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View Full Version : Grade the Dunn Trade, assuming...



Benihana
08-12-2008, 12:16 PM
the PTBNLs are Micah Owings and Josh Whitesell, as is rumored.

princeton
08-12-2008, 12:32 PM
why don't we wait until trade is finalized

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 12:33 PM
Nothing quite like a hypothetical poll. I agree with Princeton, this is premature

Will M
08-12-2008, 12:39 PM
Nothing quite like a hypothetical poll. I agree with Princeton, this is premature

its more fun than 1100 posts on the trade itself

flyer85
08-12-2008, 12:39 PM
the PTBNLs are Micah Owings and Josh Whitesell, as is rumored.might as well wait until we know ...

princeton
08-12-2008, 01:04 PM
shall we also grade the Jay Bruce trade, five years ahead of time?

dougdirt
08-12-2008, 01:09 PM
B. Saves money both now and next year and we weren't bringing Dunn back next year (and regardless of what we think they should have done in that case, it wasn't happening). So Dunn for two guys that could probably help next year and Buck is better than Dunn for a month and a half and 2 draft picks + about 5.5 million bucks spent paying Dunn and the draft picks between this and next year.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 01:14 PM
shall we also grade the Jay Bruce trade, five years ahead of time?

I'll give it a shot. I say it's a win. We get tremendous payflex, and the prospects we're rumored to get in return from _________ will do well for the ongoing rebuild. If they're able to re-attach Volquez's arm, we may be able to compete for a winning record.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:42 PM
I voted "B", but I think if you take the circumstances into account, it could easily be argued to be an "A" if that return is true.

I guess I just voted a "B" because it doesn't really knock my socks off. But that is a very good return for 6 weeks of a guy that has a limited no trade clause.

indy_dave00
08-12-2008, 03:52 PM
If its Buck, Whitesell and Owings for Dunn , I'm not excited.

A 24 year old pitcher in A ball coming off TJ surgery , a 26 year old 1st sacker putting up decent numbers in hitter friendly PCL AND a pitcher with a near 6 era and better known for his hitting is hardly promising.

Will be interesting to see if that even ends up being the final trade.

dougdirt
08-12-2008, 04:10 PM
If its Buck, Whitesell and Owings for Dunn , I'm not excited.

A 24 year old pitcher in A ball coming off TJ surgery , a 26 year old 1st sacker putting up decent numbers in hitter friendly PCL AND a pitcher with a near 6 era and better known for his hitting is hardly promising.

Will be interesting to see if that even ends up being the final trade.

Then I have to ask, what kind of return did you expect for 1.5 months of Adam Dunn?

registerthis
08-12-2008, 04:24 PM
I didn't vote, because I don't quite see the point in voting on something like this until we know what the return is.

However my own personal feelings, regardless of the return, is that it is unfortunate that the Reds couldn't find a way to keep such a talented and productive player in the fold. Using that criteria alone, I'd rate the trade as "unsatisfactory".

indy_dave00
08-12-2008, 04:33 PM
I'd hoped to re-sign him. Short of that I hoped for at least one top 5 prospect , a journeyman outfielder and Buck as the toss in. As it is now I'll be surprised if even Owings is included.

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 05:46 PM
However my own personal feelings, regardless of the return, is that it is unfortunate that the Reds couldn't find a way to keep such a talented and productive player in the fold. Using that criteria alone, I'd rate the trade as "unsatisfactory".


That's why baseball is not as much fun to follow as it once was. Blame the uneven economic playing field. The Reds can't afford Dunn like the Cubs and others can. We're forced to do it the Twins/A's way. It's a different set of rules. The Cubs can sign a Fukadome and a Soriano and we sign a Jerry Hairston Jr. If we do splurge on a Dunn or a Cordero then we don't have any money left for a CF, C or 3B. If we had signed Dunn like you'd asked we would have had precious little jack left to fill the numerous holes on this team. We know with Dunn and a lot of holes, we're a last place team. WJ is betting that sans Dunn and we fill several holes with that $15mill be can be competitive.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 05:49 PM
That's why baseball is not as much fun to follow as it once was. Blame the uneven economic playing field. The Reds can't afford Dunn like the Cubs and others can. We're forced to do it the Twins/A's way. It's a different set of rules. The Cubs can sign a Fukadome and a Soriano and we sign a Jerry Hairston Jr. If we do splurge on a Dunn or a Cordero then we don't have any money left for a CF, C or 3B. If we had signed Dunn like you'd asked we would have had precious little jack left to fill the numerous holes on this team. We know with Dunn and a lot of holes, we're a last place team. WJ is betting that sans Dunn and we fill several holes with that $15mill be can be competitive.

The Cubs way could just as easily be called the Mariners way or the Giants way. The Twins are winning their division and the A's have scored more runs than they've allowed despite it being a clear rebuilding year. The Marlins and Mets have virtually the same record even though the Mets have outspent them by $110,000,000 on payroll this year. The Rays have the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball -- and the best record. Money helps, but it isn't fate. At the end of the day, well run organizations can and do compete; Poorly run organizations don't.

You're right Sea Ray; We are forced to do it the Twins/A's way. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. To me, the only thing to judge is 3 prospects versus 2 picks. The non-extension is a different question, one which had apparently long since been answered by Jocketty. Just as important as the guys we get back in this trade is how Jocketty goes about filling the hole. In St. Louis he extended his Dunn (Rolen, Edmonds). Can he do it the Twins/A's way and trade for and/or develop Dunn's replacement?

Sea Ray
08-12-2008, 06:24 PM
You're right Sea Ray; We are forced to do it the Twins/A's way. I'm not sure that's such a bad thing. To me, the only thing to judge is 3 prospects versus 2 picks. The non-extension is a different question, one which had apparently long since been answered by Jocketty. Just as important as the guys we get back in this trade is how Jocketty goes about filling the hole. In St. Louis he extended his Dunn (Rolen, Edmonds). Can he do it the Twins/A's way and trade for and/or develop Dunn's replacement?

I agree with you, Rick. My point is that we as Reds fans have to face the fact that we have to do it without guys like Dunn. You won't see the A's, Twins or Marlins announcing an Adam Dunn signing this fall. I think this makes it harder to build a fan base. You'll rarely get a guy like Robin Yount, Barry Larkin or Kirby Puckett for their entire careers anymore whereas the Yankees can keep their homegrown stars like Jeter and Rivera. My advice to young Reds fans: don't fall in love with a player here 'cause he'll not be here for long. Get away from having favorite players.

top6
08-12-2008, 06:35 PM
I think it's funny how many people are concerned about this poll being premature. Because, my God, if an internet message board poll turned out not to accurately reflect the trade, the consequences would be severe. Someone might even have to post another poll.

Reds1
08-12-2008, 06:55 PM
Maybe they have a secret pack to sign dunn as a FA. Get the prospects and then sign him back! also Kent Merker - I think we did that. I don't see it happening as he's going to want big money, but wouldn't that be interesting.

Benihana
08-14-2008, 07:18 PM
OK, now it sounds like it's offical. Grade the trade assuming the PTBNL are Owings and Castillo, instead of Whitesell.

FWIW, I give it a C. I like Owings, but I think I would have rather had the picks.

RedlegJake
08-14-2008, 07:23 PM
I gave it a B, almost an A. I really like Owings, much, much better than a draft pick. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could want a draft pick over Micah Owings.

Buck and Castillo are even with draft picks in my mind. Much cheaper than signing picks with as much or almost as much upside as a sandwhich or 2nd round pick.

If Dunn had to be traded then the Reds did a good job with this package.

Blitz Dorsey
08-14-2008, 07:50 PM
I voted B. And honestly, one could make a very good argument for A simply because the Reds were not going to get anything better than Owings, Castillo and Buck (if that's really the return) in exchange for a 1.5-month rental of Adam Dunn (plus draft picks if said team didn't re-sign him). Seriously, ask yourself if you honestly think the Reds could have got more than that. And if you answer yes, keep asking yourself until you find the right answer.

Is this a GREAT return for Adam Dunn? No, I don't think so. But it's probably as good as the Reds could have done, and for that they get a solid B+ from me.

Rojo
08-14-2008, 07:52 PM
The Twins are winning their division and the A's have scored more runs than they've allowed despite it being a clear rebuilding year. The Rays have the 2nd lowest payroll in baseball -- and the best record. Money helps, but it isn't fate.

Can't buy me glove.

Blitz Dorsey
08-14-2008, 07:59 PM
That's why baseball is not as much fun to follow as it once was. Blame the uneven economic playing field. The Reds can't afford Dunn like the Cubs and others can. We're forced to do it the Twins/A's way. It's a different set of rules. The Cubs can sign a Fukadome and a Soriano and we sign a Jerry Hairston Jr. If we do splurge on a Dunn or a Cordero then we don't have any money left for a CF, C or 3B. If we had signed Dunn like you'd asked we would have had precious little jack left to fill the numerous holes on this team. We know with Dunn and a lot of holes, we're a last place team. WJ is betting that sans Dunn and we fill several holes with that $15mill be can be competitive.

And for this very reason, I wouldn't mind if we missed an entire season of MLB one day for them to get it right. Not that the NFL is perfect (not even close) but MLB needs a similar system or teams like the Reds are fighting an uphill battle. That's fine, just don't give me this crap about parity. Yes, there will be one 2007 Colorado Rockies every year, but there will also be the same 5-6 big-market teams also in the hunt every year (Red Sox, Yankees, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets, Angels, etc.). Might not get there, but they are in the hunt every year.

Sounds crazy to say I would miss an entire season of the sport I love, but it would be well worth it for them to just shut it down and not start it back up until they had a legitimate system. And really, 1994 was a lost season since the WS was not played (and the Reds were in first-place by a half-game when the strike hit Aug. 12 if I remember correctly... broke my heart). So, it wouldn't be the first time this happened (and it wouldn't even be the second including war time -- series was not played one or two years during WWI). It would be well worth it. I am sick of losing all our good players and watching them sign elsewhere like it's nothing. The Cubs can sign a mediocre player at best like Fukudome for 4-years, $48 mil and they don't even feel the hit. Zambrano wants a big deal or he is going to throw a fit? Just give it to him? Need to overpay to improve the offense? Here's Soriano. Dodgers sign a scrub like A.Jones for 2-years, $32 million, worst signing of the offseason in MLB. No biggie, just go out and get someone named Manny Ramirez and call it a day. Dodgers need pitching, they give a big deal to Jason Schmidt last year that would have crippled most teams. What do they do? Go right back out this offseason and overpay for Kuroda. Doesn't matter at all. There needs to be a salary cap and there needs to be a lot more revenue sharing than we are currently seeing.

paintmered
08-14-2008, 08:14 PM
Because the trade scenario is no longer correct, I closed the poll.