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BLEEDS
08-19-2008, 04:30 PM
Dear Fans,

Thank you for your loyalty and support of the Cincinnati Reds. You are extremely vital to the success of the Reds, and it is important we share with you the thinking behind our recent personnel decisions.

Since taking ownership of this franchise, we have aggressively tried to improve our Major League roster for the purpose of restoring championship baseball to Cincinnati. We have sought and signed proven players. We have extended the contracts of select current players. We added Dusty Baker, a proven winning manager. And, we have capitalized on our burgeoning younger players like Joey Votto, Jay Bruce and Johnny Cueto.

We had high expectations for the 2008 season. Unfortunately the team has not played up to our expectations and we have sustained injuries to key players within our starting lineup and rotation.

We opted to trade Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn at this time because we believe it provided the best outcome for the long-term success of the organization. By executing these inevitable changes now, we secured more players as part of our focus towards building a deeper, stronger inventory of young talent.

We are pleased that the trades allow Griffey and Dunn the opportunity to play for teams in tight division races. Both Ken and Adam made significant contributions to the Reds and we are extremely proud and grateful they wore the Reds uniform.

While the run production generated by these two veterans will not be quickly replaced, we chose to endure the short-term ramifications for the sake of building a strong, competitive team for 2009 and many seasons to come.

The vast majority of our 50 draft picks were signed, culminating last week with first-rounder Yonder Alonso and a pair of talented pitchers. Our expanded scouting operations also signed Juan Duran from the Dominican Republic and Yorman Rodriguez from Venezuela, who are arguably the best amateur free agent position players from their respective countries.

As we near September, we will continue to provide valuable playing time to our young players and new acquisitions who we feel can become significant contributors at the Major League level. We ask your continued trust and patience as we build the roster that will get us back on top. We appreciate your support and look forward to seeing you at the ballpark.

"""

Apparently, they didn't know that the REAL Reds fans prefer small ball, GIDP's, and Caught Stealings to OPS-powered runs!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

elfmanvt07
08-19-2008, 04:44 PM
Well, I for one am thankful for at least the notion of a letter like this. I'm glad they're finally admitting that rebooting the system is probably the best course of action. Good thing is, if this is actually how it unfolds, we could be looking at a good team in 2010.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-19-2008, 04:48 PM
nope.. we cant.. we will never find another guy with 40 home run power.. thats all we ever need to win.. not a combination like many have stated.....

BLEEDS
08-19-2008, 04:59 PM
nope.. we cant.. we will never find another guy with 40 home run power.. thats all we ever need to win.. not a combination like many have stated.....

Well I think we did lead the league in CS's and GIDP's last week with all of our "SPEED"...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsfanmia
08-19-2008, 05:05 PM
Why didn't the letter say something to the effect of I am an impatient boob who doesn't have a clue of how to field a winning baseball club and will not leave my general manager on the job long enough to execute a plan, by the way here is some dollar hot dogs and 5 dollar tickets to satisfy you.

gedred69
08-19-2008, 05:22 PM
As someone who year in and year out invests a lot of my disposable income on the "season", This year like so many in recent memory has been a bitter pill. It starts with Spring Training that I have faithfully attended for 9 of the last 10 years. This largely due to the fact I have a brother in Ft. Myers to stay with, while watching the Reds against Bosox, and Twins. We always catch some games in Sarasota as well, which is only 90 minutes away. Then I buy a partial season ticket pkg. That's all I can afford, plus it is an hour plus to home from the Ball Park. I have not used my last 5 tickets, because this team has not been worth watching, and the time and money it takes stretches me financially. I'm sick of paying out so much to see a team that can't even be at least be decent. I'm tired of rotating GM's, where none gets a chance to let his plan take hold and work. Next Spring will likely be my last in attendance, as they move to the Desert, (Got no relatives there to stay with), and if I decide to buy into a season pkg. again, will be my last at that, if they can't at least finish in the top 3. Too many years of empty hopes, too many "Rah-Rahs" from the FO like this letter, too much money from my pocket---$6+ beer?!!??
Not to mention, in my dealings with the Season Ticket Holder's so-called personal account managers, that consistently leave me feeling like, "They got my money already, so now I'm an un-wanted, Red-headed step-child. Castellini can save the ink as far as I'm concerned, I ain't buyin'.

BLEEDS
08-19-2008, 05:34 PM
As someone who year in and year out invests a lot of my disposable income on the "season", This year like so many in recent memory has been a bitter pill. It starts with Spring Training that I have faithfully attended for 9 of the last 10 years. This largely due to the fact I have a brother in Ft. Myers to stay with, while watching the Reds against Bosox, and Twins. We always catch some games in Sarasota as well, which is only 90 minutes away. Then I buy a partial season ticket pkg. That's all I can afford, plus it is an hour plus to home from the Ball Park. I have not used my last 5 tickets, because this team has not been worth watching, and the time and money it takes stretches me financially. I'm sick of paying out so much to see a team that can't even be at least be decent. I'm tired of rotating GM's, where none gets a chance to let his plan take hold and work. Next Spring will likely be my last in attendance, as they move to the Desert, (Got no relatives there to stay with), and if I decide to buy into a season pkg. again, will be my last at that, if they can't at least finish in the top 3. Too many years of empty hopes, too many "Rah-Rahs" from the FO like this letter, too much money from my pocket---$6+ beer?!!??
Not to mention, in my dealings with the Season Ticket Holder's so-called personal account managers, that consistently leave me feeling like, "They got my money already, so now I'm an un-wanted, Red-headed step-child. Castellini can save the ink as far as I'm concerned, I ain't buyin'.

So you didn't like the letter I take it?

Why don't you send this post to him in a e-mail response.
Be interesting to see if they responded to it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
08-19-2008, 05:40 PM
Obviously this letter in meant to cushion the fan's pain felt this year, and especially these last two months, and to explain to the faithful that the trading of the teams two most popular players were part of a bigger plan. While it is partially PR related, it is a nice gesture, that I don't think Linder ever would have made.

Looking at who was moved and who was added, it seems to me that the Jocketty plan is to base the team on pitching and defense. If that plan is stuck to, I like it. But to be clear, a team based on pitching and defense is not a team that is based on small ball.

The Cardinals, White Sox, Twins, Indians, Braves, Angels, and even to some extent the Yankees and Red Sox (they just had the money to get other bigger pieces) have all been based on pitching and defense. While these teams can play small ball when they need to, they are not only small ball teams. I am hoping that the Reds follow this plan.

gedred69
08-19-2008, 05:40 PM
As someone who year in and year out invests a lot of my disposable income on the "season", This year like so many in recent memory has been a bitter pill. It starts with Spring Training that I have faithfully attended for 9 of the last 10 years. This largely due to the fact I have a brother in Ft. Myers to stay with, while watching the Reds against Bosox, and Twins. We always catch some games in Sarasota as well, which is only 90 minutes away. Then I buy a partial season ticket pkg. That's all I can afford, plus it is an hour plus to home from the Ball Park. I have not used my last 5 tickets, because this team has not been worth watching, and the time and money it takes stretches me financially. I'm sick of paying out so much to see a team that can't even be at least be decent. I'm tired of rotating GM's, where none gets a chance to let his plan take hold and work. Next Spring will likely be my last in attendance, as they move to the Desert, (Got no relatives there to stay with), and if I decide to buy into a season pkg. again, will be my last at that, if they can't at least finish in the top 3. Too many years of empty hopes, too many "Rah-Rahs" from the FO like this letter, too much money from my pocket---$6+ beer?!!??
Not to mention, in my dealings with the Season Ticket Holder's so-called personal account managers, that consistently leave me feeling like, "They got my money already, so now I'm an un-wanted, Red-headed step-child. Castellini can save the ink as far as I'm concerned, I ain't buyin'.

FlyerFanatic
08-19-2008, 06:01 PM
heres the problem..we see this letter and what happens? we run corey patterson out there to start. i dont care if thats bakers decision or not. somebody whether its walt or bob needs to tell him no more corey patterson. i've said it before, they arent committed to changing anything until CP is no longer playing/off the team. i am in absolute shock hes been around this long.

we DFA ross, who i didnt really care for, but i'd rather take the 3 catchers and boot patterson.

I(heart)Freel
08-19-2008, 06:30 PM
Thanks for posting the letter, Bleeds.

It's a shame you had to frame it with your usual (and by that I mean mercilessly repeated) jibes at those who rooted for the deadline deals.

But hey... like Billy Joel says... don't go changing to try to please us. I guess I'm just wondering when you're going to move on... ya know... for your own mental health?

DUNN'KD
08-19-2008, 06:35 PM
Again I ask... What does small ball have to do with OBP or OPS? They are not mutually exclusive. They are both important qualities to have on a baseball team.

BLEEDS
08-19-2008, 07:41 PM
Thanks for posting the letter, Bleeds.

It's a shame you had to frame it with your usual (and by that I mean mercilessly repeated) jibes at those who rooted for the deadline deals.

But hey... like Billy Joel says... don't go changing to try to please us. I guess I'm just wondering when you're going to move on... ya know... for your own mental health?

No, I just find it peculiar that our own Front Office can realize that we can't replace Dunn and Griffey, but some of our fans think "the winning will begin" once we replace them with speed and defense.

We have to replace OFFENSE as well as Defense. It ain't happening overnight - and we basically CLOSED the window of opportunity that looked so promising going into this season.

By the time this team is ready to compete - if all the stars align and we get lucky - in 2010, we'll have Harang/Arroyo/Cordero in their last years and beginning the arb years for all the young kids who are cheap now.

Unless we start unloading Harang/Arroyo/Cordero/Phillips now, along with massively increased Payroll for Top-Tier Free Agents, AND some killer trades that work out in our favor - we have no chance to put together any kind of sustainable run in any near future.

It's kind of sad. I'm used to being let down year in and year out because this team has not had talent nor a window for the last decade, but they DID have one, and they let it go.

I'll move on - wake me in 2011 and tell me what the next letter says.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

DannyB
08-19-2008, 07:45 PM
Dear Walt and Bob

You aren't done yet.

CesarGeronimo
08-19-2008, 08:55 PM
I am reasonably happy with the direction of the team - and with the message in this letter - other than the mistake, IMO, of hiring Dusty Baker. It's a significant enough mistake, I think, that Jocketty needs to fix it sooner rather than later. This is hardly an original thought I realize, but I think fans who feel this way need to make their voices heard. Management appears to be concerned about what we're thinking.

DannyB
08-20-2008, 05:33 AM
I liked Hal's response-
http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Dear Fans: Yada, yada, yada

It’s a long letter that is short on substance. What’s the plan? Are they trying to win in 2009 or 2012 or the nth of never?

They talked about signing No. 1 draft pick Yonder Alonso. You won’t see him for three years, two at the closest. They talked about signing two 16-year-old kids. What are they, five years away?

They talked about signing 35 of 50 draft choices. If three make it to the majors they’ll be fortunate - and that’s years down the road, too.

They want your “trust and patience.” Trust? Patience? Reds fans have been trusting and patient ever since they were promised a winner when voters approved a new stadium. How’s that worked out? Eight years of losing.

They talked about signing selected players to extended contracts — Aaron Harang, Bronson Arroyo, Brandon Phillips. Hows that worked out?

They talk about trading Ken Griffey Jr. and Adam Dunn, a move that they say sacrifices the short-term for the long-term. But they also talk about the trade benefitting the team in 2009. How is that going to work. The only player they obtained in those two trades who is a major-league (for 2009) would be pitcher Micah Owings, and he hasn’t been very good lately.

They don’t talk about possibly signing big-ticket free agents or acquiring high-profile players in trades for 2009. The truth is that the Reds needed to draw 2.4 million this year to break even.

That isn’t going to happen. So where will they make up the shortfall? Most likely a reduced payroll.

Castellini and Jocketty are honorable men, hard-working guys with their hopes and dreams in the right place. But this letter that mostly talks around the issues probably won’t appease too many fans. In fact, alienation comes to mind.

dmoe
08-20-2008, 08:46 AM
i totally agree with hal's response. on face value it was a nice gesture, i guess. after rereading it and noticing the way they said things (and the things they didn't), i become a little offended.

hey guys, thanks for the warning us that the rest of the season will be tough to watch...have you been watching any of it thus far?

i cannot believe they devoted (wasted) space in that letter to mention that the players hadn't lived up to expectations, while accepting no blame themselves. that makes me a little more nauseous.

i'm nervous about what's going to happen next. i do believe this team is close. we'll see what they do...bring them closer or push them a little farther away...

Ghosts of 1990
08-20-2008, 09:45 AM
More spin.

Jocketty and Castellini have no clue how they're going to get it turned around. They're just gambling.

Jack Burton
08-20-2008, 10:16 AM
You wanna show fans you're serious about winning next year? Fire dusty, it's the root of the problem.

bounty37h
08-20-2008, 10:21 AM
So you didn't like the letter I take it?

Why don't you send this post to him in a e-mail response.
Be interesting to see if they responded to it.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I doubt it, I emailed something similar to him a few weeks ago after I traveled to DC for that pathetic showing, wasted my precious little amount of vacation time, a good amount of money (esp on my salary working with troubled youth) for tix, travel, hotel, etc. I got no response from anyone-I sent it to all the major players in the Reds org, they dont give a crap.

bounty37h
08-20-2008, 10:29 AM
Dear Bob and Walt-
Thanks for the letter, it sounded a lot like the letter you wrote when you took over a couple seasons ago Boob. Stop F'in wasting valuable time writing pointless letters and figure out how to get this team to produce. Then I will start to care again. After years and years of pathetic baseball and unfulfilled promises to fans by ownership/management, we fans deserve better. Play good ball and start to win, and the fans will be there once again filling up the seats, bringing you guys more money, allowing you to continue to improve the team and make some dough yourselves. There, thats the plan, it will work, now put the pen down and make it happen.
Sincerly,
tired fan

BLEEDS
08-20-2008, 11:20 AM
They donít talk about possibly signing big-ticket free agents or acquiring high-profile players in trades for 2009. The truth is that the Reds needed to draw 2.4 million this year to break even.

That isnít going to happen. So where will they make up the shortfall? Most likely a reduced payroll.

I want to know where that comes from. Did they sell 2.4 million tickets last year? They made $40M or so.

No mention of concessions, REVENUE SHARING, TV deals, etc...

NOBODY in baseball loses money, that's freaking RIDICULOUS.
Mark Cuban knows this. Heck, before he was looking at buying the Cubs, he was looking to buy - THE PITTSBURGH PIRATES!!! Why? Because you can put a CRAP product on the field, not compete, NOT break even in attendance - and STILL MAKE LARGE BANK$ from all the TV and Revenue Sharing deals.

IF they reduce the payroll $.01 next year, I'll quit watching/following until minimum Dusty Baker is fired, that will be the last straw for this fan for awhile. If I have to watch a bunch of young kids play - I at least want someone who knows how to maximize the lineup for them.

It better be raised by $10M, at a minimum.

Bob C doesn't need to make any money, IFF he wants to win, he can slice $20M+ out of his interest on his money in the bank to cover it.
As has been said, this is nothing but a BIG TOY for these successful business types. Heck, if the Reds lost $30M, it would be nothing but a write-off for him on his taxes.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

PTI (pti)
08-20-2008, 12:57 PM
Bad accountant joke:

business owner = "What was my profit this year?"
accountant = "What do you want it to be?"


Seriously - I don't give a rip what their projected "profit" is. They're making money, whether the bottom line shows it or not.

IIRC, the Yankees show very little income from television revenue. The Yes Network, however, is probably valued at close to $2 billion, and makes an absolute fortune. Not too shaby for a company that's only 6 years old and does little more than show Yankee games. Oh, and of course is basically owned by George Steinbrenner.





Anyways...


Nice letter, fellas. But I'd just as soon rather you NOT KEEP SCREWING UP in the future, as opposed to publicly showing regret when you do.

thanks.

DannyB
08-20-2008, 05:29 PM
The Dunn trade was no more than a salary dump.

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 06:44 PM
The Dunn trade was no more than a salary dump.

They were not going to sign him next season and they paid 2 million of his remaining salary, it was not a salary dump.

Revering4Blue
08-20-2008, 07:08 PM
The Cincinnati Red Stockings did an odd thing Tuesday ... I mean, beyond getting shut out by the Cubs, which actually wasn't that odd at all.

Want to do something nice for your fans, Bob? Don't talk -- reach into your pocket.
They apologized for stinking their way through 2008. They even put it in a website letter for their faithful fans in hopes they might remain faithful despite all the evidence that suggests their faith has been sadly misplaced.

Owner Bob Castellini and new general manager Walt Jocketty did, however, stop short of the one thing that would make an apology seem more heartfelt and sincere. You know, a refund.

The letter pointed to bad weather and injuries, which of course couldn't be anyone's fault. It congratulated Castellini and Jocketty for having the basic human kindness required to trade Ken Griffey and Adam Dunn to contending teams -- the White Sox for Griffey, the Diamondbacks for Dunn. It also congratulated the fellas for signing most of their draft picks, which suggests they actually forgave themselves before apologizing, which is pretty convenient when you think about it.

But while the gesture is appreciated in a climate in which most teams devote their energy to telling people how swell they are, how the increase in ticket prices is good for the fan and how the new $85 hoodies are now on sale -- in other words, to screw off and keep buying things, damn it -- it still lacks the sincerity that only returning money can really generate.

We all recognize the Reds are bad; they've been relatively bad for years now, but this is worse than even they thought. They've entered that weird Pirates-Nationals-Giants vortex in which bad ball just compounds and regenerates itself, and the fan base is clearly thinking that this isn't going to get better anytime soon. Otherwise, there would never have been the letter in the first place.

But sorries are cheap; if Castellini wants to show contrition, he lowers ticket prices next year ... or he sends a rebate to season-ticket holders ... or he offers free game-day parking. Something to say, "This is not your fault. We screwed up, and we're going to pay up until we get back up."

A letter, by comparison, seems cheap and grandstandish -- sort of, "Look at us tell you how we feel about ourselves, which is actually pretty damned good considering how bad we've played."

In fact, if you have to write to the customers, the letter should have been a bit less formal and bit more beneficent, like this.

Dear Fans:

Bob and Walt here. It's Aug. 19, we're in last, we've traded our two most famous players, and you're pretty down on us right now. Well, you should be. We haven't been here that long, but we've been here long enough to know this stinks on ice. And because we're in charge, it's our fault. Period.

I mean, who can watch this day after day and not feel a bit taken? We're doing things on our end to fix it, but this isn't about us. We're supposed to fix it. That's our job, for God's sake, and we shouldn't be taking credit for it before we've actually done it.

What we should be doing is this: If you're a season-ticket holder and you want to renew for 2009, know that we'll take 10 percent off the top right now for any package you want to buy. If you're not a season-ticket holder and only get to the park once or twice a year, send us a note and we'll send you a parking voucher, and maybe a hat or some piece of bric a brac from our overstuffed warehouse.

True, this doesn't fix the ball team, but times are tough out there, and getting out to a game isn't as easy as it used to be. And while we can't guarantee you will see a winning team right away because you can't turn a boat around that quickly, we can see to it that the people who feel the pain for this are us, not you.



We'd say we're sorry, but any blowhard can do that. This is what we can do now, until the team is improved the way we told you we would improve it. And if that doesn't work, we'll do more. And if that doesn't work, we'll probably be gone and someone else will try to do it.

So stick with us if you can, and if you can't, we understand. Just keep us in mind when we do get better.

Your pals (we hope), Bob and Walt.

Now isn't that better than "Trust us, and here's an '09 ticket brochure"? Not by much, no. But when you get to the point where you need to apologize to the customer, you've reached the point where you have to make the apology worth their while.

By that logic, of course, the Pirates should be playing for free, but that's a time-waster for another day.

Ray Ratto is a columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle.


http://www.sportsline.com/columns/story/10940433/1

seligstinks
08-23-2008, 03:44 PM
The Reds ownership should have been willing to sacrifice a lot of their BIG profits next year, and re-sign Dunn. Unfortunately, it's always the fans that are asked to sacrifice, not the rich and greedy team owners. I believe that Dunn's run production has a good chance to decline in the next 3-4 years (and may have already begun its decline), but who else did the Reds have? Even if Dunn had been unwilling to re-sign, the Reds would still have gotten two draft picks, who might be better than the players they did get. It looks like Castellini is starting to turn into another Lindner. BIG mistake on the Reds' part. It's a shame the last few Reds' owners were not willing to sacrifice some profit to rebuild the team (except for Marge Schott in '91-'95, and during that time she continued to underfund the farm system).

DannyB
08-23-2008, 05:47 PM
They were not going to sign him next season and they paid 2 million of his remaining salary, it was not a salary dump.

And why werent they going to sign him?
Not enough offense? nooo....
Not a fan favorite? nooooo....
Maybe they just didnt want to pay him?

CesarGeronimo
08-23-2008, 09:38 PM
Here's an idea that will take Bob and Walt's plan to the next level. Now that they've brought aboard Baker and Bavasi, who were so unwisely cast off by others, why not complete this dream team by hiring the most underappreciated mind of all? Bush. He's a former baseball exec who'll be looking for work in January. Baker, Bavasi and Bush. The Killer Bees!

kpresidente
08-24-2008, 01:30 AM
The way I see it, we need one middle-of-the order hitter and one top of the rotation starter to be in the thick of things going forward. I mean All-stars, here, or nearly so.

Losing Dunn and Griffey frees up something like $15-25 million in salary, depending on who you talk to.

Is that enough to get the two players I mentioned? Not quite, I think, but it's close. We should be able to get at least one of those pieces this offseason. So it's a step forward. By 2010, maybe Alonso can be the second piece, or maybe losing an Arroyo or Cordero could free up the funds needed, as both could probably be replaced from within the organization.

This team won't be as bad next year as they were this year. No chance. Getting better years from Harang, Arroyo, Cueto and Bruce seems like a safe assumption. That's huge. Dropping Patterson is a significant addition by subtraction, too. Those five things alone will more than offset Dunn's and Griffey's production, as Griffey wasn't all that productive this year anyway.

And that's before we spend the money losing those guys will free up. So I think we're in decent shape, we just can't blow the money on signings that don't pan out. Whoever we acquire has to live up to their salary.

kpresidente
08-24-2008, 02:03 AM
The people who are whining about Dunn have little ground to stand on. Regardless of what Dunn added to the team, at the $120 million he's looking for, he doesn't represent especially good value. Even if you think he's worth that, it's still just average value, i.e., you're getting what you pay for. Nobody would argue he's a deal at that salary.

And it's all about value. Trading Dunn for $16-18 million in disposable salary is at worst a fair trade. Whatever player(s) you get to replace him with that salary can be assumed to provide similar production, so you haven't really lost anything. It's a break-even swap.

The only real question you're left with is this: Should we have traded him or taken the draft picks? Who knows? Regardless, it's not really the kind of decision that's going to make or break the team.

gedred69
08-24-2008, 03:13 PM
First, several days after I posted my rant about my letter recieved as a season ticket holder, the irritation has not subsided. Next, whatever it would take to re-sign Dunn would have been money un-wisely spent----unless the price tag is severely reduced. He is as others outside the Reds have described, "streaky, swings from his heels, a flawed power hitter, a liability in the field", yada, yada. Power ball in a Ballpark designed for it hasn't worked. Time for a different approach. There are plenty of guys either on this team, or close to it that will hit 20+ - 35+ HRs, with much better BAs, and drive in more runs than Dunn.

BLEEDS
08-25-2008, 09:31 AM
Trading Dunn for $16-18 million in disposable salary is at worst a fair trade. Whatever player(s) you get to replace him with that salary can be assumed to provide similar production, so you haven't really lost anything. It's a break-even swap.



There are plenty of guys either on this team, or close to it that will hit 20+ - 35+ HRs, with much better BAs, and drive in more runs than Dunn.

I love this pie-in-the-sky dream reality you guys live in.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsbuckeye
08-25-2008, 11:44 AM
The people who are whining about Dunn have little ground to stand on. Regardless of what Dunn added to the team, at the $120 million he's looking for, he doesn't represent especially good value. Even if you think he's worth that, it's still just average value, i.e., you're getting what you pay for. Nobody would argue he's a deal at that salary.

I would argue that the $120 million is a red herring.


And it's all about value. Trading Dunn for $16-18 million in disposable salary is at worst a fair trade. Whatever player(s) you get to replace him with that salary can be assumed to provide similar production, so you haven't really lost anything. It's a break-even swap.

What guys are you going to use to replace Dunn that will offer similar production (don't forget age factor)?

kpresidente
08-25-2008, 03:57 PM
I would argue that the $120 million is a red herring.
.....
What guys are you going to use to replace Dunn that will offer similar production (don't forget age factor)?
Maybe a red herring, but it's clear that any notion of a hometown discount wasn't going to happen. The point being that Dunn was going after market value.

I'm hoping it's a pitcher. I don't want to offer names because the answer would be wild speculation, and we all know who the big names are. The FA market is thin, but there could also be trades, or combinations of FAs, etc. Age is factored with the length of the contract. A 34 y.o. player is old, but it's not a problem if he gets a 2-year deal.

I'll say this, though, I'd be a happy man if the Reds got in the hunt for one of either Sabbathia, Sheets, Tex, or Burrell.

DannyB
08-25-2008, 04:12 PM
The people who are whining about Dunn have little ground to stand on. Regardless of what Dunn added to the team, at the $120 million he's looking for, he doesn't represent especially good value. Even if you think he's worth that, it's still just average value, i.e., you're getting what you pay for. Nobody would argue he's a deal at that salary.

And it's all about value. Trading Dunn for $16-18 million in disposable salary is at worst a fair trade. Whatever player(s) you get to replace him with that salary can be assumed to provide similar production, so you haven't really lost anything. It's a break-even swap.

The only real question you're left with is this: Should we have traded him or taken the draft picks? Who knows? Regardless, it's not really the kind of decision that's going to make or break the team.

Dunn's replacement's name is Cory.

improbus
08-25-2008, 04:59 PM
Instability has been the Reds downfall over the last 10 years. But, they continually hired guys on the cheap with little to no successful MLB experience in their position (Miley, Narron, O'Brien, Krivsky). Regardless of what you think of Dusty, he has won and has a very successful Major League track record. He has some sway in the game. The same goes for Jocketty, who built a consistent winner in St. Louis. Hopefully their collective clout will bring some stability to the Reds.

redsfanmia
08-25-2008, 05:05 PM
I love this pie-in-the-sky dream reality you guys live in.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You know your right without Dunn on the team they should just fold because he is a once in a generation player who does nothing but win and produce and in not replaceable by anyone.

kpresidente
08-25-2008, 05:37 PM
I love this pie-in-the-sky dream reality you guys live in.

Where am I wrong?

redsfanmia
08-25-2008, 06:31 PM
Where am I wrong?

Your not looking at things through Dunn colored glasses, I dont know anything but I agree with you.

aerontg
08-25-2008, 06:40 PM
Where am I wrong?

You're not wrong at all, kpres. The fact that you don't sign your name at the end of each and every post lends you instant credibility over someone who...........ah well, I'll stop. Anyhow, you've got another supporter here. I love your down-to-earth posts, and I PERSONALLY CAN NOT WAIT until the Dunn supporters see just how much they WEREN'T missing. :D

gedred69
08-25-2008, 09:45 PM
Hey! Don't forget me! I was also included in Bleeds sarcastic answer. Fact is still, Dunn is a flawed power hitter----not my words, but those of Joe Torre, the big mouth from Toronto, et. al. The Reds never won squat with the power game, time to move to a different strategy. I merely cited that there is the potential from other guys on the horizon that can play the game delivering enough HRs, better avg., and play LF better so that Dunn will most likely not be missed.

BLEEDS
08-26-2008, 12:23 AM
You guys are right, Dunn and Griffey and Crappy Pitching never got us anywhere.

Let's go with Crappy Pitching AND less Offense - yeah, that's the ticket.

I'd like you to meet my wife - Morgan Fairchild. Yeah. MORGAN FAIRCHILD.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
08-26-2008, 01:16 AM
You guys are right, Dunn and Griffey and Crappy Pitching never got us anywhere.

Let's go with Crappy Pitching AND less Offense - yeah, that's the ticket.

I'd like you to meet my wife - Morgan Fairchild. Yeah. MORGAN FAIRCHILD.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

The Reds did not have crappy pitching this year. They had a crappy, little league like defense that made an average pitching staff appear below average. It appears that Jocketty understands baseball 101 and will fix that problem for next year.

Also, a bulk of runs given up this year by Reds pitching were given up by Fogg, Belisle, Bailey, Majewski, and Coffey, guys who probably won't be around next year (except possibly Bailey and only then if he gets his act together.) Throw in an off year by Harang, and you have most of the Reds pitching problem this year.

Going into next year the Reds will have Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, and Harang as their top four starters. I am sorry, but if that is crappy, I'll take crappy pitching every year.

BLEEDS
08-26-2008, 09:59 AM
The Reds did not have crappy pitching this year. They had a crappy, little league like defense that made an average pitching staff appear below average. It appears that Jocketty understands baseball 101 and will fix that problem for next year.

Also, a bulk of runs given up this year by Reds pitching were given up by Fogg, Belisle, Bailey, Majewski, and Coffey, guys who probably won't be around next year (except possibly Bailey and only then if he gets his act together.) Throw in an off year by Harang, and you have most of the Reds pitching problem this year.

Going into next year the Reds will have Volquez, Cueto, Arroyo, and Harang as their top four starters. I am sorry, but if that is crappy, I'll take crappy pitching every year.

Seems like I heard this same story last year - all we need is a Replacement Level #5 Starter, and we'll be ready for the Post-Season.
Oh, and career years out of our rookies and no let-downs from Harang and Arroyo.
Volquez is an All-Star, Cueto does pretty well for a rookie, yet we're EONS away from the playoffs. What gives?!?!

Our offense was pretty putrid too, now we've given up about 5 wins (VOR-wise) with the Departure of Dunn/Griffey and we're expected to take the same 4 starters and Black Hole #5 Starting position and get better?
I don't see the logic, nor reality, in that.

I don't doubt it can be done, over time, but I'm tired of hearing it's Dunn and Griffey's fault for the last 8 years of futility, and suddenly by jettising them we will start winning. If anything, it just emphasizes the lack of any MLB-capable lineup we can put out there and lifts the skirt on our Pitching problems.

We've got a ton of holes on this team, and this idea that an addition by subtraction of Dunn/Griffey helps is beyond absurd.

PEACE

-BLEEDS