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View Full Version : Who would you like to see the Reds acquire to play shortstop in 2009?



OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 01:31 PM
I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Jeff Keppinger doesn't have the range or instincts to be a major league shortstop. Time and time again routine groundballs and pop ups are turning into base hits because of poor range at shortstop. Everyone knows Kepp isn't a shortstop which is why Jocketty needs to be looking for a permanent answer at shortstop in the offseason. I'm starting this thread to see who Reds fans would realistically like to see playing shortstop for the Reds in the 2009 season. I've cooled on the idea of moving Brandon Phillips to shortstop because it weakens second base and Phillips probably wouldn't be anything more than average to above average anyways. That leaves us with looking outside the organization...

My number one choice would be Chin-lung Hu of the Dodgers. With the glove he's got great range, a very strong arm, and great footwork and the talent to be a Gold Glove shortstop in the majors. Offensively he's got a solid track record in the minor leagues with a .301/.347/.427 statline though he has been over matched in the major leagues at this point, which is why I think the Dodgers will trade him. They will re-sign Furcal and look to trade Hu IMO. They may be in the market for a younger second baseman and maybe Valaika could be their guy. A middle infield of Brandon Phillips and Chin-lung Hu with Chris Dickerson/Drew Stubbs in center field would be one of the best up the middle defenses in all of baseball.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-14-2008, 01:34 PM
I think it's fairly obvious at this point that Jeff Keppinger doesn't have the range or instincts to be a major league shortstop.

I'm not so sure about his offensive abilities either. He's an okay hitter for a middle infielder if he has a great glove, but he doesn't.

marcshoe
08-14-2008, 01:38 PM
Brandon Phillips.

Then sign Orlando Hudson to play second ('course I just blew the FA budget on Milton Bradley on another thread...)

Raisor
08-14-2008, 01:42 PM
It's Jock, so I'm guessing Eckstein.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2008, 01:43 PM
J.J. Hardy.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 01:44 PM
Paul Janish

Raisor
08-14-2008, 01:46 PM
So what are we assuming is going to happen to A-Gon?

BuckeyeRedleg
08-14-2008, 01:48 PM
I'll take Gonzalez, considering we're paying him so much money.

And he should be well rested.

nate
08-14-2008, 01:49 PM
Paul Janish

Yeah.

OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 01:54 PM
It's Jock, so I'm guessing Eckstein.

I'm scared to death of that.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 01:55 PM
So what are we assuming is going to happen to A-Gon?

Career-ending injury, IMO.

lollipopcurve
08-14-2008, 01:56 PM
Take a look in house. Janish/Valaika, even maybe Todd Frazier by the end of the year.

May want to draft Grant Green, currently tearing up the Cape.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I'm scared to death of that.

This is ridiculous. Jocketty is the smartest GM the Reds have had since Howsam. No way he gets a guy like Eckstein as the starter.

PuffyPig
08-14-2008, 02:03 PM
This is ridiculous. Jocketty is the smartest GM the Reds have had since Howsam. No way he gets a guy like Eckstein as the starter.

Especially since he previously let him go.

OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 02:06 PM
This is ridiculous. Jocketty is the smartest GM the Reds have had since Howsam. No way he gets a guy like Eckstein as the starter.

Are you forgetting that he signed Eckstein to a three year deal while with St. Louis?

OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 02:07 PM
Take a look in house. Janish/Valaika, even maybe Todd Frazier by the end of the year.

May want to draft Grant Green, currently tearing up the Cape.

Valaika and Frazier don't have the range to play shortstop everyday.

Reds1
08-14-2008, 02:09 PM
I don't know who, but believe yes we need a new short stop. I guess they could use Hairston and get a big OF bopper, but would still like to see an upgrade and move Kepp to the bench - be a nice pinch hitter, spot starter. At this point I don't think I'd move Phillips, but that's a possibility.

edabbs44
08-14-2008, 02:10 PM
Hopefully no one that costs a lot of $$$ if they aren't going to improve the team in material fashion. Go get the stud SS when they are close to competing.

OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 02:11 PM
I don't know who, but believe yes we need a new short stop. I guess they could use Hairston and get a big OF bopper, but would still like to see an upgrade and move Kepp to the bench - be a nice pinch hitter, spot starter. At this point I don't think I'd move Phillips, but that's a possibility.

Hairston is every bit as bad as Keppinger at SS.

RedlegJake
08-14-2008, 02:11 PM
If Jocketty is assured by medical staff that AGon can return healthy and ready I think he'll play out the string with AGon. That way he could buy himself another year to find a SS and concentrate on other holes.

If, as FCB fears, AGon has had a career ending injury, then SS becomes a problem. You have Janish in house so why Eckstein or his ilk? The problem would be finding a guy who can field the position and contribute at the plate. Frazier would likely be Keppinger in the field, imo. Ditto Valaika. Both might be able to hit but neither (by all reports) is really a SS so why keep forcing non-SS types into a position that requires a good glove? If that's the solution just leave Kepp there - he'll get his stroke back.

medford
08-14-2008, 02:22 PM
Good thing leather-pants is no longer GM. If Walt cut him previously, I can't imagine him bringing him into Cincy other than on a near league minimum 1 year contract.

At this point, I'm in favor of Phillips, but honestly, other than thru a trade, I don't see anyone out there that the reds could get that would provide both a glove & defense. Assuming Keppinger can hit like he has most of this season, especially pre-knee injury, then I don't mind his limited range. I'd only move Phillips though if you could rock solid second bagger. No need to move him to weaken 2 positions defensively.

nate
08-14-2008, 02:22 PM
I think, unless you're getting a guy that's good in both halves of an inning, stick with Janish and Agon if/when he comes back.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 02:23 PM
So what are we assuming is going to happen to A-Gon?
In addition to Gonzalez, what is going to happen to Freel and a Hairston, a Hairston that you know the manager will want back and will be getting them playing time in the infield and outfield?


Jocketty is the smartest GM the Reds have had since Howsam.

Like Howsam, Jocketty has seemed to have good defense at short, second, third, first, center and catching during his rein in St. Louis. At the same time he never seemed to have a problem playing some of his players at different positions in the outfield, or at third and first base as needed until he could find a better option.

I thought that he might try to go after a Hudson from Arizona, or Ellis from Oakland to play second base, (so wonít many other teams) and move Phillips to shortstop. This message board and forum has argued over the years that a good second baseman is easier to obtain over than a good shortstop in the past.

I also thought that he might move Encarncion from third to first base, Votto to left, and Gonzalez to third or second base, unless specific position player upgrades were available to him through trades or the FA market.

Though in some ways I am not surprised that with the remaining 41 games in a lost season that they are not having basic tryouts and auditions among what they have on hand currently to see if any of them are answers or upgrades in the various positions, considerng that the FA market that has been described by Jocketty as being thin.

Chip R
08-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Career-ending injury, IMO.


That may be so but the Reds need to make their plans for 2009 knowing for sure whether he can play or not. It might not be a bad idea to go after someone like Jack Wilson in case Gonzo can't play. OTOH, it's going to be difficult to get anyone good in the field and adequate at the plate if they think they are going to sit behind Gonzo for a year or two. What's Gonzo's timetable for recovery? Is he going to be able to play winter ball so the Reds can find out he's healthy enough to play? My guess is that even if his injury is career ending, he's going to want to play and the Reds will be stuck without an adequate backup once again.

Raisor
08-14-2008, 02:24 PM
This is ridiculous. Jocketty is the smartest GM the Reds have had since Howsam. No way he gets a guy like Eckstein as the starter.

1996-98
Royce Clayton
321/371
306/398
313/327

99-04
Edgar Renteria
334/400
346/423
314/371
364/439
394/480
327/401

05-07
David Eckstein
363/395
350/344
356/382

12 seasons
5 of those did he have a shortstop 350+ OBP

Renteria was home grown, and the best of the bunch, but even he was Eckstein-ish most of his STL career.

OnBaseMachine
08-14-2008, 02:25 PM
1996-98
Renteria was home grown, and the best of the bunch, but even he was Eckstein-ish most of his STL career.

Renteria was acquired from the Marlins. Slacker. ;)

Raisor
08-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Renteria was acquired from the Marlins. Slacker. ;)

Who are these "Marlins" you speak of?

*BaseClogger*
08-14-2008, 02:26 PM
Renteria was home grown

Correct me if I'm wrong because I was nine years old, but didn't Renteria come up with the Marlins?

Edit: Beat to the punch...

RedsManRick
08-14-2008, 02:28 PM
Until and unless Alex Gonzalez is dealt, he should compete with Keppinger for the job. I'd still like to see Phillips moved back to SS and Keppinger shifted to 2B.

If we were to pursue somebody, Rafael Furcal would be my primary target. If Furcal is retained by the Dodgers, I'd pursue a Bailey-Hu trade.

Raisor
08-14-2008, 02:28 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong because I was nine years old, but didn't Renteria come up with the Marlins?

Wait, he was some kind of fish?

OK, fine, but it doesn't change my point!!!

:thumbup:

lollipopcurve
08-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Valaika and Frazier don't have the range to play shortstop everyday.

I think this is likely true, but if they'd been playing there regularly prior to their callups, that's where I'd start them.

Apparently this Grant Green kid can hit and play defense.

Mario-Rijo
08-14-2008, 02:29 PM
Hairston is every bit as bad as Keppinger at SS.

I agree he isn't better, Hairston has more range but a weaker arm and glove. How about Orlando Cabrera? He's gonna be a FA, but I think he may want too much money for what his true worth is. And he certainly isn't the best clubhouse guy but he gives you a good offensive and defensive player at a position of need.

I have a funny feeling that Gonzo is done and has been mentally for some time now. Think about it, the guy never really showed a penchant for improving much, seemed to have a bit of nonchalant approach to the game. He came up in 1998 and then signed a deal in '07 with us played most of it (off and on) and we haven't seen him since. I think he comes back next season and kind of gives us a dog effort but just enough to stay afloat and gets his 10 years of service time in (just enough for his pension) and then retires. Rides off into the sunset with his .5 million '10 buyout, right now he has 9.034 years of time in.

flyer85
08-14-2008, 02:29 PM
after the way Hudson destroyed his wrist I would say he is out of the picture for 2009.

Chip R
08-14-2008, 02:34 PM
OK, fine, but it doesn't change my point!!!

:thumbup:


Yeah, it's still on top of your head. :p:

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 02:34 PM
after the way Hudson destroyed his wrist I would say he is out of the picture for 2009.

Very possible, which brings me back to who is realistically in the picture for shorstop for next year for the Reds, and will he be batting second?

Most of Hairston’s games were as a second baseman in his career, though he has had several seasons with injuries.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3966&context=fielding
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/news?playerId=3966

Keppinger has had time at both second and short
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6076&context=fielding

Freel and Gonzalez well they now have a history of injury and time that they are unavailable to the team during the regular season.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4629&context=fielding
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/news?playerId=4629

Gonzalez has always played ss
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3916&context=fielding
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/news?playerId=3916

Can Rosales play any infield positions at the major league level, or is he still just a minor leaguer?

Chip R
08-14-2008, 02:37 PM
and will he be batting second?


You have to ask?

RedlegJake
08-14-2008, 02:39 PM
Raisor I'm not sure I see your correlation to FCB's quote. Are you saying Jocketty is not smart because he had great defense at shortstop regardless of offense? All three were at the top of their game defensively when they played for Saint Louis. Any offense they contributed was a bonus.

Walt's team are really pretty traditional. Defense at C-SS-CF, the big stick coming from 1B. Decent contributors on defense and offense at the other spots without anyone (except perhaps Rolen) really being a dominant player at their position. Add good frontline pitching. Usually a thin bench and thin pen (albeit with a closer). Basically - 8 solid starters on the field with no glaring weakness, 4 good solid starters and a closer. Nice balance of speed, defense, some pop with one really big bat in the middle.

AmarilloRed
08-14-2008, 02:42 PM
Gonzalez if he is healthy entering 2009. If he is not, then Janish can serve as the SS short term. I would look to acquiring another SS in the off-season, though.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 02:49 PM
You have to ask?

Well it is an apparent part of the situation, I will call it as we have experienced it. So the team needs a good hitting shortstop and a good hitting centerfielder, right?

Strikes Out Looking
08-14-2008, 02:58 PM
AGon is the ss next year unless he is traded or retires. The youngsters in the minors should be used after than unless Walt gets some prospect from another team.

Kepp, Hairston and Freel are all good players to have on the bench but shouldn't be slotted to start anywhere unless you move EE to LF and have Kepp and Freel platoon at 3b. And quite frankly, Hairston and Freel are very fragile and I don't think either will ever play more than 100 games a season even if you hand them a starting position on a silver platter.

Chip R
08-14-2008, 03:12 PM
Kepp, Hairston and Freel are all good players to have on the bench but shouldn't be slotted to start anywhere unless you move EE to LF and have Kepp and Freel platoon at 3b. And quite frankly, Hairston and Freel are very fragile and I don't think either will ever play more than 100 games a season even if you hand them a starting position on a silver platter.


We shouldn't keep any more than a couple of these guys.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Until and unless Alex Gonzalez is dealt, he should compete with Keppinger for the job. I'd still like to see Phillips moved back to SS and Keppinger shifted to 2B.



With no other immediate or on hand alternatives available as we write, that is what I want also, and I am almost fixated in not being able to see why the rest of the season (only 41 games) cannot be used for a tryout to see if the Phillips/Keppinger flip could work or even if a Hairston can play second. Of course as a fan I want the best that the league has at short and second, but that is not realistic.

Raisor
08-14-2008, 03:31 PM
Raisor I'm not sure I see your correlation to FCB's quote. Are you saying Jocketty is not smart because he had great defense at shortstop regardless of offense? All three were at the top of their game defensively when they played for Saint Louis. Any offense they contributed was a bonus.

.

Not at all, I was just pointing out that Eckstein was exactly the kind of SS Jocketty would go after. It would be FCB that was saying he was too smart to do that.


If defense is going to be the most important qualification for the SS, the Reds are going to need to pickup offense from someplace else. Right now, on 8/14 I have no idea where that might be.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 03:39 PM
If defense is going to be the most important qualification for the SS, the Reds are going to need to pickup offense from someplace else. Right now, on 8/14 I have no idea where that might be.

I have no idea either.

That is why I default to the Phillips at short idea, the team needs solid defense at short to help the pitching and RS RA DIFF, and it might be easier to find an adequate or good defensive second baseman who does have some offense in his resume. The team needs a good offensive and defensive shortstop also because management here tends to bat that position second, a position that needs to have OBP.

GoReds
08-14-2008, 03:42 PM
Janish.

Of course, all of this depends on the makeup of the rest of the team. No roster should ever have a Corey Patterson on it. It's worse if you have a Corey Patterson AND a Janish on the same roster.

Janish bats eighth.

The problem is, trying to get a decent lineup together when you know that you shouldn't expect much production from C, SS or CF. So, something has to give. Considering that it's unlikely the Reds will pick up an above-average stick at C and it being just as likely that Dickerson will be in CF next year, that means the Reds have to pick up a really good stick at LF, 3B or 1B (moving either Votto or EdE to left if they find an above-average 3B or 1B).

1B should be the easiest of the three to find, but the dollars are going to have to flow.

wheels
08-14-2008, 03:47 PM
I think this is likely true, but if they'd been playing there regularly prior to their callups, that's where I'd start them.

Apparently this Grant Green kid can hit and play defense.

Grant Green = Gold Glove?

I like it. Sign him up.

bucksfan2
08-14-2008, 04:02 PM
I vote for Barry Larkin circa mid 90's.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 04:07 PM
Janish.

Of course, all of this depends on the makeup of the rest of the team. No roster should ever have a Corey Patterson on it. It's worse if you have a Corey Patterson AND a Janish on the same roster.

Janish bats eighth.

The problem is, trying to get a decent lineup together when you know that you shouldn't expect much production from C, SS or CF. So, something has to give. Considering that it's unlikely the Reds will pick up an above-average stick at C and it being just as likely that Dickerson will be in CF next year, that means the Reds have to pick up a really good stick at LF, 3B or 1B (moving either Votto or EdE to left if they find an above-average 3B or 1B).

1B should be the easiest of the three to find, but the dollars are going to have to flow.

I fear that you may be assuming facts that are not in evidence, when the Reds currently have two players auditioning for centerfield for next year. One being Corey Patterson, the other Dickerson, neither of the two have proven to be very good offensively to date. If you were to add a Janish to the mix, well, we have already experienced that for the offensive side of the game.

A lineup that is void of on base percentage receiving more of the AB or PA in the one and two slots will be weakened offensively with a low OBP CF and SS, as current management has a preference for hitting them one two in the order. Plus management has already been written as having a posture of getting Hairston healthy to get him back in CF.

I agree with your assertion on 1B, as when I look even in AAA the leagues seem to be full of POS 1B/DH types with high OBP, SLG and OPS waiting for a chance with some teams.

Kc61
08-14-2008, 04:12 PM
I'd like to see Tulowitski play shortstop for the Reds next year.

My guess is that it will be Gonzo with a lot of backup. Hairston, Janish, and others.

I think Reds will focus on other positions this off-season.

Another guess is that Keppinger could be included in a trade, since I don't see a position for him with the Reds.

Spring~Fields
08-14-2008, 04:16 PM
Another guess is that Keppinger could be included in a trade, since I don't see a position for him with the Reds.

Do you think that they will trade the multi-positional utility player Keppinger that can also hit? I just don’t see that because he has the added value for the bench, of course any and all players should be available to trade from this team for better options.

RedsManRick
08-14-2008, 04:26 PM
I'd like to see Tulowitski play shortstop for the Reds next year.

I'd like Pujols, Longoria, and Lincecum please. :D

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 04:28 PM
1996-98
Royce Clayton
321/371
306/398
313/327

99-04
Edgar Renteria
334/400
346/423
314/371
364/439
394/480
327/401

05-07
David Eckstein
363/395
350/344
356/382

12 seasons
5 of those did he have a shortstop 350+ OBP

Renteria was home grown, and the best of the bunch, but even he was Eckstein-ish most of his STL career.

Come on. You're talking about the 2009 version of Eckstein, whose career is essentially over. Jocketty's not going to sign him to start him in Cincy.

And shortstop is a defense-first position. Even now.

Kc61
08-14-2008, 04:29 PM
Do you think that they will trade the multi-positional utility player Keppinger that can also hit? I just donít see that because he has the added value for the bench, of course any and all players should be available to trade from this team for better options.

Consider this. The Reds have Kepp, Freel, and Hairston. They need a backup catcher. They need a lefty pinch hitter. IMO, they need a Conine type to play against lefties. And I'd like to see Janish or another defensive whiz on the bench.

A fairly long bench will be needed to accomodate all these folks.

Freel's contract will keep him with the club, I think.

Hairston's fabulous but short season will keep him too, I think.

There will be a backup catcher.

There will be a lefty pinch hitter, Javy or someone new.

Who's the fifth guy? My guess is that Keppinger can be a starter for another team at second base and has trade value, especially if he hits well from here on out in 2008. So my guess is that he can be included in a trade. And there will be trades.

I like Kepp (when healthy) and have no trouble with him staying. But it's just the way the roster may shape up.

Razor Shines
08-14-2008, 04:35 PM
If we are rebuilding, does it really matter? As long as we're truly rebuilding, I'm fine with throwing Janish out there for a year. Move Phillips as well and get some other kid to play 2nd. Now that Dunn is gone and won't be back, I'd be fine if next season is nothing more than glorified tryouts for a bunch of young guys.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 04:37 PM
I'd be fine if next season is nothing more than glorified tryouts for a bunch of young guys.

It may end up being this ^, but it won't be treated as this by the front office. They'll be trying to put as many MLB bodies out there as possible.

klw
08-14-2008, 04:40 PM
Barring an aquisition, I would like to see Phillips moved to short. It seems that most of the Reds middle infield prospects are better suited to a move to 2nd or 3rd. Getting Phillips established or at least tried back at SS would seem to make sense from a long term planning perspective. If he is still here and healthy enough to play I would try A Gone over at 2nd as a stop gap. If he is unable then Keppinger. Again all this barring a move to bring someone in from outside the organization.

Raisor
08-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Come on. You're talking about the 2009 version of Eckstein, whose career is essentially over. Jocketty's not going to sign him to start him in Cincy.

And shortstop is a defense-first position. Even now.

To be fair to Eckstein, he's putting up a pretty Eckstein-ish season this year, right in range of his career numbers.

Will M
08-14-2008, 04:45 PM
Assuming Phillips stays at 2B and JJ Hardy is actually available the answer is easy: JJ Hardy.
Look at that lineup:
CF Dickerson
SS Hardy
RF Bruce
LF EE
1B Votto
2B Phillips
3B Gonzo, Kep, Rosales or Valaika
C Hanigan

I suspect the Reds plan to have Gonzo at SS in 2009. Didn't Walt actually say this a couple of weeks ago? Janish & Kep are fall back options if Gonzo is done.

Razor Shines
08-14-2008, 04:49 PM
It may end up being this ^, but it won't be treated as this by the front office. They'll be trying to put as many MLB bodies out there as possible.

You're probably right, but it doesn't make a lot of sense, to me anyway. I'd be more inclined to drive down to Cincy to watch a team of 20 somethings than journeyman guys in their mid 30s on one year contracts just filling out a roster while our young guys grow up.

Johnny Footstool
08-14-2008, 04:54 PM
Assuming Phillips stays at 2B and JJ Hardy is actually available the answer is easy: JJ Hardy.

Testify!!!

Hardy will be 26 years old next year. He is already above average on offense and defense, and he's still showing improvements (his BB rate is up this season).

The issues are that he's arb eligible, and it would probably take some front-line MLB talent to acquire him.

Tom Servo
08-14-2008, 04:56 PM
Count me in on JJ Hardy. Good defense and pop in the bat is a recipe for success.

RedlegJake
08-14-2008, 05:01 PM
I'm on for Hardy but I think the Brewers would expect the Reds to really seriously overpay for him. That said, sure, I'd love to see JJ in a Reds uniform.

bucksfan2
08-14-2008, 05:02 PM
What about Clint Barmas from Colroado? The guy was on his way to winning the ROY a few years ago until he had the fateful deer meat encounter. I don't know how much it would take to get him but he isn't going to start for Colorado at SS.

NJReds
08-14-2008, 05:03 PM
Neifi Perez.

That would give us the great Patterson/Perez 1-2 punch that Dusty longs for. ;)

RedlegJake
08-14-2008, 05:05 PM
Neifi Perez.

That would give us the great Patterson/Perez 1-2 punch that Dusty longs for. ;)

evil, evil, evil thoughts. Must be that milk they drink in NJ;)

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 05:20 PM
To be fair to Eckstein, he's putting up a pretty Eckstein-ish season this year, right in range of his career numbers.

But even the most generous observer realizes his "better" defensive days are over. He was a pretty solid ballplayer at the height of his career, but he's the kind of guy you squeeze as much as you can out of then drop.

Raisor
08-14-2008, 05:23 PM
But even the most generous observer realizes his "better" defensive days are over.

All I'm saying is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jocketty went down that road. A one year contract for Eckstein while he figures out what he wants to do.

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

Falls City Beer
08-14-2008, 05:24 PM
All I'm saying is that it wouldn't surprise me at all if Jocketty went down that road. A one year contract for Eckstein while he figures out what he wants to do.

I'm hoping I'm wrong.

He had a chance to go down the Jim Edmonds road again this spring; he passed.

Walt tends to like to turn the page. And he loves dumping guys past their prime. He's the master of that (the one exception being Carpenter I guess).

GAC
08-14-2008, 10:18 PM
It appears to me, with Walt's recent moves, that his emphasis going into '09, is to improve this team's defense. Improving the D helps the pitching. It's why you're seeing kids like Hanigan and Dickerson getting a look-see.

Now who is the better defensive SS in the system? On a whim? probably Janish.

Gonzo, IMO, is untradeable. We could very well see a Gonzo/Janish combo in '09. Much like what we saw going into '08 with Votto and Hatte at 1B.

And it's also what scares me about Patterson. Will they "covet" his defensive abilities enough to bring him back?

boognish
08-14-2008, 10:49 PM
I think to this point Keppinger's audition as a starter has to be considered a failure; he hasn't even supplied the high batting average so many assumed.

I'd like to see a trade (haven't heard a better target than Hu, he can really flash the leather) or Janish get a shot to see if the glove is as advertised. If the Reds' brass makes the determination that Janish's glove isn't all that--I like his arm but that may be only compared to the noodly Hairston or below-average Kepp--then they need to go get someone.

*BaseClogger*
08-15-2008, 02:39 AM
Ben Zobrist?

Chip R
08-15-2008, 11:02 AM
I think to this point Keppinger's audition as a starter has to be considered a failure; he hasn't even supplied the high batting average so many assumed.



I think "failure" is pretty harsh unless you actually considered him to be any more than a temporary solution.

RedlegJake
08-15-2008, 11:52 AM
I fully expect AGon to be the starting SS. Whether Janish makes the team is another question. Walt loves defense but Janish may start in AAA with Kepp being the first backup to AGon. If Hairston is re-signed, he adds another emergency SS. If AGon goes on the DL then I'd expect Janish to get the call. All this depends on Jocketty being cnvinced that AGon will return healthy.

KronoRed
08-15-2008, 02:44 PM
I think "failure" is pretty harsh unless you actually considered him to be any more than a temporary solution.

I think it fits, we have tons of people here and in the paper saying Kepp needed to take over 3rd when A-Gon came back, now at least we have all seen he's just a bench guy.

Jpup
08-15-2008, 03:02 PM
A-Rod.

jojo
08-15-2008, 03:13 PM
Here's a guy who won't be ready for '09 but who I'd be happy to see the Reds acquire- Elvis Andrus (part of the Braves trade for Tex).

He's in Frisco of the Texas league (AA) at the tender age of 19. He's a tremendous defender but offensively he'll probably be a speedburner/contact guy with something like average on base skills. He's a pretty valuable type of prospect especially given his age but since he'll probably never develop power, the Rangers system is pretty much loaded, and Michael Young is signed through 2013, the Rangers might entertain trading him reasonably.

At 19, he'd instantly be the best shortstop in the Reds organization.

Chip R
08-15-2008, 03:26 PM
I think it fits, we have tons of people here and in the paper saying Kepp needed to take over 3rd when A-Gon came back, now at least we have all seen he's just a bench guy.


But that's what I was saying. If you expected him to be anything more than a fill-in then it would be an apt description. Others haven't been caught up in the hyperbole and have realized that he's just another bench player who had a hot streak and would probably be exposed when he got regular playing time. What were the alternatives? Castro sure wasn't one. Janish was supposed to be a glove but he was erratic in the field. Hariston can't stay healthy and neither could Cabrera. I hate to say it but the silver lining in Gonzo's injury was that we found out about the in-house replacements.

OnBaseMachine
08-15-2008, 03:27 PM
Here's a guy who won't be ready for '09 but who I'd be happy to see the Reds acquire- Elvis Andrus (part of the Braves trade for Tex).

He's in Frisco of the Texas league (AA) at the tender age of 19. He's a tremendous defender but offensively he'll probably be a speedburner/contact guy with something like average on base skills. He's a pretty valuable type of prospect especially given his age but since he'll probably never develop power, the Rangers system is pretty much loaded, and Michael Young is signed through 2013, the Rangers might entertain trading him reasonably.

At 19, he'd instantly be the best shortstop in the Reds organization.

I was reading a couple days ago that the Rangers may make him available for starting pitching. I'd offer Homer for Andrus and a lesser prospect.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2008, 03:28 PM
Here's a guy who won't be ready for '09 but who I'd be happy to see the Reds acquire- Elvis Andrus (part of the Braves trade for Tex).

He's in Frisco of the Texas league (AA) at the tender age of 19. He's a tremendous defender but offensively he'll probably be a speedburner/contact guy with something like average on base skills. He's a pretty valuable type of prospect especially given his age but since he'll probably never develop power, the Rangers system is pretty much loaded, and Michael Young is signed through 2013, the Rangers might entertain trading him reasonably.

At 19, he'd instantly be the best shortstop in the Reds organization.

I traded for Elvis Andrus when I was playing Baseball Mogul 2007 over the winter. :)

jojo
08-15-2008, 03:38 PM
I was reading a couple days ago that the Rangers may make him available for starting pitching. I'd offer Homer for Andrus and a lesser prospect.

Given Homer's option status, I'd consider that too.

jojo
08-15-2008, 03:39 PM
I traded for Elvis Andrus when I was playing Baseball Mogul 2007 over the winter. :)

How's that working out for you?

RedsManRick
08-15-2008, 03:54 PM
I was reading a couple days ago that the Rangers may make him available for starting pitching. I'd offer Homer for Andrus and a lesser prospect.

In a heartbeat.

nate
08-15-2008, 03:57 PM
I traded for Elvis Andrus when I was playing Baseball Mogul 2007 over the winter. :)

Oddly, whether I play Mogul or OOTP, I always end up with Elvis Andrus somehow.

Johnny Footstool
08-15-2008, 04:39 PM
How's that working out for you?

Good, not great. He hits about .300, OBP's around .340, slugs around .380, steals about 20 bases a year, and fields pretty well.

flyer85
08-15-2008, 05:08 PM
BTW, my answer is Sean Rodriguez

jojo
08-15-2008, 05:23 PM
BTW, my answer is Sean Rodriguez

OMG, he'd be like the prototypical Red.

oneupper
08-15-2008, 05:52 PM
After reading this thread I would like to come out in defense of Jeff Keppinger.

I'll agree he may not be a full time solution at SS, but lets not throw him under the bus because of his recent drop in production at the plate.

In his first 412 AB as a RED: BA .330
In his latest 145 AB (after coming off the DL with a busted patela): .193

In 2100 minor league ABs .322

You've gotta think or at least entertain the possibility that something other than "teh suck" is going on with Jeff's hitting.

Make him a supersub...or put him in a platoon. or whatever (trade him without undervaluing him).

/rant

Chip R
08-15-2008, 05:58 PM
After reading this thread I would like to come out in defense of Jeff Keppinger.

I'll agree he may not be a full time solution at SS, but lets not throw him under the bus because of his recent drop in production at the plate.

In his first 412 AB as a RED: BA .330
In his latest 145 AB (after coming off the DL with a busted patela): .193

In 2100 minor league ABs .322

You've gotta think or at least entertain the possibility that something other than "teh suck" is going on with Jeff's hitting.

Make him a supersub...or put him in a platoon. or whatever (trade him without undervaluing him).

/rant


That's fine. But what about his clones?

boognish
08-16-2008, 10:36 AM
I think "failure" is pretty harsh unless you actually considered him to be any more than a temporary solution.


I think it fits, we have tons of people here and in the paper saying Kepp needed to take over 3rd when A-Gon came back, now at least we have all seen he's just a bench guy.

What I meant is in alignment with both opinions here...he has his uses, but is miscast as a starting SS for an MLB team. His offense does not make up for a lack of range, and the deficiency is all the more glaring when he goes through a rough patch BA wise.

If one thing comes from the rest of the year regarding the SS question, I hope it is Hairston proving to even Dusty Baker that he also is not a SS.

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2008, 03:00 AM
Phillips: 'I'm a 2B'

How about Brandon Phillips at shortstop next year? What does Brandon Phillips think about it?

"Nobody from the Reds has talked to me about it," he said. "I'm a second baseman. We'll be getting Alex Gonzalez back next year, and other than Omar Vizquel, Juan Castro and John McDonald, he's the best shortstop I ever played with."

What if Gonzalez's knee isn't better or what if Gonzalez is traded? Phillips signed as a shortstop and played shortstop all through his minor-league career with the Indians, but moved to second because Vizquel was at short.

"I don't see the point in me going over there, especially with Alex Gonzalez there," Phillips said. "I don't write the lineup; I just play. I could play any position if I worked my butt off and put my mind to it. When the Reds traded for me, they told me I'd be a utility guy and had me working in the outfield. I could play any position they want me to do."

Phillips paused for a long period, then said, "I'm a second baseman, man. I am a second baseman. If it comes to me going over there, I'll welcome it. But I'm a second baseman."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/08/23/ddn082308spredsnotes.html

Topcat
08-23-2008, 03:59 AM
Not sure who Mentioned it But HU would be a wonderful addition and for what could be a reasonably priced acquisition.

camisadelgolf
08-23-2008, 06:40 AM
The average OPS for a Major League shortstop is .704. In 2007, AGon OPSed .793 for the Reds, and although he made more errors than he usually does (regressing to the mean after 2006, I think), he still looked like an average-at-worse defensive shortstop. If he can produce like he did in 2007, as hard as it is to accept, he would actually be one of the top-ten shortstops in MLB.

jojo
08-23-2008, 09:34 AM
Harang for Jimmy Rollins as a principle part of a deal with the other details (like the lightning bolts being shot out his arse) left up to Jocketty.....

Running summary of some of my thoughts on short:
Reds really have no in house solutions for the middle infield
target Hu
target Andrus
if possible sign Ellis to a 3yr deal/move Phillips to short
Harang for Rollins

Krusty
08-23-2008, 09:34 AM
As some have mentioned, the money the Reds will be paying Gonzalez will have him as the starter in 2009 with Keppinger, and possibly Hairston as the backup.

Longterm?

Highlifeman21
08-23-2008, 09:42 AM
Brandon Phillips.

Then sign Orlando Hudson to play second ('course I just blew the FA budget on Milton Bradley on another thread...)

I wanna see how Hudson's wrist heals before I'm committing big money and multiple years to the O Dog.

Believe me, I like O Dog more than I like Denorfia (I know, no one probably believes that, but it's really true!), but he messed his wrist up something fierce, which could completely negate his ridiculously awesome D.

But, if O Dog bounces back with a clean bill of health, Phillips to SS and O Dog as our 2B would be high at the top of my list.

Highlifeman21
08-23-2008, 09:47 AM
Phillips: 'I'm a 2B'

How about Brandon Phillips at shortstop next year? What does Brandon Phillips think about it?

"Nobody from the Reds has talked to me about it," he said. "I'm a second baseman. We'll be getting Alex Gonzalez back next year, and other than Omar Vizquel, Juan Castro and John McDonald, he's the best shortstop I ever played with."

What if Gonzalez's knee isn't better or what if Gonzalez is traded? Phillips signed as a shortstop and played shortstop all through his minor-league career with the Indians, but moved to second because Vizquel was at short.

"I don't see the point in me going over there, especially with Alex Gonzalez there," Phillips said. "I don't write the lineup; I just play. I could play any position if I worked my butt off and put my mind to it. When the Reds traded for me, they told me I'd be a utility guy and had me working in the outfield. I could play any position they want me to do."

Phillips paused for a long period, then said, "I'm a second baseman, man. I am a second baseman. If it comes to me going over there, I'll welcome it. But I'm a second baseman."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/08/23/ddn082308spredsnotes.html

Good to see Phillips is saying all the right things to become that team leader...... :cool:

lollipopcurve
08-23-2008, 10:21 AM
Good to see Phillips is saying all the right things to become that team leader..

Sounds fine to me. He pays respect to Gonzo, says he'd play wherever if asked to.

Unlike Arroyo, who talks to the press about which positions need to be shored up.

Reds1
08-23-2008, 10:22 AM
If kepp hits like he can. Lead the team in RBIs before hurt he still might ge consideration because this team needs offense.

corkedbat
08-23-2008, 11:57 AM
I expect AGon to start at SS next year. If so, I'd like to see them add a young "SS of the Future" to take over by 2010. I like the idea of a Bailey for Andrus deal (expanded to include Teagarden or Ramierez and possibly Nelson Cruz).

If AGon is not able to return, I like the Phillips to SS idea with Hudson at 2B if healthy (Kepp or Valika if he isn't). I'd also consider approaching the Padres about Khalil Greene too.

One other possibilty might be Phillips being dealt in a blockbuster during the offseason with Kepp, Hairston, or Valika (and possibly even Frazier later) @ 2B and AGon or an acquisition @ SS (I don't see Janish as more than an emergency injury replacement).

RANDY IN INDY
08-23-2008, 12:23 PM
Nobody from the Reds has talked to me about it," he said. "I'm a second baseman. We'll be getting Alex Gonzalez back next year, and other than Omar Vizquel, Juan Castro and John McDonald, he's the best shortstop I ever played with."


There's your answer.:D

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2008, 12:44 PM
If kepp hits like he can. Lead the team in RBIs before hurt he still might ge consideration because this team needs offense.

Keppinger would need to hit like A-Rod before I'd consider him at SS next season. He's incredibly bad there. I think the Statue of Liberty could cover more ground at shortstop than Keppinger. I'd really like to see the Reds acquire a young SS like Chin-lung Hu and use Keppinger off the bench. The defense improves and the bench is strengthened.

Reds1
08-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Keppinger would need to hit like A-Rod before I'd consider him at SS next season. He's incredibly bad there. I think the Statue of Liberty could cover more ground at shortstop than Keppinger. I'd really like to see the Reds acquire a young SS like Chin-lung Hu and use Keppinger off the bench. The defense improves and the bench is strengthened.

Well sure that would be better, but not sure the options available. The good defense guys suck at hitting and we do need offense to win. That's all I"m saying.

Jpup
08-23-2008, 01:01 PM
Either way, Jeff Keppinger needs to be a Red in '09. I think the guy can really hit. Yeah, he went through a long funk, but he's getting better of late.

RANDY IN INDY
08-23-2008, 02:28 PM
Interesting how many balls Brandon Phillips fields on the shortstop side of second, that most other teams shortstops are fielding. No range from any of the Reds shortstops. With Phillips arm and range, there is no question that he would be the Reds best shortstop. Sounds like he doesn't really want any part of it from everything that I have read. The position is more physically demanding and I wonder if he thinks it will affect his offensive statistics.

Reds1
08-23-2008, 03:49 PM
Interesting how many balls Brandon Phillips fields on the shortstop side of second, that most other teams shortstops are fielding. No range from any of the Reds shortstops. With Phillips arm and range, there is no question that he would be the Reds best shortstop. Sounds like he doesn't really want any part of it from everything that I have read. The position is more physically demanding and I wonder if he thinks it will affect his offensive statistics.

NOt sure, but kepp at 2nd and phillips at SS makes sense, but at this point not sure if you mess much with Philllips. He is looking very comfortable.

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2008, 04:06 PM
I've changed my stance on moving Phillips to SS. At first I was for it but after more thought I'd rather they just keep him at second base and acquire a young shortstop via trade. Phillips would probably only be an average to slightly above average defensive shortstop and I just don't it's worth weakening the second base defensive for that. Keep Phillips at SS and acquire a guy like Hu and the middle infield defense is the best we've had since the days of Pokey Reese/Barry Larkin.

RANDY IN INDY
08-23-2008, 07:48 PM
I'm not sure what Phillips might turn out to be if he made the transition to shortstop, but any particular reason that you think that he would only be average to slightly above average defensively?

OnBaseMachine
08-23-2008, 08:00 PM
I'm not sure what Phillips might turn out to be if he made the transition to shortstop, but any particular reason that you think that he would only be average to slightly above average defensively?

I was reading a Baseball America scouting report on Phillips from about two or three years ago and it basically said while Phillips has a strong enough arm to play shortstop, his range is better suited for second base where it's excellent there compared to just average or slightly better at short.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2008, 01:49 PM
I'm bringing this thread back to the top because I have another name I'd like to throw out there: Erick Aybar of the Angels. The Angels already have Maicer Izturis and Brandon Wood and may look to trade Aybar. Aybar is a 24-year old switch hitter with plus defensive tools at shortstop. He's got great range and a very strong arm. This year he has only hit .276/.314/.381 - .696 with the Angels but he did hit a solid .312/.357/.453 - .810 OPS in his minor league career, so there's a little potential in his bat. Aybar/Phillips would be one of the better defensive middle infields in all of baseball.

corkedbat
09-19-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm bringing this thread back to the top because I have another name I'd like to throw out there: Erick Aybar of the Angels. The Angels already have Maicer Izturis and Brandon Wood and may look to trade Aybar. Aybar is a 24-year old switch hitter with plus defensive tools at shortstop. He's got great range and a very strong arm. This year he has only hit .276/.314/.381 - .696 with the Angels but he did hit a solid .312/.357/.453 - .810 OPS in his minor league career, so there's a little potential in his bat. Aybar/Phillips would be one of the better defensive middle infields in all of baseball.

I like Andrus or Aybar. Chances are that Gonzalez is the starting SS to start the season next year because of his salary, if nothing else. I believe Andrus was at AA for the Rangers this year. If you could work a deal for him you could start him out at Louisville and hope Gonzalez has a fast start to prove he's healthy and hopefully stir up a little interest.

Ideally you could deal AGon in a deadline deal and bring up Andrus for the secoond half.

bucksfan2
09-19-2008, 03:14 PM
A guy who has always intrigued me was Orlando Cabrera. His contract is up this season with the White Sox and he is going to be 34 in November but I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds take a flier on him for a 2-3 year deal.

Johnny Footstool
09-19-2008, 03:55 PM
Aybar is the type of player the Reds should target -- young, cheap, expendable to his current team, with some degree of upside. I don't think the price to acquire him would be terribly steep.

Will M
09-19-2008, 04:04 PM
Aybar is the type of player the Reds should target -- young, cheap, expendable to his current team, with some degree of upside. I don't think the price to acquire him would be terribly steep.

I too like Aybar but the Angels hate to trade their young talent. Other than the Tex trade they have been anti trade the last few years.

RedsManRick
09-19-2008, 04:28 PM
I really don't see the point of trading for a defense first SS who can't OPS over .700. Aybar would be fine I guess -- the best SS on our team for 2009. But what are you going to trade to acquire him and just how much of an improvement is he over Alex Gonzalez or a not unlucky Jeff Keppinger? 10-15 net runs?

*BaseClogger*
09-19-2008, 05:43 PM
A guy who has always intrigued me was Orlando Cabrera. His contract is up this season with the White Sox and he is going to be 34 in November but I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds take a flier on him for a 2-3 year deal.

Sounds like Alex Gonzalez all over again to me...

Mario-Rijo
09-19-2008, 09:20 PM
A guy who has always intrigued me was Orlando Cabrera. His contract is up this season with the White Sox and he is going to be 34 in November but I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds take a flier on him for a 2-3 year deal.

Yeah I tossed his name out there earlier but got no bites, maybe i'm just on a lot of ignore lists. Anyhow Orlando fits us pretty well as he would be a decent #2 hitter and plays good defense. The problem however with him is he is DeAngelo Jimenez light in the clubhouse, which could be a bad match for this young team and it's chemistry. Plus his age and likely expected salary wouldn't necc. fit.

lollipopcurve
09-19-2008, 09:46 PM
The problem however with him is he is DeAngelo Jimenez light in the clubhouse,

Since when? His rep while with the Red Sox was very good. I'd like to see him on a 2-year deal -- he very well may take it to play with Jolbert. High energy player with a solid glove and bat. The question would be his age...

Mario-Rijo
09-19-2008, 10:23 PM
I'm bringing this thread back to the top because I have another name I'd like to throw out there: Erick Aybar of the Angels. The Angels already have Maicer Izturis and Brandon Wood and may look to trade Aybar. Aybar is a 24-year old switch hitter with plus defensive tools at shortstop. He's got great range and a very strong arm. This year he has only hit .276/.314/.381 - .696 with the Angels but he did hit a solid .312/.357/.453 - .810 OPS in his minor league career, so there's a little potential in his bat. Aybar/Phillips would be one of the better defensive middle infields in all of baseball.

Actually I think that Aybar is the guy they prefer to keep long term. However I have been touting Macier Izturis for quite a while as the most ideal fit out there. His defense is very good and his offensive approach would be good for a decent #2 hitter in our lineup. He needs some work on hitting off of RHP's where he struggles some, but he works the count from either side and is hard to K and takes a fair share of BB's. Heck he even has little bit of pop in his bat (topped .400 Slg twice) and has good speed.

His career line:
.272 BA, .337 OBP, .381 Slg

He's young enough (just turned 28 on 9-12) to give us some good years but old enough to be a good solid stop gap until we find a potential superstar at the position if we are ever so lucky again. Heck he could turn out to be well above average all round SS, but hasn't been given an opportunity to play a full season in his 5 ML seasons (3.038 ML service time coming into '08).

I think the guy in a full season could give ya a .750 OPS consistently for the next 3-4 years while playing good defense and good baserunning (all the Angels run well).

I should also add he won't likely be as expensive to get as Aybar.

Mario-Rijo
09-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Since when? His rep while with the Red Sox was very good. I'd like to see him on a 2-year deal -- he very well may take it to play with Jolbert. High energy player with a solid glove and bat. The question would be his age...

I read an article about it a month or so ago, apparently he's a bit anti-social for his current team. I assumed that's just him and how he's always been, maybe I got him wrong and it's just these teammates he doesn't like, IDK.

blumj
09-19-2008, 10:33 PM
There were rumors about him when he was in Boston involving an off the field issue.

Spitball
09-19-2008, 10:53 PM
I love Aybar, but Brandon Wood is the one who seems to be on the low right now. I have to say this guy's defense is very underrated and his offensive potential, though not what it once appeared, could be superior in the National League and in the Reds' ballpark.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2008, 10:59 PM
I love Aybar, but Brandon Wood is the one who seems to be on the low right now. I have to say this guy's defense is very underrated and his offensive potential, though not what it once appeared, could be superior in the National League and in the Reds' ballpark.

I would love to have Brandon Wood but I don't think the Angels will deal him unless they get knocked over with an offer. Aybar may be easier to acquire.

Spitball
09-20-2008, 10:05 AM
I would love to have Brandon Wood but I don't think the Angels will deal him unless they get knocked over with an offer. Aybar may be easier to acquire.

Actually, I think Angels are more inclined to hold onto Aybar at this point. I'd rather have Aybar. Wood's stock has fallen considerably from its lofty status of a few years ago.

Big Klu
09-21-2008, 09:55 PM
A guy who has always intrigued me was Orlando Cabrera. His contract is up this season with the White Sox and he is going to be 34 in November but I wouldn't mind seeing the Reds take a flier on him for a 2-3 year deal.


Yeah I tossed his name out there earlier but got no bites, maybe i'm just on a lot of ignore lists. Anyhow Orlando fits us pretty well as he would be a decent #2 hitter and plays good defense. The problem however with him is he is DeAngelo Jimenez light in the clubhouse, which could be a bad match for this young team and it's chemistry. Plus his age and likely expected salary wouldn't necc. fit.


Since when? His rep while with the Red Sox was very good. I'd like to see him on a 2-year deal -- he very well may take it to play with Jolbert. High energy player with a solid glove and bat. The question would be his age...


I read an article about it a month or so ago, apparently he's a bit anti-social for his current team. I assumed that's just him and how he's always been, maybe I got him wrong and it's just these teammates he doesn't like, IDK.


There were rumors about him when he was in Boston involving an off the field issue.

As lollipopcurve said, maybe being on the same club as his brother (who by all accounts seems to be a positive clubhouse influence) might be beneficial to Orlando Cabrera.

Of course, I'm not sure that Jolbert will be on the team next year. (He's a serviceable utilityman, but the Reds have a lot of those.) I'm also not sure that a 34-y.o. Orlando is the answer at SS. I wouldn't arbitrarily dismiss either of them, but I'm not sure about the fit.

OnBaseMachine
09-25-2008, 10:52 PM
Tonight's game was a great example of just how badly the Reds need a shortstop. In the second innings of tonight's game the Astros had a runner of first with one out. Brad Ausmus hit a doubleplay ball to Keppinger but he bobbled the ball and was only able to get one out. Instead of the inning been over, the Astros were given a second chance and they capitalized with three runs. In the very next inning, the Astros had runners on first and second with two outs. Ausmus again hit a groundball to Keppinger but he struggled to get the ball out of his glove and Ausmus reach base. Instead of the inning been over the Astros again get a second chance and score two more runs. On a night when Cueto didn't have his good stuff he couldn't afford his defense giving away outs. That's five runs that could have been avoided.

AmarilloRed
10-09-2008, 09:29 PM
J.J. Hardy looks like he will be available in a trade:


Hardy, 26, has batted .280 over the past two seasons, averaging 25 homers and 77 RBIs. But the Brewers may look to trade him because of the emergence of prospect Alcides Escobar.

But there is one problem with penciling him into your scorebook: If the Brewers deal him, they are expected to ask for starting pitchers.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081005/SPORTS02/810050469/1050

The price would be high, but see what the Brewers are asking for.

schroomytunes
10-09-2008, 09:49 PM
Well as far as our SS in 2009 goes, I think it will be Gonzo, but some guys I like in the group are in order:

1)JJ Hardy-young, has pop, but will come steep!
2)E.Aybar-good glove, plus tools, young, again steep!
3)M.Izturis-28, average bat, good defender...most ideal fit!
4)K.Greene-inconsistant bat, low .OBP, high salary...I'd pass, but if Cla Merideth would be included than I would kick the tires!

fearofpopvol1
10-09-2008, 10:19 PM
How about Arroyo for Hardy? And if it takes another lower prospect, that too.

Spring~Fields
10-09-2008, 10:34 PM
How about Arroyo for Hardy? And if it takes another lower prospect, that too.

I am not arguing one way or the other toward your point, your idea might be a great idea but, can’t we get more for a pitcher than just Hardy? Especially with teams, even the Reds needing starting pitchers that can keep them in the game.

I was kind of dreaming of sending Arroyo to Texas for one of those catchers, plus Nelson Cruz and Chris Davis, I mean Jocketty sending him and bringing back a haul. :)

What would Billy Beane get for Arroyo or a Harang?

mth123
10-09-2008, 11:04 PM
I am not arguing one way or the other toward your point, your idea might be a great idea but, canít we get more for a pitcher than just Hardy? Especially with teams, even the Reds needing starting pitchers that can keep them in the game.

I was kind of dreaming of sending Arroyo to Texas for one of those catchers, plus Nelson Cruz and Chris Davis, I mean Jocketty sending him and bringing back a haul. :)

What would Billy Beane get for Arroyo or a Harang?

Not sure. Hardy is a solid SS who adds to the offense and Arroyo makes a lot of money. I think its pretty even. Both guys would be under Reds control for two years, but I'd like to keep Arroyo.

Any two of Bailey, Thompson, Maloney, Ramirez and Owings, plus Stubbs and Janish and the Reds take Bill Hall's contract. Hall plays LF or 1B until Alonso/Frazier/Dorn comes along and Hardy fixes the SS position.

The Brewers add two potential rotation arms, a CF to take-over for Cameron in 2010 and the money freed up helps them to make a run at keeping CC. Janish gives them an IF back since they are dealling two.

Spring~Fields
10-09-2008, 11:27 PM
Not sure. Hardy is a solid SS who adds to the offense and Arroyo makes a lot of money. I think its pretty even. Both guys would be under Reds control for two years, but I'd like to keep Arroyo.

Any two of Bailey, Thompson, Maloney, Ramirez and Owings, plus Stubbs and Janish and the Reds take Bill Hall's contract. Hall plays LF or 1B until Alonso/Frazier/Dorn comes along and Hardy fixes the SS position.

The Brewers add two potential rotation arms, a CF to take-over for Cameron in 2010 and the money freed up helps them to make a run at keeping CC. Janish gives them an IF back since they are dealling two.

Sure we are optimistic that the pitching for the Reds is on itís way up.

Still, this one year small sample hasnít convinced me that the Reds have sufficient starting pitching yet.

Which Arroyo or Harang do the Reds see next year?

Was Harangís problems really cured?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5181

Arroyoís?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4416

Does Volquez regress maybe?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6401

Does Cueto who we think had a good year for a young rookie, improve next year for sure?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=28955

Is Owings going to improve over his career to date? Was that really just a minor problem he had last year?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=28660

Bailey, Ramirez, Thompson, Maloney, Livingston ? Will they be more than what they were last year? Hope, think so? I donít know. Are Harang and Arroyo on the verge of a decline in their careers? I don't know.

I just feel that if Walt Jocketty is going to risk trading away pitching that he might need, then he needs to have several answers to needs for the team coming back his direction, like the GM in Oakland would.

Mario-Rijo
10-10-2008, 12:36 AM
I'd say Harang is back. Comparing his 1st full month of the season to his last full month of the season they are nearly identical in every way. His 1st full month he was obviously himself, so I don't see any reason to believe he isn't just fine now. Sure his K's were down a tad and due to that he gave up a couple more shots but that could just say he got a little tired at the end of the season.

Arroyo decline, In what way? He is a guy that relies on guile and finesse and not velocity. Unless he loses his touch I expect a big peak, a big valley (usually around June) and alot of fair stuff in the middle next year and the end result will be pretty much the same as usual.

I expect a bit of a step back from Volquez just due to how well he did early on this season and then leveled out from mid season or so on. I fully expect a sub 4.00 era however, he goes after guys with good stuff and he keeps the ball in the park. Perhaps he and Cueto won't get squeezed so often next year, the 2nd half it seemed like almost every game they were getting a lot of bad calls. I expect Cueto learned alot about trusting his stuff this season so I expect a sub 5.00 era from him also.

If you add a solid vet like Randy Wolf this is an above average starter or better in every slot of the rotation to begin the season. Sans injuries I like their chances. The BP though is what I would be concerned with a bit but I think there is enough talent there to warrant optimisim.

WebScorpion
10-10-2008, 11:15 AM
I really don't like Hardy as a SS...I really don't think he has the range for a SS, but that's just me. I love the idea of trading with the Angels...they've got 3 or 4 guys who could be the best SS in our system immediately. And 3 of them are Major League ready...or very, very close. I think Aybar is their SS of the future choice, as evidenced by him playing there throughout the playoffs, but the guy I really want is Sean Rodriquez. My second choice, and probably the easiest to acquire would be Brandon Wood. He and Rodriguez both have great OBP skills throughout the minors, but Wood just can't seem to put it together at the big league level. The reason, I prefer S-Rod is he's got the most power...he would be devastating in the GAB. :eek: I'm guessing Walt would probably prefer Wood, who is the better defender.

I think Walt will prepare to go with AGon as the 2009 SS, but I'm sure he's smart enough to get an insurance policy. Any one of these 3 guys would fit the bill. :thumbup:

PS - I believe Elvis Andrus and Reid Brignac would also fit the bill, but I prefer the superior OBP skills of Wood and S-Rod. BTW, S-Rod's Dad was A-Rod's High School hitting coach. ;)

Will M
10-10-2008, 03:34 PM
since we are going to be paying Gonzo and we need a long term answer at SS should we be looking for a youngster rather than guys like Furcal and Hardy? I am thinking of guys like Elvis from Texas (blanking on his last name) or the former top prospect Brandon Wood. that way they could be eased into the role and if they struggle we have Gonzo to fill in temporarilly.
it may make little sense to spend big money on a SS and also pay Gonzo $6M to ride the pine.

what about one teams failed prospect for anothers: Bailey for Wood?

Mario-Rijo
10-18-2008, 07:58 PM
This has some on Jr but I am posting it about Cabrera who I would look into to be our starter at SS. I just wonder what it would cost us probably more than what I would give but he is still one of the better options both offensively and defensively that's available.


Griffey, Cabrera likely to move on
Money, needs will play role in whether vets return to White Sox
By Scott Merkin / MLB.com

CHICAGO -- Orlando Cabrera and Ken Griffey Jr. just might have played their last games as part of the White Sox in Monday's finale of the American League Division Series loss to the Rays.
Then again, both veterans left the door open for a return in 2009 and beyond.


"It's an option," said Cabrera when asked directly about the White Sox. "They made me feel welcome here. So, we'll see what happens."
"Yeah, I want to play next year," said Griffey, who completed his 20th season in the Majors. "Would I like to come back [to the White Sox]? Yes. But we'll see what happens in 2009."

Most likely, neither player figures into the White Sox plans, though for different reasons. Cabrera earned $9 million in 2008 at the end of a four-year, $32 million deal and certainly will test the free-agent market. The White Sox probably will move Alexei Ramirez to shortstop, with rising Minor Leaguer Chris Getz or a veteran stopgap moving to second.

Cabrera had an uneven season, more so away from the on-field action. He came to the White Sox through an offseason trade with the Angels, holding the leader moniker as he entered Spring Training. That characterization didn't exactly play out, with trouble starting early on. For example, Cabrera called the pressbox to get two errors charged to him changed to hits.

To Cabrera's credit, he did hit .281, scored 93 runs and played in all but one game. He also did an admirable job anchoring the leadoff spot, a lineup slot he previously wasn't used to having.

The off-the-field issues also included Cabrera calling out his teammates to MLB.com during the regular season's second-to-last weekend, after the team lost to the Royals. Cabrera said he didn't see the fire in his team once it fell behind and termed the effort in the loss to Kansas City as pathetic. They were words that might have been true, but didn't sit well with his teammates.

When asked about the situation after Monday's loss, Cabrera expressed no regrets.

"I wouldn't change one thing -- not anything the whole year," Cabrera said. "Everything worked out, and I enjoyed myself. I saw a lot of things I haven't seen before, with the way they carried the team and they were so relaxed and enjoyed themselves. It was a new experience for me, but I liked it in a positive way."

Griffey has a $16 million club option for 2009, but the White Sox already have agreed to split the $4 million buyout with the Reds. With Jim Thome back at designated hitter and the White Sox looking for a speed upgrade, it's unlikely Griffey will be brought back -- even a smaller sum -- to play center.

If Monday was the end, though, Griffey, much like Cabrera, wouldn't change a thing about his nine-week stay with the White Sox.

"I had a blast," said Griffey, who hit .260 with three home runs and 18 RBIs with Chicago. "The city, the fans, I had one of the greatest times I had as a pro athlete in the last two months."

OnBaseMachine
10-18-2008, 08:23 PM
I don't want any part of Cabrera. His defense rated as average this season and he'll be 34 years old next season. He's no longer the strong fielder he once was and his bat was weak this season. I'd pass on him.

Mario-Rijo
10-18-2008, 09:22 PM
since we are going to be paying Gonzo and we need a long term answer at SS should we be looking for a youngster rather than guys like Furcal and Hardy? I am thinking of guys like Elvis from Texas (blanking on his last name) or the former top prospect Brandon Wood. that way they could be eased into the role and if they struggle we have Gonzo to fill in temporarilly.
it may make little sense to spend big money on a SS and also pay Gonzo $6M to ride the pine.

what about one teams failed prospect for anothers: Bailey for Wood?

I definitely feel that we are jumping the gun a bit on assuming that the F.O. will be looking for a SS at all this offseason. We don't know Gonzo's status and Walt isn't tipping his hand much. I suspect Walt feels he has enough currently for this not to be the top priority in the offseason. I'm sure he knows it's something he must address in the next year or so but not a bigger priority than a big bat and a catcher which I think will be his top 2 priorities along with re-signing/signing a couple of BP arms. I would imagine that if a good deal presented itself he wouldn't pass it up but that's a huge if when it comes to finding a good pro SS. If you look around at all major league rosters there is a lot of teams that have need of a SS and not many who have enough depth there to make a deal at all. I tried to make a list of teams who have even 2 guys who conceivably could play in the bigs next year and who could be at least decent both offensively and defensively and the list is awfully short.

LAA - Aybar, Izturis (Izturis is the way to go)
Mil - Hardy, Escobar (I am not convinced Hardy is gone, Escobar at 2B likely)
Bos - Lugo, Lowrie (Lugo is probably ava. but who wants him)
Cle - Peralta, Cabrera (This is a team to go after for a SS)
TB - Bartlett, Brignac
LAD - Furcal, Hu (If Furcal is re-signed)
Col - Tulowitzki, Barmes

Those are somewhat shaky lists in a few cases and I may have missed a couple of upper minors guys who are ready that I am not really that familiar with. Most other teams have one or less realistic options. An interesting possibility would be Peralta who could fit at SS and give us some pop. How about this series of deals.

Reds Get: Peralta

Indians get: Cordero

Then
Reds get: Street

A's get: Encarnacion, Roenicke

Reds move Gonzo to 3B for all or the majority of '09 or until Frazier is ready whichever comes 1st. As a matter of fact I would probably try the A's deal 1st so then I could ask for Asdrubal Cabrera if the Indians asked for Street. What do you all think?

Will M
10-18-2008, 11:15 PM
I definitely feel that we are jumping the gun a bit on assuming that the F.O. will be looking for a SS at all this offseason. We don't know Gonzo's status and Walt isn't tipping his hand much. I suspect Walt feels he has enough currently for this not to be the top priority in the offseason. I'm sure he knows it's something he must address in the next year or so but not a bigger priority than a big bat and a catcher which I think will be his top 2 priorities along with re-signing/signing a couple of BP arms. I would imagine that if a good deal presented itself he wouldn't pass it up but that's a huge if when it comes to finding a good pro SS. If you look around at all major league rosters there is a lot of teams that have need of a SS and not many who have enough depth there to make a deal at all. I tried to make a list of teams who have even 2 guys who conceivably could play in the bigs next year and who could be at least decent both offensively and defensively and the list is awfully short.

LAA - Aybar, Izturis (Izturis is the way to go)
Mil - Hardy, Escobar (I am not convinced Hardy is gone, Escobar at 2B likely)
Bos - Lugo, Lowrie (Lugo is probably ava. but who wants him)
Cle - Peralta, Cabrera (This is a team to go after for a SS)
TB - Bartlett, Brignac
LAD - Furcal, Hu (If Furcal is re-signed)
Col - Tulowitzki, Barmes

Those are somewhat shaky lists in a few cases and I may have missed a couple of upper minors guys who are ready that I am not really that familiar with. Most other teams have one or less realistic options. An interesting possibility would be Peralta who could fit at SS and give us some pop. How about this series of deals.

Reds Get: Peralta

Indians get: Cordero

Then
Reds get: Street

A's get: Encarnacion, Roenicke

Reds move Gonzo to 3B for all or the majority of '09 or until Frazier is ready whichever comes 1st. As a matter of fact I would probably try the A's deal 1st so then I could ask for Asdrubal Cabrera if the Indians asked for Street. What do you all think?

I am one who believes EE won't ever cut it at 3B defensively. To basically trade EE/closer for Peralta/closer is a plus move for the Reds. The Reds offesnively & pitching wise are about the same but improved defensively at a key position.

Will M
10-18-2008, 11:25 PM
Mario-Rijo:

the more i think of it the more i like your idea. not only could the Reds pencil in Gonzo at 3B for 2009 but Valaika (who isn't really at SS) or Rosales could win the 3B job. Add in Frazier & Soto in the future and we have a lot of guys who could play 3B but few who can play SS.

AmarilloRed
10-19-2008, 01:35 AM
I definitely feel that we are jumping the gun a bit on assuming that the F.O. will be looking for a SS at all this offseason. We don't know Gonzo's status and Walt isn't tipping his hand much. I suspect Walt feels he has enough currently for this not to be the top priority in the offseason. I'm sure he knows it's something he must address in the next year or so but not a bigger priority than a big bat and a catcher which I think will be his top 2 priorities along with re-signing/signing a couple of BP arms. I would imagine that if a good deal presented itself he wouldn't pass it up but that's a huge if when it comes to finding a good pro SS. If you look around at all major league rosters there is a lot of teams that have need of a SS and not many who have enough depth there to make a deal at all. I tried to make a list of teams who have even 2 guys who conceivably could play in the bigs next year and who could be at least decent both offensively and defensively and the list is awfully short.

LAA - Aybar, Izturis (Izturis is the way to go)
Mil - Hardy, Escobar (I am not convinced Hardy is gone, Escobar at 2B likely)
Bos - Lugo, Lowrie (Lugo is probably ava. but who wants him)
Cle - Peralta, Cabrera (This is a team to go after for a SS)
TB - Bartlett, Brignac
LAD - Furcal, Hu (If Furcal is re-signed)
Col - Tulowitzki, Barmes

Those are somewhat shaky lists in a few cases and I may have missed a couple of upper minors guys who are ready that I am not really that familiar with. Most other teams have one or less realistic options. An interesting possibility would be Peralta who could fit at SS and give us some pop. How about this series of deals.

Reds Get: Peralta

Indians get: Cordero

Then
Reds get: Street

A's get: Encarnacion, Roenicke

Reds move Gonzo to 3B for all or the majority of '09 or until Frazier is ready whichever comes 1st. As a matter of fact I would probably try the A's deal 1st so then I could ask for Asdrubal Cabrera if the Indians asked for Street. What do you all think?

Doesn't Cordero have a full no-trade clause?

Mario-Rijo
10-19-2008, 03:33 AM
Doesn't Cordero have a full no-trade clause?

Yes he does through '09 (limited thereafter), but who is to say he wouldn't go to Cleveland. Of course we could simply keep him and deal for Street and turn Street + around for Peralta or Cabrera. I assume the Indians would rather keep Cabrera with his age and the fact he is cheaper and probably has a higher overall ceiling. Any way you slice it Peralta makes for a good target at SS for us. Question is what to trade for him, Roenicke + Bray + Valaika would that be enough and would it make sense for us? I'm just tossing around ideas trying to look at some fresh targets.

Or you could just take a flyer on Bobby Crosby, who finally made it through a season physically this year only to be told late in the season that his playing time would be reduced. Certainly he's worth nearly nothing right. Actually come to think of it he would be a perfect target for St. Louis to take on and turn him around a bit, their coaches have a knack for doing that.

Big Klu
10-19-2008, 02:52 PM
Why would the Reds want Peralta? I see the Tribe play on TV a lot, and Jhonny Peralta is NOT a good defensive shortstop!

Mario-Rijo
10-19-2008, 02:59 PM
Why would the Reds want Peralta? I see the Tribe play on TV a lot, and Jhonny Peralta is NOT a good defensive shortstop!

I guess my response to that would be is he a bad one? Meaning is he a worse overall option as Keppinger or Janish? When I say trade for a SS that is me assuming we come to a point where we realize Gonzo isn't going to make it back. So therefore those guys would be our options.

Big Klu
10-19-2008, 03:15 PM
Defensively, he is on par with Keppinger, but offensively he is more like Alex Gonzalez.

I would rather go with the in-house options of Gonzalez/Keppinger/Janish/(Hairston?) than use resources to acquire Peralta.

Mario-Rijo
10-19-2008, 05:00 PM
Defensively, he is on par with Keppinger, but offensively he is more like Alex Gonzalez.

I would rather go with the in-house options of Gonzalez/Keppinger/Janish/(Hairston?) than use resources to acquire Peralta.

Ouch I didn't realize he was that bad defensively. Similiar range or just overall?

Big Klu
10-19-2008, 06:27 PM
Ouch I didn't realize he was that bad defensively. Similiar range or just overall?

Similar range. Peralta has a stronger arm than Keppinger, but his range is not good at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribe move him to 3B in the near future, since Casey Blake is gone, and Andy Marte appears to be a dud. More than one Indians fan I know has told me that Cleveland made a mistake when they annointed Peralta--instead of Brandon Phillips--as the heir to Omar Vizquel at SS.

Mario-Rijo
10-19-2008, 09:09 PM
Similar range. Peralta has a stronger arm than Keppinger, but his range is not good at all. I wouldn't be surprised if the Tribe move him to 3B in the near future, since Casey Blake is gone, and Andy Marte appears to be a dud. More than one Indians fan I know has told me that Cleveland made a mistake when they annointed Peralta--instead of Brandon Phillips--as the heir to Omar Vizquel at SS.

Wow, then perhaps we should simply scratch them off the list. Asdrubal would then go to SS with Peralta at 3rd and Barfield at 2B. Josh Rodriguez in AA last year for them is probably the best defender they have at SS (near the bigs anyway) but is light with the stick and will be 24 before next opening day. So maybe they aren't such a good choice at all.

Will M
11-03-2008, 02:13 PM
Macier Itzuris of the Angels has been mentioned as a target ( the Angels have Aybar to play SS ). Do the Reds have anything the Angels want in trade that would match up with us getting Itzuris?

Mario-Rijo
11-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Macier Itzuris of the Angels has been mentioned as a target ( the Angels have Aybar to play SS ). Do the Reds have anything the Angels want in trade that would match up with us getting Itzuris?

Absolutely, prospects would get that done. No top 5 prospects but a guy like Maloney with a low level throw in (Jose Castro?) would probably get that done. Probably wouldn't even take that much if it weren't for SS's being so tough to get if you don't have one.

BTW Will I hate to be that guy but it's a pet peeve, it's Iz-turis. I did that with his brother until someone pointed it out to me.

Will M
11-03-2008, 05:03 PM
Absolutely, prospects would get that done. No top 5 prospects but a guy like Maloney with a low level throw in (Jose Castro?) would probably get that done. Probably wouldn't even take that much if it weren't for SS's being so tough to get if you don't have one.



if thats all it would take then i am all for getting him



BTW Will I hate to be that guy but it's a pet peeve, it's Iz-turis. I did that with his brother until someone pointed it out to me.

thanks. i probabaly butchered his first name too.

Roy Tucker
11-04-2008, 10:16 AM
Rafael Furcal, Edgar Renteria and Omar Vizquel all filed for free agency yesterday.

Probably because I liked him so much during his Cleveland stint, but I could see the Reds signing Vizquel to a 1 yr. deal as a backup to Gonzalez. Still has the leather, but his offense has declined. He did go .344/.397/.443/.840 in 61 September ABs though.

Having said that, I would expect Jocketty to take measures to find out definitively if Gonzalez is going to be able to play in 2009 over this off-season. The Reds just can't go into spring training with him being a major question mark and no backup beyond Keppinger. Well, they can, but it would be a foolish thing.

Chip R
11-04-2008, 11:46 AM
Having said that, I would expect Jocketty to take measures to find out definitively if Gonzalez is going to be able to play in 2009 over this off-season. The Reds just can't go into spring training with him being a major question mark and no backup beyond Keppinger. Well, they can, but it would be a foolish thing.


That's going to be easier said than done. Is he just going to have to take Gonzo's word that he'll be able to play 150 games in 09? This injury may be something that gets worse as the season goes on. Speaking like a cynic, Gonzo's got over 5 million reasons not to retire. If he plays winter ball and the Reds find out that he can't hack it, is it going to be too late to get someone like Furcal, Vizquel or Renteria?

*BaseClogger*
11-04-2008, 12:18 PM
I would inquire with the Rockies to see if one of Tulo or Clint Barmes is available...

BRM
11-04-2008, 12:23 PM
I would inquire with the Rockies to see if one of Tulo or Clint Barmes is available...

Barmes could probably be had. No way they deal Tulo.

*BaseClogger*
11-04-2008, 12:33 PM
Barmes could probably be had. No way they deal Tulo.

I didn't realize Barmes was a good fielder. He would be my target du jour right now...

BRM
11-04-2008, 12:42 PM
I didn't realize Barmes was a good fielder. He would be my target du jour right now...

Fielding Bible had him as the second best SS in baseball in 2006 and the 8th best second baseman in 2008. He can definitely play defense. He's another one with pretty extreme H/R splits though.

jojo
11-04-2008, 01:41 PM
Barmes is kind of like Phillips lite....

Roy Tucker
11-04-2008, 03:26 PM
That's going to be easier said than done. Is he just going to have to take Gonzo's word that he'll be able to play 150 games in 09? This injury may be something that gets worse as the season goes on. Speaking like a cynic, Gonzo's got over 5 million reasons not to retire. If he plays winter ball and the Reds find out that he can't hack it, is it going to be too late to get someone like Furcal, Vizquel or Renteria?

Oh, I know, it will be a difficult thing to find out. And you're right, there are a lot of reasons for Gonzalez to play his cards close to the vest. But he does get paid no matter what for 2009. How much he cooperates to determine his playing status for next year is anyone's guess. And he probably doesn't know either.

I guess that's all why they pay WJ the big bucks. I just hope he appropriately mitigates the Reds' 2009 SS risk.

bucksfan2
11-04-2008, 03:34 PM
Barmes is kind of like Phillips lite....

And thats such a bad thing?

I think Barmes would be a good target. He was on his way to ROY before he was injured doing something with Helton involving hunting/4 wheeling. Even if he is Phillips light he would provide a heck of an up the middle defensive combo. Combine that with Dickerson in CF and the Reds would be quite a bit better defensively than they were last year. Because Barmes is blocked by Tulo he could be had for cheaper. I wouldn't be too worried about H/R splits because I don't think there would be much of a drop off between Coors and GABP.

BRM
11-04-2008, 03:40 PM
Barmes isn't really being blocked by Tulo. He's likely to be their starting second baseman next year.