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View Full Version : Tonights lineup-the new era.



DannyB
08-12-2008, 05:55 PM
Chris Dickerson lf

Jeff Keppinger ss

Jay Bruce cf

Brandon Phillips 2b

Javy Valentin 1b

Edwin Encarnacion 3b

Corey Patterson cf

Paul Bako c

Edinson Volquez p

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 05:58 PM
Dusty, for God's sake let Rosales start. I am sick of Valentine

GoReds33
08-12-2008, 06:00 PM
Dusty, for God's sake let Rosales start. I am sick of ValentineI see what you're saying, but this team needs offense, and IMO, Valentin is a better offensive threat.

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 06:01 PM
valentine is not an offensive threat

texasdave
08-12-2008, 06:02 PM
Management pulled the plug on this season. They are looking to the future. Let's hope Valentin isn't part of that future. Start Rosales.

Noosh
08-12-2008, 06:04 PM
Hopefully by Saturday, when Votto is supposed to be back, Hairston will be ready to go as well. Then we can put together a semi-respectable lineup by replacing them for Javy and Corey. Something like:

Hairston LF
Votto 1B
Bruce RF
Phillips 2B
Edwin 3B
Dickerson CF
Keppinger SS
Hanigan C

Seems so weird having 5 out of 8 righties. Although of course Bako will still get his playing time...:(

dsmith421
08-12-2008, 06:04 PM
I see what you're saying, but this team needs offense, and IMO, Valentin is a better offensive threat.

I'm still confused about what Javier Valentin allegedly does well. Because everyone keeps telling me he's a good pinch-hitter, but his statistics as a pinch-hitter are horrible. He can't field any position adequately, hits for a low average, doesn't get on base, and has sporadic power. I seriously question whether any other team in baseball would carry a guy like that.

Kingspoint
08-12-2008, 06:06 PM
What the heck is Patterson doing getting any playing time, and Valentin to, especially after a day off?

C'mon Walt, remove the bonehead decisions for Dusty that he seems incapable of doing himself.

Kingspoint
08-12-2008, 06:08 PM
Baker's an idiot.

Yes, Dusty, we got rid of Ross, Junior and Dunn so you can play your homeboy Patterson and screw with the playing time of the others by playing Valentin.

texasdave
08-12-2008, 06:08 PM
I'm still confused about what Javier Valentin allegedly does well. Because everyone keeps telling me he's a good pinch-hitter, but his statistics as a pinch-hitter are horrible. He can't field any position adequately, hits for a low average, doesn't get on base, and has sporadic power. I seriously question whether any other team in baseball would carry a guy like that.

He is versatile. He does nothing well from either side of the plate. Additionally, he is nondescript at three positions. That plays well on the bench. At least in Cincinnati it does.

Kingspoint
08-12-2008, 06:09 PM
I don't know what's more comical to watch:

A) Dusty Baker make out a lineup card, or

B) Marvin Lewis game-manage a 4th Quarter.

GoReds33
08-12-2008, 06:18 PM
Javy can provide some pop from the left side of the plate. I hate to say it, but with the lineup minus Dunn, we are lacking pop against lefties. Hopefully he can get a few ABs this year, and provide that.

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 06:21 PM
Yeah that .346 SLG% against righties this year is some pretty scary pop from the left side

GoReds33
08-12-2008, 06:22 PM
Yeah that .346 SLG% against righties this year is some pretty scary pop from the left sideDon't get me wrong, I hate the move as much as the next guy, I was just stating the logic that likely landed him in the lineup.

redhawk61
08-12-2008, 06:23 PM
Don't get me wrong, I hate the move as much as the next guy, I was just stating the logic that likely landed him in the lineup.
Thats the thing with Dusty and lineups, not much logic goes into them

LouisvilleCARDS
08-12-2008, 06:24 PM
The last 5 hitters batting .250 or under (wayy under for Patterson.) This is going to be a fun game.

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 06:26 PM
Valentin 5th?!?!?

Keep EE and his TEAM LEADING OPS batting 6th. BRILLIANT!!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

texasdave
08-12-2008, 06:30 PM
I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the Ol' Duster scribbles out a lineup card and then just sits back and grins thinking about how infuriated Reds' fans will be when they see it. It is the only logical explanation. =)

JohnnyBench
08-12-2008, 06:32 PM
I don't know what's more comical to watch:

A) Dusty Baker make out a lineup card, or

B) Marvin Lewis game-manage a 4th Quarter.

Ahhhh, pretty much sums up the pain of being a Cincinnati sports fan.

Chi-Town Red
08-12-2008, 06:41 PM
This current lineup will scare no one....

BLEEDS
08-12-2008, 06:47 PM
This current lineup will scare no one....

It scares me!!! I'm afraid to watch them!!

:lastyear:
:thisyear:
:all_cohol

PEACE

-BLEEDS

texasdave
08-12-2008, 07:06 PM
It scares me!!! I'm afraid to watch them!!

:lastyear:
:thisyear:
:all_cohol

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Let's hope the next sign doesn't read "Welcome to NEXT Year". :)

roby
08-12-2008, 07:09 PM
valentine is not an offensive threat

No, he's just plain offensive! :D

FlyerFanatic
08-12-2008, 07:20 PM
dustys prob mad dunn is gone...so he figures screw it, and decides to play patterson. i'm shocked hes not leading off.

CesarGeronimo
08-12-2008, 07:46 PM
It looks like Dusty, in his own misguided way, is trying to save his job by playing this lineup to win more games, instead of playing the young guys that would benefit the team most in getting ready for next season. Personally, I'd be comfortable with Dusty's job security depending on Patterson, Valentin and Bako.

Grande Donkey
08-12-2008, 07:50 PM
This current lineup will scare no one....Did it really scare people w/ Dunn and Griffey in it?

improbus
08-12-2008, 08:36 PM
It cold be worse. We could be like the Pirates and have Mientkiewicz hitting 3rd. Ugly.

Goose
08-12-2008, 09:54 PM
That lineup is Dustyrific.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 10:39 AM
you know what though.. while the homeruns might not be plentiful.. with dickerson and patterson in the OF.. the defense is almost to the point it is can be considered good.. overall on the field.. and they are alot more fun to watch when they are smiling, hustling, goofing around, and most of all winning.. I know its just one game.. but that team last night was alot more fun to watch than just about anything else the reds have done in 2 years.. short of the HR derby clinic the reds put on in chicago this year..

bounty37h
08-13-2008, 10:48 AM
valentine is not an offensive threat

I know where you wee coming from, but can you send me recipes for crow, how did yours taste?

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 02:26 PM
you know what though.. while the homeruns might not be plentiful.. with dickerson and patterson in the OF.. the defense is almost to the point it is can be considered good.. overall on the field.. and they are alot more fun to watch when they are smiling, hustling, goofing around, and most of all winning.. I know its just one game.. but that team last night was alot more fun to watch than just about anything else the reds have done in 2 years.. short of the HR derby clinic the reds put on in chicago this year..

You do realize it was the Pirates right?!?!

Dickerson and Patterson in the OF - yep, might save you 2-3 errors, while their offense will cost you about 100+ runs less per year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 02:49 PM
You do realize it was the Pirates right?!?!

Dickerson and Patterson in the OF - yep, might save you 2-3 errors, while their offense will cost you about 100+ runs less per year.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

we saw last night that their defense alone saved us at least 2 runs..

errors arent the only thing fielders do wrong.. believe me.. if you didnt have to basically touch it to get one.. dunn would have 25 or 30 errors a year..

speed in the outfield will help alot more than you think bleeds.. go root for dunn in AZ.. the winning will start here in the near future, and i dont want you jumping back on this wagon to tell me how great speed and defense are..

i know it was the pirates.. the thing is though.. they were playing fundamental.. no matter how bad or good a team you play.. you dont play with fundamentals you dont win..

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 02:55 PM
Tell me the last team to win with Speed and Defense was - without Power and Pitching?

Speed is the least valuable. I'll give you CF defense is important, but not LF.

You have things bass-ackwards, as usual.

That's okay, I'm sure you can start rooting against Jay Bruce and EE and BP now when we continue losing and these guys's flaws are no longer under your radar.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 03:16 PM
what is your definition of power and pitching?

we have plenty of 20-30 homer guys on this team for power..

and our bullpen is one of the best in the league..

our starters are having a very weird season.. the workhorses are having their worst years, and the young guys are stepping up..

if the workhorses improve to their normal form and arroyo goes back to a 4 or 5 starter spot you have 3 or 4 15 game winning pitchers on the staff.. esp if they sign a big name FA..

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 04:37 PM
what is your definition of power and pitching?

we have plenty of 20-30 homer guys on this team for power..

and our bullpen is one of the best in the league..

our starters are having a very weird season.. the workhorses are having their worst years, and the young guys are stepping up..

if the workhorses improve to their normal form and arroyo goes back to a 4 or 5 starter spot you have 3 or 4 15 game winning pitchers on the staff.. esp if they sign a big name FA..

POWER: SLG & OBP - we're currently 22nd in MLB in both categories. That also means our OPS is 22nd in the MLB. I know you don't believe it, but OPS highly correlates to ACTUAL runs scored.
Take a guess at where we sit in the MLB in runs scored.

PITCHING: ERA - we're currently 26th in the MLB.
We're also 25th in Wins, 27th in Saves, 25th in Save %, 26th in BAA, 24th in OBP against, 24th in WHIP.
Our pitching stinks.


All the Speed and Defense in the World that you can get won't make up for only getting on base 30% of the time and having balls flying all over the field because your pitchers suck.

Your outlandish dreams of having "plenty" of 20-30 HR guys, and 3-4 16 game winners in our pitching staff is fueled by something out of a Dickens novel.

There are some teams that have "plenty" of 20-30 HR guys, 3-4 16 game winners - they're called the Boston Red Sox and the New York Yankees.


PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Plenty of power..

Votto
Bruce
EE
BPhill
ALL HAVE 25 homer power..
add in a few 15 or more homer guys in gonzo and platoon of catcher.. and probably our replacement outfielder..

that is 7 guys OVER 15 homers a year..

Bo Sox
Ortiz(35 homer), Youk, Drew, and Lowell all have 25 homer power.. with Pedroia and Varitek having 15+ power..

Yankees
Arod(50 homer guy), Giambi(40 homer guy),Abreu all have 25 homer power.. then 4 or 5 guys who can hit 15 homers..

but go back and look at 98-2000, when the yankees actually won WS's and they had only a few 25 homer guys and 4 or 5 15+ homer guys.. with NOONE hitting more than 30 homers...

Looks like without dunn and griffey we will be fine playing "long ball"..

sorry to end your argument there.. but looks like we still have plenty o power..


pitching..

I never said they SHOULD win 16 games, but they CAN..
Harang.. did it twice..
Arroyo.. with a better bullpen for the last 3 years would have been at 15 wins at least 2 of the 3 years..
Volquez.. should get it this year..
Cueto.. still young and improving.. should be able to get a 12-15 win season, that is not a stretch..
and our #5 starter.. if any of our prospects pan out to be even decent thats a 12 game winner..

Runs scored also comes into play when it involves hitting with RISP something we are abysmal at.. and sac flies and bunts.. something we just got rid of..(ross)

next point for me to prove wrong.....
don't you get sick of putting things out that are simply not true?

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:02 PM
You haven't proven anything, except that you don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, our #5 starter should be a 12 game winner. Do you know ANYTHING about baseball?!?! How many teams' #5 pitcher even gets 8-9 wins?!?! Our #2 SP can't even get 12 wins in a good year.

SLG and OPS - you can't refute that - only by saying 7 guys SHOULD be able to have 15+ HR power - if they DID don't you think we'd have an SLG or OPS in the top 20?!?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Oh, that's right hitting sac flies and bunts are more important - those "PRODUCTIVE OUTS" as opposed to NOT making an out and getting on base.
The fact that you'd rather have a sacrifice than a walk shows your complete lack of understanding on how to PRODUCE RUNS.

Pitching - I can't even go there with you and your theoretical CAN/SHOULD/WISH/DREAM.

Lowering your WHIP is the most important - but I guess we should look at how many sac bunts they give up if we want the REAL picture huh?!?!?
You're so funny I forgot to laugh.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 05:09 PM
You haven't proven anything, except that you don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, our #5 starter should be a 12 game winner. Do you know ANYTHING about baseball?!?! How many teams' #5 pitcher even gets 8-9 wins?!?! Our #2 SP can't even get 12 wins in a good year.

SLG and OPS - you can't refute that - only by saying 7 guys SHOULD be able to have 15+ HR power - if they DID don't you think we'd have an SLG or OPS in the top 20?!?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Oh, that's right hitting sac flies and bunts are more important - those "PRODUCTIVE OUTS" as opposed to NOT making an out and getting on base.
The fact that you'd rather have a sacrifice than a walk shows your complete lack of understanding on how to PRODUCE RUNS.

Pitching - I can't even go there with you and your theoretical CAN/SHOULD/WISH/DREAM.

Lowering your WHIP is the most important - but I guess we should look at how many sac bunts they give up if we want the REAL picture huh?!?!?
You're so funny I forgot to laugh.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Well I was stating we have a good base to build on at starting pitching.. and our bullpen ERA is still in the top 10 in baseball even after the WORST week in a LONG time.. Also Arroyo should be our #5 starter.. also i didnt say they ALL SHOULD GET 16 wins a year.. i was saying we HAVE A BASE TO START AT FOR STARTING PITCHING.. with a good start of guys who can allllll win 12 or more games..

Also.. you are saying exactly what i have said for MANY MANY years.. we need more guys who get on base and hit more consistently.. not just get on base a lot in 1 month and not at all the next..

I am sorry but this conversation is OVER.. what about our team B.A. ask ANYONE in REAL baseball (not the fantasy stuff you play) if you would rather have a guy with a B.A. that is .295 and an OBP of .365 or a guy with a B.A. of .240 and an OBP of .380 and they will tell you guy number 1 EVERY TIME.. I have asked that question many a many a time.. and they all agree with me..

Its not a fact that they SHOULD HAVE 15 homer power.. THEY HAVE THE POWER.. the just SHOULD hit 15+ homers a year..

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 05:13 PM
You haven't proven anything, except that you don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, our #5 starter should be a 12 game winner. Do you know ANYTHING about baseball?!?! How many teams' #5 pitcher even gets 8-9 wins?!?! Our #2 SP can't even get 12 wins in a good year.

SLG and OPS - you can't refute that - only by saying 7 guys SHOULD be able to have 15+ HR power - if they DID don't you think we'd have an SLG or OPS in the top 20?!?!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAH!!!
Oh, that's right hitting sac flies and bunts are more important - those "PRODUCTIVE OUTS" as opposed to NOT making an out and getting on base.
The fact that you'd rather have a sacrifice than a walk shows your complete lack of understanding on how to PRODUCE RUNS.

Pitching - I can't even go there with you and your theoretical CAN/SHOULD/WISH/DREAM.

Lowering your WHIP is the most important - but I guess we should look at how many sac bunts they give up if we want the REAL picture huh?!?!?
You're so funny I forgot to laugh.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Wouldn't having a good defense be a big part of lowering ones whip? IE taking hits away from the opposition? Also speed does matter... on defense. A center field, say Ken Griffey Junior, won't get to the balls that a Dickerson would. Thus more hits drop, opposing OBP goes up, as does our WHIP. How is defense not important?

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 05:15 PM
according to bleeds defense doesn't matter at all.. I bet he also thinks since the bengals are completely loaded on offense they will go 15-1.........

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 05:20 PM
Well I agree with him that OBP, OPS, and WHIP are all important factors to a team, but those can be directly effected the defense that you are playing agaisnt and the defense that your team is playing.

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:28 PM
Wouldn't having a good defense be a big part of lowering ones whip? IE taking hits away from the opposition? Also speed does matter... on defense. A center field, say Ken Griffey Junior, won't get to the balls that a Dickerson would. Thus more hits drop, opposing OBP goes up, as does our WHIP. How is defense not important?

I've said Defense is important in CF in this very thread. It's also important at SS - but the same Dunn bashers are the guys who think Keppinger should be there because of his offense - Go Figure!! It's also imperative at Catcher.

You don't need your LF-er to be gold glove, it's a known fact that you get that position filled with OFFENSE. Not Chris Dickerson.

WHIP is a measurement of ACTUAL hits and walks. There is also DIPS type measurements - which is defense INDEPENDENT, and all of our pitchers stink in those vital statistics as well.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:30 PM
Well I was stating we have a good base to build on at starting pitching.. and our bullpen ERA is still in the top 10 in baseball even after the WORST week in a LONG time.. Also Arroyo should be our #5 starter.. also i didnt say they ALL SHOULD GET 16 wins a year.. i was saying we HAVE A BASE TO START AT FOR STARTING PITCHING.. with a good start of guys who can allllll win 12 or more games..

Also.. you are saying exactly what i have said for MANY MANY years.. we need more guys who get on base and hit more consistently.. not just get on base a lot in 1 month and not at all the next..

I am sorry but this conversation is OVER.. what about our team B.A. ask ANYONE in REAL baseball (not the fantasy stuff you play) if you would rather have a guy with a B.A. that is .295 and an OBP of .365 or a guy with a B.A. of .240 and an OBP of .380 and they will tell you guy number 1 EVERY TIME.. I have asked that question many a many a time.. and they all agree with me..

Its not a fact that they SHOULD HAVE 15 homer power.. THEY HAVE THE POWER.. the just SHOULD hit 15+ homers a year..

Nice Flip-Flopping. Why don't you just go back into your posts and edit them to change everything back?

you said we'd have 3-4 15 game winners on our staff. Retract it if you're admitting you're wrong.

You also said we'd have PLENTY of guys who can hit 20-30 HRS. now suddenly it's 15 as the magic number.

It's wonderful to watch your moving targets. Quite entertaining. You should go into politics.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 05:35 PM
Nice Flip-Flopping. Why don't you just go back into your posts and edit them to change everything back?

you said we'd have 3-4 15 game winners on our staff. Retract it if you're admitting you're wrong.

You also said we'd have PLENTY of guys who can hit 20-30 HRS. now suddenly it's 15 as the magic number.

It's wonderful to watch your moving targets. Quite entertaining. You should go into politics.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

unfortunately it is people like you who are in politics..

where did i flip flop at all?

I said we have plenty of guys with power.. 4 guys with 25 homer power and 6 or 7 with 15 homer power..

our pitching staff does have 15 game winners..

NO retractions.. just clarifying for what you said you wanted and going to that..

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 05:35 PM
I've said Defense is important in CF in this very thread. It's also important at SS - but the same Dunn bashers are the guys who think Keppinger should be there because of his offense - Go Figure!! It's also imperative at Catcher.

You don't need your LF-er to be gold glove, it's a known fact that you get that position filled with OFFENSE. Not Chris Dickerson.

WHIP is a measurement of ACTUAL hits and walks. There is also DIPS type measurements - which is defense INDEPENDENT, and all of our pitchers stink in those vital statistics as well.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

So how would you fix the team?

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:37 PM
according to bleeds defense doesn't matter at all.. I bet he also thinks since the bengals are completely loaded on offense they will go 15-1.........

This is baseball, not football. Nice strawman though. Shows your mentality.

YOU would one to think the Bengals are loaded on offense though - 3-4 1,000 Yard Receivers, 2 RB's with 1,000 yards, and your QB's should combine for 5,000 yards and 75 TD's. WAIT - not that they WILL, but they SHOULD!!!

I bet you're the type of Bengal fan who thinks that your defense is greatly improved each year, yet still can't believe when you can't win more than 8 games.

For the record I'm a Steeler Fan. The best Front Office in the entire NFL. That's why it's so sickening to be a Reds fan, to follow not only their front office but have to deal with their "intelligent" fans. Night and Day.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-13-2008, 05:43 PM
as a steeler fan you should recognize the importance for good defense before anyone else..

look.. you cant comprehend what i am saying.. just because a guy has 5000 yd.. 50 td potential doesnt mean he will every year.. but with 3 1200 yd receivers and 2 rb's who can carry the ball over 1000 yards.. they SHOULD have one of the best offenses in the league if the line is also great, and they dont have a shlep calling plays...

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:48 PM
So how would you fix the team?

I'd start at SS and Catcher. I can live with lesser bats for much better Defense.
AGon was a good idea, just hasn't worked out long term.

In CF, I could live with a lighter hitting (not CFP level) guy for GG - IFF we had power in BOTH corners.
I would have extended Adam Dunn, and batted him 3rd or 4th for the next 4 years.
Otherwise I had brought up trading for Jason Bay long before he got traded. He would have been a great Power RH Bat in LF, and he would have been affordable. Now we have about ZERO options, unless we overpay or make a HUGE trade. That is the biggest Black Hole in our team right now.
Sans that, we have to have a CF-er who can get on base above a .300 clip - preferably .350+.

We need MORE pitching.
I would get a top of the line SP. I wanted us in the Zambrano sweepstakes
I would have traded for a Haren/Bedard/Harden before the season started, no way would I have gone into this season with all 3 of those rookies, Josh Fogg and Affeldt. What a waste of a $45M closer to give him only ~30 save chances through August 15th.

I would give up some of our prospects, and spend big $$, to win in this window of opportunity we have with Harang/Arroyo/Cordero - and what should have been Dunn.

Contrary to unpopular belief, this team can easily support a $90-100M payroll, if we're winning, because Reds fans will come fill the stadium for a winner. We can compete if we did that. Instead we take one step forward, then take 2 steps back, almost constantly since 1995.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 05:53 PM
I'd start at SS and Catcher. I can live with lesser bats for much better Defense.
AGon was a good idea, just hasn't worked out long term.

In CF, I could live with a lighter hitting (not CFP level) guy for GG - IFF we had power in BOTH corners.
I would have extended Adam Dunn, and batted him 3rd or 4th for the next 4 years.
Otherwise I had brought up trading for Jason Bay long before he got traded. He would have been a great Power RH Bat in LF, and he would have been affordable. Now we have about ZERO options, unless we overpay or make a HUGE trade. That is the biggest Black Hole in our team right now.
Sans that, we have to have a CF-er who can get on base above a .300 clip - preferably .350+.

We need MORE pitching.
I would get a top of the line SP. I wanted us in the Zambrano sweepstakes
I would have traded for a Haren/Bedard/Harden before the season started, no way would I have gone into this season with all 3 of those rookies, Josh Fogg and Affeldt. What a waste of a $45M closer to give him only ~30 save chances through August 15th.

I would give up some of our prospects, and spend big $$, to win in this window of opportunity we have with Harang/Arroyo/Cordero - and what should have been Dunn.

Contrary to unpopular belief, this team can easily support a $90-100M payroll, if we're winning, because Reds fans will come fill the stadium for a winner. We can compete if we did that. Instead we take one step forward, then take 2 steps back, almost constantly since 1995.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Paying Adam Dunn 100 million or Zambrano his massive contract would'nt be over paying?

Those contracts would have the Reds salary at around 130 mill, not 90-100.

That CFer sounds like Chris Dickerson.

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 05:58 PM
as a steeler fan you should recognize the importance for good defense before anyone else..

look.. you cant comprehend what i am saying.. just because a guy has 5000 yd.. 50 td potential doesnt mean he will every year.. but with 3 1200 yd receivers and 2 rb's who can carry the ball over 1000 yards.. they SHOULD have one of the best offenses in the league if the line is also great, and they dont have a shlep calling plays...

Yeah, unfortunately this comparison doesn't work since these guys don't play Offense AND Defense. This isn't two-way player HS football.

You want to have your QB to be Kordell Stewart because he's fast - BUT he can't complete enough of his passes and throws too many interceptions, but because you think SPEED is important he's your starter.

You also want your WR's to be 5'7 and hands of stone (can't catch) but they all run 4.2 40 yard dashes, in their shorts without pads.

But, this is baseball. You need Defense emphasis at SOME positions, and Offense emphasis at others.

You now have replaced Dunn/Hamilton/Griffey with Dickerson/Patterson/Bruce. That's only ONE upgrade and two HUGE downgrades. But hey, they're fast.

I don't doubt that Votto has potential to be a .280 20 HR guy - but anything beyond that is dreaming. Bruce has as much potential as anybody, but right now he strikes out too much and doesn't get on base enough either.

You think marginally better Defense can overcome HUGE discrepancies in getting on base. That is where your biggest flaw is. It just doesn't come out in the wash, no matter how much you will it to be.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 06:04 PM
Paying Adam Dunn 100 million or Zambrano his massive contract would'nt be over paying?

Those contracts would have the Reds salary at around 130 mill, not 90-100.


Not even close. You can sign both of those guys up at $20M per year, and you'd still be under $100M - right around $95M - and that's with estimates of $2M for both EE and Volquez in Arbitration (not even sure if Volquez is eligible for Arb yet)

I would have extended Dunn prior to the season at $15-17M per.


That CFer sounds like Chris Dickerson.

I could live with Dickerson in CF with Dunn and Bruce on L and R, and waiting for Drew Stubbs to take his place. Ideally, we should have got Kenny Lofton instead of paying $3M for CFP.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 06:25 PM
In 09 zambrano is owed 17.5 mill and we'll put Dunn at the same. Thats 35 million in two players. Almost half of this years salary and over a third of your 95 million. Take into account Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, Cordero and your paying probably 65% of your money to 6 players.

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 06:38 PM
In 09 zambrano is owed 17.5 mill and we'll put Dunn at the same. Thats 35 million in two players. Almost half of this years salary and over a third of your 95 million. Take into account Harang, Arroyo, Phillips, Cordero and your paying probably 65% of your money to 6 players.


That's right. That's how it happens, you sprinkle those in with young guys just breaking into the majors - and get paid $400K each.

DUH, that's why it's a WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY.

Sprinkle in high-priced vets/superstars with young cheap prospects. Keep rolling in younger guys to take over for the high-priced guys.

Right now, all we've got is young cheap guys, and overpayed middle salaried fodder - with neither talent nor upside. I guess that's your formula?!?!?


PEACE

-BLEEDS

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 07:31 PM
I know you are very passionate and smart but do you have to be such a prick?

Your dreaming if you think the Reds would ever go out and do any of the things you propose. It won't happen in reality. What will happen in reality is they will go out and sign a few smaller contracts such as the ones I have proposed in other threads and try and have things line up for them so they can get lucky.

If you think the Reds would go after Sabathia, Sheets, or Tex your a moron. They won't, not ever.

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 07:48 PM
I know you are very passionate and smart but do you have to be such a prick?

Your dreaming if you think the Reds would ever go out and do any of the things you propose. It won't happen in reality. What will happen in reality is they will go out and sign a few smaller contracts such as the ones I have proposed in other threads and try and have things line up for them so they can get lucky.

If you think the Reds would go after Sabathia, Sheets, or Tex your a moron. They won't, not ever.

First off, you asked me what MY solution is. I gave you one. Agree or disagree, but watch the name calling. I hear the Mods don't like it.

I never mentioned Sabathia/Sheets/Tex. I said Zambrano. To me he was the one pitcher worth the big contract. Not Zito, not Santana.

If our only plan is to "get lucky", then it's a bad plan.

They spent $45M on a closer - a luxury at best.
They are owned by Castellini, and now GM'd by Jocketty, who turned St. Louis around with a similar "MID MARKET" team.
The Reds made a PROFIT of upwards to $40M last year.
They CAN spend the money - and any business owner knows you SPEND Money to MAKE money.
The Reds are not owned by Carl Lindner anymore, and can't cry Small Market anymore and not have people laugh at them. This team used to have Sell outs ALL THE TIME, even throught he horrible 80's and into the early 90's. Only after the strike and putting miserable products on the field did the fans stop going. They can do it again. IFF they want to.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

schmidty622
08-13-2008, 08:02 PM
I agree with part of what you say but you don't need to say it so condescendingly, it’s something you do often and it’s not appreciated by anyone.

They CAN do all of that.

Will they... NO. They will consistently get out bid for the high level free agents and they know that. Part of running a small to mid market program is developing your talent and guess what GETTING LUCKY. How did Colorado do it? How do the A's do it? How do the Twins do it? How is Tampa doing it? They are small to mid market teams that don't spend big money on free agents. If you think the Reds have the potential to be any better than those organizations then you’re flat out wrong. AT BEST, in this market they can strive to be AS good as those teams.

Oh and that 40 million dollar profit would be missing a significant chunk with the signings of Zambrano and Dunn. How do you think the share holders would like that? Not very much.

Can they go out and sign productive players... YES. However, those players will not break the bank, it's why they balked at the option of bringing Dunn back and will balk at the idea of signing players to huge deals in the future.

BLEEDS
08-13-2008, 08:28 PM
Oh and that 40 million dollar profit would be missing a significant chunk with the signings of Zambrano and Dunn. How do you think the share holders would like that? Not very much.

Can they go out and sign productive players... YES. However, those players will not break the bank, it's why they balked at the option of bringing Dunn back and will balk at the idea of signing players to huge deals in the future.

We have shareholders? When did the Reds do their IPO?!?!

Castellini doesn't need to make any money off the Reds, he's doing quite fine. I actually believe he wants to WIN more than anything. That's what really successful businessmen strive for - after they've made enough money to pay for their grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren's inheritence. PLUS, as I said, he knows if he WINS they will buy ticket, and concessions, and jerseys, and he'll get it back in no time.

IF they balked at huge deals, they wouldn't have gone after Cordero - and made him one of, if not THE, highest paid closer in all of MLB.
What makes it a mystery is why they stopped there, and why they got Josh Fogg and Corey Patterson and the rest of the fodder instead of making that ONE BIG move to get another SP in here? Made no sense at all.

I think Jocketty is going to make some big moves. I know what he says to the media, but he hides it pretty well. He says we'll look to Free Agency but not overpay, and that he'd rather make trades, but not give up our prospects. That doesn't add up. He's keeping his real thoughts close to his chest. Different from WK who didn't say anything, WJ seems to say things to send smoke screens and goose chase hunts.

No way do we go into next season with this roster as-is; without a big move or three, we'll be in the cellar, with 3 REALLY expensive pitchers being wasted by an offense that can't get a lead turned over to the Closer.

PEACE

-BLEEDS