went to a place that might need to trade him in a year or two.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Scherzer pitched last night, suggests he's not the guy. Owings also would seem to be the odd man out in their rotation, now with 5 solid guys already (Webb, Haren, Johnson, Davis, Petit) and Scherzer on the rise. Owings is clearly the best bet for one of the two, and since Whitesell sat last night, might mean he's the other.

blumj
08-12-2008, 10:46 AM
I just realized, the Reds could actually re-sign Dunn and not lose their first round pick, because we will surely be picking in the top 15. Not that it's going to happen, but THAT would be interesting!

Yes, they could. Wanting to re-sign a player doesn't preclude trading him at or after the deadline when his contract is about to expire. It's happened before. Unless it causes hard feelings, and I don't know why it would to give someone a chance they wouldn't otherwise get to play in a pennant race, the Reds aren't really in any different position with regards to signing Dunn as they are with any other free agent. Obviously, they'd have to make a competitive offer to re-sign him, but they would have had to anyway, and the net effect would be that they'd have traded a 2nd round pick for 3 prospects and some extra money.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 10:49 AM
I guess we all just have to twiddle(or diddle, its up to you) and wait. :D

princeton
08-12-2008, 10:53 AM
Yes, they could. Wanting to re-sign a player doesn't preclude trading him at or after the deadline when his contract is about to expire. It's happened before.

not often. and when it has happened, there can be an extenuating circumstance that triggers it, and that doesn't seem to be the case here (unless Adam wants to stay near Creek?)

it'd be amusing though.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 10:56 AM
Why in the WORLD would we want another ML-ready 1B at this point, unless they are not planning on signing Yonder, which I think they will.

Alonso hasn't even signed yet, let alone play one game above D1. You can't really pencil him in for 2010 just yet.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 10:59 AM
I'd have to wonder whether Adam Dunn would even consider resigning here. Why sign back up for the abuse? And Marty practically did hand stands over the trade. Surely he doesn't want that for himself and his family. I'd be very surprised if such a turn of events would occur.

While I was saddened yesterday and I think we will miss him and the success he'll most likely have elsewhere, but it's a done deal and time to move on - lets hope the full return is decent.

westofyou
08-12-2008, 11:00 AM
Things to take away from this deal.

1. Freel is now the longest tenured Red, then Harang and then Javy

2. The D- Backs now have 4 of the tallest players in MLB history on their team (Johnson, Clark, Dunn and Raunch)

3. Paul Daugherty is a crappy writer still, just one without a target currently

GoReds
08-12-2008, 11:11 AM
Let's say that the two PTBNL are Owings and Whitesell. If, for any reason, these two fail to clear waivers, would they continue to play for D'backs org until the end of the season? I'm guessing the answer is yes. If so, how ugly would it be if one of them was injured before the trade is consumated?

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 11:24 AM
Let's say that the two PTBNL are Owings and Whitesell. If, for any reason, these two fail to clear waivers, would they continue to play for D'backs org until the end of the season? I'm guessing the answer is yes. If so, how ugly would it be if one of them was injured before the trade is consumated?


No more ugly if one of them was injured playing for us. The risk hasn't increased.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 11:25 AM
I was out of town last night and this morning, so I don't know if this was posted:

From today's Arizona Republic


Dunn will help lineup immensely

The strikeouts are significant but not defining. In other words, don't confuse Adam Dunn with Richie Sexson.

The Diamondbacks' latest acquisition may be nothing more than a rent-a-pop - a seven-week addition that will add punch to the lineup - but his promise is worth the risk. With a .528 slugging percentage and a .901 OPS, Dunn commands respect at the plate, a .233 batting average not withstanding.

Bottom line: The rest of the Diamondbacks lineup will see better pitches. This more than any is the reason the team should be applauded for securing Dunn from the Cincinnati Reds on Monday.
Dunn ranks second in the National League in walks with 80. His slugging percentage is already best on the Diamondbacks roster and his on-base percentage is second only to Conor Jackson. With 32 home runs, he's on pace for his fifth consecutive 40-home run season.

"Even though we've been dealing with injuries, we've been pretty selective about where we'd find help," Diamondbacks General Manager Josh Byrnes said Monday evening. "Dunn was one of those guys that stood out."

Ownership agreed, even though the club would be responsible for a portion of the approximately $3 million left of Dunn's salary. That the Diamondbacks still lead the National League West despite a steady stream of injuries is a notable feat. Dunn's addition is a psychological lift for a team still reeling from second baseman Orlando Hudson's season-ending wrist injury.

Although adding Dunn will force the Diamondbacks to play musical chairs with their position players, especially after Justin Upton returns to the lineup, it also means flexibility based on pitching matchups. Dunn will see most of his time in right, although he said he'd "do whatever they need me to do. . . . If they want me to catch, I'll catch."

It's a bonus that Dunn, 28, is a guy who will fit into the clubhouse. It's not worth an August acquisition if he's a malcontent.

As far as managers go, Cincinnati's Dusty Baker is as in tune to his players' personalities and egos as any. He told reporters Monday that he was crushed to see Dunn leave.

"I'm more a hello man and a welcome man than a good-bye man," he said. "And to me Adam Dunn was more a person than a player."

Was this deal a reaction to the Los Angeles Dodgers acquiring Manny Ramirez? Of course. But it's says something about its postseason aspirations. As preposterous as that sounds at times, given the mediocrity that has defined the NL West, a postseason that welcomes a shortened pitching staff is well suited for the Diamondbacks, especially with the way Randy Johnson is pitching these days.

"Brandon Webb, (Dan) Haren, Randy (Johnson). When you face the Diamondbacks you know what you're getting," Dunn said. "It'll be nice to finally be on the opposite side of that."

No kidding. Since Dunn joined the Reds in 2001, Cincinnati has never finished with a winning record. During that same span, the Diamondbacks have had three and are on their way to a fourth.

"I'm very excited about the opportunity to actually play on a first-place team in August," he said.

The Diamondbacks liked that Dunn is at his best against right-handed pitchers, this season posting a .248 average (only .200 vs. lefties). His OPS - the stat that combines slugging and on-base percentage - vs. righties is an impressive .954. The Diamondbacks offense has struggled in that area.

The knee-jerk reaction by some question why the Diamondbacks didn't respond to Hudson's injury by acquiring a second baseman. At this point in the season, there aren't many players available.

That's another reason the Dunn move was impressive. Even with the season winding down, the Diamondbacks have found a way to stay in the hunt.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 11:26 AM
I'm fine with Owings, but what does Whitesell provide that we don't already have with Votto and Alonso (if he signs)?

UKFlounder
08-12-2008, 11:29 AM
I'm fine with Owings, but what does Whitesell provide that we don't already have with Votto and Alonso (if he signs)?

Additional trade bait (or option) for a future deal?

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 11:33 AM
I'm fine with Owings, but what does Whitesell provide that we don't already have with Votto and Alonso (if he signs)?

A first baseman who can hit always has value.

Lets say we move Votto to LF next year and install Whitesell at first, who hits pretty good.

We can always use him as trade bait in we think Alonso is ready in 2010.

He is the Diamondbacks most advance hitter in the minors and walks a ton. I would think he's the guy you would want regardless of need.

I'd rather get a good hitter where we are already strong than a crappy guy who plays a position of weakness.

Best player available is usually the best strategy.

puca
08-12-2008, 11:36 AM
A first baseman who can hit always has value.

Lets say we move Votto to LF next year and install Whitesell at first, who hits pretty good.

We can always use him as trade bait in we think Alonso is ready in 2010.

He is the Diamondbacks most advance hitter in the minors and walks a ton. I would think he's the guy you would want regardless of need.

I'd rather get a good hitter where we are already strong than a crappy guy who plays a position of weakness.

Best player available is usually the best strategy.

I agree.

Although the gaping organizational holes at C, SS and CF need to be addressed somehow.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 11:38 AM
I agree.

Although the gaping organizational holes at C, SS and CF need to be addressed somehow.

My hope is Chris Dickerson is able to fill the center field hole...

macro
08-12-2008, 11:40 AM
It sucks his quest for most homers for a Red is over.

I'm just the opposite. I would've considered it a travesty had Dunn overtook Bench for the all time lead.

As for Diamondbacks fans, they aren't exactly jumping for joy, are they? The discussion over there gets most interesting IMO beginning on page 10 of the thread, with this post:


OK, here is the deal kids:

Obviously he should be an upgrade over almost anyone he takes at bats away from, assuming he doesn't continue to slump. However Adam Dunn is a very flawed baseball player that does two things really well: Hit homeruns, and take walks. He is an average baserunner. In every other aspect of the game, situational hitting, defense, etc, he is below average at best, and often quite a bit less than that. ALL of the defense metrics agree his defense isn't just bad, it's just about the worst, or among the 5 worst in LF. And that is only going to be worse in RF. This detracts from his value a sizable amount.

For example, Fielding Bible

2008 -13, 28th
2007 -28, 32nd
2006 -18, 28th

BP's FRAA has him -80 for his career on defense, although only -6 FRAA this year.

What this adds up to is a guy who is usually around 4.5-5.0 WARP1, or Wins Above Replacement.

BP Page

Fans that got frustrated with Troy Glaus striking out and struggling with RISP or 2 Out/RISP are not going to like Dunn at all. He usually hits around .200-.220 in those situations. But he gets pitched around a lot, and takes A LOT of walks in those situations, so Reynolds is going to have to continue to be Mr. Clutch W/ RISP batting behind Dunn

If Dunn gets 2 strikes on him, even when it's 3-2, or 2-2, the at bat is usually over as well.

Interesting to note how much lower his OBP is when leading off an inning, all the way down to .332 Obviously without men on base he gets pitched too, and he is not a tough out at all. But if the pitcher makes a mistake, of course he can park it any time.

He has great numbers in Coors, decent numbers in Petco, and very mediocre @ LA and AT&T . Oh and in case anyone was wondering, really bad numbers in Chase.


So when Adam Dunn is hitting homeruns and taking walks, both of which he can do at prodigious rates, he is a force to be reckoned with. But if you find yourself waiting around for 3 weeks for a hot streak, he could be hurting the team quite a bit before that happens, at which point we could have relinquished the lead.

And Finally, the two worst months of his career have historically been August and September. Hopefully that is a matter of motivation, never getting to play in a pennant race, as opposed to a matter of conditioning.
There is a lot of pressure on this guy to get off to a fast start and show what he can do in the heat of an actual pennant race. Of course, he HAS been in a pennant race before. In 2006, the Reds were right there with the Cardinals, within 2-4 games back all of August, and even tied for first on August 24th

Dunn in 2006 Pennant race
August: .188 .284 .416 .700
September .161 .330 .264 .595

Dunn Career splits page

Lets hope this time he is more of a factor. We don't have a full season for his total value to accrue. We need him to hit RIGHT NOW.

If he does, this trade will be a smashing success....assuming the PTBNL are not anyone of great importance to the team's future. Big assumption of course, but for now I'll choose to believe we didn't do anything stupid.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 11:42 AM
#44 is already taken by none other than Micah Owings...so Dunn may get to keep his #44.

Will M
08-12-2008, 11:42 AM
My hope is Chris Dickerson is able to fill the center field hole...

I would like to see Hanigan, Dickerson & Rosales get a lot of playing time the last 6-7 weeks of the season. It would certainly help Walt plan for the offseason & the future.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 11:42 AM
Although a couple years older, Whitesell looks like a Joey Votto clone. Decent hitter with limited pop for a 1B.

I'd be more happy with Owings coming on board, but I'll have to admit that Whitesell and Owings (along with Buck) is more than enough return if the Reds were just going to let Dunn walk anyway.

Considering the Reds are paying 1/2 of what Dunn is owed the remainder of the season ($1.75M of the $3.5M left on the contract) I would think that something nice like Owings and Whitesell is definitely part of the deal.

deltachi8
08-12-2008, 11:43 AM
3. Paul Daugherty is a crappy writer still, just one without a target currently

No worries, Edwin is now available for Daugherty's craptacular attention.

11larkin11
08-12-2008, 11:45 AM
A lot of people tend to forget that, if back at full health, we have a very good defensive SS with RH power in Alex Gonzalez.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 11:46 AM
I'm not sure we've given enough thought to the possibility of one of the players being the catcher, Wilkin Castillo. WJ's talked about how difficult it is to find catching, we know he was in talks with the Rangers over catching. This kid does not have a great OPS-.652--but he's only 24, and he had a pretty good year last year at Mobile in AA at 23--.302/.333/436/.769, with 31 doubles. Switch hitter besides.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 11:50 AM
If a team receives a PTBNL, the player must not have been playing in the league to which he is being sent at the time of the trade


This rule was instituted after Harry Chiti was traded for himself in 1962

this rules out anyone on the current 25 man roster but allows for players who may have been on the 25 man roster earlier in the season but currently are not.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 11:52 AM
A lot of people tend to forget that, if back at full health, we have a very good defensive SS with RH power in Alex Gonzalez.there is little evidence that gonzo is anything other than average(at best) as a defender ... now coming off a serious knee injury I would be high suspicious of his ability to move well enough to handle SS.

missionhockey21
08-12-2008, 11:55 AM
I'm just the opposite. I would've considered it a travesty had Dunn overtook Bench for the all time lead.
If nothing epitomizes the Cincinnati fan than this, I'd like to see it. A drafted, farm grown player who has a near 10 year career with the franchise would have the viewing a franchise record break as a "travesty" for not being as good or special as the players of yore.

Let's just hope that this Jay Bruce kid ends up being someone we like more so we don't have to root against him or hang our heads in sorrow if he takes a record away from a beloved Red.

No offense to JB, but I wish we would develop 8 players who could break his record.

nate
08-12-2008, 11:56 AM
This rule was instituted after Harry Chiti was traded for himself in 1962

Heh, how do you trade for yourself?

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 11:57 AM
If nothing epitomizes the Cincinnati fan than this, I'd like to see it. A drafted, farm grown player who has a near 10 year career with the franchise would have the viewing a franchise record break as a "travesty" for not being as good or special as the players of yore.

Let's just hope that this Jay Bruce kid ends up being someone we like more so we don't have to root against him or hang our heads in sorrow if he takes a record away from a beloved Red.

No offense to JB, but I wish we would develop 8 players who could break his record.

well said.

Raisor
08-12-2008, 12:03 PM
This is my first chance to comment.

I need a hug.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 12:11 PM
Heh, how do you trade for yourself?PTBNL

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 12:21 PM
* I know everyone has said no decision had been made on Dunn, but I don't buy it. The Reds didn't want him back and didn't want to risk him accepting arbitration. The Reds wanted to move on. With the Diamondbacks, they got Buck plus an Owings-type pitcher and another position player already on the Diamondbacks' 40-man roster, then it's a better than the gamble of Dunn taking arbitration or even if he declines, those two picks.

I think the Reds front office is much more scout-orientated than a lot of places, and in general terms, the things Dunn doesn't do well mean more to scout-types than the things he do well. There's a lot of front offices that would really like Dunn, I don't think this Cincinnati front office is one of them.

But yeah, that clubhouse is going to be different.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog

Big Klu
08-12-2008, 12:26 PM
I'm fine with Owings, but what does Whitesell provide that we don't already have with Votto and Alonso (if he signs)?


Additional trade bait (or option) for a future deal?


A first baseman who can hit always has value.

Lets say we move Votto to LF next year and install Whitesell at first, who hits pretty good.

We can always use him as trade bait in we think Alonso is ready in 2010.

He is the Diamondbacks most advance hitter in the minors and walks a ton. I would think he's the guy you would want regardless of need.

I'd rather get a good hitter where we are already strong than a crappy guy who plays a position of weakness.

Best player available is usually the best strategy.

The Milwaukee Brewers were able to leverage an extra 1B (Matt LaPorta) into C.C. Sabathia.

Raisor
08-12-2008, 12:27 PM
No Dunn, No Peace!!!

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 12:27 PM
Ok here's the thing. As a GM you need to be able to see a few moves ahead.

With that said, what benefit would Dunn have by going to arbitration?

There really is not much of a gamble here. In the extremely unlikely scenario that he accepts arbitration, you would have to pay him around $15M for another year and could deal him whenever you want.

Really though. He is now in his prime and it would make zero sense for him to NOT sign a long-term free agent contract with someone.

nate
08-12-2008, 12:28 PM
Here's (http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/oracle/discussion/diamondbacks_acquired_dunn/) a take from Dan Szymborski


Diamondbacks - Acquired Dunn
Arizona Diamondbacks - Acquired OF Adam Dunn from the Cincinnati Reds for P Dallas Buck and two players to be named.

It's hard to give a final grade to this trade until we know who the players named after the season will be.

However, I'll give this trade a thumbs-up for Arizona for the time being in the expectation that the players to be named don't include names like Jarrod Parker and someone like Brooks Brown would be about as high quality as they would go here.

Dunn isn't quite the hitter Manny Ramirez is, but the Diamondbacks are apparently giving up a good deal less (so little, in fact, you have to wonder about the PTBNL or Walt Jocketty would just take the draft picks) and aren't shackled with big-ticket failures like Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones that they would feel obligated to play in order not to make them cry. Well, there's Eric Byrnes, but he's happily unavailable. We might see Mark Reynolds at 2nd now, which won't improve the defense, but there aren't a lot of other options - no way to get Brian Roberts at this point.

While at first glance I think this is a wretched trade for the Reds, I'm weaseling my way more than usual about the PTBNL because, even though I'm not a fan of Walt Jocketty in general, I can't imagine that he would take a package in which the best player is Dallas Buck over high draft picks. So I have to play nice and not insult anyone. Yet.

2008 ZiPS Projection - Adam Dunn

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Period AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Year-to-Date 373 59 87 14 0 32 74 80 120 1 .233 .373 .528
Rest-of-Yr? 134 23 32 6 0 10 27 27 43 1 .239 .370 .507
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Total 507 81 119 20 0 42 101 107 163 2 .235 .372 .523
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
2009? 510 91 128 26 1 41 112 98 151 4 .251 .376 .547
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Top Comps: Mike Epstein, Darrell Evans

Dan Szymborski

Puffy
08-12-2008, 12:29 PM
This is my first chance to comment.

I need a hug.


http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-9/825505/00676-funny-cartoons-prostitute.gif

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 12:29 PM
The Milwaukee Brewers were able to leverage an extra 1B (Matt LaPorta) into C.C. Sabathia.

Only the guarantee of 2 months of CC Sabathia.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 12:33 PM
Ok here's the thing. As a GM you need to be able to see a few moves ahead.

With that said, what benefit would Dunn have by going to arbitration?

There really is not much of a gamble here. In the extremely unlikely scenario that he accepts arbitration, you would have to pay him around $15M for another year and could deal him whenever you want.

Really though. He is now in his prime and it would make zero sense for him to NOT sign a long-term free agent contract with someone.

Agreed. As FCB has preached on the thread, the choice is these prospects or the draft picks. No chance Dunn accepts arbitration.

Will M
08-12-2008, 12:35 PM
A lot of people tend to forget that, if back at full health, we have a very good defensive SS with RH power in Alex Gonzalez.

IMO and in some other Redszone posters opinions he was below average defensively in 2007

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 12:37 PM
Agreed. As FCB has preached on the thread, the choice is these prospects or the draft picks. No chance Dunn accepts arbitration.

Do we know that for sure?

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 12:37 PM
IMO and in some other Redszone posters opinions he was below average defensively in 2007

Ditto. Unfortunately, it won't stop them from carting him out as the starting SS in '09 and touting the club's defensive improvements.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 12:37 PM
Agreed. As FCB has preached on the thread, the choice is these prospects or the draft picks. No chance Dunn accepts arbitration.

If the PTBNL's are scrubs, we'll know the Reds simply didn't want to have to pay for extra draft picks. It just doesn't make sense that they would pay half of Dunn's salary from here on out ($1.75 M) if they weren't getting something somewhat decent in return.

Hope. Hope.

Big Klu
08-12-2008, 12:38 PM
Only the guarantee of 2 months of CC Sabathia.

I'm sure if you asked the Brew Crew, it has been worth it. LaPorta wasn't going to play for the Brewers--not with Prince at 1B and Braun in LF. Maybe next year at this time, or the year after next, the Reds will be in the same position--needing a hired-gun pitching ace. And they will have the ammo to go get one.

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Slightly more lighthearted, but still substantive, take from deadspin:

http://deadspin.com/5036006/who-killed-the-cincinnati-reds

I will be purchasing that Patterson t-shirt, incidentally.

And then of course there is the incomparable dugout, which I don't get today because it's full of Lord of the Rings references:

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2008/08/11/the-dugout-the-fellowship-of-the-reds/

Will M
08-12-2008, 12:39 PM
If the PTBNL's are scrubs, we'll know the Reds simply didn't want to have to pay for extra draft picks. It just doesn't make sense that they would pay half of Dunn's salary from here on out ($1.75 M) if they weren't getting something somewhat decent in return.

Hope. Hope.

it seems like torture waiting to find out who the two PTBNLs are.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 12:40 PM
Do we know that for sure?

Even if he did (which would be against all logic), that would be a good thing. He'd be signed to a market rate, 1 year deal, without trade protection. He'd be a tradeable commodity, perhaps even moreso than he was right now. They could even play their cards the same way as this year.... get half a season plus of Dunn, and move him at the deadline for prospects. If the Reds didn't get the prospects they liked here, going to arbitration was a win-win in my mind.

registerthis
08-12-2008, 12:40 PM
Heh, how do you trade for yourself?

I don't know, but as you can tell, I'm Harry's biggest fan.

macro
08-12-2008, 12:44 PM
If nothing epitomizes the Cincinnati fan than this, I'd like to see it. A drafted, farm grown player who has a near 10 year career with the franchise would have the viewing a franchise record break as a "travesty" for not being as good or special as the players of yore.

Let's just hope that this Jay Bruce kid ends up being someone we like more so we don't have to root against him or hang our heads in sorrow if he takes a record away from a beloved Red.

No offense to JB, but I wish we would develop 8 players who could break his record.

I'll be the first to admit that I prefer the Cincinnati Reds teams and players I grew up with over the teams and players of the past ten years. And perhaps "travesty" was a poor choice of words. That thought occurred to me as I typed it, but I couldn't come up with anything better. :dunno:

My point, more or less, was (and this is nothing that all of you haven't heard before) that Bench set the record while spending half of each game squatting, did so in ballparks that were not nearly as homer-friendly as the ones today, and was perhaps the leader of one of the best baseball teams ever to be assembled. Make Bench a left fielder and let him play in this era, and he hits 500 homers as a Red. He was a far superior player, and I hope his record is never broken, or if it is, that it's by someone who is regarded as one of the best to ever play the game. I'll make no apologies for that.

Raisor
08-12-2008, 12:47 PM
So what is the over/under that PaulieD makes a retraction about his waiver wire mistakes?

Az Red
08-12-2008, 12:49 PM
* I
I think the Reds front office is much more scout-orientated than a lot of places, and in general terms, the things Dunn doesn't do well mean more to scout-types than the things he do well. There's a lot of front offices that would really like Dunn, I don't think this Cincinnati front office is one of them.



http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog


I think for a long time, the Reds front office was guilty of paying for popular players to generate ticket income. They missed the ball on a winning team generating ticket income. Cass & Walt are clearing out the players who are popular. No other owner/GM combo in recent Reds history had the forsight or cajones to do it.

CrackerJack
08-12-2008, 12:50 PM
The Reds may not have a player on their roster or in their entire farm system who can hit over 30 Hr's, if that, but they have 3 Mascots! THREE!

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 12:54 PM
Even if he did (which would be against all logic), that would be a good thing. He'd be signed to a market rate, 1 year deal, without trade protection. He'd be a tradeable commodity, perhaps even moreso than he was right now. They could even play their cards the same way as this year.... get half a season plus of Dunn, and move him at the deadline for prospects. If the Reds didn't get the prospects they liked here, going to arbitration was a win-win in my mind.

It wouldn't be that good. You'd be spending a ton of cash to employ Adam Dunn on a 60 win team. I'm sure that Bob would take issue with that.

Like I am sure that signing some of those other paychecks turns his stomach.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 12:56 PM
It wouldn't be that good. You'd be spending a ton of cash to employ Adam Dunn on a 60 win team. I'm sure that Bob would take issue with that.

Like I am sure that signing some of those other paychecks turns his stomach.

As I said, he'd be a tradeable asset the moment he accepted arbitration. In the short term, Dunn continues to project as a very good player. I don't see why that would change his trade value so dramatically that we couldn't get a similar return to this package.

LoganBuck
08-12-2008, 12:57 PM
The Reds may not have a player on their roster or in their entire farm system who can hit over 30 Hr's, if that, but they have 3 Mascots! THREE!

Jay Bruce?

blumj
08-12-2008, 01:01 PM
As I said, he'd be a tradeable asset the moment he accepted arbitration. In the short term, Dunn continues to project as a very good player. I don't see why that would change his trade value so dramatically that we couldn't get a similar return to this package.
Probably more. Teams love 1 year deals. And they tend to be very skeptical of how much you really get from deadline deals. Too many of them don't help at all.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 01:02 PM
As I said, he'd be a tradeable asset the moment he accepted arbitration. In the short term, Dunn continues to project as a very good player. I don't see why that would change his trade value so dramatically that we couldn't get a similar return to this package.

Injury or slump would be two things that might diminish his value.

Team Clark
08-12-2008, 01:03 PM
So what is the over/under that PaulieD makes a retraction about his waiver wire mistakes?

He mis-quoted himself... again. :D

missionhockey21
08-12-2008, 01:04 PM
I'll be the first to admit that I prefer the Cincinnati Reds teams and players I grew up with over the teams and players of the past ten years. And perhaps "travesty" was a poor choice of words. That thought occurred to me as I typed it, but I couldn't come up with anything better. :dunno:

My point, more or less, was (and this is nothing that all of you haven't heard before) that Bench set the record while spending half of each game squatting, did so in ballparks that were not nearly as homer-friendly as the ones today, and was perhaps the leader of one of the best baseball teams ever to be assembled. Make Bench a left fielder and let him play in this era, and he hits 500 homers as a Red. He was a far superior player, and I hope his record is never broken, or if it is, that it's by someone who is regarded as one of the best to ever play the game. I'll make no apologies for that.
Dunn could hit 600 homeruns and I'd still take Bench in a heartbeat and I think many if not most of the Dunn supporters would to for many of the reasons you mentioned. Bench was one of a kind and having a player with his skill set apart of this current Reds team would change the dynamics of it so much.

I suppose much of my reaction was due to the usage of "travesty" and I get where you are coming from now more so; it was merely pro-Bench and not anti-Anyone.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 01:04 PM
Injury or slump would be two things that might diminish his value.

Dunn is one of the more durable, slump proof players in baseball. If this particular return is the suck, I'd risk holding on to him.

Heath
08-12-2008, 01:07 PM
I'd be wary of Mark Grace and Adam Dunn together.

I'll miss the Big Guy. What else can you do?

The DB forum is worried about Parker. Buck, Owings, and Castillo would be a good return.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 01:10 PM
After reading that two PTBNL are on the 40-man roster, I'd say the best possible return is Dallas Buck, Micah Owings, and Josh Whitesell. If Whitesell isn't part of the deal then the next best choice for the third player would be either Jailen Peguero or Esmerling Vasquez. Peguero is a reliever with a low 90's fastball and an above average slider while Vasquez is a 25 year old starter who is showing awful control problems in AAA this year after posting a 2.99 ERA and a 60 BB/151 K ratio in 165.1 AA innings last season.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 01:11 PM
It wouldn't be that good. You'd be spending a ton of cash to employ Adam Dunn on a 60 win team. I'm sure that Bob would take issue with that.

Like I am sure that signing some of those other paychecks turns his stomach.

Of course, I doubt seriously that BC actually signs the paychecks. Although I do have to say that back when I did business with the Reds and had an invoice for about $30.00, Marge co-signed the check.

[I've never cancelled my contract with the Reds even though I haven't done any work with them for years, but this way, if I take in a business day special, my secretary doesn't have to lie when she says, "He's at a client's"...]

MrCinatit
08-12-2008, 01:16 PM
The Reds may not have a player on their roster or in their entire farm system who can hit over 30 Hr's, if that, but they have 3 Mascots! THREE!

Phillips hit 30 last yearl :p:

Guacarock
08-12-2008, 01:18 PM
If nothing epitomizes the Cincinnati fan than this, I'd like to see it. A drafted, farm grown player who has a near 10 year career with the franchise would have the viewing a franchise record break as a "travesty" for not being as good or special as the players of yore.

Let's just hope that this Jay Bruce kid ends up being someone we like more so we don't have to root against him or hang our heads in sorrow if he takes a record away from a beloved Red.

No offense to JB, but I wish we would develop 8 players who could break his record.

I'll second that.

This franchise and fans have dwelled too much in the past, perhaps contributing to the chronic cellar dwelling of the last decade. Time for new heroes, new directions and a new winning tradition.

I'll root for Jay Bruce or Joey Votto to surpass Bench's HR mark, just as it would have been great to see Dunn eclipse the elite from the Big Red Machine. Maybe that's heresy to argue on a forum called the Old Red Guard, but so be it.

bucksfan2
08-12-2008, 01:25 PM
After reading that two PTBNL are on the 40-man roster, I'd say the best possible return is Dallas Buck, Micah Owings, and Josh Whitesell. If Whitesell isn't part of the deal then the next best choice for the third player would be either Jailen Peguero or Esmerling Vasquez. Peguero is a reliever with a low 90's fastball and an above average slider while Vasquez is a 25 year old starter who is showing awful control problems in AAA this year after posting a 2.99 ERA and a 60 BB/151 K ratio in 165.1 AA innings last season.

That has been the speculatoin so far. If what I read is correct here is the way I understand it.

Most teams place everyone on their roster on waivers after July 31st. If a player is claimed and the teams pulles the player back said player can't be traded for another 30 days. Lets assume that the DBacks put everyone on waivers I am willing to bet that Owings and Whitesell were claimed which pushes the trade back until August 31st. If Owings and Whitesell weren't placed on waivers they should be announced once 47 hours has elapsed. If it is Owings and Whitesell the earliest we will find out is midday tomorrow, the latest could be sometime in September or after the season.

KronoRed
08-12-2008, 01:26 PM
Phillips hit 30 last yearl :p:

Felipe Lopez hit 23 homers once too ;)

nate
08-12-2008, 01:30 PM
Here's (http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=15545) a look at Whitesell's numbers:



Year Age Tm Lg Lvl Aff G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS SB CS SB% SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
2003 21 VMT NYP A- MON 49 167 13 41 10 1 5 19 28 53 .246 .354 .407 .761 0 0
2004 22 SAV SAL A MON 113 380 56 95 29 0 16 54 58 91 .250 .349 .453 .802 0 1 0%
2005 23 POT CAR A+ WSN 113 389 59 114 32 2 18 66 74 125 .293 .416 .524 .940 1 1 50% 1 1 3 9 3
2006 24 HRB EAS AA WSN 127 402 47 106 11 0 19 56 53 125 .264 .354 .433 .787 2 6 25% 6 2 3 4 16
2007 25 HRB EAS AA WSN 119 387 78 110 23 1 21 74 87 107 .284 .425 .512 .937 6 2 75% 0 3 5 10 6
2008 26 TCN PCL AAA ARI 113 417 76 138 31 0 22 94 65 118 .331 .428 .564 .992 1 2 33% 0 3 4 8 7
+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1 Season A- 49 167 13 41 10 1 5 19 28 53 .246 .354 .407 .761 0 0
1 Season A 113 380 56 95 29 0 16 54 58 91 .250 .349 .453 .802 0 1 0%
1 Season A+ 113 389 59 114 32 2 18 66 74 125 .293 .416 .524 .940 1 1 50% 1 1 3 9 3
2 Seasons AA 246 789 125 216 34 1 40 130 140 232 .274 .390 .471 .861 8 8 50% 6 5 8 14 22
1 Season AAA 113 417 76 138 31 0 22 94 65 118 .331 .428 .564 .992 1 2 33% 0 3 4 8 7
+-----------------+---+--------+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+
6 Seasons 634 2142 329 604 136 4 101 363 365 619 .282 .393 .491 .884 10 12 45% 7 9 15 31 32
+-----------------+------------+-----+----+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+---+----+---+---+---+---+---+

He's older but I like that IsoD. His only down year was 2006. Otherwise, it looks like he's progressed just about every year in the minors. He's got some nice power too.

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 01:30 PM
I'm a big Micah Owings fan. I think I overvalue him a bit, but I'd be happy to get him.

IslandRed
08-12-2008, 01:35 PM
Even if he did (which would be against all logic), that would be a good thing. He'd be signed to a market rate, 1 year deal, without trade protection. He'd be a tradeable commodity, perhaps even moreso than he was right now. They could even play their cards the same way as this year.... get half a season plus of Dunn, and move him at the deadline for prospects. If the Reds didn't get the prospects they liked here, going to arbitration was a win-win in my mind.

The one-year deal just wouldn't have worked for me.

The Reds are either trying to win next year or they aren't. If they're trying (setting aside whether they should), the only way it's going to actually happen, on a team with this many holes, is if Jocketty is -- to borrow a Moneyball term -- efficient in parlaying the available resources into more wins. That's going to take creativity and it's going to take flexibility. As much as I like Dunn, paying him $15 million or more is not efficient. It is a situation where earning his money would be the absolute best-case scenario, and that doesn't play nice with what needs to be done.

If the Reds aren't trying to win next year then a one-year high-cost arb deal would have been totally beside the point. Yes, it would have made him somewhat more marketable in trade, but at that price, the ROI would be higher elsewhere.

paulrichjr
08-12-2008, 01:43 PM
I think for a long time, the Reds front office was guilty of paying for popular players to generate ticket income. They missed the ball on a winning team generating ticket income. Cass & Walt are clearing out the players who are popular. No other owner/GM combo in recent Reds history had the forsight or cajones to do it.

This is going a little far. It doesn't take much to trade 2 people that you don't consider part of the team next year and who's contract is up in 6 weeks. Griffey was traded once before only to have another player squash the deal because he didn't want to leave San Diego. I hope Walt is as awesome as everyone thinks but I can't give him credit for anything yet.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 01:45 PM
Dunn is one of the more durable, slump proof players in baseball. If this particular return is the suck, I'd risk holding on to him.

Durable? Sure. But you never know when you'll take a 95 MPH heater off your hand.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 01:49 PM
Durable? Sure. But you never know when you'll take a 95 MPH heater off your hand.no you don't but it is a lot more likely if you're a hitter who is a diver.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 01:53 PM
Why in the WORLD would we want another ML-ready 1B at this point, unless they are not planning on signing Yonder, which I think they will.

A team like the Reds has to grab all the talent they can, regardless of position. Actually, even good teams like Cleveland do that.

Votto, Yonder, or Whitesell can always be traded for something else if they are good.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 01:54 PM
Still not sure why the assumption is Whitesell rather than Castillo.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 02:00 PM
Still not sure why the assumption is Whitesell rather than Castillo.

Because Whitesell was out of the lineup last night and Castillo isn't very good.

OldXOhio
08-12-2008, 02:01 PM
This franchise and fans have dwelled too much in the past, perhaps contributing to the chronic cellar dwelling of the last decade.

You're gonna have to help me with this one. It's in part the fans' fault that this organization sucks?

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:05 PM
If a team receives a PTBNL, the player must not have been playing in the league to which he is being sent at the time of the trade

Quote:
This rule was instituted after Harry Chiti was traded for himself in 1962



this rules out anyone on the current 25 man roster but allows for players who may have been on the 25 man roster earlier in the season but currently are not.


Maybe I am forgetting the details, but didn't the Cubs send Dickie Noles to Detroit for a prospect and a PTBNL while Detroit was in the pennant race. Then after the season ended, the teams couldn't agree on the PTBNL and Noles was sent back to the Cubs? I remember there being a controversy over this in the 80's but I think the commish ended up doing nothing about it.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:13 PM
Even if he did (which would be against all logic), that would be a good thing. He'd be signed to a market rate, 1 year deal, without trade protection. He'd be a tradeable commodity, perhaps even moreso than he was right now. They could even play their cards the same way as this year.... get half a season plus of Dunn, and move him at the deadline for prospects. If the Reds didn't get the prospects they liked here, going to arbitration was a win-win in my mind.

That is a strong argument. However, bringing Dunn back in 2009 would have a cost. It would just delay the rebuilding of the club for another year. Sure,
it would be fun to watch Dunn for another year, but that 18+ million he'd win in arb stops Walt from getting a long term solution in LF, and also limits his ability to make other moves.

I really doubt Dunn is worth any more in 2009 at the deadline than he was this year. Yes, the limited no trade hampered things, but I'm not sure that it changed what Walt was asking for.

I will miss Dunn, but much like Jr, I am kind of glad this soap opera has been resolved and the team will move forward. I am excited to see what will happen this offseason. I doubt we contend next year, but I think the W-L record will improve.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 02:13 PM
Durable? Sure. But you never know when you'll take a 95 MPH heater off your hand.

I personally think it's bad business making big time decisions based on using "what if" analysis for every possible scenario. Sure, anything can happen, but in over 1000 games, how many times has Dunn been hit and causing him to miss significant time?

And even injuries such as those wont change his value as a free agent dramatically. In the long run, it's not going to hinder his abilities.

What I'm saying is, that excepting extreme situations, Dunn's value stands to stay the same, or perhaps even increase if he were to accept arbitration. The Reds didn't have to trade Dunn right now. If the offers sucked, they could take the picks, or have the same, or better offers for Dunn in the offseason.

With that said, the return being speculated here probably makes this argument null.

MrCinatit
08-12-2008, 02:15 PM
Maybe I am forgetting the details, but didn't the Cubs send Dickie Noles to Detroit for a prospect and a PTBNL while Detroit was in the pennant race. Then after the season ended, the teams couldn't agree on the PTBNL and Noles was sent back to the Cubs? I remember there being a controversy over this in the 80's but I think the commish ended up doing nothing about it.

According to baseballreference, Noles was "loaned" to the Tigers, then returned in the '87 off season. The Cubs then let him become a free agent.

KronoRed
08-12-2008, 02:15 PM
You're gonna have to help me with this one. It's in part the fans' fault that this organization sucks?

Not entirely, but the writers, radio guys and loud fans do seem to want to suffer instead of enjoying what the good players passing by here can do, almost as if it's an insult to the BRM to root for a team that maybe isn't as good.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 02:20 PM
The one-year deal just wouldn't have worked for me.

The Reds are either trying to win next year or they aren't. If they're trying (setting aside whether they should), the only way it's going to actually happen, on a team with this many holes, is if Jocketty is -- to borrow a Moneyball term -- efficient in parlaying the available resources into more wins. That's going to take creativity and it's going to take flexibility. As much as I like Dunn, paying him $15 million or more is not efficient. It is a situation where earning his money would be the absolute best-case scenario, and that doesn't play nice with what needs to be done.

If the Reds aren't trying to win next year then a one-year high-cost arb deal would have been totally beside the point. Yes, it would have made him somewhat more marketable in trade, but at that price, the ROI would be higher elsewhere.

Those are good points, Island. But the fact remains, that Dunn has plenty of value on a one year contract around 15M. Blum noted earlier that teams covet players on one year deals.

No long term commitments, no fear of a player decline. If Dunn did accept arbitration, you really wouldn't be on the hook for the 15M salary, because he would be so easily tradeable. At the very worst, you'd field similar offers to what was on the table right now. No destination restrictions or anything. A full season of value vs. a few months. If the objective was solely to trade him, there really is no risk to arbitration because of how favourable his contract terms would be.

With that said, there really is no reason to think that he would accept arbitration. It's basically a guarantee you come away with the picks. The Reds weren't forced to trade Dunn right now, and I think Jocketty showed that by waiting so long. By leaving it until now, he risked losing serious suitors if the wrong team claimed Dunn. He played his cards knowing that at worst he'd be in a favourable situation in the offseason. Obviously, the D-Backs anted up an acceptable offer to make the situation go away.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:21 PM
According to baseballreference, Noles was "loaned" to the Tigers, then returned in the '87 off season. The Cubs then let him become a free agent.

Ok, I forgot that he walked as a FA after being returned. Maybe the league didn't let Chicago resign him after that. I remember a stink being made about it.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 02:47 PM
Castillo was significantly better last year, at 23, than our Ryan Tatum this year, at 25, in the same league (AA Southern). And Tatum just got some big write-up from BP about being a projectable every-day catcher. So I think it's a little too easy to say Castillo isn't any good.

nate
08-12-2008, 02:48 PM
That is a strong argument. However, bringing Dunn back in 2009 would have a cost. It would just delay the rebuilding of the club for another year. Sure,
it would be fun to watch Dunn for another year, but that 18+ million he'd win in arb stops Walt from getting a long term solution in LF, and also limits his ability to make other moves.

I really doubt Dunn is worth any more in 2009 at the deadline than he was this year. Yes, the limited no trade hampered things, but I'm not sure that it changed what Walt was asking for.

I will miss Dunn, but much like Jr, I am kind of glad this soap opera has been resolved and the team will move forward. I am excited to see what will happen this offseason. I doubt we contend next year, but I think the W-L record will improve.

Yeah, but maybe that's a new way to rebuild. Keep signing your old slugger to one-year deals and trade him off at the deadline for some prospects that are already paid for!

Hey, it's the new "Moneyball!"

IslandRed
08-12-2008, 02:56 PM
Those are good points, Island. But the fact remains, that Dunn has plenty of value on a one year contract around 15M. Blum noted earlier that teams covet players on one year deals.

No long term commitments, no fear of a player decline. If Dunn did accept arbitration, you really wouldn't be on the hook for the 15M salary, because he would be so easily tradeable. At the very worst, you'd field similar offers to what was on the table right now. No destination restrictions or anything. A full season of value vs. a few months. If the objective was solely to trade him, there really is no risk to arbitration because of how favourable his contract terms would be.

With that said, there really is no reason to think that he would accept arbitration. It's basically a guarantee you come away with the picks.

Understood, but we're still talking about lines of retreat, not an objective. We wouldn't offer him arbitration hoping he'd take us up on it. It might increase his trade value but I still think that kind of money would be put to better use elsewhere. If nothing else, Jocketty's best trades often involved the ability to take on some money, so there's something to be said for holding his fire.

In the end, I guess, the only completely indefensible scenario would have been to hold onto him and then not offer him arbitration.

Doc. Scott
08-12-2008, 03:18 PM
Castillo was significantly better last year, at 23, than our Ryan Tatum this year, at 25, in the same league (AA Southern). And Tatum just got some big write-up from BP about being a projectable every-day catcher. So I think it's a little too easy to say Castillo isn't any good.

Good point. Plus I'm sure Jocketty has more of a problem with the Reds' current catching situation than he does their first base situation (especially taking the impending signing of Alonso into account). I think it's considerably more likely we get Castillo than Whitesell. Or maybe we get both and not Owings.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 03:25 PM
I can't believe the two PTBNL haven't been leaked out yet.

Jpup
08-12-2008, 03:25 PM
Josh Byrnes is one of the best GMs in baseball and he keeps proving it. He gets his guys for songs.

traderumor
08-12-2008, 03:42 PM
Josh Byrnes is one of the best GMs in baseball and he keeps proving it. He gets his guys for songs.I'm still waiting to hear the whole tune.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 03:45 PM
I don't know if this has been posted yet:


● Manager Bill Plummer said starting pitcher Micah Owings (shoulder stiffness) will probably miss his start Wednesday. "Precautionary more than anything." Plummer said.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/252362

Later, the same article mentions this:


OWINGS HURTING?
Micah Owings has been dealing with a stiff shoulder, and manager Bill Plummer said the starting pitcher would be seeing a doctor.
Owings declined to comment on his shoulder, which was wrapped up before Monday's game. The D-backs optioned him to Tucson on July 29 after he went 6-9 with a 5.93 ERA.

Chip R
08-12-2008, 03:47 PM
I don't know if this has been posted yet:



http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/252362

Later, the same article mentions this:


Ah, no wonder the Reds are after him. Another client for Dr. K.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 03:51 PM
not like the Reds haven't traded for sore armed pitchers (Moehler, Dempster and D'Artagnan come to mind)

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 03:53 PM
not like the Reds haven't traded for sore armed pitchers (Moehler, Dempster and D'Artagnan come to mind)

Don't forget Balfour.

The Reds rehab them, then let them work their way back by getting pummeled in a Cincy uniform.

Then they move on and find success somewhere else.

The Reds are very charitable that way.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 03:54 PM
Don't forget Balfour.

he was a waiver claim

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 03:56 PM
but if they could fuse Buck's shoulder together with Owings' elbow...

princeton
08-12-2008, 04:00 PM
Castillo was significantly better last year.

you don't generally buy last year's news. It's much less interesting.

Guacarock
08-12-2008, 04:05 PM
You're gonna have to help me with this one. It's in part the fans' fault that this organization sucks?


Yes, while the players, ownership and management must be held largely accountable for the organization's inept performance, the fans also share in the blame. How? Let me cite two examples.

A. We got so enamored with glorifying the Big Red Machine that we put on our blinders and mistakenly assumed its alumni would be the ones to lead us to further heights. So instead of seeking out the best-qualified coaches, managers, scouts, whatever, we bought into the notion that this great band of Reds heroes would necessarily be the most inspired and effective mentors and leaders for the team's next generation of players. Didn't really unfold that way. Guys like Rose, Perez, Griffey Sr., etc., couldn't duplicate their salad days in their new capacities, but ownership didn't try to tap a different outside talent pool, in part because of a rabid fan base that expected, even demanded, absolute fealty to the BRM. The result: Things got fetid, incestuous, backward. Pretty soon, no one expected excellence any more. The Good Ole Boy mediocity had turned this into a bumbling, incompetent, disappointing franchise. We're still seeing the churning and the lousy results to this day.

2. Krono Red touched upon this point already. As fans, we tolerate probably the most negative broadcasters and some of the very worst beat sports reporters in the business. These yokels are forever harping on the current squad of players, creating a climate of hostility that envelopes the team and indulging in nasty and vicious personal barbs and attacks. If a housecleaning of the team's best players has begun, then make a clean sweep. Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 04:06 PM
That's a distortion of my point, an unallowable one. My point was that if you are going to call Castillo "not very good," as OBM did, you'd better look at his performance relative to age. He put up a good season in AA at 23 and one way of looking at that is to notice it was a lot better season than Tatum has put up when he's two years older in the same league.

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 04:09 PM
That's a distortion of my point, an unallowable one. My point was that if you are going to call Castillo "not very good," as OBM did, you'd better look at his performance relative to age. He put up a good season in AA at 23 and one way of looking at that is to notice it was a lot better season than Tatum has put up when he's two years older in the same league.

Being better than Tatum and being good is two entirely different things.

princeton
08-12-2008, 04:15 PM
I don't know if this has been posted yet:



http://www.azstarnet.com/sports/252362

Later, the same article mentions this:

good pickup.

Reds might simply be doing medical investigations, not waiting for waivers.

teams hate it -- I mean hate it-- when medical investigation info is spilled. if a player doesn't get traded because the other team didn't like his records, that guy never gets to be discussed in trades again. Hence, the hush-hush.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 04:17 PM
Tatum was just highlighted by BP as being a "man among boys" and a potential everyday catcher. All I wanted to point out was that Castillo outplayed Tatum in the same league when he was 2 years younger. I've no problem with Whitesell, but this board seems to me to have discounted the possibility it is Castillo way too easily. That's all I wanted to say.

RedsBaron
08-12-2008, 04:25 PM
As fans, we tolerate probably the most negative broadcasters and some of the very worst beat sports reporters in the business. These yokels are forever harping on the current squad of players, creating a climate of hostility that envelopes the team and indulging in nasty and vicious personal barbs and attacks. If a housecleaning of the team's best players has begun, then make a clean sweep. Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

:thumbup:

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Yes, while the players, ownership and management must be held largely accountable for the organization's inept performance, the fans also share in the blame. How? Let me cite two examples.

A. We got so enamored with glorifying the Big Red Machine that we put on our blinders and mistakenly assumed its alumni would be the ones to lead us to further heights. So instead of seeking out the best-qualified coaches, managers, scouts, whatever, we bought into the notion that this great band of Reds heroes would necessarily be the most inspired and effective mentors and leaders for the team's next generation of players. Didn't really unfold that way. Guys like Rose, Perez, Griffey Sr., etc., couldn't duplicate their salad days in their new capacities, but ownership didn't try to tap a different outside talent pool, in part because of a rabid fan base that expected, even demanded, absolute fealty to the BRM. The result: Things got fetid, incestuous, backward. Pretty soon, no one expected excellence any more. The Good Ole Boy mediocity had turned this into a bumbling, incompetent, disappointing franchise. We're still seeing the churning and the lousy results to this day.

2. Krono Red touched upon this point already. As fans, we tolerate probably the most negative broadcasters and some of the very worst beat sports reporters in the business. These yokels are forever harping on the current squad of players, creating a climate of hostility that envelopes the team and indulging in nasty and vicious personal barbs and attacks. If a housecleaning of the team's best players has begun, then make a clean sweep. Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

You know I'm down, Daddy.

Where do I sign up?

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:33 PM
As an aside....

Where the heck is M2?


Oh....And I wanna apologize for my behavior yesterday. I was a little tiffy, and if I lowered the IQ of the discussion, feel free to hold it against me. This has been a harrowing (in the proper context, natch) 24 plus hours.

I'm ready to move on now.

I think.

westofyou
08-12-2008, 04:34 PM
As an aside....

Where the heck is M2?


Vacation

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 04:35 PM
As an aside....

Where the heck is M2?


I was wondering the same thing.

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:36 PM
Vacation

Doesn't he have computer?

Somebody's gotta check that cat into a Holiday Inn Express or something.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 04:40 PM
Josh Byrnes is one of the best GMs in baseball and he keeps proving it. He gets his guys for songs.


I do agree with you on that. AZ is a very smart organization. While I think this trade could be ok for the Reds, it's amazing for the Dbacks.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2008, 04:41 PM
They still don't know who the PTBNL are?

RichRed
08-12-2008, 04:41 PM
Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

I was compelled to email Daugherty over his "So Now What?" column. I know I shouldn't even give him that much attention but I couldn't help myself this time. I let him know - in a mostly civilized tone, mind you - what I thought of his article.

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:42 PM
They still don't know who the PTBNL are?

Somebody knows, but we aren't allowed to know.

traderumor
08-12-2008, 04:43 PM
Doesn't he have computer?

Somebody's gotta check that cat into a Holiday Inn Express or something.If this had happened last week, I would have not known until Friday. They didn't have an internet connection at the church camp where I was teaching.

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:43 PM
I was compelled to email Daugherty over his "So Now What?" column. I know I shouldn't even give him that much attention but I couldn't help myself this time. I let him know - in a mostly civilized tone, mind you - what I thought of his article.

You gotta post a copy of that letter.

I will pay you.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 04:44 PM
Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

Sure, I'd love to see Marty get the boot.
It was amazing when he took those 4-5 days off during the season. Even though it was Brantley and Thom, the broadcast was so much better.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 04:45 PM
As an aside....

Where the heck is M2?

.

In the Dominican. Calls to him were not returned. :)

wheels
08-12-2008, 04:45 PM
If this had happened last week, I would have not known until Friday. They didn't have an internet connection at the church camp where I was teaching.

Guess you can consider yourself "lucky".

I can't believe how many people I told about the trade that heard about it for the first time.

It was wierd. The same people the berated him day after day were sorry to see him go.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 04:54 PM
Fay:

Bronson Arroyo is always gives you an honest answer. When asked if he suprised by the Adam Dunn trade, he said:

"A little bit because it came after the deadline. But he was going to be moved no matter what. I don't know if he told (the media) but he made it was no secret to us that he was looking for $100 to $120 million contract. I don't think this franchise is going to give out that kind of contract."

Arroyo said he is not, however, worried about the direction of the club.

"As long as they keep the pitching staff in tact, I think we'll be OK because I think Dusty (Baker) has enough pull to get them to go out and sign some hitters. If we had a real young manager, I'd be worried."

RedsBaron
08-12-2008, 04:57 PM
Fay:

Bronson Arroyo is always gives you an honest answer. When asked if he suprised by the Adam Dunn trade, he said:

"A little bit because it came after the deadline. But he was going to be moved no matter what. I don't know if he told (the media) but he made it was no secret to us that he was looking for $100 to $120 million contract. I don't think this franchise is going to give out that kind of contract."

Arroyo said he is not, however, worried about the direction of the club.

"As long as they keep the pitching staff in tact, I think we'll be OK because I think Dusty (Baker) has enough pull to get them to go out and sign some hitters. If we had a real young manager, I'd be worried."
That sounds as if Dunn wanted a five or six year deal at $20,000,000 a year. I wouldn't give Dunn that.

Puffy
08-12-2008, 04:58 PM
Josh Byrnes is one of the best GMs in baseball and he keeps proving it. He gets his guys for songs.

Yup, I remember when he got that catcher for Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On."

That was a coup.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 04:58 PM
That sounds as if Dunn wanted a five or six year deal at $20,000,000 a year. I wouldn't give Dunn that.

Which would mean the Reds brass knew that...which would mean conversations did occur...

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 04:59 PM
That sounds as if Dunn wanted a five or six year deal at $20,000,000 a year. I wouldn't give Dunn that.

I wouldn't either. But I think somebody will give him close to that, with Seattle and the New Yorks at the front of the line.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 04:59 PM
Fay:

Bronson Arroyo is always gives you an honest answer. When asked if he suprised by the Adam Dunn trade, he said:

"A little bit because it came after the deadline. But he was going to be moved no matter what. I don't know if he told (the media) but he made it was no secret to us that he was looking for $100 to $120 million contract. I don't think this franchise is going to give out that kind of contract."

Arroyo said he is not, however, worried about the direction of the club.

"As long as they keep the pitching staff in tact, I think we'll be OK because I think Dusty (Baker) has enough pull to get them to go out and sign some hitters. If we had a real young manager, I'd be worried."

That's kind of what I guessed Dunn would want.
Really, he'd be an idiot not to pursue a contract like that.

Nice comment about Arroyo's faith in Baker though. I think that was part of the reason Dusty was hired, to give the franchise some legitimacy.

Puffy
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Oh....And I wanna apologize for my behavior yesterday. I was a little tiffy, and if I lowered the IQ of the discussion, feel free to hold it against me.

Wait - when has one of your posts raised the board's IQ?????

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
Which would mean the Reds brass knew that...which would mean conversations did occur...

Maybe he didn't want to be here. I guess we'll see after the season. I don't see anyone giving him $100 million+, but you never know.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:02 PM
Nice comment about Arroyo's faith in Baker though. I think that was part of the reason Dusty was hired, to give the franchise some legitimacy.this team isn't going to get better by going out and signing guys. Walt is going to have to work some magic in other markets if he wants to build an offense good enough to reach the playoffs.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 05:05 PM
Maybe he didn't want to be here.

I've thought that was very possible as well...

traderumor
08-12-2008, 05:07 PM
Maybe he didn't want to be here. I guess we'll see after the season. I don't see anyone giving him $100 million+, but you never know.If Dunn gets that, what does Texeira get, $150M?

Doc. Scott
08-12-2008, 05:07 PM
I wouldn't either. But I think somebody will give him close to that, with Seattle and the New Yorks at the front of the line.

I'd be surprised if Dunn goes to a team that's not going to be a strong contender right away (i.e. Seattle). After eight years of losing, does he really want to go to another mediocre team for an extra couple million a year?

princeton
08-12-2008, 05:09 PM
Fay:

Bronson Arroyo is always gives you an honest answer. When asked if he suprised by the Adam Dunn trade, he said:

"A little bit because it came after the deadline. But he was going to be moved no matter what. I don't know if he told (the media) but he made it was no secret to us that he was looking for $100 to $120 million contract. I don't think this franchise is going to give out that kind of contract."

Arroyo said he is not, however, worried about the direction of the club.

"As long as they keep the pitching staff in tact, I think we'll be OK because I think Dusty (Baker) has enough pull to get them to go out and sign some hitters. If we had a real young manager, I'd be worried."

about a week ago, Arroyo intimated that Dunn was moving on, though I also assumed that it was because he wasn't going to be signed

I doubt that Dusty's got pull. But I'm sure that Cast wants to bring in some hitting, because the pitching looks good.

the park size ought to attract some hitters.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 05:11 PM
There blows the whole theory that the Reds were afraid of going to arbitration with him.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 05:12 PM
about a week ago, Arroyo intimated that Dunn was moving on, though I also assumed that it was because he wasn't going to be signed

I doubt that Dusty's got pull. But I'm sure that Cast wants to bring in some hitting, because the pitching looks good.

the park size ought to attract some hitters.

I feel like the park attracts the Aurilias, Hairstons and Pattersons of the world. Marginal guys that feel like they can bounce back with inflated numbers in GABP and parlay that into a more lucrative contract elsewhere.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:13 PM
If Dunn gets that, what does Texeira get, $150M?I have read that he was looking for $20M a year and elsewhere that he wants a 10 year deal.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:14 PM
Marginal guys that feel like they can bounce back with inflated numbers in GABP and parlay that into a more lucrative contract elsewhere.like players used to do at Coors ... where is Hammonds these days?

westofyou
08-12-2008, 05:16 PM
Doesn't he have computer?

Somebody's gotta check that cat into a Holiday Inn Express or something.

Folks in the computer business take a vacation from the computer.

We have to.

That said, he's switching jobs too and is in between laptops, our strat season is on hold too.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 05:17 PM
There blows the whole theory that the Reds were afraid of going to arbitration with him.

Well, while I think Dunn would've rejected arb anyways, I think people misinterpreted the potential fear. More likely, Walt simply wanted to get on with it. He was not interested in the type of deal Dunn wanted and did not want to be in the same position - trading him away mid-season to maximize value - next season. Right or wrong, I don't think it was about the money in arbitration as much as the roster uncertainty.

SteelSD
08-12-2008, 05:18 PM
Nice comment about Arroyo's faith in Baker though. I think that was part of the reason Dusty was hired, to give the franchise some legitimacy.

Yeah...see, believing in Dusty Baker is really more of a "skill tester" than anything else. So, basically, here's how Arroyo did:


http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/128347587844687500fail.jpg

princeton
08-12-2008, 05:24 PM
Marginal guys that feel like they can bounce back with inflated numbers in GABP and parlay that into a more lucrative contract elsewhere.

Reds could use some inflated numbers.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 05:27 PM
here's how Arroyo did:

http://www.red-hot-mama.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/patterson_fail.jpg

FAIL

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 05:29 PM
Reds could use some inflated numbers.

Scott Hatteberg, Rich Aurilia, Felipe Lopez, Alex Gonzales, David Ross, Jerry Hairston are a few that come to mind. I wouldn't attribute all of their success to GABP, but they haven't done as well without it.

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 05:41 PM
Fay:

Bronson Arroyo is always gives you an honest answer. When asked if he suprised by the Adam Dunn trade, he said:

"A little bit because it came after the deadline. But he was going to be moved no matter what. I don't know if he told (the media) but he made it was no secret to us that he was looking for $100 to $120 million contract. I don't think this franchise is going to give out that kind of contract."

Arroyo said he is not, however, worried about the direction of the club.

"As long as they keep the pitching staff in tact, I think we'll be OK because I think Dusty (Baker) has enough pull to get them to go out and sign some hitters. If we had a real young manager, I'd be worried."

That's very interesting. Here we've had thread after thread for the past year debating whether they should re-sign Dunn where in reality it was a very easy decision for the Reds

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 05:43 PM
That's very interesting. Here we've had thread after thread for the past year debating whether they should re-sign Dunn where in reality it was a very easy decision for the Reds

Because clearly the Reds have displayed top notch decision making abilities over the last 8 years?

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 05:48 PM
Because clearly the Reds have displayed top notch decision making abilities over the last 8 years?

Their decision making for the past 8 years has been nothing short of horrible. I'm sure there's a better word but horrible doesn't even seem to cut it.

But in this case $120mill makes it an easy one even the Reds can decide correctly

Reds1
08-12-2008, 05:50 PM
Here's (http://forum.diamondbacksbullpen.org/viewtopic.php?t=4990&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) a thread from the D-Backs' point of view. I've only read the first few pages so far.

I read 3 pages of people saying WTF before I just stopped. I don't remember one person excited about the trade. Most were like how can we afford, why give up prospects for a 2 month rental. No one like yes - this is the thing we needed to go for it. I guess when you don't win the go for it mentality sets in, but I was surprised the lack of enthusiam for adding Dunn. Am I blinded and he is really a terrible player? :) - don't answer that....

wheels
08-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Wait - when has one of your posts raised the board's IQ?????

Why I oughtta.....!

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 05:53 PM
Their decision making for the past 8 years has been nothing short of horrible. I'm sure there's a better word but horrible doesn't even seem to cut it.

But in this case $120mill makes it an easy one even the Reds can decide correctly

Don't get me wrong, I agree that 6+ years at current market price is too much for Dunn, for the Reds. Though Jocketty would have us believe he hadn't yet talked to Dunn or his agent about the possibility of an extension, so the numbers Dunn threw around in the clubhouse were pretty irrelevant. I'm just saying that the ease with which the Reds make a decision is no indicator of the quality of said decision. Though I'd have to agree if you're merely indicating our debate was moot.

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Don't get me wrong, I agree that 6+ years at current market price is too much for Dunn, for the Reds. Though Jocketty would have us believe he hadn't yet talked to Dunn or his agent about the possibility of an extension, so the numbers Dunn threw around in the clubhouse were pretty irrelevant. I'm just saying that the ease with which the Reds make a decision is no indicator of the quality of said decision.

I have to think Jocketty knew about how much money it was going to take to sign Dunn.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
Don't get me wrong, I agree that 6+ years at current market price is too much for Dunn, for the Reds. Though Jocketty would have us believe he hadn't yet talked to Dunn or his agent about the possibility of an extension, so the numbers Dunn threw around in the clubhouse were pretty irrelevant. I'm just saying that the ease with which the Reds make a decision is no indicator of the quality of said decision. Though I'd have to agree if you're merely indicating our debate was moot.

What Jocketty says to the public is a heck of a lot different than what he says internally.

If what Arroyo is saying is true, I'd doubt Jocketty would admit the Reds have no chance of signing him long term because of his demands. That might very well hinder his trade value to teams hopeful of locking Dunn up in an extension before he hits the market.

I wouldn't take the blurbs we get from Jocketty as gospel.

redsfan30
08-12-2008, 06:22 PM
I have to think Jocketty knew about how much money it was going to take to sign Dunn.

Exactly. There's no way he didn't.

PuffyPig
08-12-2008, 06:36 PM
What Jocketty says to the public is a heck of a lot different than what he says internally.

If what Arroyo is saying is true, I'd doubt Jocketty would admit the Reds have no chance of signing him long term because of his demands. That might very well hinder his trade value to teams hopeful of locking Dunn up in an extension before he hits the market.

I wouldn't take the blurbs we get from Jocketty as gospel.

If Walt knew Dunn wanted 6 years at $120M (and he likely did), I doubt he would publically say what we all know. That there was no way the Reds were going to pay that kind of money to a player of that skill set. But it wouldn't do the Reds or Dunn any good to publically come out and say that. So he didn't comment on it. Good for him.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 06:37 PM
Of course Jocketty knew in ballpark terms.

Blimpie
08-12-2008, 06:41 PM
Exactly. There's no way he didn't.I am right there with you.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 08:05 PM
A poster that goes by the username of BoilerBC11 is saying on the minor league forum that he's heard from a reliable source that Jarrod Parker is one of the PTBNL. This is very interesting because this poster went to the same high school as Parker.

creek14
08-12-2008, 08:07 PM
The Reds are dead to me.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 08:09 PM
The Reds are dead to me.

:( I feel for ya creek.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 08:09 PM
The Reds are dead to me.

Wow. I haven't seen you around here in forever. Welcome back. :)

gonelong
08-12-2008, 08:13 PM
Dunn is one of my favorite players, but I am not really all that sad to see him go ... it was time IMO. The Reds didn't know how to utilize him. Dunn was a big old sledge hammer and they were using him to pound in finishing nails. At least they have a chance to go get the tool they know how to use now.

GL

KronoRed
08-12-2008, 08:28 PM
The Reds are dead to me.

I thought we were going to hear about you on the news creek, going after Walt ;)

nate
08-12-2008, 08:28 PM
The latest (http://thelotd.com/ctrent/blog/2008/08/12/what_im_hearing) from CTR:


I've heard that not only has Micah Owings not cleared waivers, but he was claimed by a team with a worse record than the Reds.

That would mean it could only be one of four teams -- the Mariners, Giants, Padres and, yes, the Washington Nationals.

You think ol' Leatherpants put one in just as a final middle finger to his old team before he's canned? Don't be surprised if he did.

What would happen then -- if it's Owings -- is that the Diamondbacks would have to pull him off of waivers and he wouldn't be able to come to Cincinnati until after the season. Not a major blow, butan annoyance nonetheless.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 08:36 PM
funny stuff ... Ol' Leatherpants is still a phallus with ears.

jesusfan
08-12-2008, 08:38 PM
wow... could it be Buck/Owings/Parker... That would be one heck of a haul..

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 08:40 PM
funny stuff ... Ol' Leatherpants is still a phallus with ears.

:laugh: I've seen some laugh inducing descriptions of Bowden over the years, but this one takes the cake.

GAC
08-12-2008, 08:43 PM
I love the guy on the D-Backs forum who posted Adam Dunn's poor stats from the past 10 days as an indictment of the trade.

He was probably from Cincy. ;)

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 08:44 PM
It does indeed look like Owings is one of the two other players included in the deal. If that is the case, I'm more than a bit concerned about reports that he's been experiencing shoulder soreness lately.

KronoRed
08-12-2008, 08:45 PM
He was probably from Cincy. ;)

Or he listened to the Reds radio guys, including a former Dback announcer.

GAC
08-12-2008, 08:47 PM
As fans, we tolerate probably the most negative broadcasters and some of the very worst beat sports reporters in the business. These yokels are forever harping on the current squad of players, creating a climate of hostility that envelopes the team and indulging in nasty and vicious personal barbs and attacks. If a housecleaning of the team's best players has begun, then make a clean sweep. Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

What an excellent post!

MasonBuzz3
08-12-2008, 08:47 PM
with it being reported that he was claimed by another team, would it be possible to have the Reds tell the DBacks to shut him down for the remainder of the season?

Tom Servo
08-12-2008, 08:54 PM
Whichever team claimed him, knowing they can't actually have him any under circumstances, can kindly go to...ahem...heck.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 08:55 PM
Whitesell is playing tonight btw.

Ltlabner
08-12-2008, 08:57 PM
I personally think it's bad business making big time decisions based on using "what if" analysis for every possible scenario. Sure, anything can happen, but in over 1000 games, how many times has Dunn been hit and causing him to miss significant time?

No kidding.

Maybe he'll be eaten by a shark while cave diving in Montanna?

GAC
08-12-2008, 08:59 PM
Durable? Sure. But you never know when you'll take a 95 MPH heater off your hand.

And maybe he'll also suffer a serious groin injury while scuba diving off the coast of Texas?.... or maybe while moving his recliner into the DBack's clubhouse?

Your absurd line of reasoning (what ifs) are laughable. And of course you're only applying them to the likes of an Adam Dunn. ;)

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:01 PM
A poster that goes by the username of BoilerBC11 is saying on the minor league forum that he's heard from a reliable source that Jarrod Parker is one of the PTBNL. This is very interesting because this poster went to the same high school as Parker.

He's not on the 40 man.

wally post
08-12-2008, 09:02 PM
As fans, we tolerate probably the most negative broadcasters and some of the very worst beat sports reporters in the business. These yokels are forever harping on the current squad of players, creating a climate of hostility that envelopes the team and indulging in nasty and vicious personal barbs and attacks. If a housecleaning of the team's best players has begun, then make a clean sweep. Time to deliver the jaded and arrogant Brennamen his walking papers, to muzzle the most offensive yahoos over at WLW and to boycott the ignorant Daugherty and his fish wrap. If the powers that be can't drive these heathens from the sacred temple, then us fans need to get out our torches and pitchforks. Are you with me?

YES!

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:05 PM
And maybe he'll also suffer a serious groin injury while scuba diving off the coast of Texas?.... or maybe while moving his recliner into the DBack's clubhouse?

Your absurd line of reasoning (what ifs) are laughable. And of course you're only applying them to the likes of an Adam Dunn. ;)

I was replying to this post:


As I said, he'd be a tradeable asset the moment he accepted arbitration. In the short term, Dunn continues to project as a very good player. I don't see why that would change his trade value so dramatically that we couldn't get a similar return to this package.

My statement was that he could get injured next year or slump which would then not enable this team to get the same value as this package.

Kind of like when a sophomore college basketball player is a lock to be a top 5 pick. Why risk it when you have the bird already in the hand? So you can pay him $15MM to play for a last place team and take the risk that, for whatever reason, he doesn't get the same return in '09?

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 09:12 PM
Dunn worked the count to 3-2 in his first atbat before chasing a ball down to K.

Buckeye33
08-12-2008, 09:12 PM
He's not on the 40 man.

He can still be a PTBNL because he was signed on August 15th, 2007. He can not be traded for the first year after signing with a team that drafted you. I'm not saying he will be in the deal, but he could be.

blumj
08-12-2008, 09:13 PM
He's not on the 40 man.

nevermind.

I'm slow.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:17 PM
He can still be a PTBNL because he was signed on August 15th, 2007. He can not be traded for the first year after signing with a team that drafted you. I'm not saying he will be in the deal, but he could be.

Agreed, but I thought all sources were in agreement that both PTBNLs were on the 40 man.

fearofpopvol1
08-12-2008, 09:39 PM
So does Dunn's supposed asking price make anyone feel more at ease about the trade?

As I think jojo said before, it all comes down to whether you think these players are better than the what the sandwich picks could have netted. I guess we need to see who the 3rd player is before forming a better opinion.

MWM
08-12-2008, 09:44 PM
So does Dunn's supposed asking price make anyone feel more at ease about the trade?

Nah, if his supposed asking price was really true (and it's still speculation), then that was a guarantee he wouldn't have accepted arbitration. And if Owings is the best player in the deal (and I think Buck isn't worth a draft pick), then I'd rather have had the draft picks. If the other PTBNL isn't someone really good, then the trade was a waste, IMO.

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 09:49 PM
Whichever team claimed him, knowing they can't actually have him any under circumstances, can kindly go to...ahem...heck.

This is the part of waivers that causes me great consternation. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it can really mess things up in practice.

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 09:51 PM
Nah, if his supposed asking price was really true (and it's still speculation), then that was a guarantee he wouldn't have accepted arbitration.

Not to mention the face that a heck of a lot of players talk up numbers higher than they eventually receive or even secretly expect to receive. It's called bargaining.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2008, 09:54 PM
Not to mention the face that a heck of a lot of players talk up numbers higher than they eventually receive or even secretly expect to receive. It's called bargaining.

Dunn will get what Carlos Lee got. That's a guarantee. So...you're looking at a $100 million commitment, at minimum.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:54 PM
Dunn will get what Carlos Lee got. That's a guarantee. So...you're looking at a $100 million commitment, at minimum.

I don't see it. Maybe he deserves it. Maybe he deserves more. But I can't see him getting $100MM.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2008, 09:55 PM
I don't see it. Maybe he deserves it. Maybe he deserves more. But I can't see him getting $100MM.

Why wouldn't he get what Carlos Lee got? I seriously doubt the market's going to correct itself by force of "magic."

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 09:57 PM
Dunn will get what Carlos Lee got. That's a guarantee. So...you're looking at a $100 million commitment, at minimum.

I think he will too, because some teams can afford it. But if he did want to stay with the Reds, he might have accepted less. Pure speculation.

nate
08-12-2008, 09:59 PM
I think he will too, because some teams can afford it. But if he did want to stay with the Reds, he might have accepted less. Pure speculation.

Yeah, I always felt that way too.

Hope springs eternal!

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 09:59 PM
Why wouldn't he get what Carlos Lee got? I seriously doubt the market's going to correct itself by force of "magic."

Maybe it is force of perception. Dunn isn't viewed the same way as Lee is viewed. Like I said, maybe certain stats say that he deserves what Lee got. But I think that more than a few teams view Dunn the same way as certain others do and won't give him either the contract length or the per year value necessary to drive his contract north of $100MM.

37red
08-12-2008, 10:00 PM
Guakarack........... Let it be, I'll get my pitchfork.

fearofpopvol1
08-12-2008, 10:00 PM
Nah, if his supposed asking price was really true (and it's still speculation), then that was a guarantee he wouldn't have accepted arbitration. And if Owings is the best player in the deal (and I think Buck isn't worth a draft pick), then I'd rather have had the draft picks. If the other PTBNL isn't someone really good, then the trade was a waste, IMO.

It is speculation, but regardless of the amount(s) speculated, Dunn was going to want too long of a contract for too much money.

So again, the question becomes these players or sandwich picks. Next year's draft class is supposed to be average at best, so don't think there's not a lot of risk in hoping those sandwich picks pan out.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 10:02 PM
For sake of the parties involved, and risk of embarrassing myself if the deal doesn't go through, I will just say that I have a source that is friends of the Parker family, and Jarrod's family seems to think that Jarrod is heading to the Reds.

Key work there is "thinks."

Seems to me that Parker would already know he was moving if he was heading our way, and it seems that a haul of Buck/Parker/Owings would be pretty sick.

But then again, why would they think this if it wasn't the case?

Just so its clear, I am not friends with Jarrod, just an acquaintance with a lot of mutual friends.

http://www.redszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1720141&postcount=65

vaticanplum
08-12-2008, 10:02 PM
Maybe it is force of perception. Dunn isn't viewed the same way as Lee is viewed. Like I said, maybe certain stats say that he deserves what Lee got. But I think that more than a few teams view Dunn the same way as certain others do and won't give him either the contract length or the per year value necessary to drive his contract north of $100MM.

I dunno. Everyone I know outside of Cincinnati who has a handle on baseball thinks very highly of Dunn. he doesn't have that lazy label everywhere. So the other major concerns are his strikeouts (I don't suspect strikeouts will hamper new record holder Ryan Howard come contract time) and defense (which can be overlooked on a lot of clubs depending on how much they value it/how the rest of their teams are built).

Certainly among people I know, Dunn is perceived as well as Lee.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 10:03 PM
If Walt got Dallas Buck, Micah Owings, and Jarrod Parker for 1.5 months of Dunn then I'd give Walt a 10 year extension.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 10:06 PM
I dunno. Everyone I know outside of Cincinnati who has a handle on baseball thinks very highly of Dunn. he doesn't have that lazy label everywhere. So the other major concerns are his strikeouts (I don't suspect strikeouts will hamper new record holder Ryan Howard come contract time) and defense (which can be overlooked on a lot of clubs depending on how much they value it/how the rest of their teams are built).

Certainly among people I know, Dunn is perceived as well as Lee.

Definite possibility. I've just read more than one article where "people in the know" have mentioned this. Again, maybe I'm wrong as it only takes one to tango in this situation. But I just get the feeling that he won't get that number.

nate
08-12-2008, 10:07 PM
If Walt got Dallas Buck, Micah Owings, and Jarrod Parker for 1.5 months of Dunn then I'd give Walt a 10 year extension.

That would seem to be a pretty good haul.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 10:07 PM
If Walt got Dallas Buck, Micah Owings, and Jarrod Parker for 1.5 months of Dunn then I'd give Walt a 10 year extension.

As I mentioned before, Parker isn't on the 40 man and everyone is saying that the 2 PTBNLs are on the 40 man roster.

traderumor
08-12-2008, 10:10 PM
A Dunn suitor that makes sense to me is the Cardinals in our division.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 10:12 PM
Walt has a track record of winning most of his trades. He needs to do that to rebuild the Reds.

LoganBuck
08-12-2008, 10:13 PM
As I mentioned before, Parker isn't on the 40 man and everyone is saying that the 2 PTBNLs are on the 40 man roster.

My limited third person twice removed connection to the Diamondbacks told me yesterday, three pitchers. Buck, Owings, and Parker make three pitchers.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2008, 10:16 PM
A Dunn suitor that makes sense to me is the Cardinals in our division.

Why? They've got a glut of cheap, locked-up offense who play great D. Why mess with a good thing?

CTA513
08-12-2008, 10:16 PM
A Dunn suitor that makes sense to me is the Cardinals in our division.

I don't see him being the type of hitter they would want.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 10:18 PM
Dunn is 1-for-2 with a double and a walk so far tonight.

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 10:19 PM
Dunn worked the count to 3-2 in his first atbat before chasing a ball down to K.

Dunn? Are you sure you're not confusing him with someone else???

traderumor
08-12-2008, 10:21 PM
Why? They've got a glut of cheap, locked-up offense who play great D. Why mess with a good thing?Duncan over Dunn? Perhaps the price tag is a hinderance, but similar D with better O, I'd sure rather have Dunn. And I certainly don't think Schumacher is a long-term corner OF solution.

Falls City Beer
08-12-2008, 10:22 PM
Duncan over Dunn? Perhaps the price tag is a hinderance, but similar D with better O, I'd sure rather have Dunn. And I certainly don't think Schumacher is a long-term corner OF solution.

Glaus, Ankiel, Pujols, and Ludwick are probably the top 4 hitters in the NL this year.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 10:25 PM
It makes you wonder if Ankiel isn't giving Ludwick some of his juice. ;)