PDA

View Full Version : Letter to the Fans from Castellini & Jocketty



redsmetz
08-19-2008, 03:52 PM
I just got this in my email:


Dear Fans,

Thank you for your loyalty and support of the Cincinnati Reds. You are extremely vital to the success of the Reds, and it is important we share with you the thinking behind our recent personnel decisions.

Since taking ownership of this franchise, we have aggressively tried to improve our Major League roster for the purpose of restoring championship baseball to Cincinnati. We have sought and signed proven players. We have extended the contracts of select current players. We added Dusty Baker, a proven winning manager. And, we have capitalized on our burgeoning younger players like Joey Votto, Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto.

We had high expectations for the 2008 season. Unfortunately the team has not played up to our expectations and we have sustained injuries to key players within our starting lineup and rotation.

We opted to trade Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn at this time because we believe it provided the best outcome for the long-term success of the organization. By executing these inevitable changes now, we secured more players as part of our focus towards building a deeper, stronger inventory of young talent.

We are pleased that the trades allow Griffey and Dunn the opportunity to play for teams in tight division races. Both Ken and Adam made significant contributions to the Reds and we are extremely proud and grateful they wore the Reds uniform.

While the run production generated by these two veterans will not be quickly replaced, we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come.

The vast majority of our 50 draft picks were signed, culminating last week with first-rounder Yonder Alonso and a pair of talented pitchers. Our expanded scouting operations also signed Juan Duran from the Dominican Republic and Yorman Rodriguez from Venezuela, who are arguably the best amateur free agent position players from their respective countries.

As we near September, we will continue to provide valuable playing time to our young players and new acquisitions who we feel can become significant contributors at the Major League level. We ask your continued trust and patience as we build the roster that will get us back on top. We appreciate your support and look forward to seeing you at the ballpark.

gonelong
08-19-2008, 03:57 PM
Could this be "The Plan" that suffering Reds Fans have been so desperate to waft to their ears?

This feels like a total reboot of the system to me ... about time. I suspect some offseason acquisitions and trades as well.

GL

redsmetz
08-19-2008, 04:01 PM
Could this be "The Plan" that suffering Reds Fans have been so desperate to waft to their ears?

This feels like a total reboot of the system to me ... about time. I suspect some offseason acquisitions and trades as well.

GL

I think it's a bid to bump up attendance in the final five to six weeks of the season, acknowledging that it's going to be a bit dreadful, but asking folks to come on down anyway.

Chip R
08-19-2008, 04:07 PM
P.S. The losing stops now. We really mean it this time. ;)

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:10 PM
At least they showed consideration and addressing fans with the situation.

RedEye
08-19-2008, 04:11 PM
P.S. The losing stops now. We really mean it this time. ;)

All kidding aside, this letter really feels more like it is saying that "the losing begins now so that we can start rebuilding." It's a refreshingly honest change IMO.

lollipopcurve
08-19-2008, 04:13 PM
Glad to see them acknowledging the need to go young. I'm behind it 100%.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:18 PM
What would be worse is doing nothing at the trading deadline. At least they looked in the mirror and finally realize what they got wasn't working.

You can fire so many managers and GMs before you point the finger at the ones who produce the results......the players.

Unassisted
08-19-2008, 04:20 PM
I think it's classy and much-needed. From what I've heard lately on WLW's call-in shows, average fans had trouble understanding why the Reds were "trading all of their best players." This will help the casual fan understand and feel better about those deals.

Chip R
08-19-2008, 04:23 PM
All kidding aside, this letter really feels more like it is saying that "the losing begins now so that we can start rebuilding." It's a refreshingly honest change IMO.


I'll believe it when I see it. The Reds are masters at sending out mixed messages.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2008, 04:24 PM
That's a classy thing to do. I think it's a little bit late (why didn't we get one of these last season?), but I appreciate the fact that they are at least saying something.

BCubb2003
08-19-2008, 04:32 PM
You are extremely vital to the success of the Reds

So it's you're fault. You have some 'splaining to do.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 04:37 PM
Didn't inspire confidence in how I view their leadership.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 04:44 PM
Could this be "The Plan" that suffering Reds Fans have been so desperate to waft to their ears?

This feels like a total reboot of the system to me ... about time. I suspect some offseason acquisitions and trades as well.

GL

This isn't a plan; it's a collective blame job meant to allay fan revolt and an admission that "win now" didn't work. One thing the letter was noticeably free from was accountability in the front office. They outlined all the things they tried to do, implying it should have worked, and then passed the buck on to the players failing to meet expectations. There was no admission that the expectations were out of line with reality and the moves made were insufficent at best, misguided at worst. That scares me.

This process of putting together mediocre teams and then the front office blaming losses on bad luck and unexpectedly poor performance has been the hallmark of poorly run organizations such as the Pirates and Royals. I want Castellini to say point blank "I screwed up." He hasn't and won't.

If I hear the phrase "proven winner" once more my head might explode. Highlight the individual's contributions towards winning. There's too much room for coattail riding in any organization to apply the success of the organization broadly to any (and thus all) individual.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Didn't inspire confidence in how I view their leadership.

Jockertty is Bob's guy. He won't be so quick to fire him as he did with Krivsky. I think Walt told Bob to right the ship that they needed to clean house and take two steps backward before going forward again.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 04:52 PM
This isn't a plan; it's a collective "our bad" meant to allay fan revolt.it's an OOPS ... did we do that.

It says
1) We like Dusty
2) We had to trade Dunn/Jr
3) We have no idea how we are going to replace their production

Maybe Walt will right the ship ... but I have no idea how he plans to do it other than waiting on draft picks to develop. Problem is by that time other productive players have aged and left and the inexpensive become expensive if they are any good and the cycle continues.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 04:53 PM
it's an OOPS ... did we do that.

It says
1) We like Dusty
2) We had to trade Dunn/Jr
3) We have no idea how we are going to replace their production

Maybe Walt will right the ship ... but I have no idea how he plans to do it other than waiting on draft picks to develop. Problem is by that time other productive players have aged and left and the inexpensive become expensive if they are any good and the cycle continues.

That is why this offseason will be so interesting to watch.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 04:55 PM
That is why this offseason will be so interesting to watch.or not.

Walt built his success in St. Louis in doing the opposite of what he is now required to do.

dougdirt
08-19-2008, 04:55 PM
I am with Rick. The entire thing was lost on me as soon as they said Dusty Baker and proven winner. I know they are trying to sell things to me, but for crying out loud it really makes me feel worse about giving them my money when they say things like that because I think they might actually believe it.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 04:57 PM
I am with Rick. The entire thing was lost on me as soon as they said Dusty Baker and proven winner. I know they are trying to sell things to me, but for crying out loud it really makes me feel worse about giving them my money when they say things like that because I think they might actually believe it.It certainly doesn't inspire any confidence that they have picked the right direction in which to head.

If they wanted to do that they would can Dusty and explain that while he is a good manager he is not the right type of manager to take this group where they want to go.

Sorry Bob but after your first 2+ years lip service buys nothing.

redsmetz
08-19-2008, 04:58 PM
Jockertty is Bob's guy. He won't be so quick to fire him as he did with Krivsky. I think Walt told Bob to right the ship that they needed to clean house and take two steps backward before going forward again.

I hesitate to respond to this as I'm not interested in this thread becoming another WK thread, but Krivsky was also Castellini's guy too. It's that simple. What's done is done and no sense rehashing that.

I mentioned in another response and agree with those who have said this, but this certainly is aimed at bolstering attendance as the season wind downs. I can't read whole epics into it though with "win now" "blow it up" etc. It's mainly meant to keep the turnstiles going. Regarding next year, we'll know from here on out. I don't care what they call it, lets put a good product on the field from here on out.

BRM
08-19-2008, 04:59 PM
or not.

Walt built his success in St. Louis in doing the opposite of what he is now required to do.

You mean the Reds aren't a Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds away from contending?

flyer85
08-19-2008, 04:59 PM
You mean the Reds aren't a Scott Rolen and Jim Edmonds away from contending?they had better start with Albert Pujols

As Albert has shown in StL and Bonds in SF you can sometimes win based considerably on one when that player is putting up some of the best numbers in the history of the game.

BRM
08-19-2008, 05:00 PM
they had better start with Albert Pujols

They could use a healthy Chris Carpenter too.

dougdirt
08-19-2008, 05:00 PM
they had better start with Albert Pujols

I could settle for Dave Duncan.....

BRM
08-19-2008, 05:01 PM
I could settle for Dave Duncan.....

Dick Pole needs more time...

flyer85
08-19-2008, 05:04 PM
I could settle for Dave Duncan.....I honestly would not want him without LaRussa and others in the organization. Everyone was sure Mazzone was some genius until they took him away from Atlanta and Bobby Cox.

I am sure Duncan is not a one man miracle worker rather he is part of an organization that can maximize the productivity of pitchers that fit a certain profile.

BRM
08-19-2008, 05:06 PM
I honestly would not want him without LaRussa and others in the organization. Everyone was sure Mazzone was some genius until they took him away from Atlanta and Bobby Cox.

I am sure Duncan is not a one man miracle worker rather he is part of an organization that can maximize the productivity of pitchers that fit a certain profile.

Duncan and LaRussa or Baker and Pole? I know which one I prefer.

jojo
08-19-2008, 05:16 PM
We appreciate your support and look forward to seeing you at the ballpark.

Translated: We are praying to God that we see you in the ballpark because even we think there must be a limit to the number of suckers who still have enduring faith that we're competent. Our only hope is that you enjoy baseball too much to avoid the park. Please realize that the suck you'll see (provided our prayers are answered and you do show up) is really part of our bigger plan. God knows we've tried our best to distract you from actually watching baseball when you show up at GABP-hey everyone enjoys a carnival right? So even though it'll be ugly, hopefully you won't really have to watch.

Matt700wlw
08-19-2008, 05:17 PM
I am with Rick. The entire thing was lost on me as soon as they said Dusty Baker and proven winner.

I hate to point out the obvious, but his career managerial record is a winning one. (1217-1111 .523)

No he's never won a WS...

Right man for THIS job? That's the debate...

BRM
08-19-2008, 05:20 PM
A carnival at GABP? Interesting idea.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 05:23 PM
Well, I guess this is nice and is better than pretending all is well.

However, we're likely not going to renew our 20 game ticket package. There's some new time constraints unrelated to baseball, however, most of the decision revolves around the complete ineptitude of this orginization.

We'll still go to ball games, we just woln't fork over the money, in advance, to do it. Instead of 20+ games we'll likely make it to 5 to 10.

jojo
08-19-2008, 05:25 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but his career managerial record is a winning one. (1217-1111 .523)

No he's never won a WS...

Right man for the job? That's the debate these days.

A couple points about proven winners....

They are almost always tremendously overvalued. Think back to when Dano explained the Milton signing by describing Milton as a "proven winner". Maybe he won something in the past, but I'm more interested in today and tomorrow and whether their true, tangible skillset can translate into wins.

The "proven winner" card is played to absolve yourself of blame. I mean it's not "my" fault. I did everything in "my" power to bring in proven winners. Look at the track records! Who could've predicted this? Must be bad luck. Forces out of our control. White line fever (Dunn is the latest victim of that virus apparently).

Proven winner=cover my butt.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 05:35 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but his career managerial record is a winning one. (1217-1111 .523)

No he's never won a WS...

Right man for THIS job? That's the debate...

Citing the team W-L record of a manager is no more useful than citing the team W-L of a given player. Without anybody knowing the exact influence of a manager, I feel 100% confident in saying that no single person, with the possible exception of the general manager, has enough influence over the team level outcome (Wins and Losses) so as to make the team W-L a useful indicator of their ability.

Any argument regarding the abilities of a manager or player needs to be limited to the actual performances of said person. And when you look at Dusty's track record in that way, a lot of the luster is lost. Rickie Ledee was on 3 World Series teams. Ernie Banks was on 0. Nobody is looking to make Rickie Ledee their starting OF on the strength of his teams' collective resume. Why do we do the same with managers? Presumably it's because we lack the data and language to do otherwise.

I just hope to God that Reds management has many better qualifications for Dusty in their minds when they hired him. Though their choice of words herein suggests that either they are the most intelligent or they believe their fans aren't. Either way, I'm disappointed.

Reds1
08-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Reds fans response:



Dear Bob and Walt,



Thank you very much for the touching letter. I, like you, had high expectations for 2008 and also 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, and about every year since 1990. I also agree that it is very unfortunate that the team did not play up to expectations once again.



I think it is awesome that you traded the only reason I have to come to the ballpark for more great prospects. We can only hope these prospects turn out as well as all those great prospects we received in previous trades. I canít wait until they expand the roster in September so I can get a chance to come out to the park and buy a few $7.00 beers and watch the future of the Reds.



Thanks for all you do to make the Reds great!



Reds Fans



PS Ė Can you send a letter to my 6 year old son to explain why we donít want a guy with 600 HR on the club? I tried telling him we traded him so we can win next season, but he is 6 years old and has been a Reds fan for 2 seasons now and he already knows that is BS

danforsman
08-19-2008, 06:06 PM
Reds fans response:

Dear Bob and Walt, ...

PS Ė Can you send a letter to my 6 year old son to explain why we donít want a guy with 600 HR on the club? I tried telling him we traded him so we can win next season, but he is 6 years old and has been a Reds fan for 2 seasons now and he already knows that is BS

I wasn't sure where my breaking point was with respect to the Reds' front office, but now it's quite clear. If and when they decide it is worth their time to explain their philosophy to a six year old, that's when I'll give up hope.

registerthis
08-19-2008, 06:10 PM
They outlined all the things they tried to do, implying it should have worked, and then passed the buck on to the players failing to meet expectations.

That was what jumped out at me as well.

It wasn't that the team that was assembled was bad, it was that the players simply didn't do their jobs. Which is not exactly how I view things. It seems to me that a team featuring the likes of Patterson, Keppinger, Bako, Ross, Hopper, Valentin, Belisle, Fogg, Bailey, Freel, Coffey, Majewski et al. performed right about how you'd expect a team comprised of such players would perform.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 06:12 PM
I wasn't sure where my breaking point was with respect to the Reds' front office, but now it's quite clear. If and when they decide it is worth their time to explain their philosophy to a six year old, that's when I'll give up hope.

Well, given the gross simplicity of their excuses, one could argue it's time.

Krusty
08-19-2008, 06:20 PM
The Griffey and Dunn trades reminds me of the reactions of fans during the 1971 offseason when Bob Howsam dealt Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart to the Astros for Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Ed Armbrister, Cesar Geronimo and Jack Billingham.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 06:22 PM
What the letter should have said if they wanted to be honest:

Dear Suckers,

We are sorry we gave away our best player for two injured minor league non-prospect pitchers and a minor league catcher that can't hit. We decided it is better to give away our best player because we would rather use his $16 million/year to pay some of the $80 million to the awful players we have left. It is all your fault for not buying enough $7 beers this season. How are we supposed to keep making $20+ million dollars in profit each year if we have to pay our best player a market-rate salary? It came down to a choice between winning baseball games or making a huge profit. We chose the profit.

Sorry for your luck,

Bob (Money Talks) Ca$tellini and Walt Jockety

hebroncougar
08-19-2008, 06:24 PM
While I agree we need to go young, I wonder if they really have the stomach for it, and I really question any decision they make until they stick with it for a while.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 06:24 PM
The Griffey and Dunn trades reminds me of the reactions of fans during the 1971 offseason when Bob Howsam dealt Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart to the Astros for Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Ed Armbrister, Cesar Geronimo and Jack Billingham.

Yes, it is exactly the same...

Except this time we don't get Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo nor Jack Billingham.

hebroncougar
08-19-2008, 06:25 PM
The Griffey and Dunn trades reminds me of the reactions of fans during the 1971 offseason when Bob Howsam dealt Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart to the Astros for Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Ed Armbrister, Cesar Geronimo and Jack Billingham.

It certainly doesn't me.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 06:26 PM
Yes, it is exactly the same...

Except this time we don't get Joe Morgan, Cesar Geronimo nor Jack Billingham.



I believe ole Krusty was talking about the REACTION to the trade, not that the particulars were similar.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 06:32 PM
I believe ole Krusty was talking about the REACTION to the trade, not that the particulars were similar.

No. He was inferring that the fans hated losing the popular stud Lee May but didn't consider that we had gotten a superstar and other good players in return. The situation this time is actually the opposite. Many fans are happy to see our best player traded for three guys that have almost no real potential even if they fully recover from their injuries.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 06:34 PM
This reminds me of a half-sencere applogy from a husband who doesn't quite understand what he did to tick off his wife. In the end, it only makes her more mad.

Especially the part where he blames his stupidity on her being over-weight.

The more I read the letter, the more obvious it becomes that

1) They really thought they had a "good" team
2) They really thought getting guys like Patterson and Bako were smart decisions
3) They really thought Baker's track-record of success was of his own making
4) They are just plain bumfuzzled on how to actually put together a winning team
5) They really think the "haul" they got for Jr and Dunn was "good"

Now I'm just mad. And I wouldn't doubt that if BCast could read these replies he'd be thinking, "good grief,I said I was sorry".

gm
08-19-2008, 06:35 PM
we have capitalized on our burgeoning younger players

Has anyone seen the adjective "burgeoning" used by anyone else recently, other than an old sportswriter like Hal McCoy?

registerthis
08-19-2008, 06:38 PM
Has anyone seen the adjective "burgeoning" used by anyone else recently, other than an old sportswriter like Hal McCoy?

I have a burgeoning case of acid reflux after reading that letter.

RedEye
08-19-2008, 06:41 PM
I'll believe it when I see it. The Reds are masters at sending out mixed messages.

True. I guess I just feel like this one is much more connected to reality than past claims about "winning now." In this letter, there are no claims about having a winning team by such-and-such a date... there's just an honest evaluation of the state of the franchise.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 06:41 PM
This reminds me of a half-sincere apology from a husband who doesn't quite understand what he did to tick off his wife. In the end, it only make her more mad.

Especially the part where he blames his stupidity on her being over-weight.

Classic and spot-on.

RedlegJake
08-19-2008, 06:44 PM
No. He was inferring that the fans hated losing the popular stud Lee May but didn't consider that we had gotten a superstar and other good players in return. The situation this time is actually the opposite. Many fans are happy to see our best player traded for three guys that have almost no real potential even if they fully recover from their injuries.

I guess I'm one of many fans and I think you are dead wrong about the players received. They have very real serious potential if they are fully recovered. But go ahead, rip them because they aren't Jay Bruce level talents. Bridge jumping is now a daily part of Reds baseball.

BRM
08-19-2008, 06:46 PM
I have a burgeoning case of acid reflux after reading that letter.

:laugh:

I can always count on RedsZone for a good laugh.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 06:50 PM
I guess I'm one of many fans and I think you are dead wrong about the players received. They have very real serious potential if they are fully recovered. But go ahead, rip them because they aren't Jay Bruce level talents. Bridge jumping is now a daily part of Reds baseball.


The players they've received so far aren't the complete return on the trade.

You have to add the players we pick up with the money we otherwise would have paid Junior and Dunn.

They were short timers. Totally different than the Lee May trade.

Krusty was talking about the reaction of the fans, which I remember well.

Spring~Fields
08-19-2008, 06:54 PM
Since taking ownership of this franchise, we have aggressively tried to improve our Major League roster for the purpose of restoring championship baseball to Cincinnati. We have sought and signed proven players.

:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

Bob's a funny guy when he really tries.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 06:56 PM
Krusty was talking about the reaction of the fans, which I remember well.

The reaction of the fans after the Lee May trade was the exact opposite of the Dunn and Griffey trades. LOL

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 07:00 PM
:bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl::bowrofl:

Bob's a funny guy when he really tries.

He didn't say they were proven to be good -- just proven. :p:

Cordero had proven himself good and has pitched pretty well this season, but with some real duds mixed in. Patterson had proven himself bad and has played horribly. Hairston had proven himself bad for many years, but has played well.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 07:09 PM
The Griffey and Dunn trades reminds me of the reactions of fans during the 1971 offseason when Bob Howsam dealt Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart to the Astros for Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Ed Armbrister, Cesar Geronimo and Jack Billingham.which guy is Joe Morgan?

flyer85
08-19-2008, 07:11 PM
Show me something guys ... the Mets are desperate because Wagner isn't coming back anytime soon, find a way to get Cordero to them.

Chip R
08-19-2008, 07:21 PM
In this letter, there are no claims about having a winning team by such-and-such a date... there's just an honest evaluation of the state of the franchise.



While the run production generated by these two veterans will not be quickly replaced, we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come.

I understand what they said and why they said it. They aren't going to say, "We're going to suck next year but we hope you come out to watch us anyway." I want action, not words. I didn't care if Wayne and/or Walt never articulate(d) their plan. I want to see them follow through. If they wanted to get rid of Jr. and Dunn, fine. But I don't want them trying to break the bank to sign Pat Burrell or pick up guys like Moises Alou and/or Juan Pierre. I don't want to see them keep 5 utility guys on the 25 man roster because they are scrappy.

fearofpopvol1
08-19-2008, 07:28 PM
Show me something guys ... the Mets are desperate because Wagner isn't coming back anytime soon, find a way to get Cordero to them.

Tell the Mets to get out of 1st place to start. No way the Phillies wouldn't block that.

MartyFan
08-19-2008, 07:36 PM
I need to edit this one just a little bit....


P.S. The losing stops now. We really mean it this time....seriously....we're super duper serious about it....honest!

:beerme:

mth123
08-19-2008, 08:13 PM
The Griffey and Dunn trades reminds me of the reactions of fans during the 1971 offseason when Bob Howsam dealt Lee May, Tommy Helms and Jimmy Stewart to the Astros for Joe Morgan, Denis Menke, Ed Armbrister, Cesar Geronimo and Jack Billingham.

Yeah, except then they got a perennial 15+ game winner, a gold glove CF and a HOF 2B. This time they basically came away with 5 Armbristers.

GAC
08-19-2008, 08:38 PM
We have sought and signed proven players. We have extended the contracts of select current players.

The above really stood out to me.

Since Castellini has taken over, what proven players (and the emphasis is on "proven") have they sought and signed?

I'm not going to try and list every player that has "passed through these halls" since he has taken over, but only those that we have acquired that one might try to classify as "proven". And in most instances that would be a huge stretch, but here goes....

Arroyo, Phillips, Gonzo, Cordero

Phillips wasn't really "proven" when the Reds swooped in and got him from the Indians (who was going to lose him). They took a chance and it has paid off. But at the time, they didn't have any idea how this deal would turn out.

Arroyo? borderline IMO.

Gonzo? We'll just leave that one where it is. ;)

Cordero? 08:$8.5M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout). full no-trade clause 2008-09, limited no-trade clause for remainder of contract.

All I can say to that is "Wow!"

Did I miss any "proven" player acquisitions?

Now lets move on to the "extended the contracts of select current players"....

Harang. Regardless of his disasterous '08 season, that was a good deal (below market).

Arroyo. IMO, a simply rash, unnecessary, and stupid extension. When we acquired him from the Sox he had just signed a 3 year/$11.25M contract (2006-08). That breaks down to... 06:$2.75M, 07:$3.8M, 08:$3.95M.

We give him a 2 yr/25 mil extension (2009/2010), with a team option for 2011. That breaks down to...09:$9.5M, 10:$11M, 11:$11M club option ($2M buyout). 2011 option may increase to $13M based on IP.

That extension, coupled with Arroyo's erratic performance, has basically made him untradeable to a vast majority of teams. Under the old contract it was a very strong possibility we could have not only traded him in '08, but probably got some sound prospects in return. Pray that he starts to live up to that contract.

Freel. Do we need to go there? ;)

Phillips. 4 years/$27M (2008-11), plus 2012 club option (12M). Escalators based on awards may bring total package to $43.25M.

We'll give the Phillip's contract a passing score.

But looking at all the above, I'm not overly impressed.

Now as to the future....

We haven't been winning for how many years now? So it's not like they are dismantling a juggernaut here. Something has to be done. And I have greater faith in Jocketty then I do in the previous GMs if that is going to be accomplished. I like some of the moves Walt has made, even though I'm still disappointed in the Dunn trade.

But the bottom line is turning this team around and restoring this organization.


we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come.

That's simply more PR baloney. Can this team be "competitive" in '09? Anything is possible, but I don't see it. What moves (acquisitions) has Walt made at this stage that should raise those expectations going into the '09 season?

They've signed a majority of their 50 draft picks, including Alonso, as well as two premier Venezuelan players who are 16 yrs old.

Good moves; but does us little good in the very immediate future.

As for the "many seasons to come" line.... we'll see.

KittyDuran
08-19-2008, 08:55 PM
No. He was inferring that the fans hated losing the popular stud Lee May but didn't consider that we had gotten a superstar and other good players in return.I have a problem with your explanation of the reaction of the fans (because I and many of my friends were there and had very vivid reactions- read angry). All five players (including Morgan, who was rumored to be a "troublemaker, Geronimo was to me an unknown, Armbrister was a minor leaguer, Menke was a servicable 3rd baseman and Billingham was a pretty good pitcher) were at the time to the average Reds fan no substitute for what the Reds gave up. Hindsight is 20-20 so we all know how the story ended. But even Howsam thought he had given Houston the championship after the trade. I truly didn't warm up to Morgan until the 75 season.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 09:01 PM
I have a problem with your explanation of the reaction of the fans (because I and many of my friends were there and had very vivid reactions- read angry). All five players (including Morgan, who was rumored to be a "troublemaker, Geronimo was to me an unknown, Armbrister was a minor leaguer, Menke was a servicable 3rd baseman and Billingham was a pretty good pitcher) were at the time to the average Reds fan no substitute for what the Reds gave up. Hindsight is 20-20 so we all know how the story ended. But even Howsam thought he had given Houston the championship after the trade. I truly didn't warm up to Morgan until the 75 season.

I understand. That is my whole point.

The fans back then did not like the trade. This time most fans do like the trade.

That is the difference between then and now.

Back then we wanted to keep May, but ended up with a superstar and some other good players.

This time most fans wanted Dunn and Griffey to be gone even though the most optimistic fans don't even think we received much in return.

Back then people were upset we lost a good player, this time people are happy we lost our best player. So the situation is completely different than the May for Morgan trade.

GAC
08-19-2008, 09:06 PM
I remember that trade. Losing May really upset me, and I got a chance to tell that to Lee last year when I met him at Redsfest. ;)

And you are right Kitty.... we had no idea that we were getting a future "superstar" in return.


this time people are happy we lost our best player.

I don't see where too many are happy about it. I'd say a vast majority are not; but they are willing to give Jocketty his opportunity to turn this team around since we haven't seen a winning season in 8 years.

And if that means sacrificing a Dunn, then go for it.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 09:20 PM
I don't see where too many are happy about it. I'd say a vast majority are not; but they are willing to give Jocketty his opportunity to turn this team around since we haven't seen a winning season in 8 years.

And if that means sacrificing a Dunn, then go for it.



I agree with GAC and Kitty.

They made the point I was trying to make much better.

gonelong
08-19-2008, 09:22 PM
This isn't a plan; it's a collective blame job meant to allay fan revolt and an admission that "win now" didn't work. One thing the letter was noticeably free from was accountability in the front office. They outlined all the things they tried to do, implying it should have worked, and then passed the buck on to the players failing to meet expectations. There was no admission that the expectations were out of line with reality and the moves made were insufficent at best, misguided at worst. That scares me.

While we'd all love to see that kind of realistic and objective self loathing from the front office for the job they have done, it's just not going to happen in that type of forum, if ever.

It's at least the beginning of a plan IMO. The last half dozen years we've watched the franchise half-hearted attempts to "compete". Maybe this smells to you, but at least it smells different to me. Hopefully they will at some point elaborate a bit.

But for now ... is it a good plan? Can they execute the plan? Don't know ... but at least they don't seem to be buying all their explosives from the ACME company going forward.

GL

edabbs44
08-19-2008, 09:23 PM
The above really stood out to me.

Since Castellini has taken over, what proven players (and the emphasis is on "proven") have they sought and signed?

I'm not going to try and list every player that has "passed through these halls" since he has taken over, but only those that we have acquired that one might try to classify as "proven". And in most instances that would be a huge stretch, but here goes....

Arroyo, Phillips, Gonzo, Cordero

Phillips wasn't really "proven" when the Reds swooped in and got him from the Indians (who was going to lose him). They took a chance and it has paid off. But at the time, they didn't have any idea how this deal would turn out.

Arroyo? borderline IMO.

Gonzo? We'll just leave that one where it is. ;)

Cordero? 08:$8.5M, 09:$12M, 10:$12M, 11:$12M, 12:$12M club option ($1M buyout). full no-trade clause 2008-09, limited no-trade clause for remainder of contract.

All I can say to that is "Wow!"

Did I miss any "proven" player acquisitions?

Now lets move on to the "extended the contracts of select current players"....

Harang. Regardless of his disasterous '08 season, that was a good deal (below market).

Arroyo. IMO, a simply rash, unnecessary, and stupid extension. When we acquired him from the Sox he had just signed a 3 year/$11.25M contract (2006-08). That breaks down to... 06:$2.75M, 07:$3.8M, 08:$3.95M.

We give him a 2 yr/25 mil extension (2009/2010), with a team option for 2011. That breaks down to...09:$9.5M, 10:$11M, 11:$11M club option ($2M buyout). 2011 option may increase to $13M based on IP.

That extension, coupled with Arroyo's erratic performance, has basically made him untradeable to a vast majority of teams. Under the old contract it was a very strong possibility we could have not only traded him in '08, but probably got some sound prospects in return. Pray that he starts to live up to that contract.

Freel. Do we need to go there? ;)

Phillips. 4 years/$27M (2008-11), plus 2012 club option (12M). Escalators based on awards may bring total package to $43.25M.

We'll give the Phillip's contract a passing score.

But looking at all the above, I'm not overly impressed.

Now as to the future....

We haven't been winning for how many years now? So it's not like they are dismantling a juggernaut here. Something has to be done. And I have greater faith in Jocketty then I do in the previous GMs if that is going to be accomplished. I like some of the moves Walt has made, even though I'm still disappointed in the Dunn trade.

But the bottom line is turning this team around and restoring this organization.



That's simply more PR baloney. Can this team be "competitive" in '09? Anything is possible, but I don't see it. What moves (acquisitions) has Walt made at this stage that should raise those expectations going into the '09 season?

They've signed a majority of their 50 draft picks, including Alonso, as well as two premier Venezuelan players who are 16 yrs old.

Good moves; but does us little good in the very immediate future.

As for the "many seasons to come" line.... we'll see.

Amazing that a post like this only a year ago would have gotten quite the rude reception.

I think that it is a little unfair to call Bob out in this way...he has definitely opened his wallet. But the guy who decided to spend it on people like Cordero, Gonzo, Freel, Castro, Cormier, Arroyo, Stanton, etc is now gone. The above post is a good illustration on why he did a poor job as GM.

I am willing to give Walt a chance. But I'd like to see a better approach than the other guy took.

KittyDuran
08-19-2008, 09:24 PM
I remember that trade. Losing May really upset me, and I got a chance to tell that to Lee last year when I met him at Redsfest. ;)

And you are right Kitty.... we had no idea that we were getting a future "superstar" in return.



I don't see where too many are happy about it. I'd say a vast majority are not; but they are willing to give Jocketty his opportunity to turn this team around since we haven't seen a winning season in 8 years.

And if that means sacrificing a Dunn, then go for it.I agree. Don't let the media and the "fans" who populate the internet tell you the real story - its amazing what can be said behind an anonymous keyboard. Every fan (except one) and excluding those I know on this board were very upset at the trading of Dunn and Junior - I'll call them the silent majority.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 09:35 PM
I hate to point out the obvious, but his career managerial record is a winning one. (1217-1111 .523)

No he's never won a WS...

Right man for THIS job? That's the debate...

Baker was fortunate enough to have managed some of the best players in baseball history. Given that he was handed so much top-notch talent he should have a winning percentage that is much better than .523. Castellini should have looked at the circumstances in which Baker earned his winning record before crediting him with being a proven winner.

It is still early in his Reds career, but I have not been impressed with anything he has done yet.

He is at the bottom of the bellcurve when it comes to strategy and comprehension of sabermetrics. He has also completely failed to motivate the team.

Baker's handling of the pitching staff has been better than I expected -- and is certainly better than Jerry Narron's complete incompetence. But he has still made quite a few mistakes and has abused Harang and Cueto.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 09:40 PM
I agree. Don't let the media and the "fans" who populate the internet tell you the real story - its amazing what can be said behind an anonymous keyboard. Every fan (except one) and excluding those I know on this board were very upset at the trading of Dunn and Junior - I'll call them the silent majority.

I was very against the Dunn trade and was for the Griffey trade.

I would say the people on Redszone don't have much in common with the vast majority of Reds fans in the community. I can tell you that about 90% of the fans I have spoken with were glad to be rid of Dunn. Callers to WLW sports talk have been strongly in favor of getting rid of Dunn and Griffey too.

I guess you have been exposed to a vastly different crowd than I have.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 09:42 PM
I can tell you that about 90% of the fans I have spoken with were glad to be rid of Dunn. Callers to WLW sports talk have been strongly in favor of getting rid of Dunn and Griffey too.

I guess you have been exposed to a vastly different crowd than I have.


You need to hang out with smarter people and stop listening to WLW.

:p:

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 09:59 PM
What do you expect them to say?

"Yup, it's a crap product -- but, isn't it nice to spend an evening outdoors and away from the hassles of home and work?"

Once again, the Cincinnati Reds find themselves a team without an identity. They missed their opportunity to go into full rebuild mode a few years ago, and now the ship has sailed. They don't have enough talent in the near-majors pipeline to go full youth, they don't have the cash to go out and sign players in the market (and, for that matter, there simply isn't the quality talent pool to sign from), and they don't have the onions to move players like Bruce, Votto, and Phillips in the hope of getting back multiple high-level prospects that might open a window of contention in 2 or 3 years.

They crapped out. Literally, the only thing that will bring this team into contention next year is a series of extremely shrewd deals and multiple high-risk/high-upside signings working out.

Does Walt have it in him? He's done magic before, but there is just too much wrong with this team to fix in one offseason.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 11:07 PM
You need to hang out with smarter people and stop listening to WLW.

:p:

LOL

You can't choose your family. :D

I am a scientist (Chemistry and Microbiology), so my coworkers and friends are mostly very intelligent, but they are not baseball fans.

I loathe WLW and the morons that host their call-in shows. The people that call in are even dumber.

AtomicDumpling
08-19-2008, 11:23 PM
What do you expect them to say?

"Yup, it's a crap product -- but, isn't it nice to spend an evening outdoors and away from the hassles of home and work?"

Once again, the Cincinnati Reds find themselves a team without an identity. They missed their opportunity to go into full rebuild mode a few years ago, and now the ship has sailed. They don't have enough talent in the near-majors pipeline to go full youth, they don't have the cash to go out and sign players in the market (and, for that matter, there simply isn't the quality talent pool to sign from), and they don't have the onions to move players like Bruce, Votto, and Phillips in the hope of getting back multiple high-level prospects that might open a window of contention in 2 or 3 years.

They crapped out. Literally, the only thing that will bring this team into contention next year is a series of extremely shrewd deals and multiple high-risk/high-upside signings working out.

Does Walt have it in him? He's done magic before, but there is just too much wrong with this team to fix in one offseason.

I agree with most of your post. They haven't made a commitment to rebuild, nor a commitment to win now. They have been straddling the line for years. They have been hoarding prospects for years, most of which have gotten hurt or just plain failed to develop.

Jocketty's history has shown him to be willing to trade good prospects for star players like McGwire, Rolen and Edmonds so it is possible the Reds could trade the likes of Votto, Bailey, Cueto, Bruce or even Volquez in order to obtain stars. So far though, Jocketty has done the opposite of his history and has traded a star player in Adam Dunn for some mediocre minor leaguers.

When Jocketty was in St. Louis he was allowed to dramatically increase the payroll to make things happen. So far in Cincinnati the only thing he has done is reduce the payroll.

I believe the Reds do have the financial resources to significantly increase the payroll to at least $100 million. Before you disagree, consider that the Reds paid $88-90 million to players this season once you count signing bonuses, performance bonuses, deferred money, "dead money" paid to players no longer on the team and include all 35 or so players that have played for the Reds this season. Factor in the fact the Reds have made $16-20 million per season in profit over each of the last few years. Factor in the value of the team rising by tens of millions over the last few years. Factor in that Castellini hasn't infused the team with any of his money yet (like other owners do). Once you take all of that into consideration it is very feasible the Reds could spend over $100 million per year on player payroll and still make a nice profit.

Despite the progaganda we have been fed by the local media and the Lindner family, the Cincinnati Reds are not a small market team like the Rays, Marlins and Royals. The Reds have plenty of money to spend should they choose to do so. So far they have been content to field a poor team while raking in huge profits. Maybe someday they will decide to be winners in baseball instead of winners in business.

IslandRed
08-20-2008, 12:15 AM
Factor in the value of the team rising by tens of millions over the last few years.

It's definitely a factor in team ownership, but it's not liquid money that can be spent on annual payroll, not unless the team's equity is being used as a big fat credit card, which isn't too smart.


Factor in that Castellini hasn't infused the team with any of his money yet (like other owners do).

I don't think that happens around baseball nearly as often as you're thinking. The day of a baseball team as a sporting gentleman's toy is pretty much over.

Wheelhouse
08-20-2008, 01:17 AM
What a desperate way to try to keep Dusty, a clear failure ....

durl
08-20-2008, 08:55 AM
I'm no expert on managerial accomplishments but is Dusty really the "winning" manager that the Reds need him to be? Prior to coming to Cincinnati, he managed for 14 years with an overall record (including this year) of 1217-1112 or .523. Some things jump out at me in his record, though.

In his first year, the Giants finished 44 games over .500. That's a big chunk of his 115 over .500 record. After 115 wins, his next best seasons were 97 wins, 95 wins, and 90 wins (twice). Not counting this year, he's averaged a record of 83-74. Take out his first season and his average is 81-76. Granted, that's better than the Reds have done lately but it's not an amazing record to me.

His teams have finished 1st 3 times in 14 (now 15) years. Granted, he did manage the Cubs (the CUBS) to a first place finish in 2003. Dusty managed teams finished above .500 in 9 of 14 seasons. In his last few years as manager, his teams have won 95, 88, 89, 79, and 66 games. (This year will probably be under 70.) After this season, his teams will have finished 4th or worse 5 out of 15 seasons.

He has a better track record than anybody else the Reds have hired over the past 10 years, but I haven't seen anything this year that makes me believe he's the man to lead the Reds back to a winning franchise.

traderumor
08-20-2008, 08:59 AM
What I see is that many people have their mind made up about the owner, GM, and manager. Castellini is paying attention and injecting a lot of capital in the future as opposed to an impetuous owner and one doing an impersonation of what a baseball owner would look like in "Night of the Living Dead." What I see is that Jocketty had a sustained winning product that was built from scratch on his last job, a system that is still producing, I might add (I'm sure it's all to the new guy's credit, though). Dusty also was a huge success in SF and his detractors discount it to the point of denial that it even happened.

Good job reaching out to the fans, as I remember reading in another thread where "marketing works." I guess any less than an admittance that all the RZ experts were right is not going to fly here.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 10:11 AM
I don't really understand some of the reactions here.

There have been complaints for years that the Reds never tell us what their "plan" is.

It looks like there was an attempt to communicate with the fans, and then the FO gets slammed, because they mentioned Baker as a positive.

I think this was a good idea. When I read it, I saw the Reds acknowledging that 2008 was a disaster and they are trying to grab young talent. I also liked the way the Reds acknowledged Dunn and Jr and wished them well. That is a welcome change from the way the Reds used to operate (Leak stories to the press about the traded player being a problem child or greedy).

Kc61
08-20-2008, 10:12 AM
What I see is that many people have their mind made up about the owner, GM, and manager. Castellini is paying attention and injecting a lot of capital in the future as opposed to an impetuous owner and one doing an impersonation of what a baseball owner would look like in "Night of the Living Dead." What I see is that Jocketty had a sustained winning product that was built from scratch on his last job, a system that is still producing, I might add (I'm sure it's all to the new guy's credit, though). Dusty also was a huge success in SF and his detractors discount it to the point of denial that it even happened.

Good job reaching out to the fans, as I remember reading in another thread where "marketing works." I guess any less than an admittance that all the RZ experts were right is not going to fly here.

Good post.

While they'll never admit it, my guess is that Jocketty told Castellini that his desire to win short term is impossible without a massive outlay of funds. That the only realistic way to create a good product is from the ground up.

The unfortunate thing is that this should have happened about six years ago, when it became apparent that the Griffey deal had not resulted in a winning team. Instead, Bowden, then DanO and then Krivsky used a middle ground approach. They should have "blown up" the major league team and put most of the investment in prospects.

The Reds finally are moving in that direction now, putting most of the emphasis on stockpiling prospects who can be developed or traded as need be.

As for the short term, the offense to me is almost irrelevant. Until the team puts together five reasonably effective starting pitchers, they will go nowhere even if Adam Dunn, Ryan Howard, Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth show up. The Harang/Arroyo performances this year -- particularly with their contracts -- are major concerns for the immediate future.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 10:22 AM
I don't really understand some of the reactions here.

There have been complaints for years that the Reds never tell us what their "plan" is.

It looks like there was an attempt to communicate with the fans, and then the FO gets slammed, because they mentioned Baker as a positive.

I think this was a good idea. When I read it, I saw the Reds acknowledging that 2008 was a disaster and they are trying to grab young talent. I also liked the way the Reds acknowledged Dunn and Jr and wished them well. That is a welcome change from the way the Reds used to operate (Leak stories to the press about the traded player being a problem child or greedy).


I still don't see any plan here. I don't see much difference between this letter and the one John Allen put in the Enquirer after Guillen and Boone were traded in 2003. The messenger is different but the message is still the same.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 10:25 AM
I'm no expert on managerial accomplishments but is Dusty really the "winning" manager that the Reds need him to be? Prior to coming to Cincinnati, he managed for 14 years with an overall record (including this year) of 1217-1112 or .523. Some things jump out at me in his record, though.
.

Torre's career record is .538. I'm sure if you throw out his best 2 years, it will go down too. Torre certainly had far more "loaded" teams than Baker ever had.

LaRussa's record is .535


I think Dusty stacks up pretty well in career W-L record. Not many current managers have worked that long and have a record better than Dusty. (Bobby Cox is perhaps the only exception.)
Sure, LaRussa and Torre did better, but not by a huge margin.

KittyDuran
08-20-2008, 10:28 AM
You need to hang out with smarter people and stop listening to WLW.

:p::KoolAid:

Kc61
08-20-2008, 10:51 AM
I still don't see any plan here. I don't see much difference between this letter and the one John Allen put in the Enquirer after Guillen and Boone were traded in 2003. The messenger is different but the message is still the same.


The Reds aren't going to announce a "plan" in a letter to fans. They want to maintain flexibility rather than be wedded to a plan laid out in some email to ticket holders.

The plan is evident from the refusal to re-sign Dunn and the investment in Alonso, the two late round picks (paid over slot) and the bonuses paid to the young players from Latin America. More emphasis on prospects.

It will be interesting to see if the Reds shell out big dollars for veterans in the off-season. My guess is that the investment in the big club will be modest, with continuing emphasis on youth.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 11:07 AM
The Reds aren't going to announce a "plan" in a letter to fans. They want to maintain flexibility rather than be wedded to a plan laid out in some email to ticket holders.

The plan is evident from the refusal to re-sign Dunn and the investment in Alonso, the two late round picks (paid over slot) and the bonuses paid to the young players from Latin America. More emphasis on prospects.

It will be interesting to see if the Reds shell out big dollars for veterans in the off-season. My guess is that the investment in the big club will be modest, with continuing emphasis on youth.


Some people are under the impression that this is the plan. Personally, I don't care about some verbal or written plan. I would like to see a semblence of consistancy in their actions. As I said previously, if you're going to get rid of Dunn, don't sign a Burrell. If you're going with youth, don't sign Moises Alou or Juan Pierre. Anyone can shell out money for draftees and Latin American players. It doesn't mean that they are going with a youth movement though.

Kc61
08-20-2008, 11:14 AM
Some people are under the impression that this is the plan. Personally, I don't care about some verbal or written plan. I would like to see a semblence of consistancy in their actions. As I said previously, if you're going to get rid of Dunn, don't sign a Burrell. If you're going with youth, don't sign Moises Alou or Juan Pierre. Anyone can shell out money for draftees and Latin American players. It doesn't mean that they are going with a youth movement though.


Well the money isn't endless. If they are spending so much on the prospects it shouldn't translate into major off-season free agent signings. It's a matter of allocating resources and the team seems to be pointing to youth right now.

I agree with you on free agent signings to a point, but obviously they have to field a team next year. It's not inconsistent with a youth movement to sign some mid-level free agents or to make some trades for veterans.

I also think it would be ok to sign a veteran catcher. Somebody who can work well with the younger pitchers, take charge on the field, and provide occasional offense.

Youth movement doesn't have to be 100 percent. It can be 80-20 or 70-30 and still be a youth movement.

traderumor
08-20-2008, 12:22 PM
The Reds, whether they like it or not, are in a "youth movement." Their core of talent to build around (Phillips, EE, Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez) are in their early to mid 20s.

durl
08-20-2008, 12:50 PM
Torre's career record is .538. I'm sure if you throw out his best 2 years, it will go down too. Torre certainly had far more "loaded" teams than Baker ever had.

LaRussa's record is .535


I think Dusty stacks up pretty well in career W-L record. Not many current managers have worked that long and have a record better than Dusty. (Bobby Cox is perhaps the only exception.)
Sure, LaRussa and Torre did better, but not by a huge margin.

I'm with you on Dusty's record compared to LaRussa and Torre. He is, to be certain, a "winning" manager with a total W/L record above .500. That's why I pointed out Dusty's downward trend line.

Fair comparisons among managers can be difficult. Managing in the AL East can be far different than in the NL Central.

Torre's win percentage was .405 with the Mets and .498 with the Cards. However, with the Yankees it was .605. Larussa's win percentage was .542 in Oakland and .543 in St. Louis. Larussa's lowest percentage was with the White Sox at .506.

Torre and Larussa have had pretty consistent win counts each year over the past 10 years (Larussa has been down the past couple of years) but Dusty's record is a pretty straight line downward for 5 years now.

I guess I can't say with 100% certainty that Dusty isn't the right choice for the Reds. This may become his team (I'm guessing he'll claim responsibility when they start winning...) in the very near future and he can make them a winner.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 01:07 PM
I still don't see any plan here. I don't see much difference between this letter and the one John Allen put in the Enquirer after Guillen and Boone were traded in 2003. The messenger is different but the message is still the same.

Except this time, they are actually putting their money where their mouth is.

They are paying 2nd round money to late round draft picks. They are signing expensive Latin players. Even if one dislikes Dusty, at least ownership hired a manager based on something other than the lowest bid. That gives one hope that if Dusty does not work out, he'll be replaced with someone better (instead of cheaper).

The letter said they were going to try to make the team better next year. This time, I actually believe an attempt will be made to do that.

Also, trading Dunn and Jr does not compare to the 2003 firesale, when the Reds gave away players (some of which were still under club control for awhile). If the Reds gave away Harang, Phillips, Arroyo, Volquez, etc for a pile of cash, then I'd agree with you, this would smell a lot like 2003.

REDREAD
08-20-2008, 01:19 PM
I'm with you on Dusty's record compared to LaRussa and Torre. He is, to be certain, a "winning" manager with a total W/L record above .500. That's why I pointed out Dusty's downward trend line.


I'm not a huge Dusty fan, but there's no manager in baseball that could've managed this team out of the basement this year. It was a horrible team.

I will point out some things that I liked about Dusty.

He had no leadoff man. He failed with the Patterson experiment, but cut bait at a reasonable time. Not as fast as some would like, but 120 AB or so is a reasonable amount of time, given his options. Then he got it right with Harriston. For all the criticism Dusty gets for Patterson, Patterson was sent down and only recalled due to injuries and lack of depth in OF.

It was reported that Dusty was a big impetus behind getting rid of Stanton.
I can believe that. I think if we had a Miley-like puppet manager, we would've been stuck watching Stanton most of this year, on the smallest glimmer of hope that Stanton could be dealt at the deadline and save face for Wayne.
I am glad we didn't have to suffer through that. I'm glad Dusty does not accept blatant bad players on his team.

Dusty has been refreshingly honest with the fans and media.

Dusty has done well with the young players. EdE, Phillips, Votto, and Bruce have thrived under him. Especially EdE.

Dusty has done a great job handling the pitching staff and bullpen. Again, some people will point to that 18 inning game and disagree, but Dusty has done a good job managing pitch counts. I also like how Dusty has left the young guys out there to fight their own battles instead of giving them the quick hook. If Ceuto is ever going to be an ace, he needs to learn to how to handle adversity. I have no problem with Dusty letting Ceuto get spanked a couple times, because I think it will help Ceuto mature.

I do agree that Dusty doesn't generate optimal lineups. That is a valid criticism. However, I think the impact of this is vastly overstated. Batting Dunn 2nd or 3rd would not make a whole lot of difference. I think Dusty was trying to make Dunn an RBI guy, but Dunn kept on doing what he always does (look for the walk with men on base, unless the pitch is exactly what he wants).

So, I think Dusty has brought some value to the team this year. I know some people think that Pete McKannen could've gotten this team to .500 this year, but I don't think any manager could've.

15fan
08-20-2008, 01:30 PM
Dear Bob & Walt,

I think you'd have been better off letting both Junior and Dunn walk as FAs at the end of the year and making additional picks in the 09 draft. Based on your preference for the lackluster return for those two guys, I can only assume that you'll be firing everyone in charge of evaluating & drafting players.

This feels an awful lot like 1998. That's the year that we were told the Reds were going to get younger, cheaper, and better. The beginning of the season featured a photo of 4 of the Reds around whom the Reds were going to build: Jon Nunnally, Chris Stynes, Eduardo Perez &...(Pokey, maybe?).

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

westofyou
08-20-2008, 01:45 PM
This feels an awful lot like 1998. That's the year that we were told the Reds were going to get younger, cheaper, and better. The beginning of the season featured a photo of 4 of the Reds around whom the Reds were going to build: Jon Nunnally, Chris Stynes, Eduardo Perez &...(Pokey, maybe?).

Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.


http://reds.enquirer.com/1998/baseball98/covernewguys.jpg


They are the poster boys for the next generation of Reds' players: Jon Nunnally, Chris Stynes, Brett Tomko, Eduardo Perez. If they fail, plenty of other capable youngsters are waiting eagerly: Dmitri Young, Melvin Nieves, Aaron Boone, Pokey Reese, Jim Crowell, Scott Winchester.

The Reds aren't putting all their hopes on one or two players, and they're not hyping these guys as the Next Big Things. They know that half a season, even as hot as Nunnally, Stynes, Perez and Tomko were, doesn't make a good ballplayer.

But what the Reds do believe is that even a payroll crisis can be a good thing, because it has forced them to go with a gaggle of talented young players as opposed to the quick-fix, veteran free-agent approach of the early 1990s.

Fans responded to this team last year, seeing an energized ballcub once McKeon and the kids took over. These players were different. They played like they were fighting for jobs, fighting for wins. And they even bothered to stop to sign autographs, as if being a baseball player was a privilege.

"We're just going to be the players we are," Nunnally said. "Guys who go out and play hard, just do the little things that we know we're capable of doing. We're going to take the extra base and move the runners over. We're going to play the only way we know: hard."

nate
08-20-2008, 01:51 PM
Oh man! That picture begs for it's own thread!

Chip R
08-20-2008, 02:20 PM
The more things change....

registerthis
08-20-2008, 02:49 PM
Except this time, they are actually putting their money where their mouth is.

They are paying 2nd round money to late round draft picks. They are signing expensive Latin players. Even if one dislikes Dusty, at least ownership hired a manager based on something other than the lowest bid. That gives one hope that if Dusty does not work out, he'll be replaced with someone better (instead of cheaper).

At best, you could say the jury is still out on these types of moves. Although I can say that the Reds don't exactly inspire confidence in their scouting ability, if history is any judge. In other words, I'm not certain I'd hang my hat on things like "paying 2nd round money to late round draft picks" until I'm convinced that the Reds actually know what they're doing with those late round picks.

The team that was assembled this year was nowhere close to being competitive, even with Dunn and Junior still around. So now they're jettisoning the high-priced talent and going in a "younger, cheaper' direction. Yep, I've heard that song before. Too many times, actually, to even be able to count. Just remember: for every Dunn or Cueto that comes through the Reds system, there are 50 Ty Howingtons.

jmcclain19
08-20-2008, 02:57 PM
I still don't see any plan here. I don't see much difference between this letter and the one John Allen put in the Enquirer after Guillen and Boone were traded in 2003. The messenger is different but the message is still the same.

This is exactly what I came here to post. I vividly remember reading that five years ago and I think that letter could have Bob Castellini's name at the bottom and you could change the player names and it's a virtual carbon copy.

That's where the extreme pessimism comes from.

What's worse: A do nothing owner who lets the team rot from the core? Or a micro managing meddler who changes the teams direction & focus every few months?

One of the things that bothers me the most about Castellini now - is supposedly he fired Krivsky because he wanted to win now - yet just three months later he's ok with rebuilding? Was Krivksy's sell job that bad. Or Jocketty was the one who finally convinced him it was time to tear the house down to its foundations).

All I know is - we'd all better hope that Jocketty is as good as advertised or the Reds are in a world of trouble.

The team is a shoo-in for 95 losses this year and barring a miracle I don't see how they won't lose 95-100 next year as well.

mbgrayson
08-20-2008, 03:02 PM
Hal McCoy's take on the letter:



The Real McCoy: Dear Fans: Yada, yada, yada

By Hal McCoy | Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 06:26 PM

It always boggles my mind when a baseball team sends a letter to its season-ticket holders - begging forgiveness or begging patience or just plain begging.

Cincinnati Reds ticket holders received this letter, signed by owner Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty this week. It’s a long letter that is short on substance. What’s the plan? Are they trying to win in 2009 or 2012 or the nth of never?

They talked about signing No. 1 draft pick Yonder Alonso. You won’t see him for three years, two at the closest. They talked about signing two 16-year-old kids. What are they, five years away?

They talked about signing 35 of 50 draft choices. If three make it to the majors they’ll be fortunate - and that’s years down the road, too.

They want your “trust and patience.” Trust? Patience? Reds fans have been trusting and patient ever since they were promised a winner when voters approved a new stadium. How’s that worked out? Eight years of losing.

They talked about signing selected players to extended contracts — Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips. Hows that worked out?

They talk about trading Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, a move that they say sacrifices the short-term for the long-term. But they also talk about the trade benefiting the team in 2009. How is that going to work? The only player they obtained in those two trades who is a major-leaguer (for 2009) would be pitcher Micah Owings, and he hasn’t been very good lately.

They don’t talk about possibly signing big-ticket free agents or acquiring high-profile players in trades for 2009. The truth is that the Reds needed to draw 2.4 million this year to break even.

That isn’t going to happen. So where will they make up the shortfall? Most likely a reduced payroll.

Castellini and Jocketty are honorable men, hard-working guys with their hopes and dreams in the right place. But this letter that mostly talks around the issues probably won’t appease too many fans. In fact, alienation comes to mind.

IslandRed
08-20-2008, 03:07 PM
Setting aside the marketing piffle in the letter, the plan should be rather obvious:

The guy who has actually built a consistent winning team is going to roll up his sleeves and try to build a consistent winning team.

That plan probably won't have a bestselling book written about it, but it just might work. Sure beats the last three or four... six... I've lost count.

Chip R
08-20-2008, 03:10 PM
Very good, Hal.

ramp101
08-20-2008, 04:11 PM
Baseball Prospectus' response (http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=993)

sorry if posted...

Krusty
08-20-2008, 04:21 PM
The beauty of this is to sit back and watch Jocketty go to work this offseason. I still think he will build the club from the farm system with a trade or two. But to acquire a couple of quick fixes in free agency isn't most likely unless they want to spend millions on a free agent starter.

BCubb2003
08-20-2008, 04:35 PM
It seems like most experts predicted the Reds to finish third this year, at the top of the non-contenders.

Matt700wlw
08-20-2008, 04:38 PM
It seems like most experts predicted the Reds to finish third this year, at the top of the non-contenders.

That's first in the NL SUB-central.

BCubb2003
08-20-2008, 04:43 PM
That's first in the NL SUB-central.

NL Central Div. II

Ltlabner
08-20-2008, 04:49 PM
Some people are under the impression that this is the plan. Personally, I don't care about some verbal or written plan. I would like to see a semblence of consistancy in their actions. As I said previously, if you're going to get rid of Dunn, don't sign a Burrell. If you're going with youth, don't sign Moises Alou or Juan Pierre. Anyone can shell out money for draftees and Latin American players. It doesn't mean that they are going with a youth movement though.

Good points.

If they are implementing some sort of plan, they are in the early, early stages of unveiling it.

As you point out, if they dump Jr and Dunn and call it a day its hardly a "rebuilding" let alone a youth movement.

By the end of spring training next year we'll have a far better view into the direction The Jock is taking us.

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2008, 04:51 PM
From Will Carroll:


If they mean Aaron Harang, then the close of the letter makes less sense. If the team is playing for 2009, Harang is now more risky than he was at the start of this season, largely due to the usage patterns put on him by Baker and his staff. We can safely assume that Harang (if healthy), Bronson Arroyo (since they kept him), Edinson Volquez, and Johnny Cueto will be the first four in next yearís Reds rotation. Even without PECOTA, does anyone think that group is going to be significantly better next year than this year?

Umm, Will, yes I expect them to be better. Harang entered this season having thrown three consecutive seasons of 200+ inning of sub 3.85 ERA ball. Arroyo has thrown 1137.1 career innings of 4.37 ERA ball, including three consecutive seasons of 200+ innings. Volquez has blossomed into an ace and Cueto is flashing dominant stuff and should improve next season. Add in Micah Owings or a free agent acquisition and this becomes an above average starting rotation, at least in my opinion.

oregonred
08-20-2008, 05:28 PM
Harang is the absolute key for 2009. A solid Harang (200 IP and sub 4 ERA) and this team is .500 or better next season. I would expect the team ERA to be league average next season; 4.25 or better due to a combination harang, 5th starter and better defense. Cueto's numbers will improve by a run+. Volquez/Arroyo probably balance out (Volquez higher, Arroyo lower)

In the midst of the collective stench since the AS Break, Cueto's been solid since mid-May and Volquez's resurgence has been a great sign. I'm confident Jocketty without much heavy lifting can retool the offense in 2009 to at least put up a minimum collective .740 team OPS (currently at .725 in 2008, league average is .742) without any major FA contract additions.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2008, 06:11 PM
I think Dusty has brought some value to the team this year.

It was a horrible team. ?

It was reported that Dusty was a big impetus behind getting rid of Stanton.

Mercker?

I do agree that Dusty doesn't generate optimal lineups. That is a valid criticism.
Center fielder/Patterson/Bruce
shorstop/Janish/Hairston/Cabrera/Keppinger
Griffey
Phillips
Dunn
?/OBP
?/OBP
?/OBP
Bako


Dusty has done well with the young players. EdE, Phillips, Votto, and Bruce have thrived under him. Especially EdE.
?
defensively?
It was a horrible team.

I'm glad Dusty does not accept blatant bad players on his team.
"Dusty was a big impetus"
Patterson, Bako, Mercker, Hairston?
He failed with the Patterson experiment
Is he still playing centerfield and getting AB/PA?
He had no leadoff man.
Freel, Phillips, Hairston, Keppinger?
It was a horrible team.

Dusty has been refreshingly honest with the fans and media.
"Dusty was a big impetus"
Patterson, Bako, Mercker, Hairston?

Batting Dunn 2nd or 3rd would not make a whole lot of difference.
I think Dusty was trying to make Dunn an RBI guy, ?
Did "Dusty" put guys ahead of Dunn in the order that could get on base a high percentage of time?

I do agree that Dusty doesn't generate optimal lineups. That is a valid criticism.

Runs scored in the national league 12th

It was a horrible team.


:confused: :all_cohol:all_cohol :confused:

OnBaseMachine
08-20-2008, 06:24 PM
In letter, Reds front office lays out strategy for '09 and beyond

Associated Press

Updated: August 20, 2008, 3:30 PM ET

CINCINNATI -- Dear fans: Please be patient.

The Cincinnati Reds explain why they traded stars Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn and ask for patience in a letter sent to fans this week.

"By executing these inevitable changes now, we secured more players as part of our focus towards building a deeper, stronger inventory of young talent," the letter states.

The letter was sent to fans by e-mail and posted on the team Web site. It's signed by owner Bob Castellini and general manager Walt Jocketty and says the team is building with young talent and believes the trades were important for the club's long-term success.

Cincinnati traded Griffey to the Chicago White Sox on July 31 and sent Dunn to Arizona on Aug. 11.

The Reds say they have signed most of their draft picks, including top choice Yonder Alonso from the University of Miami, and other promising young players to go with current young players Joey Votto, Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto.

The Reds fell 22Ĺ games behind the Cubs in the NL Central with Tuesday night's loss in Chicago and are on their way to an eighth straight losing season.

"We had high expectations for the 2008 season," the letter states. "Unfortunately, the team has not played up to our expectations and we have sustained injuries to key players within our starting lineup and rotation."

The letter asks fans for "your continued trust and patience as we build the roster that will get us back on top."

A few excerpts:

• On trading Griffey and Dunn: "While the run production generated by these two veterans will not be quickly replaced, we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come."

• On newly signed young players: "The vast majority of our 50 draft picks were signed, culminating last week with first-rounder Yonder Alonso and a pair of talented pitchers. Our expanded scouting operations also signed Juan Duran from the Dominican Republic and Yorman Rodriguez from Venezuela, who are arguably the best amateur free agent position players from their respective countries."

• On the immediate future: "As we near September, we will continue to provide valuable playing time to our young players and new acquisitions who we feel can become significant contributors at the Major League level. We ask your continued trust and patience as we build the roster that will get us back on top."

The Reds' moves made sense to fan Ian Cioffi. He thought they were paying too much to Griffey for his declining production and that they should try younger players.

"Obviously what we had wasn't working; might as well try something else," the electrician said during a break from work Wednesday.

Willie Wilson, chatting with his friend Harold Atwater on Fountain Square downtown, said he's a lifelong Reds fan but is unhappy with the current state of the team.

"You might not be able to print what I think about them," he said.

Wilson said some fans expected too much from Griffey, whose Reds teams never made it to the playoffs after the 2000 trade that brought him to his hometown.

"They thought he was going to be the savior, the miracle man," Wilson said. "It's not his fault he got hurt."

Atwater thinks the Reds should use the salary money saved by trading Griffey and Dunn on pitchers. But that reminded Wilson of a still-irritating trade before the 1966 season that sent another slugging outfielder away in a move to add pitching.

"I can take you all the way back to when the Reds traded Frank Robinson to Baltimore for Milt Pappas," Wilson said. "And then Robinson won the Triple Crown that year."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3544738&POLL354=100000000000000000000000000000000000000000 0000000000000000

There is an ESPN poll asking what is the state of the Reds. 42.9% believe the Reds are heading in the right direction, 39.6% believe they are treading water, and the other 17.4% believe they are going in the wrong direction.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2008, 06:27 PM
There is an ESPN poll asking what is the state of the Reds. 42.9% believe the Reds are heading in the right direction, 39.6% believe they are treading water, and the other 17.4% believe they are going in the wrong direction.

100 % are not sure, why is that?

15fan
08-20-2008, 11:27 PM
Great find, woy. Bravo.

VR
08-21-2008, 12:01 AM
99 would have been a season of mediocrity if not for the out-of-the-blue acquisition of Greg Vaughn, and unlikely trade for Denny Neagle. Let's hope such acquisitions are in store for Reds 10 years later. It will take that to back up that letter and give fans hope.

GAC
08-22-2008, 09:28 PM
From Will Carroll:



Umm, Will, yes I expect them to be better. Harang entered this season having thrown three consecutive seasons of 200+ inning of sub 3.85 ERA ball. Arroyo has thrown 1137.1 career innings of 4.37 ERA ball, including three consecutive seasons of 200+ innings. Volquez has blossomed into an ace and Cueto is flashing dominant stuff and should improve next season. Add in Micah Owings or a free agent acquisition and this becomes an above average starting rotation, at least in my opinion.

The rotation MAY be better next year. I expect that with the further maturation of Volquez and Cueto.

Arroyo is Arroyo. A career sub-.500 pitcher who will be making 11 mil/yr starting next year.

We better hope Harang recovers next season.

Micah Owings? I admit he had a very promising minor league career. But this kid is not a rookie. He's 28 years old. He won his first four starts of the season with a 2.42 ERA but had not won since May 25, going 0-6 with a 6.87 ERA in his past nine starts. Which earned him a demotion back to AAA.

"It was very difficult," manager Bob Melvin said of the decision. "It became pretty evident we had to clear some things up with Micah. Whether it is confidence ... (or) at times mechanical.

Is he Matt Belisle II? Issue him a locker next to Bailey's. ;)

And then there's the issue of placing these guys under the instruction of Dick Poole. I'm simply excited! :cool:

Regardless of any improvements in the performance of this rotation in '09, I don't see them throwing an ERA out there low enough to counter this team's anemic offensive production. They just subtracted the best offensive ballplayer (leader) off this team in Adam Dunn and replaced him with what? Better defense in the field? I agree.

And what we are looking at now - CPatt and CDick - are they possibly expecting these guys to step it up and be "those" players in '09?

But if further moves are not made in the off-season to add an impact offensive player, and they are simply counting on the further maturation of the younger kids like Bruce and Votto to supplant that, then we are in for a long season in '09. ;)

edabbs44
08-22-2008, 09:35 PM
Micah Owings? I admit he had a very promising minor league career. But this kid is not a rookie. He's 28 years old. He won his first four starts of the season with a 2.42 ERA but had not won since May 25, going 0-6 with a 6.87 ERA in his past nine starts. Which earned him a demotion back to AAA.

Future GAC, what's it like in 2010? :)


Born September 28, 1982 in Gainesville, GA

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2008, 10:45 PM
The rotation MAY be better next year. I expect that with the further maturation of Volquez and Cueto.

Arroyo is Arroyo. A career sub-.500 pitcher who will be making 11 mil/yr starting next year.

We better hope Harang recovers next season.

Micah Owings? I admit he had a very promising minor league career. But this kid is not a rookie. He's 28 years old. He won his first four starts of the season with a 2.42 ERA but had not won since May 25, going 0-6 with a 6.87 ERA in his past nine starts. Which earned him a demotion back to AAA.

"It was very difficult," manager Bob Melvin said of the decision. "It became pretty evident we had to clear some things up with Micah. Whether it is confidence ... (or) at times mechanical.

Is he Matt Belisle II? Issue him a locker next to Bailey's. ;)

And then there's the issue of placing these guys under the instruction of Dick Poole. I'm simply excited! :cool:

Regardless of any improvements in the performance of this rotation in '09, I don't see them throwing an ERA out there low enough to counter this team's anemic offensive production. They just subtracted the best offensive ballplayer (leader) off this team in Adam Dunn and replaced him with what? Better defense in the field? I agree.

And what we are looking at now - CPatt and CDick - are they possibly expecting these guys to step it up and be "those" players in '09?

But if further moves are not made in the off-season to add an impact offensive player, and they are simply counting on the further maturation of the younger kids like Bruce and Votto to supplant that, then we are in for a long season in '09. ;)

Judging a pitcher by won/loss record is a bad way to judge a pitcher. Arroyo is usually good for 200 innings around league average, and that's perfectly fine in the 4th/5th spot in the rotation. And Owings is 25 years old (soon to be 26), not 28.

edabbs44
08-22-2008, 10:51 PM
Judging a pitcher by won/loss record is a bad way to judge a pitcher. Arroyo is usually good for 200 innings around league average, and that's perfectly fine in the 4th/5th spot in the rotation. And Owings is 25 years old (soon to be 26), not 28.

The problem with Arroyo is that, less than 2 years ago, he was being banked on as a front of the rotation guy. He then got a needless big extension and now he is "perfectly fine" as a 4/5 guy?

That's a problem.

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2008, 10:59 PM
The problem with Arroyo is that, less than 2 years ago, he was being banked on as a front of the rotation guy. He then got a needless big extension and now he is "perfectly fine" as a 4/5 guy?

That's a problem.

I don't see the problem. His numbers the past couple seasons have been good enough for a number three starter but with Cueto and Volquez now in the rotation he moves down a spot and further strengthens the rotation. As long he continues to produce like he has over the last few seasons then he'll earn his paycheck.

nate
08-22-2008, 11:01 PM
The problem with Arroyo is that, less than 2 years ago, he was being banked on as a front of the rotation guy. He then got a needless big extension and now he is "perfectly fine" as a 4/5 guy?

That's a problem.

I thought that was the ideal way to improve one's staff. Instead of getting a better "#4" or "#5" guy, get a better "#1" or "#2" guy, thus moving your current "#1" or "#2" guy down a notch or two.

Yachtzee
08-22-2008, 11:22 PM
http://reds.enquirer.com/1998/baseball98/covernewguys.jpg

Cincinnati Reds - The New Traditionalists



http://www.oldies.com/i/boxart/large/65/090431655528.jpg

gm
08-23-2008, 02:25 PM
This feels an awful lot like 1998. That's the year that we were told the Reds were going to get younger, cheaper, and better...
Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I don't know about anyone else, but at this point I'd "settle" for another "almost" season like 1999. Now if only Walt can go out and find another Greg Vaughn and Denny Neagle this offseason...? (not to mention Harnisch, Parris, Villone, Tucker, Hammonds, etc)

GAC
08-23-2008, 05:17 PM
Judging a pitcher by won/loss record is a bad way to judge a pitcher. Arroyo is usually good for 200 innings around league average

I appreciate what Arroyo has done as of late. But that's just it....hot one month, a disaster the next, hot one month, a disaster the next.

He's hot now and some are back on the bandwagon?

Sell high! ;)

The guy, on average, is a 5 inning pitcher. That's a strain on any bullpen. And what really gets me is that it's in the first 3 innings when the opposition gets to him, and a majority of the damage is inflicted.... .307 BA, .374 OB%, .513 SLG%, .887 OPS. But after that he settles down.

ERA 5.32 DIPS 4.57 WHIP 1.50
ER's 89 (2nd)
Hits 171 (3rd)
WHIP 1.50 (42nd)

The opposition .... .287 BA, .351 OB%, .489 SLG%, .834 OPS. He's effective vs RH'd hitters, but lefties kill him... .311 BA .355 OB% .564 SLG% .919.

24 Hrs (6th)
85 RBIs (3rd)


and that's perfectly fine in the 4th/5th spot in the rotation.

At 11 mil/yr? Totally unacceptable.

Spring~Fields
08-24-2008, 10:12 AM
Just turn the page, already
No need for a pep talk; Moves, not letter, are what counts

By John Fay

DENVER - I don't think Bob Castellini and Walt Jocketty needed to write the letter they wrote to the season-ticket holders last week.

First of all, fans already assume everything they promised in the letter anyway - that they're trying to build a long-term winner, that they've decided to stake a large part of the future on young players.

But the purpose of the letter was, in Bob's and Walt's words (I'm not sure who did the typing and who did the over-the-shoulder reading):

"It is important we share with you the thinking behind our recent personnel decisions."

They were referring to the trades of Adam Dunn and Ken Griffey Jr. That's why the letter was unnecessary. I think very few fans are ticked off about the Griffey and Dunn trades. They are fully ready to embrace the youth movement.

What they are ticked off about is management's reluctance to turn the page.

What they are ticked off about is that Corey Patterson's still on the team. I've got nothing against Patterson. But he's hitting .196. It's Aug. 23. He has as much chance of being on the Opening Day roster for 2009 as I do.

If Castellini and Jocketty wanted to win points with fans, they should have designated Patterson for assignment, called up Drew Stubbs and played Stubbs, Chris Dickerson and Jay Bruce in the outfield for the rest of the year.

Is Stubbs ready? I've got no clue. But he has to be on the 40-man roster next year, and it's time to find out.

Patterson isn't the only guy who should be sent out. Josh Fogg is in the starting rotation. Let him go and put Matt Maloney or Homer Bailey in there.

Ryan Hanigan should be catching five days a week.

Turn the page.

That's what fans want.

I'm not sure management is fully committed to that. Both Castellini and Jocketty said in the wake of the Dunn trade that they thought the team could contend in 2009.

I took that to mean that the club will look at bringing in a couple of free agents and make a trade or two to try for another quick fix.

That's how the Reds ended up signing Alex Gonzalez in '07 and Francisco Cordero this year. They were convinced they were a player or two away, so they went with a big-ticket free agent and added some stopgap signees.

It didn't work.

Again, I would not have written the letter, but if I had it would have read like this:

Dear fans:

Thanks for your support. We've tried to bring a winner to Cincinnati since we took over the franchise in 2006.

We thought we could do this quickly. Finishing 80-82 in '06 and staying in the race most of the year reinforced that notion, so we continued down that path. We see now that that was a mistake.

We're still determined to bring a winner to Cincinnati. But we realize now that it's going to take time. We're done signing stopgap free agents. We're going to build a team around player development. It's worked for Milwaukee, Arizona, Florida and Tampa Bay.

We're going to build around our young core of Brandon Phillips, Jay Bruce, Joey Votto, Edinson Volquez and Johnny Cueto. We'll play them with our top minor leaguers for the rest of the season to try to get a jump start on the future.

With veterans like Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo in the rotation, we think a turnaround for 2009 is possible. But we won't deviate from our long-term plan for a quick fix.

Thanks for your patience

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080824/COL09/808240461/1071

corkedbat
08-24-2008, 10:39 AM
I'd agree with Fay about Stubbs/Maloney/Bailey if Louisville weren't playing for something, whereas the Reds are going no where. Personally, I like having prospects exposed to a playoff experience - no matter what the level and I don't mind the secondary benefit of rewarding the Bats and their fans.

I would like to see Dickerson in CF with Rosales in the LF (or 1B w/ Votto in LF). If Adam is gonna be on the roster, play him or send him back down for the playoffs too. Fogg is not really in the rotation either - just took a spot start to give Harang & Volquez extra work.

Once the playoffs are done though, I'm gonna scream everytime Patterson, Valentin or Bako get an AB or Fogg or Majewski pitch an inning.

remdog
08-24-2008, 10:53 AM
I agree with everything you said there cb.

The playoffs extend L'ville's season about 10 days but the exposure to the experience of every game being a 'pressure game' is a valuable learning experience and not every minor league team gets that opportunity. I'll trade 10 days in Cincinnati for that kind of growth for the kids that I want to hunger for it again while wearing a 'Wishbone C'.

Rem

Spring~Fields
08-24-2008, 05:49 PM
A little quiz for ya
If you score 50 percent, you'll be ahead of them
By Richard Skinner

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080824/SPT/808240446/1071

REDS
1. Which of the following quotes can be attributed to Reds owner Bob Castellini:

A. "We will bring championship baseball back to Cincinnati."

B. "We're just not going to lose anymore."

C. "We ask your continued trust and patience as we build the roster that will get us back on top."

D. All of the above.

2. If you correctly answered D, that means Castellini is:

A. Confused.

B. Hoping you continue believing what he says, because he's Bob Castellini, darn it.

C. More bluster than brilliance.

D. All of the above.

3. When Castellini and general manager Walt Jocketty wrote in their letter to Reds fans that after trading Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, "we secured more players as part of our focus toward building a deeper, stronger inventory of young talent," what they meant by that was:

A. Well, at least they freed up money to sign a couple of draft choices they can again dangle in front of you fans in a few years.

B. As someone in the fruit and vegetable business, Mr. Castellini at least understands inventory.

C. Hey, this isn't a fire sale like that creep John Allen pulled on the fans back in 2003.

D. All of the above.

4. When Castellini and Jocketty wrote in their letter to Reds fans that after trading Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, "we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come," what they meant by competitive was:

A. At least 65 wins in 2009.

B. Winning the NL sub-central in 2009 (that would be finishing fourth in the six-team division).

C. There will be plenty more $5 seat/$1 hot dog nights next year, fans. Competitive? What's that?

D. At least 65 wins in 2010.

5. When Reds manager Dusty Baker said a few weeks ago, "this is Wayne Krivsky's team, not Walt Jocketty's and not mine," what he meant was:

A. Next year he's going to roll Jocketty under the bus when the team fails.

B. It's not his fault he let Corey Patterson come to the plate 270 times despite a .196 average and .233 on-base percentage; his talking dog told him to do it.

C. It's not his fault he screwed up Aaron Harang with that relief stint in San Diego back in May; the Reds needed a win, darn it.

D. He wishes he could blame this on Steve Bartman, but he's still in Chicago.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080824/SPT/808240446/1071

nate
08-24-2008, 05:59 PM
I got 100% right!

klw
08-28-2008, 03:07 PM
Should this article be sent back to BCAST and Jocketty as a response.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/life/stories/2008/08/27/1A_NEIL_DIAMOND_FOLO.ART_ART_08-27-08_A1_U5B58IP.html?sid=101