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RedLegSuperStar
08-18-2008, 04:05 PM
MLBTradeRumor.com -

The Reds will free up about $30MM in payroll, and Walt Jocketty plans to be active.



Jocketty shapes Reds' future
By Joe Strauss
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
08/18/2008

CINCINNATI The man assigned a rival organization's heavy lifting worked the Cardinals clubhouse Sunday morning wearing a Tommy Bahama Hawaiian shirt and an easy smile.

Sporting the tropical doctor look, Walt Jocketty is doing just fine.

Less than five months into his term as Cincinnati Reds general manager, Jocketty has tipped his hand. Architect of a 2006 world championship as Cardinals executive vice president and general manager, Jocketty for now is the guy who traded Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn as part of an organizational overhaul.

The leftovers are a team that lost 17 of 21 entering Sunday's series finale against the Cardinals and wallowed in last place within the National League Central.

"Dunn was going to be a free agent and Griffey had an option we weren't going to exercise, so we just felt it was time to turn the page and get some players back to help give us more depth," Jocketty said. "They were both guys who had great careers here. But it wasn't working, so we're trying something different."

The Reds displayed part of their future Sunday as 25-year-old Edinson Volquez stifled the Cardinals. The Reds entered the game 16-8 in Volquez's starts, 38-62 when he didn't start.

Absent from postseason play since 1995, the Reds not surprisingly seek a dramatic shift in direction.

After entering the season with 12 pending free agents, nine remain. About $30 million comes off payroll at season's end, and majority owner Bob Castellini has made it clear that Jocketty will have free rein to shape the team as he sees fit.

"We will be active. We're prepared for that," Jocketty said. "It depends on what's out there. But we plan to be active."

Griffey and Dunn were extremely popular figures locally, hitting 480 home runs combined for the organization. The future Hall of Famer Griffey was born in Cincinnati at a time when his father, Ken Sr., contributed to the Big Red Machine of the 1970s.

Dunn, the only player in Reds history to produce four consecutive 40-home run seasons, was again challenging for the NL home run lead when traded to the Arizona Diamondbacks for three players.

"The same people who were after us to trade those guys were probably the most critical when it happened," Jocketty quipped. "But I think for the most part people understand. I think the fans like seeing the young players up here. They like seeing the energy. We have talent. We just need experience."

The Cardinals acquired six members of Sunday's starting lineup during Jocketty's term. He brought Tony La Russa to St. Louis as manager before the 1996 season. Predictably, a reunion of sorts broke out behind the batting cage Saturday, with Jocketty exchanging playful barbs with La Russa and sharing a brief conversation with Cardinals Chairman Bill DeWitt, who abruptly fired him three days after last season's third-place finish.

Still a Ladue resident, Jocketty intends to move to Cincinnati with his family after his son, Joe, graduates high school next spring. Jocketty once predicted he would never again take a general manager's job after leaving the Cardinals. On Sunday he admitted being in for the long haul.

"There's a lot of work to do. I want to be here until we get things back above water," he said.

flyer85
08-18-2008, 04:07 PM
Hope he finds a hot date ... although with that kind of cash it shouldn't be a problem.

durl
08-18-2008, 04:29 PM
You can't just throw money at the problem. They need to spend it wisely. That may be a "duh" statement to many but those who spend the most don't always get the best return in the long run.

RedEye
08-18-2008, 04:40 PM
"There's a lot of work to do. I want to be here until we get things back above water," he said.

So that means that when the team is back above .500 Bavasi takes over to sink the ship again?

buckeyenut
08-18-2008, 05:42 PM
does that 30M count Dunn and Jr? I am assuming it does. Hopefully, it doesn't and we can use their money to pay for the raises and still have 30M to play with.

fearofpopvol1
08-18-2008, 06:06 PM
You can't just throw money at the problem. They need to spend it wisely. That may be a "duh" statement to many but those who spend the most don't always get the best return in the long run.

I don't think that is what he was saying exactly.

top6
08-18-2008, 06:50 PM
"There's a lot of work to do. I want to be here until we get things back above water," he said.
Wow, that's really inspiring. That would be a great slogan for the Reds: "Cincinnati Baseball: Someday We Will Be Above Water Again."

Reds4Life
08-18-2008, 07:14 PM
So that means that when the team is back above .500 Bavasi takes over to sink the ship again?

Sure sounds like it, doesn't it? I don't really like that statement by Walt. Why take over, rebuild, then sound like you aren't going to stick around to enjoy the success you created?

RedEye
08-18-2008, 07:24 PM
Sure sounds like it, doesn't it? I don't really like that statement by Walt. Why take over, rebuild, then sound like you aren't going to stick around to enjoy the success you created?

Bob: Please, please, please, please come out of retirement and help me rebuild the Reds!

Walt: Nah. I'm enjoying my time off. After a World Series, I don't have much else to accomplish.

Bob: Please?

Walt: No thanks.

Bob: Why don't you just come and be a "Special Assistant"? We could really use you and Wayne will do most of the work. I just need your wisdom to help me respond when Krivsky comes to me with crazy trade ideas and half-baked free agent possibilities. He's not really a people person.

Walt: I won't do much work?

Bob: I guarantee you won't. You'll just be doing the fun stuff.

Walt: Okay, I'll give it a try.

Bob: Wicked! Thanks so much, buddy! You won't regret it.
__________________________________________________ __________

A few months later...
__________________________________________________ __________

Walt: Bob, I'm starting to regret accepting this "Special Assistant" position. I'm still doing a lot of work and Wayne is hard to handle. He doesn't have many people skills.

Bob: You can't leave, Walt. Not now!

Walt: I have to. This isn't working. Wayne feels too threatened by me, I think.

Bob: Then I'll fire him and make you GM!

Walt: Bob, I told you before, I prefer to be RETIRED.

Bob: Walt, c'mon buddy, you can't leave me like this. I made a promise to the people of Cincinnati. Many times. I need help.

Walt: Well I can't deal with things how they are.

Bob: I'll fire Wayne and make you GM for a few years. Just long enough to help me right this ship. I promise, okay?

Walt: Just long enough to right the ship. I'm holding you at your word, okay? We've got to bring in someone else to work under me. Someone who has experience in the league and who won't rock the boat like Wayne.

Bob: Like who?

Walt: Well, Bill Bavasi would be a good candidate, but he's still with Seattle.

Bob: You've got a deal!

Unassisted
08-18-2008, 09:58 PM
Wow, that's really inspiring. That would be a great slogan for the Reds: "Cincinnati Baseball: Someday We Will Be Above Water Again."How about "If you love the Reds, you must be all wet!"

RedlegJake
08-19-2008, 02:01 AM
Come on, Walt is a proud, storied GM with a reputation on the line here. He's accepted a job that isn't going to be easy or quick and all I think Jocketty means is there is no way he wants to go out with a franchise mess on his resume. No really good professional wants to leave a job until he can feel proud of what he left behind, especially one with a championship track record. It's his way of reassuring those who wonder if he really is committed to this or not. Remember, not long ago he remarked how he really didn't want the job - now he's in the position of assuring people that now that he's here he intends to get the job done.

Ron Madden
08-19-2008, 02:37 AM
I wish Walt all the luck in the world and hope he's successful.

I gotta say it bothers me when anyone says it hasn't worked with Dunn here.

No it hasn't worked but Dunn was in no way part of the problem.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2008, 03:01 AM
I wish Walt all the luck in the world and hope he's successful.

I gotta say it bothers me when anyone says it hasn't worked with Dunn here.

No it hasn't worked but Dunn was in no way part of the problem.

I will disagree with ya there, but instead of hi-jacking the thread and making it yet another Dunn thread I'll just say this. He wasn't a big part of the problem I'll give you that. But to say he wasn't any part of the problem is likely very wrong.

Patrick Bateman
08-19-2008, 03:06 AM
I will disagree with ya there, but instead of hi-jacking the thread and making it yet another Dunn thread I'll just say this. He wasn't a big part of the problem I'll give you that. But to say he wasn't any part of the problem is likely very wrong.

He was a well above average player paid sub market rates during his time here.

In no way could he be considered part of the problem. Basically, you should be pointing your finger at the other 24 guys before arriving at Dunn.

Ron Madden
08-19-2008, 03:18 AM
I will disagree with ya there, but instead of hi-jacking the thread and making it yet another Dunn thread I'll just say this. He wasn't a big part of the problem I'll give you that. But to say he wasn't any part of the problem is likely very wrong.

Dunn was the Reds most productive hitter, he was't the problem.

The problem was Pitching and the fact that the Reds failed misseably when it came to the use of Adam Dunns talents.

We all have the right to our opinion and thats mine.

:)

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2008, 03:26 AM
Dunn was the Reds most productive hitter, he was't the problem.

The problem was Pitching and the fact that the Reds failed misseably when it came to the use of Adam Dunns talents.

We all have the right to our opinion and thats mine.

:)

That's fine.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2008, 03:29 AM
He was a well above average player paid sub market rates during his time here.

In no way could he be considered part of the problem. Basically, you should be pointing your finger at the other 24 guys before arriving at Dunn.

No where did I state that I hadn't pointed any fingers at anyone else. But Dunn IMO does have a place in line and he also should get a finger pointed at him as well.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2008, 03:34 AM
I just hope Walt makes some major improvements to the coaching in both the minor and major leagues and puts together a good solid 25 man top to bottom with no major weaknesses. If he can do that this offseason I say keep him around for another year and see what happens.

Problem is he isn't likely to fire Dusty and that's both a major coaching issue and a major weakness to the 25 man roster.

icehole3
08-19-2008, 06:29 AM
http://sitelife.cincinnati.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/3/6414fa07-f183-4577-9301-816cacb86ab0.Large.gif

Blimpie
08-19-2008, 07:39 AM
So that means that when the team is back above .500 Bavasi takes over to sink the ship again?I think the fact that Jocketty is moving his home to Cincinnati might be a more important part of the article.

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 07:59 AM
The future Hall of Famer Griffey was born in Cincinnati at a time when his father, Ken Sr., contributed to the Big Red Machine of the 1970s.

I wasn't aware Donora, PA was located in Cincinnati...

Reds/Flyers Fan
08-19-2008, 11:17 AM
So that means that when the team is back above .500 Bavasi takes over to sink the ship again?

I guess if the Reds win Opening Day next year and start out 1-0 (technically above water), Walt's gone and Bavasi is in?

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2008, 12:39 PM
http://sitelife.cincinnati.com/ver1.0/Content/images/store/4/3/6414fa07-f183-4577-9301-816cacb86ab0.Large.gif

That guys cartoons are fantastic every time.

Patrick Bateman
08-19-2008, 01:09 PM
No where did I state that I hadn't pointed any fingers at anyone else. But Dunn IMO does have a place in line and he also should get a finger pointed at him as well.

Never said you did. But if Dunn is being blamed for this mess, then basically you could make the same argument for any player on any losing team.

Warts or not, Dunn positively contributed to the Reds while being paid submarket rates. What exactly should he have done as a Red to not be at fault? Play like Albert Pujols?

Triples
08-19-2008, 02:18 PM
He was a well above average player paid sub market rates during his time here

Exactly what does sub market rates mean? The guy was being paid $12million bucks to play a freaking game in which he batted below the league average and struck out 160+ times per year. He isn't exactly a five tool guy either. Not to mention that he wasn't the greatest team guy either (like or not both he and Griffey liked having their own set of rules). Granted he can hit a baseball into next month but that alone doesn't warrant paying him the kind of money he was asking for. The biggest mistake the Reds made with Dunn (and probably Griffey) was that they didn't trade him a lot sooner while he still had more value than 3 minor leaguers...ok 2 minor leaguers and one almost minor leaguer.

Raisor
08-19-2008, 02:26 PM
Exactly what does sub market rates mean? The guy was being paid $12million bucks to play a freaking game in which he batted below the league average and struck out 160+ times per year. .

900 OPS is "league average"? Since when?

:thumbup:

Dunn, over the course of his Reds career, averaged 5.5 million a year.

Patrick Bateman
08-19-2008, 02:55 PM
Exactly what does sub market rates mean? The guy was being paid $12million bucks to play a freaking game

Well I thought with Adam Dunn being a baseball player, it would be best to compare him to other baseball players. I get that Dunn is paid more than say, Jeff the plumber, and Bobby the proctologist, but from a baseball standpoint, that didn't seem like a relevent comparison to make.

Thus, 'submarket', pertains to the amount of money Dunn is paid compared to what it would cost to replace him. Similar players like a Carlos Lee make upwards of 16M a year.... something to this point Dunn has never sniffed. Raisor just posted Dunn's average salary of 5.5M during his Reds tenture, an extremely cheap rate for his overall production. His ability to produce consistently good numbers from the start of his career is the type of stuff lower payroll teams need. The inability to get some decent talent around him with the rest of the space 'aint his problem. If you wanted Dunn's production during his career, you would have needed to pay a heck of a lot more than the 5.5M annual sum. Thus, removing him from the blame for 'why this team sucks?'


in which he batted below the league average and struck out 160+ times per year.

Seriously, research the bajillion topics for why this sentence would at best be considered a 'strawman'.



He isn't exactly a five tool guy either.

I don't care. You don't need to have 5 tools to be a productive player. Corey Patterson has 5 theoretical tools that amount to a .578 OPS. Dunn hit, a lot, and did so cheaply. Your looking in the wrong places if you think Dunn was part of a problem.


Not to mention that he wasn't the greatest team guy either (like or not both he and Griffey liked having their own set of rules).

From everything I have read from articles, and his teammates, this is pure bunk. His teammates loved him. He befriended young guys like Bruce and helped teach them the game (you can visibly see Dunn give signs to Bruce and other young guys on OF alignment during live games). He kep the clubhouse loose. That's nothing but conjecture on your part.


Granted he can hit a baseball into next month but that alone doesn't warrant paying him the kind of money he was asking for.

This is irrelavant to the conversation.


The biggest mistake the Reds made with Dunn (and probably Griffey) was that they didn't trade him a lot sooner while he still had more value than 3 minor leaguers...ok 2 minor leaguers and one almost minor leaguer

This is probably true, but it's more of an indicment of the current state of the Reds than the players themselves. If the Reds had a decent team around Dunn, there would be zero reason to consider moving what could be a huge piece of the contending puzzle.

Mario-Rijo
08-19-2008, 03:01 PM
Never said you did. But if Dunn is being blamed for this mess, then basically you could make the same argument for any player on any losing team.

Warts or not, Dunn positively contributed to the Reds while being paid submarket rates. What exactly should he have done as a Red to not be at fault? Play like Albert Pujols?

Again if you go back to my 1st post about the issue I said it was largely NOT his fault we were losing, but to say he doesn't deserve a shred of blame is ludicrous. There were many reasons for the dysfunction of this team, most of which Dunn had nothing to do with but i'm sure he had his part in it as well.

Patrick Bateman
08-19-2008, 03:08 PM
but to say he doesn't deserve a shred of blame is ludicrous

Why? The only reason I can see that being true, is under the bench mark of having to be a sure fire all-star calibre player to get away from blame.

The way I see it, guys like Phillips, Dunn, Harang, etc. have provided numbers that have improved the team, all the while being paid salaries that would suggest that they are underpaid. If everyone could be like Dunn, the Reds would be a playoff calibre team. Your either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Dunn fits pretty nicely in the first one.

I get that Dunn has some flaws in his game. I wont dispute that. But the total sum of his game has easily resulted in positive contributions. By your measure, every single Red during Dunn's tenure has 'been part of the problem', whereas, the same players, on say the Yankess, would be 'part of the solution'.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:16 PM
Priorities for the offseason:

1. Leadoff hitter who can get on base and set the table. (Could be Dickerson and will be given a hard look the final month and half of the season).

2. A young catcher who can call a game and have alittle life in his bat offensively (see Texas Rangers).

3. A righthanded bat for the middle of the lineup and not have to rely on Phillips as its righthanded source.

4. Decide if Encarnacion is in the plans as third baseman for this ballclub.

5. Decide if Gonzalez will be the shortstop in 2008.

lollipopcurve
08-19-2008, 04:28 PM
I'll be stunned if Jocketty doesn't upgrade at catcher. I also think they'll make a big run at Sabathia.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:40 PM
It isn't the offseason but here is my first trade I make:

Reds trade Bronson Arroyo, Chris Dickerson, and Jared Burton to Colorado for lst baseman Todd Helton, Ryan Spilborghs and Chris Iannetta.
Reds agree to take on an aging Todd Helton and his contract till Yonder Alonso is ready to take over at lst base. Joey Votto shifts to LF and Spilborghs gives the Reds a centerfielder who can lead off. Iannetta is a young everyday catcher that the Reds are looking for. Trading Arroyo means the Reds could pursue a starting pitcher in free agency.

The Rockies would shift third baseman Atkins to lst and insert Ian Stewart at third. With Fuentes to leave as a free agent, Burton gives them a setup man if Manny Corpas fails as a closer again and Taylor Buchholz wins the closer role. Dickerson is a backup to replace the departed Spilborghs

Reds lineup:
1. Spilborghs cf
2. Keppinger ss
3. Bruce rf
4. Phillips 2b
5. Votto lf
6. Encarnacion 3b
7. Helton lb
8. Iannetta c

Highlifeman21
08-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Walt needs to be active in the offseason for the following reasons:

1. The pitching is still bad. Volquez, Burton and Cordero (although he's allergic of saves, for whatever reason) are the only guys that have done anything positive this year. Harang scares the crap out of me (go ahead, tell me Jerry Narron didn't do some lingering damage to his arm), and I waited for Arroyo to return to his career norm. Hopefully Cueto will continue to improve.

2. Dunn's gone, so unless some serious offensive talent is added our 2009 Reds will be absolutely abysmal when it comes to scoring runs. We're talking less than 4 R/G bad. It's very possible they might score less than 650 R next year.

3. C and SS continue to be pressing needs, and now with Bruce being the only given for the OF next year, we find our Reds needing at least 2 OF. Part of me wants to see if EE has any value, move him for a different offensive need or an arm, and plug Keppinger into 3B, but I'm not overly sold on the idea either.

4. This team can't retool, now that Dunn and Griffey are gone. Walt needs to blow it up, and build around Volquez, Cueto, Bruce and probably Votto. Everyone else should have a price tag.

5. Hopefully Walt's active, and not Bavasi. If Bavasi's given too much power, we'll end up adding Erik Bedard to a team that doesn't need Erik Bedard. (Hypothetical situation, of course)

HokieRed
08-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Tonight is a reminder of just how bad this team, particularly on offense, is and of how much WJ needs to do.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 11:40 PM
Walt needs to be active in the offseason for the following reasons:

1. The pitching is still bad. Volquez, Burton and Cordero (although he's allergic of saves, for whatever reason) are the only guys that have done anything positive this year. Harang scares the crap out of me (go ahead, tell me Jerry Narron didn't do some lingering damage to his arm), and I waited for Arroyo to return to his career norm. Hopefully Cueto will continue to improve.

Totally agree. Only problem is Arroyo's horrible contract and the fact that you just have to let Josh Fogg go because he'll be a free agent. Should have moved them before the deadline, but I guess no one wanted them. Don't blame them either.


2. Dunn's gone, so unless some serious offensive talent is added our 2009 Reds will be absolutely abysmal when it comes to scoring runs. We're talking less than 4 R/G bad. It's very possible they might score less than 650 R next year.

This offense wasn't good when Dunn and Griffey were here. It's abysmal now. The Reds need a couple of big bats ( and I don't count on young Bruce and Votto to supply that--and I sure don't expect EE and Phillips too either). As the team is now, they'll be luck to score 600 runs and more like 550.


3. C and SS continue to be pressing needs, and now with Bruce being the only given for the OF next year, we find our Reds needing at least 2 OF. Part of me wants to see if EE has any value, move him for a different offensive need or an arm, and plug Keppinger into 3B, but I'm not overly sold on the idea either.

I don't want either of them starting on my team. I want a new third baseman and shortstop, but I'm old enough that my wants won't hurt me.


4. This team can't retool, now that Dunn and Griffey are gone. Walt needs to blow it up, and build around Volquez, Cueto, Bruce and probably Votto. Everyone else should have a price tag.

No, it's far beyone retooling now. Walt must build around the youth (like you say, Volquez, Cueto, Bruce, Votto, and Phillips) and come up with a couple of outfielders who can hit, a shortstop, a catcher, and a more reliable bullpen. If he doesn't do all of that next year, I won't complain. I just want to see progress.


5. Hopefully Walt's active, and not Bavasi. If Bavasi's given too much power, we'll end up adding Erik Bedard to a team that doesn't need Erik Bedard. (Hypothetical situation, of course)

Bavasi is just a fetcher. He'll use his contacts in the sport to the Reds advantage, but if the past is any indicator, WJ will run the show. In a way, he already has. And my guess is his biggest nightmare is looking at this horrible roster he inherited and wondering why he ever left retirement.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 01:34 PM
The way I see it, guys like Phillips, Dunn, Harang, etc. have provided numbers that have improved the team, all the while being paid salaries that would suggest that they are underpaid. If everyone could be like Dunn, the Reds would be a playoff calibre team. Your either part of the solution, or part of the problem. Dunn fits pretty nicely in the first one.
.

The problem is that after this season, Dunn is no longer a below market value.
He's going to get a big contract, both in $$ and years. I believe Bronson that Dunn wants 120 million. Why shouldn't he try to get that? Why would he want to come back to Cincy? If I was Dunn, I wouldn't want to come back to Cincy on a 3 year, below market deal. I know some people hoped that Dunn would give the Reds a deal like that, but he'd be an idiot not to cash in on free agency.

Dunn wasn't part of the long term solution, just like Jr. It was smart to deal him. It would've been smarter to deal Dunn 2-3 years ago, but that happened before Walt arrived.