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View Full Version : Reds management fails once again



Benihana
08-12-2008, 11:09 AM
"It was one of those pleasant surprises. To come off the terrible month that we had in Cincinnati, and you get a phone call today saying you're being traded to a first-place team. As a player that's all you could ask for. I'll do whatever. If they want me to catch, I'll catch."
- Adam Dunn today on the trade and on what role he's willing to fill with Arizona

Ken Griffey Jr. batted seventh in his first game in a White Sox uniform.

So how come the Reds management could never get these guys to do that when they were here? Aren't the Reds the team that gave these guys their big money deals? Isn't that one of the biggest things we're paying Dusty for- to be the "people" guy to convince the players (especially the veterans) to do what's in the best interest of the team?

Not saying we would be a sure-fire playoff team, but if Dunn could have been moved to 1B and Griffey dropped down to 7th in the order, things could have been a lot better for this franchise in the last couple years.

princeton
08-12-2008, 11:12 AM
it's a very human reaction.

I know that I've worked in places where I'd just better be treated with the respect that I've earned because the rest of those guys were losers

but I'd freely trade all of that to do menial work in a place where people actually know what they're doing.

Benihana
08-12-2008, 11:15 AM
it's a very human reaction.

I know that I've worked in places where I'd just better be treated with the respect that I've earned because the rest of those guys were losers

but I'd freely trade all of that to do menial work in a place where people actually know what they're doing.

I don't disagree, but it's yet another very serious indictment on Reds management in general, and Dusty Baker specifically.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 11:24 AM
I think Jr would've batted whereever he was told.

Wasn't it published though that Dunn had no interest in playing 1b for the Reds, and that was part of the negotation of his last extension?
Maybe now that Dunn is on a winning team, he's more flexible. Or maybe Dunn wants to be more marketable as a free agent, so he's not going to complain if he's asked to play RF or 1b. He'd be pretty stupid to say something like "well, I'm not going to be happy if I'm not in LF", even if that was true.

HokieRed
08-12-2008, 11:28 AM
Do you really want your right fielder batting 7th? Do good teams have right fielders batting 7th?

Kc61
08-12-2008, 11:29 AM
I don't disagree, but it's yet another very serious indictment on Reds management in general, and Dusty Baker specifically.


First off, the reports of Dunn's desire to play only left field (if true) came years ago, before Dusty Baker was ever a Red. So, if it's true, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Baker.

Secondly, this year the Reds had Joey Votto at first, so there wouldn't have been a call for Dunn to play first base. (I guess Dunn could have been asked to play shortstop when Kepp had his injury, but they didn't think of it.)

Third -- and this is the main point -- if Dunn did refuse to play other positions it is not an "indictment" of Reds management. If true, it is Dunn who should be criticized.

And fourth -- almost every player when he moves to a contender in late season says "I'll play anywhere, do anything." You can't move to a contender in August and expect your exact status to be maintained with the new team. We'll see if Dunn is open to new positions when he negotiates as a free agent.

Benihana
08-12-2008, 11:31 AM
First off, the reports of Dunn's desire to play only left field (if true) came years ago, before Dusty Baker was ever a Red. So, if it's true, it has nothing whatsoever to do with Baker.

Secondly, this year the Reds had Joey Votto at first, so there wouldn't have been a call for Dunn to play first base. (I guess Dunn could have been asked to play shortstop when Kepp had his injury, but they didn't think of it.)

Third -- and this is the main point -- if Dunn did refuse to play other positions it is not an "indictment" on Reds management. If true, it is Dunn who should be criticized.

And fourth -- almost every player when he moves to a contender in late season says "I'll play anywhere, do anything." You can't move to a contender in August and expect your exact status to be maintained with the new team. We'll see if Dunn is open to new positions when he negotiates as a free agent.

Great, how do you explain Dusty penciling Jr. in the 3 spot every single day, when everyone else in the world- including Ozzie Guillen- knows that there's no chance he should ever bat higher than 7th at this point? Furthermore, I don't care what a guy says he will or won't do, it is literally the manager's job to convince him to do what's best for the team. It's one thing if a guy is a stubborn malcontent like Gary Sheffield, but Jr. and Dunn both were perfectly willing to embrace new roles as soon as they left the Reds, and like it or not, that IS an indictment on Dusty Baker.

edabbs44
08-12-2008, 11:35 AM
Great, how do you explain Dusty penciling Jr. in the 3 spot every single day, when everyone else in the world- including Ozzie Guillen- knows that there's no chance he should ever bat higher than 7th at this point? Furthermore, I don't care what a guy says he will or won't do, it is literally the manager's job to convince him to do what's best for the team. It's one thing if a guy is a stubborn malcontent like Gary Sheffield, but Jr. and Dunn both were perfectly willing to embrace new roles as soon as they left the Reds, and like it or not, that IS an indictment on Dusty Baker.

I wouldn't lay it all on Dusty, though he should get a piece of the blame. It took management a while to get him out of CF and Dusty wasn't anywhere near Ohio.

And by the way...maybe Ozzie is smart enough to bat him 7th, but he is also dumb enough to play him in CF.

Kc61
08-12-2008, 11:37 AM
Great, how do you explain Dusty penciling Jr. in the 3 spot every single day, when everyone else in the world- including Ozzie Guillen- knows that there's no chance he should ever bat higher than 7th at this point?

So now we're back to the batting order. How soon we change topics around here. Maybe we should next focus on Dusty's use of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Or perhaps his use of toothpicks.

If, in fact, Adam Dunn refused to play other positions that's on Adam Dunn. Not Reds management. Or Dusty Baker or Jerry Narron.

By the way, Dusty has been here one year. What position should Adam Dunn have played this year? He was in the correct position if you ask me.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 11:50 AM
So now we're back to the batting order. How soon we change topics around here. Maybe we should next focus on Dusty's use of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Or perhaps his use of toothpicks.

Uhh, that was part of the topic. Junior hitting 7th in Chicago. Re-read his first post in this thread.

Kc61
08-12-2008, 12:00 PM
Uhh, that was part of the topic. Junior hitting 7th in Chicago. Re-read his first post in this thread.

On Griffey, the premise of your post is that he insisted on hitting third and the Reds didn't push him out of that slot. I don't know if that's what happened. But if so, I mostly blame the player making the demand -- not the team. And, again, you can't compare the situation of joining a new, contending team in August -- a player can't make demands in such a case.

In terms of Baker, remember that he hit Adam Dunn seventh when he thought it was the right thing to do. We may not agree with the judgment. But he did show the backbone to move Dunn down in the lineup.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 12:08 PM
I think Jr would've batted whereever he was told.

Wasn't it published though that Dunn had no interest in playing 1b for the Reds, and that was part of the negotation of his last extension?
Maybe now that Dunn is on a winning team, he's more flexible. Or maybe Dunn wants to be more marketable as a free agent, so he's not going to complain if he's asked to play RF or 1b. He'd be pretty stupid to say something like "well, I'm not going to be happy if I'm not in LF", even if that was true.

I'm late to the conversation, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Dunn expressed some hesitation, displeasure or even said something like "I don't think 1st would be my best position" and suddenly the Cincinnati media has it that he refused to move.

Look how Walt's statement saying he prefers not to negotiate during the season was made into gospel saying he never does that. It wasn't what he said and it wasn't what he's done in the past, but it became written in stone.

As for where to bat Griffey. I doubt he was ever asked. I'll lay that one at Dusty's feet. It was a mistake and it hurt us throughout the season.

But I was never completely sold that Dunn wouldn't move. I think WK decided that we were better served keeping Dunn in LF and bringing in Scott Hatteberg to play first. It wasn't a bad move for that season, or really for the next. By then Votto was ready and that's how it's played out.

BCubb2003
08-12-2008, 12:10 PM
I kind of like the idea of Dunn catching, though. If only we had known.

nate
08-12-2008, 12:10 PM
I kind of like the idea of Dunn catching, though. If only we had known.

Didn't Freel say he could catch in an emergency?

traderumor
08-12-2008, 04:12 PM
I understand Arizona is in first place and all, but only by virtue of the division they play in. I know it will be dynamic to play in a playoff atmosphere, but you get the sense both from his and RZ comments that Dunn is going to a great team, when really he is just enjoying the fruits of fate with an otherwise mediocre team. At least that part of the terrain is charted territory for him.

SunDeck
08-12-2008, 04:23 PM
Jr. agrees to bat 7th because Ozzie may shoot one of his kids if he doesn't.

WVRedsFan
08-12-2008, 04:34 PM
Batting 7th hasn't been very good to Junior. He's 5-24 (.208).

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 05:53 PM
, but Jr. and Dunn both were perfectly willing to embrace new roles as soon as they left the Reds, and like it or not, that IS an indictment on Dusty Baker.

A good argument could be made to bat Dunn 2nd or 3rd.
However, I can't see Jr batting 7th on this team. Too many bad hitters, even though Jr is no longer a superstar.

Batting Dunn #3 in the batting order, and batting Jr 5th or 6th, wouldn't have really made a difference. We're still a last place team.

RFS62
08-12-2008, 06:55 PM
Jr. agrees to bat 7th because Ozzie may shoot one of his kids if he doesn't.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: