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View Full Version : Is Johnny Cueto more Javy Vazquez/Harang or Pedro?



Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 03:19 PM
Or neither?

Discuss.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 04:05 PM
Opposing hitters tend to compare him to Pedro in post game quotes. I can remember Griffey also making that comparison, and Arroyo too. His stuff reminds me of Pedro, but I don't think we can expect him to go out and post sub 2.00 ERA's at times like Pedro did in his prime. In his prime Pedro was consistently at 95-97 with a plus curveball and plus changeup. Right now Cueto is consistently at 94-96 with a plus slider and plus changeup, though he is inconsistent at times with his command but what rookie pitcher isn't? Give Cueto a couple years and I believe we're going to see him putting up Cy Young type of numbers. His stuff is that good. His problem right now is he tends to give in to fastball hitters - I don't know how many times I've seen him ahead in the count only to throw a hittable fastball when he should have buried a slider or changeup, and the result is usually a homerun. As he matures as a pitcher this problem should go away and that's when he'll take off as a pitcher.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2008, 04:30 PM
Too early to say.

Next year will be a better indicator of what's to come I think. His ceiling is ridiculous, obviously. We'll see what happens.

BRM
08-19-2008, 04:42 PM
I think we should ask Javy Valentin for his opinion.

Superdude
08-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Pedro in his prime was just stupid good, so that's asking a bit much. Cueto's only 22 though and has already shown he can throw it over the plate and miss bats. That's 2/3 the battle right there. I think whether his homerun rates come down is what will determine whether he's an annual Cy Young contender or a flashy #2-3 starter.

Johnny Footstool
08-19-2008, 04:51 PM
Javier Vasquez is still an excellent pitcher.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2008, 04:51 PM
From what I've seen, Cueto needs to fall out of love with his slider and fall in love with his changeup.

I think he has special stuff, but just needs to have better pitch selection. Maybe it's scouting reports (or lack thereof), maybe it's slight immaturity, who knows?

I'm really excited to see what he can and will do in the future in a Reds uni.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 04:52 PM
I was just looking at some stats and saw that Cueto has the 8th highest K/9 among all MLB pitchers who have thrown at least 140 innings. That is very impressive considering over 70 pitchers have thrown over 140+ innings.

reds44
08-19-2008, 05:08 PM
From what I've seen, Cueto needs to fall out of love with his slider and fall in love with his changeup.

I think he has special stuff, but just needs to have better pitch selection. Maybe it's scouting reports (or lack thereof), maybe it's slight immaturity, who knows?

I'm really excited to see what he can and will do in the future in a Reds uni.
Sounds like Carlos Marmol.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 05:15 PM
I don't know how well they match up from the stuff perspective (I think Vazquez has a curve too), but from the outcomes, I think Javier Vazquez is a near perfect comparison. Both have very good stuff generally, get lots of K's, solid control, slightly flyball oriented and homer prone. They both were solid but not super highly regarded prospects who made the majors quickly. If Cueto can have Vazquez's career, we'll be quite fortunate.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 05:49 PM
Javier Vasquez is still an excellent pitcher.

He is a very good pitcher. I think all three of the above-named pitchers are very good to great. Just curious as to what folks think Cueto will become--a true ace or a horse.

11larkin11
08-19-2008, 06:24 PM
Opposing hitters tend to compare him to Pedro in post game quotes. I can remember Griffey also making that comparison, and Arroyo too. His stuff reminds me of Pedro, but I don't think we can expect him to go out and post sub 2.00 ERA's at times like Pedro did in his prime. In his prime Pedro was consistently at 95-97 with a plus curveball and plus changeup. Right now Cueto is consistently at 94-96 with a plus slider and plus changeup, though he is inconsistent at times with his command but what rookie pitcher isn't? Give Cueto a couple years and I believe we're going to see him putting up Cy Young type of numbers. His stuff is that good. His problem right now is he tends to give in to fastball hitters - I don't know how many times I've seen him ahead in the count only to throw a hittable fastball when he should have buried a slider or changeup, and the result is usually a homerun. As he matures as a pitcher this problem should go away and that's when he'll take off as a pitcher.

I personally think thats more trying to get confidence in himself and showing off. He says to himself this is a fastball hitter and I'm going to blow him away with my fastball. No junk, just straight heat. Unfortunately, that doesnt work in the majors.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2008, 10:10 PM
Sounds like Carlos Marmol.

Marmol is a guy I'd love to see in a Reds uniform, but you're right, he's a tad on the pitching immature side, and loves to throw his out pitch is the wrong situation(s).

Johnny Footstool
08-19-2008, 10:22 PM
He is a very good pitcher. I think all three of the above-named pitchers are very good to great. Just curious as to what folks think Cueto will become--a true ace or a horse.

The odds are against him becoming Pedro. I think Vasquez is a realistic expectation, though.

Stormy
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
He is a very good pitcher. I think all three of the above-named pitchers are very good to great. Just curious as to what folks think Cueto will become--a true ace or a horse.

True ace, at a performance level akin to a young Oswalt (assuming health, and other variables don't interfere).

Matt700wlw
08-20-2008, 12:51 AM
He smoked one of the best lineups in baseball tonight....too bad Edwin isn't very smart and his bullpen took a dump........Some of JC's stuff tonight looked filthier than Volquez........These are two absolute studs who are young and are here to anchor this thing for a long time - THESE are building blocks

*BaseClogger*
08-20-2008, 01:06 AM
Dan Haren?

RedsManRick
08-20-2008, 10:25 AM
There are 16 starters in MLB with an average fastball velocity over 93 mph. Cueto (93.4) and Volquez (93.3) are among them.

Interestingly, of that group, only Volquez (82.2) and Greinke (81.7) have changeup under 83 mph.

On fangraphs, Cueto has 6.3% of his pitches as unclassified (shows a FB, CU, SL). Is he throwing a fourth pitch, or is there a classification issue?

Roy Tucker
08-20-2008, 10:55 AM
One thing I saw last night that I don't recall from before was Cueto was repeatedly buzzing Cub batters inside.

Rather Pedro-esque.

RedEye
08-20-2008, 10:55 AM
Why the Javier Vazquez/Harang thing?

Falls City Beer
08-20-2008, 10:58 AM
Why the Javier Vazquez/Harang thing?

They represent horses, not true aces. (Though they've masqueraded as aces in the past).

lollipopcurve
08-20-2008, 11:06 AM
too bad Edwin isn't very smart

cheap shot -- the play was Bako's fault -- is he stupid?


On fangraphs, Cueto has 6.3% of his pitches as unclassified (shows a FB, CU, SL). Is he throwing a fourth pitch, or is there a classification issue?

not sure - sometimes it seems like his changeup comes in hard (mid to high 80s), making it hard to distinguish from his slider -- and last night he threw one pitch that looked like a 91 mph slider -- but maybe that was a cut fastball? -- who knows? -- my guess is that they wouldn't exactly advertise his working on some new pitches, if he were doing it -- let the hitters and scouts keep guessing

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2008, 11:27 AM
There are 16 starters in MLB with an average fastball velocity over 93 mph. Cueto (93.4) and Volquez (93.3) are among them.

Interestingly, of that group, only Volquez (82.2) and Greinke (81.7) have changeup under 83 mph.

On fangraphs, Cueto has 6.3% of his pitches as unclassified (shows a FB, CU, SL). Is he throwing a fourth pitch, or is there a classification issue?

I remember hearing a while back that Soto was teaching Cueto to throw a cut fastball so that may be where the classification issue comes into play.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2008, 11:34 AM
What I love about Cueto and Volquez is that neither are afraid to pitch inside and back hitters off the plate. Cueto and Volquez have each hit 11 batters so far, which is tied for the fourth most in all of baseball. Earlier in the year it seemed like Cueto had gotten away from pitching inside and that's when he went through his rough patch, now he's back to pitching inside again and finding more success as a result. His stuff is just filthy. He can beat you with a 96 mph fastball in on the hands and then come back with an 87 mph slider down and away and make a hitter look foolish. Both of these kids are fun to watch and have very bright futures ahead of them.

Big Klu
08-20-2008, 12:09 PM
I noticed Sunday when Volquez pitched that after he was buzzed by Lohse (punk), and then got into a bases-loaded jam the next inning, but worked his way out of it (continually pitching inside, despite the warning), he turned toward the Cardinals' dugout and stared them down. I like the attitude.

And then Cueto consistently pitched inside to the Cubs last night. He was lights out, and his fastball had some hair on it. I think he took a major step forward in his development last night.

NJReds
08-20-2008, 01:20 PM
Cueto has definitely grown up this year. He took some lumps along the way, but I like the way he's finishing the season. Hopefully the Reds will score a run or two in his remaining starts because he deserves a couple more wins.