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Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Today the Reds recalled from Class AAA Louisville OF Chris Dickerson (#21) to fill the roster spot vacated by OF Adam Dunn, who yesterday was traded to the Diamondbacks, along with cash, in exchange for minor league RHP Dallas Buck and 2 players to be named later.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 01:14 PM
Good move. I'm glad to see him finally get a chance. Hopefully he plays center field everyday. Dickerson hit .287/.384/.479 in Louisville including a .300/.397/.527 mark against right handed pitchers.

nate
08-12-2008, 01:15 PM
Yup. Time to see what he can do with the big club.

Hopefully, Corey Patterson doesn't give him any "tips."

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 01:17 PM
It will be interesting to see what they do defensively. I'm hoping Dickerson plays CF and starts everyday. Patterson and Cabrera platoon until Hairston is back. Patterson in RF and Bruce in LF against righties. Bruce in RF, Cabrera in LF against lefties.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 01:20 PM
It will be interesting to see what they do defensively. I'm hoping Dickerson plays CF and starts everyday. Patterson and Cabrera platoon until Hairston is back. Patterson in RF and Bruce in LF against righties. Bruce in RF, Cabrera in LF against lefties.

Why move Bruce around? I'm hoping they can Bruce in RF from here on out to let him get comfortable out there. I'd play Dickerson in CF because his range is supposedly top notch and he's got a better arm than Patterson.

OldXOhio
08-12-2008, 01:21 PM
It will be interesting to see what they do defensively. I'm hoping Dickerson plays CF and starts everyday. Patterson and Cabrera platoon until Hairston is back. Patterson in RF and Bruce in LF against righties. Bruce in RF, Cabrera in LF against lefties.

Also don't forget that there may be an AZ position player who figures into this mix....or forces an existing Reds player out of the IF.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 01:22 PM
I hope Hairston gets enough AB's from here on out to show what he really is (nothing special).

Patterson needs to go bye bye. Even with the loss of Dunn and depth in the OF, we simply don't need him. He is in the way.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 01:24 PM
Why move Bruce around? I'm hoping they can Bruce in RF from here on out to let him get comfortable out there. I'd play Dickerson in CF because his range is supposedly top notch and he's got a better arm than Patterson.

I guess I wasn't clear. I'd actually prefer Bruce stay in RF for the reasons you've cited, but I think we'll probably see him pushed to LF when both Dickerson and Patterson are playing.

wolfboy
08-12-2008, 01:29 PM
I'll be rooting hard for Dickerson. Good to see him get a chance.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 01:31 PM
I hope Hairston gets enough AB's from here on out to show what he really is (nothing special).Walt has shown the ability in the past to recognize what a player is, and when they are having a career season. He let Tony Womack walk after his career season with the Cards(he signed with the Yanks before being traded to the Reds after a year).

Big Klu
08-12-2008, 01:33 PM
I was hoping that Dickerson would get #29, since he's Eric Dickerson's cousin, but the Reds issued that number to Hanigan on Sunday.


I would start him in CF, and leave Bruce in RF. Patterson and Cabrera can platoon in LF until Hairston is ready, and then Jerry Jr. can take over in LF. Against tough lefties, the Reds can give Dickerson a day off by moving Hairston to CF and starting Cabrera in LF.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 01:33 PM
Walt has shown the ability in the past to recognize what a player is, and when they are having a career season. He let Tony Womack walk after his career season with the Cards(he signed with the Yanks before being traded to the Reds after a year).

Let's just hope that Walt isn't influenced by Marty and the banana-phone caller's who feel Hairston is the second coming.

I'm tired of watching this re-run.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 01:36 PM
Let's just hope that Walt isn't influenced by Marty and the banana-phone caller's who feel Hairston is the second coming.

I'm tired of watching this re-run.Wayne would have already signed him to a 2 year extension.

Will M
08-12-2008, 01:37 PM
Good move. I'm glad to see him finally get a chance. Hopefully he plays center field everyday. Dickerson hit .287/.384/.479 in Louisville including a .300/.397/.527 mark against right handed pitchers.

his big OPS vs rhp in AAA gives me hope than he could at least be part of a CF platoon ( rather than a 5th outfielder or AAAA player ).

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 01:39 PM
According to BP, Hairston will be ready to go tonight. Let's hope we see a Hairston-Dickerson-Bruce OF from left to right.

I want Hairston to play if for no other reason than so he can regress and dull the shine which might lead to an ill-advised contract and unnecessary roster confusion next spring.

Chip R
08-12-2008, 01:39 PM
Let's just hope that Walt isn't influenced by Marty and the banana-phone caller's who feel Hairston is the second coming.



I think there are folks out there who aren't as enamored with Hariston as they were a couple of months ago because of his injuries.

Will M
08-12-2008, 01:43 PM
I think there are folks out there who aren't as enamored with Hariston as they were a couple of months ago because of his injuries.

well duh! :)

I really like Hairston. How can you not like a 32 year old who doesn't quit and then comes back to have success in the bigs?

However, i certainly don't want the Reds to give him some fat contract this offseason. One problem with Hairston is that we owe Freel for next year. Plus we also have Kep who is a cheap utility guy who hits lefties well.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 01:44 PM
PECOTA, which was run prior to this season, had Dickerson at a .243/.323/.413 weighted mean projection with .275/.360/.482 90th percentile upside. It has his defense as slightly below average, which is probably underselling him. His weighted mean comes out to a 3 to 3.5 win player. A decent comp for his immediate production would be Chris Young in Arizona.

Considering that he really has put it together in AAA, I think expecting something like .255/.340/.440 isn't unreasonable -- and if he can do that, he's hands down the answer in CF moving forward.

Homer Bailey
08-12-2008, 01:55 PM
According to BP, Hairston will be ready to go tonight. Let's hope we see a Hairston-Dickerson-Bruce OF from left to right.

I want Hairston to play if for no other reason than so he can regress and dull the shine which might lead to an ill-advised contract and unnecessary roster confusion next spring.


Is that what we've come to?

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 01:57 PM
Is that what we've come to?

I think Chris Dickerson provides more value than Ken Griffey Jr. So basically we're talking about swapping out Dunn for the best available replacement. The offense is in trouble, no doubt. But it will be interesting to see the impact of a very good, if not great defense OF.

nate
08-12-2008, 01:58 PM
Yeah, at the very least, that will be one sweet defense in the outfield.

RedlegJake
08-12-2008, 02:16 PM
I look at it this way - if we can convince Freel and Hairston to get hurt at seperate times the Reds would have a great 4th outfielder. I'll bet we have this two-crutched monster still around next season.

Hopefully Dickerson gets most starts in CF to get a good look at him going forward. If he can stay north of a .750 OPS, even in a platoon role it would be a huge help. Can we just say goodbye to Corey now?

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:31 PM
Why move Bruce around? I'm hoping they can Bruce in RF from here on out to let him get comfortable out there. I'd play Dickerson in CF because his range is supposedly top notch and he's got a better arm than Patterson.

I agree with that. Put Bruce in RF and leave him there the rest of the year. No point in jerking Bruce around, even if he ends up in CF next year. Let him finish out the year in a comfortable situation.

I'm not so sure what to do with Patterson and Dickerson. If the Reds think that Dickerson is a legit prospect, then it makes sense to put him in CF.
However, if Walt thinks Dickerson is only roster filler, then it makes sense to keep Patterson in CF and put Dickerson in the LF rotating door. But it doesn't make a huge difference either way, because I suspect neither Patterson nor Dickerson is part of Walt's long term plan.

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:33 PM
I hope Hairston gets enough AB's from here on out to show what he really is (nothing special).

Patterson needs to go bye bye. Even with the loss of Dunn and depth in the OF, we simply don't need him. He is in the way.

I disagree with this. We are paper thin on position players.

Who is Patterson blocking? Now that Dickerson is here, I'm not sure there's a valid argument for that. (IMO, Dickerson wasn't a strong argument to DFA Patterson).

I am not worshiping Patterson by any means, but he's much like Fogg. He is a body we can use, and we are paying him regardless, so there's no point in DFAing him.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 02:47 PM
I disagree with this. We are paper thin on position players.

Who is Patterson blocking? Now that Dickerson is here, I'm not sure there's a valid argument for that. (IMO, Dickerson wasn't a strong argument to DFA Patterson).

I am not worshiping Patterson by any means, but he's much like Fogg. He is a body we can use, and we are paying him regardless, so there's no point in DFAing him.

If Hairston is back Patterson would be blocking Dickerson or Hairston.

paulrichjr
08-12-2008, 02:49 PM
According to BP, Hairston will be ready to go tonight. Let's hope we see a Hairston-Dickerson-Bruce OF from left to right.

I want Hairston to play if for no other reason than so he can regress and dull the shine which might lead to an ill-advised contract and unnecessary roster confusion next spring.


Yea we can't have that huge list of outfielders be blocked by Hairston. :D JK

REDREAD
08-12-2008, 02:50 PM
If Hairston is back Patterson would be blocking Dickerson or Hairston.

We can bench Patterson. I'm fine with that.
Unless I am missing something, I don't think we are in a roster crunch.
But this wouldn't be the first time I missed something.. :)

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 02:59 PM
We can bench Patterson. I'm fine with that.



I don't trust Dusty to bench him.

RichRed
08-12-2008, 03:06 PM
I don't trust Dusty to bench him.

Me neither. Does Dusty have another daughter Dickerson can date?

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 03:29 PM
According to BP, Hairston will be ready to go tonight. Let's hope we see a Hairston-Dickerson-Bruce OF from left to right.

I want Hairston to play if for no other reason than so he can regress and dull the shine which might lead to an ill-advised contract and unnecessary roster confusion next spring.

There are some great things about RZ, many in fact. But this constant hoping a player will do poorly so we won't keep them around is beyond understanding. If the player's wearing a Reds uniform, I'm pulling for them to do the best they can. If Hairston tears it up between now and the end of the year, then great! I'm really tired of this dogging guys when they're playing well, whether it's a mirage or not. I'm not saying that we should make Hairston a starter for next season, but I'd be glad to have him on our bench and doing well when he's playing.

Boss-Hog
08-12-2008, 03:32 PM
There are some great things about RZ, many in fact. But this constant hoping a player will do poorly so we won't keep them around is beyond understanding. If the player's wearing a Reds uniform, I'm pulling for them to do the best they can. If Hairston tears it up between now and the end of the year, then great! I'm really tired of this dogging guys when they're playing well, whether it's a mirage or not. I'm not saying that we should make Hairston a starter for next season, but I'd be glad to have him on our bench and doing well when he's playing.
I agree.

Caveat Emperor
08-12-2008, 03:34 PM
Jocketty should sign Barry Bonds to finish out the last month of the season in LF.

At best, you get a future hall-of-famer suiting up every day for the Reds. At worst, you sell a crapload of outfield tickets as fans pack in to try and catch his last HR of the season (the "record setting" baseball), whenever it gets hit.

It's not like this team is going anywhere fast -- Bonds, Dickerson and Bruce in the OF would certainly give me a reason to pay money to see a last place team.

redsmetz
08-12-2008, 03:35 PM
I disagree with this. We are paper thin on position players.

Who is Patterson blocking? Now that Dickerson is here, I'm not sure there's a valid argument for that. (IMO, Dickerson wasn't a strong argument to DFA Patterson).

I am not worshiping Patterson by any means, but he's much like Fogg. He is a body we can use, and we are paying him regardless, so there's no point in DFAing him.

Given that we're two weeks or so away from expanding the rosters (three since Louisville will be in the post season), you're right. With the return of Hairston (if that's the fact), I suspect Patterson rides the bench for the most part from here on out.

Chip R
08-12-2008, 03:42 PM
I'm not saying that we should make Hairston a starter for next season, but I'd be glad to have him on our bench and doing well when he's playing.


The problem with that is that the Reds have too many of these type of players on the roster. Keppinger, Hopper, Freel, Hariston, Andy Phillips and Cabrera are all the same kind of player. They are useful for short periods of time but none of them give you any pop and all are suspect defensively. Hariston and Freel are notoriously injury prone. One or two of them on the bench are fine but the Reds should be in the business of winning games and not leading the league in scrappy.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 03:42 PM
There are some great things about RZ, many in fact. But this constant hoping a player will do poorly so we won't keep them around is beyond understanding. If the player's wearing a Reds uniform, I'm pulling for them to do the best they can. If Hairston tears it up between now and the end of the year, then great! I'm really tired of this dogging guys when they're playing well, whether it's a mirage or not. I'm not saying that we should make Hairston a starter for next season, but I'd be glad to have him on our bench and doing well when he's playing.

I'd be glad to have him on our bench too. Unfortunately, we've seen it happen too many times that a bench player puts together a good run and a team commits a starting position to him. The player eventually returns to his established level of performance and the team finds itself in need of a deserving starter.

I agree, it's unfortunate that I/we have to hope a player does poorly for the sake of a management team who may not be able to see past a lucky streak. I'd love it if Hairston could simply be an .875 OPS player moving forward; that would be wonderful. Unfortunately, that's a virtual impossibility. Not only would such a development be borderline miraculous, but we have evidence suggesting that the current performance is simply not sustainable on it's own merits, regardless of the underlying talent producing it. If Hairston putting up an .875 OPS in a meaningless season leads to a fiscal commitment which weakens the Reds in the future, I'll have to ask for your forgiveness.

The proper wish would be to have a management team who I felt could discern the mirage from the oasis. However, history suggests that is a pretty unreasonable expectation, forcing me to hope instead that the player makes his likely future as evident as possible giving the manner in which management tends to process available information. I'd be happy to have Hairston around as a utility guy in 2009. But I do not want him as a regular starter given a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract on the back of 300 strong PA which fly in the face of the 10 years and 2500 PA preceding it. If it requires a poor stretch of PA in the last months of the season to put us in better position beyond 2008, so be it.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 03:46 PM
The proper wish would be to have a management team who I felt could discern the mirage from the oasis. However, history suggests that is a pretty unreasonable expectationsomewhere WK is scratching his head.

reds44
08-12-2008, 03:55 PM
Hairston LF
Keppinger SS
Bruce RF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Encarnacion 3B
Dickerson CF
Hanigan C

is what i expect/realistically hope.

WebScorpion
08-12-2008, 04:01 PM
Me neither. Does Dusty have another daughter Dickerson can date?

Can we just have them switch jerseys?http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/gen136.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 04:02 PM
somewhere WK is scratching his head.

Krivsky excelled at finding diamonds in the rough -- he certainly like to search for them. He struggled with separating diamonds from cubic zirconium (e.g. Royce Clayton, Rheal Cormier, Mike Stanton). Is it wrong to want the light to shift to show off the known cubic zirconium named Jerry Hairston Jr as such?

Big Klu
08-12-2008, 04:26 PM
Hairston LF
Keppinger SS
Bruce RF
Phillips 2B
Votto 1B
Encarnacion 3B
Dickerson CF
Hanigan C

is what i expect/realistically hope.

I would prefer:

vs. RHP:
Hairston lf
Votto 1b
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Encarnacion 3b
Dickerson cf
Keppinger ss
Hanigan c
<pitcher>

vs. LHP:
Hairston lf
Votto 1b
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Encarnacion 3b
Keppinger ss
Hanigan c
Dickerson cf
<pitcher>

vs. Tough LHP
Hairston cf
Keppinger ss
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Encarnacion 3b
Votto 1b
Cabrera lf
Hanigan c
<pitcher>


With Votto still out, I figure tonight's lineup against Karstens will be:

Hairston lf
Keppinger ss
Bruce rf
Phillips 2b
Encarnacion 3b
Valentin 1b
Dickerson cf
Bako c
Volquez p

*BaseClogger*
08-12-2008, 04:26 PM
Once September rolls around put Kepp in LF and call up Janish when rosters expand to play SS...

westofyou
08-12-2008, 04:27 PM
There are some great things about RZ, many in fact. But this constant hoping a player will do poorly so we won't keep them around is beyond understanding.

IMO it's an attempt to fight off the possibility that outliers can change the way the game is viewed.

The game is magical because of outliers as much as it is for the tried and true. It's played by people who fail more than they succeed, and wishing for failure only is wishing for something that is most likely to occur anyway, thus I'll wish for success and hope that the karma I receive for that action is better than the one I'd get hoping a guy fails doing something I'd love to do.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 04:29 PM
I personally would like to see Rosales get some starts at shortstop over Keppinger. His range couldn't be any worse than Kepp's and I'd like to see how well he can handle major league pitching at this point.

lollipopcurve
08-12-2008, 04:33 PM
IMO it's an attempt to fight off the possibility that outliers can change the way the game is viewed.

The game is magical because of outliers as much as it is for the tried and true. It's played by people who fail more than they succeed, and wishing for failure only is wishing for something that is most likely to occur anyway, thus I'll wish for success and hope that the karma I receive for that action is better than the one I'd get hoping a guy fails doing something I'd love to do.

Amen. Best post I've seen in awhile.

puca
08-12-2008, 04:47 PM
I personally would like to see Rosales get some starts at shortstop over Keppinger. His range couldn't be any worse than Kepp's and I'd like to see how well he can handle major league pitching at this point.

I'd personally like to see how the Reds pitching staff performs with a real defense behind them. No more range impaired shortstops thank you.

flyer85
08-12-2008, 04:53 PM
I'd personally like to see how the Reds pitching staff performs with a real defense behind them. No more range impaired shortstops thank you.looked at the DRS numbers from BBTF. Reds have far away the worst defensive left side of the infield in the NL.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 04:57 PM
I'd personally like to see how the Reds pitching staff performs with a real defense behind them. No more range impaired shortstops thank you.

Oh I agree, nothing would please me more than to see the Reds acquire a real shortstop but that probably won't happen until the offseason.

osuceltic
08-12-2008, 04:57 PM
looked at the DRS numbers from BBTF. Reds have far away the worst defensive left side of the infield in the NL.

You didn't need stats to tell you that, did you?

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:00 PM
You didn't need stats to tell you that, did you?yes. Otherwise it's just my opinion, which isn't worth much. BTW, almost every metric I have seen rates them poorly.

"In God we trust, all others must have data"

"Your eyes will deceive you, don't trust them"

puca
08-12-2008, 05:20 PM
Oh I agree, nothing would please me more than to see the Reds acquire a real shortstop but that probably won't happen until the offseason.

If nothing else they could promote Janish. They probably have to dump some 40-man roster filler that is currently on the active roster anyhow (A. Phillips/Cabrera/Valentin/Patterson/Majewski) to make room for the PTBNLs.

Janish was a bit shaky defensively the last time around, but he is still a major upgrade from Keppinger.

osuceltic
08-12-2008, 05:31 PM
yes. Otherwise it's just my opinion, which isn't worth much. BTW, almost every metric I have seen rates them poorly.

"In God we trust, all others must have data"

"Your eyes will deceive you, don't trust them"

Defense is one of those things you have to see. I haven't seen a statistical analysis yet that I trust to analyze defensive performance. And I have to imagine that anyone watching the Reds right now would agree that the left side of the infield is pretty lousy.

durl
08-12-2008, 05:36 PM
If nothing else they could promote Janish. They probably have to dump some 40-man roster filler that is currently on the active roster anyhow (A. Phillips/Cabrera/Valentin/Patterson/Majewski) to make room for the PTBNLs.

Janish was a bit shaky defensively the last time around, but he is still a major upgrade from Keppinger.

Does defense really make a difference now? I'm an optimistic kind of guy but the purpose for the rest of 2008 is to prepare guys for next year. Call Janish up and see what he can do.

I'm sure the players want to win as many games as possible this year but it's not about wins and losses now. They're done...sad to say.

There...I said it. :)

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:36 PM
Defense is one of those things you have to see. I haven't seen a statistical analysis yet that I trust to analyze defensive performance. And I have to imagine that anyone watching the Reds right now would agree that the left side of the infield is pretty lousy.which makes it anecdotal and a crapshoot.

IMHO, there are likely a number of teams who are investing in proprietary analysis to quantify defense. it is the great undiscovered country and if somebody has a good method of quantifying it could give them a leg up on the competition.

_Sir_Charles_
08-12-2008, 05:51 PM
Oh I agree, nothing would please me more than to see the Reds acquire a real shortstop but that probably won't happen until the offseason.

Well, I think it's fairly well known that I want to see Phillips get some quality time RIGHT NOW at short. Kepp fits in better at 2b and I definitely want to see some Rosales....but 3rd is the better fit than SS for Adam. That being said, I'd also like to see Votto or Edwin get some starts in the OF. If it's Votto, then get Edwin some starts at 1b. We've simply GOT to rearrange some of these guys based on their skill-sets. For example, Edwin's got great mobility/range and a great glove. His arm however...1B negates that. LF minimizes it somewhat. I know that some here will say that we'd be playing multiple players out of their normal positions. But I say that we'd be playing them in their more natural positions and we simply have to find out how they react to the move PRIOR to the offseason so Jocketty can better determine what he needs to fix the roster/lineup. I don't want him "hoping" that Edwin can play 1B, I want him to have some visual proof.

CTA513
08-12-2008, 05:52 PM
According to John Fays blog hes starting in left field tonight and hitting leadoff.

Matt700wlw
08-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Chris Dickerson lf

Jeff Keppinger ss

Jay Bruce cf

Brandon Phillips 2b

Javy Valentin 1b

Edwin Encarnacion 3b

Corey Patterson cf

Paul Bako c

Edinson Volquez p

flyer85
08-12-2008, 05:58 PM
Dusty's love child out there again.

that is a really bad lineup ... they'll probably score 10 runs tonight.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 06:02 PM
Javy Valentin. LOL

Never has a guy gotten more mileage out of 4 HR's than Javy's 4 PH HR's in 2006.

Shoot me.

Cyclone792
08-12-2008, 06:05 PM
The Reds lineup consists of:

Four bad hitters
A pitcher
A guy making his MLB debut

And three guys I feel sorry for since they'll take the blame when the crap, aka the four bad hitters, do not produce.

Doc. Scott
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
I dunno- we're facing a guy with a 0.00 ERA, so it was going to be impossible to score even with the Great Eight in there.

RedsManRick
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
EE 6th, behind Javy. Dusty. Doesn't. Get. It. Splitting the righties with an incompetent lefty doesn't accomplish a thing. Until and unless Keppinger turns it around, bat EE 2nd.

Cyclone792
08-12-2008, 06:08 PM
Javy Valentin. LOL

Never has a guy gotten more mileage out of 4 HR's than Javy's 4 PH HR's in 2006.

Shoot me.

Valentin is one of the more worthless players I've ever seen.

Which is why he's batting 5th and playing 1st base tonight.

Doc. Scott
08-12-2008, 06:10 PM
Valentin is one of the more worthless players I've ever seen.

Which is why he's batting 5th and playing 1st base tonight.


And also why I think he's in his home stretch as a Cincinnati Red. It just doesn't seem to be the way Jocketty rolls to have a switch-hitting catcher who can't switch-hit or catch taking up roster space. "Clutch" or no.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-12-2008, 06:13 PM
Valentin is one of the more worthless players I've ever seen.

Which is why he's batting 5th and playing 1st base tonight.

This is what the organization has been reduced to.

Seriously, it's a joke.

I'm embarrased to be a fan.

westofyou
08-12-2008, 06:13 PM
Javy is the reigning position player tenure wise in that dugout.

Stunning thought ain't it?

traderumor
08-12-2008, 06:13 PM
I hear jealousy that Javy has made a couple million dollars with a body like most of us have ;)

flyer85
08-12-2008, 06:17 PM
The Reds lineup consists of:

Four bad hitters
A pitcher
A guy making his MLB debut

And three guys I feel sorry for since they'll take the blame when the crap, aka the four bad hitters, do not produce.an entire lineup consisting of 6-7-8 hitters ... or worse.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 06:37 PM
What an incredibly bad lineup, again. Dusty continues to defy the odds. First of all, Dickerson should be playing center field to get comfortable out there in a new ballpark, plus his arm is stronger than Patterson's. Secondly, why start Valentin over Rosales? Valentin should be gone after this season, why not let Rosales gets some atbats to see if he can help this team next season? And I'd rather see Ryan Hanigan in there too.

Patrick Bateman
08-12-2008, 06:38 PM
EE 6th, behind Javy.

Did anyone else smack themselves on the forehead after they read this part of the line-up?

WVRedsFan
08-12-2008, 06:40 PM
It's hopeless against Karstens anyway, I guess. Might as well give the scrubs some playing time...

Just kidding. There is no hope.

KronoRed
08-12-2008, 06:42 PM
At least it wasn't just Dunn who got the Dusty treatment, he simply doesn't know which of his players is good and which is bad.

Ltlabner
08-12-2008, 07:14 PM
EE 6th, behind Javy. Dusty. Doesn't. Get. It. Splitting the righties with an incompetent lefty doesn't accomplish a thing. Until and unless Keppinger turns it around, bat EE 2nd.

Bat the more productive guy higher in the order?

Back-seat GM.

:p:

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 07:23 PM
Bat the more productive guy higher in the order?

Back-seat GM.

:p:

All of you guys are always bashing poor old Dusty, I just can't imagine why!! :) He's so..........

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 07:26 PM
What an incredibly bad lineup, again. Dusty continues to defy the odds. First of all, Dickerson should be playing center field to get comfortable out there in a new ballpark, plus his arm is stronger than Patterson's. Secondly, why start Valentin over Rosales? Valentin should be gone after this season, why not let Rosales gets some atbats to see if he can help this team next season? And I'd rather see Ryan Hanigan in there too.

Has Rosales had even one start since getting a call up to fill in ?

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 07:26 PM
Has Rosales had even one start since getting a call up to fill in ?

Nope. He's pinch hit twice.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 07:27 PM
EE 6th, behind Javy. Dusty. Doesn't. Get. It. Splitting the righties with an incompetent lefty doesn't accomplish a thing. Until and unless Keppinger turns it around, bat EE 2nd.

Does he have a three year or five year contract, it's been four now hasn't it?

Always Red
08-12-2008, 07:32 PM
All of you guys are always bashing poor old Dusty, I just can't imagine why!! :) He's so..........

so....;)....

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 07:33 PM
Nope. He's pinch hit twice.

I recall in the press some compliments regarding him from Baker, I am a bit surprised the man isn't getting a chance.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 07:36 PM
so....;)....

The more I see of him, the more he reminds me of Paris Hilton in the "simple life".

Always Red
08-12-2008, 07:38 PM
The more I see of him, the more he reminds me of Paris Hilton in the "simple life".

:D

redsfan30
08-12-2008, 08:23 PM
His first at bat was impressive...worked the count and drew a walk, stole a base and advanced to third on an error and scored on Phillips' bomb.

Not bad.

WebScorpion
08-12-2008, 08:58 PM
Don't look now, but the team is winning with that 'bad' lineup. Personally, I don't think it matters much what order you put them up there. Productive hitters are productive hitters. Now, over the course of a season, you would like your most productive hitters to come to the plate more often than your less productive hitters. But really, you're gambling that the guys at the top will be the most productive while they are at the top, not before you put them there. Playing the guy with the best historical stats at the top of the order is not necessarily the best move, it just has the best chance of succeeding. The bottom line is if Dusty can win with his 'bad' lineups, then he is right. Unfortunately, they keep losing, so Dusty is wrong. Realistically, they'd lose in any order you send them up there.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 09:00 PM
It's very early but Chris Dickerson's defense is very impressive. In the second inning LaRoche hit a ball that looked like a double off the bat but Dickerson tracked it down in left center with ease. He's also worked the count well in his two PA's and stolen a base.

OnBaseMachine
08-12-2008, 10:59 PM
Dickerson had an impressive debut tonight as he went 1-for-4 with a double, a walk, and a stolen base and also made some very nice plays in left field. I was very impressed with the amount of ground he can cover in the outfield. He also worked the count deep. I think he's got a chance to be an average to above average center fielder.

Spring~Fields
08-12-2008, 11:05 PM
Dickerson had an impressive debut tonight as he went 1-for-4 with a double, a walk, and a stolen base and also made some very nice plays in left field. I was very impressed with the amount of ground he can cover in the outfield. He also worked the count deep. I think he's got a chance to be an average to above average center fielder.

I thought that he played well.

redsfan30
08-12-2008, 11:12 PM
He was completely baffled by the breaking ball, but most young guys are.

I'd say he had a very, very nice debut.

Stormy
08-12-2008, 11:14 PM
Dickerson had an impressive debut tonight as he went 1-for-4 with a double, a walk, and a stolen base and also made some very nice plays in left field. I was very impressed with the amount of ground he can cover in the outfield. He also worked the count deep. I think he's got a chance to be an average to above average center fielder.

This team could likely afford to start a guy like Dickerson in CF next year, IF they landed a complete RHH supernatural masher LF during the off-season. I like many of Dickerson's attributes, and hope his plate discipline continues to grow, but we have to acquire a major RHH power source in order to make him viable, most likely.

A lot of growing to do, but I like what I've seen, and I like the strides he's made at AAA this year. He's already lightyears ahead of Patterson (who isn't?) for cents on the dollar.

traderumor
08-12-2008, 11:38 PM
Valentin is one of the more worthless players I've ever seen.

Which is why he's batting 5th and playing 1st base tonight.I thought of this and chuckled the way things played out tonight. A homer and nice play to keep the game from getting a lot closer with the bases loaded. Sort of like when folks use to make such comments about Castro and then he'd go out and have a good game. :cool:

OnBaseMachine
08-13-2008, 01:41 AM
Dickerson gets chance in big leagues
Talented outfielder debuts, will play left field in Cincinnati
By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

PITTSBURGH -- Chris Dickerson's bags weren't even unpacked yet on Tuesday, but he noticed that his Major League debut was imminent.

The lineup sheet had Dickerson leading off for the Reds and playing left field against the Pirates.

"I'm right into the fire tonight," Dickerson said.

"Well, he came here to play," Reds manager Dusty Baker said of the decision to get Dickerson in right away.

The Reds called up Dickerson from Triple-A Louisville to take the roster spot vacated when Adam Dunn was traded. Dickerson walked during his first plate appearance.

As the Bats' homestand was finishing on Monday, manager Rick Sweet informed Dickerson he was getting his first big league promotion.

"It's an indescribable feeling," Dickerson said. "I literally had no words, no thoughts going through my head -- just, 'Holy cow!' It didn't start sinking in until he told me to go home and start packing. When I started looking at all my stuff and actually packed my bags, my heart started to race a little bit."

In 97 games for Louisville this season, the 26-year-old Dickerson batted .287 with 11 home runs and 53 RBIs with 26 stolen bases. He also owned a .384 on-base percentage.

Baker had the benefit of watching Dickerson play during Spring Training and was impressed with what he saw.

"There are a few things most young guys have to work on," Baker said. "It looked like he's improved quite a bit, especially with his bat. You can tell there is some improvement left to do, like most guys. He is better than he was last year."

Although not known for his offensive prowess as he moved through the system, Dickerson has been surging lately. Over his previous seven games, he was 14-for-31 (.419) with six RBIs. He credited Louisville hitting coach Adrian "Smokey" Garrett.

"I kind of modeled my swing after Jay [Bruce] a little bit," Dickerson said. "I got more upright and got my hands up and batted in a vertical position, which allowed me stay up on top of the ball. From there, I started to see huge improvements and the ball started jumping and getting a lot more backspin instead of topspin."

Dickerson was a 16th-round pick by the Reds in the 2003 Draft and was rated by Baseball America in 2007 as the organization's fastest baserunner and best athlete.

Dickerson has played primarily center field during his career, but is in left field for now, as Corey Patterson is in center field.

"The past couple of years, it's been really emphasized to move around and take balls from different positions," Dickerson said. "I've played left quite a bit when Jay was here. We rotated and got our fair share of experience. I should be fine. It's not my favorite position in the world -- I don't think it's any outfielder's favorite position -- but I'll be fine. I've done a lot of work and got a lot better the past year or so."

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080812&content_id=3295731&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

AmarilloRed
08-13-2008, 01:53 AM
I remember before the season there were very few who ever considered Dickerson could become a starting outfielder; primarily because of the strikeouts. I hope he makes the most of his opportunities this season, and starts next year as the Red's starting CF.

Spring~Fields
08-13-2008, 10:03 AM
Dickerson had an impressive debut tonight as he went 1-for-4 with a double, a walk, and a stolen base and also made some very nice plays in left field. I was very impressed with the amount of ground he can cover in the outfield. He also worked the count deep. I think he's got a chance to be an average to above average center fielder.

With the major league pitching and defense in top season form compared to what players face in spring training, the 42 remaining games can be a good opportunity for the Reds to have some questions answered, answers that can contribute in making decisions about several of these players and to give them additional experience, that might also add value or to support that the Reds will have to look elsewhere.

Questions, For example:
If given ample playing time in the field and AB/PA at the plate, can any or all of these three make solid contributions at the major league level?
Chris Dickerson
Ryan Hanigan
Adam Rosales

Can any of these three play multiple positions and add offense to the bench for next year or is it time to look elsewhere?
Javier Valentin
Jolbert Cabrera
Andy Phillips

Is it time to just let Hairston heal up? And then make a decision if he will be an effective member of next years bench? If he is willing to resign with the Reds.

With already having significant playing time this season, are Bako and Patterson Reds backups for next year or do they have some other options in the players above?

If given the opportunity can any of these three players play another position that can help the Reds defense or player utilization, or is it truly a mistake to move them to another position?
Brandon Phillips - can he play ss ?
Joey Votto - can he play left ?
Edwin Encarnacion - can he play 1B or left ?
Do the Reds look elsewhere?

With shared playing time, is a September call up really enough time to get a good look and see?

durl
08-13-2008, 12:46 PM
Funny how the 2 players that took the most heat yesterday afternoon end up having terrific games: Patterson and Valentin.

Patterson stroked the ball very well (finally?) and Javy's diving catch at first was absolutely amazing.

I guess it just goes to show you that you never can tell who will step up their game...

RedsManRick
08-13-2008, 12:50 PM
Funny how the 2 players that took the most heat yesterday afternoon end up having terrific games: Patterson and Valentin.

Patterson stroked the ball very well (finally?) and Javy's diving catch at first was absolutely amazing.

I guess it just goes to show you that you never can tell who will step up their game...

Or it goes to show you that baseball is a game which requires a lot of time to differentiate the bad from the good. On any given night, anybody can be the star. It's important not to lose the forest for the trees.

Spring~Fields
08-13-2008, 01:28 PM
Funny how the 2 players that took the most heat yesterday afternoon end up having terrific games: Patterson and Valentin.

Patterson stroked the ball very well (finally?) and Javy's diving catch at first was absolutely amazing.

I guess it just goes to show you that you never can tell who will step up their game...

Patterson can hit lower down in the order
Patterson
Not a leadoff hitter, most knew
3 year 2005/2007 stats as a lead off vs lower in the order
Batting #1 .212 .256 .338 .594
Batting #6 .303 .335 .426 .761
Batting #7 .272 .320 .475 .795

Valentine
Getting some playing time after riding the bench most of the year.
Season 69 games 99 AB .253 .299 .384 .683
Career .251 .308 .400 .708

traderumor
08-13-2008, 01:37 PM
Or it goes to show you that baseball is a game which requires a lot of time to differentiate the bad from the good. On any given night, anybody can be the star. It's important not to lose the forest for the trees.Which is why it is usually a bad idea to look at a given day's lineup and say someone is the worst player they have ever seen, unless the hope was to deliver a reverse whammy with the comments earlier in this thread about Javy starting and hitting 5th, esp considering the first baseman is out on bereavement leave.

Chip R
08-13-2008, 01:39 PM
Funny how the 2 players that took the most heat yesterday afternoon end up having terrific games: Patterson and Valentin.

Patterson stroked the ball very well (finally?) and Javy's diving catch at first was absolutely amazing.

I guess it just goes to show you that you never can tell who will step up their game...


Dunn was just keeping them down. ;)