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View Full Version : Reds vs Cubs 8/19/08



Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 08:03 PM
REDS
Chris Dickerson LF
Jeff Keppinger SS
Jay Bruce RF
Brandon Phillips 2B
Joey Votto 1B
Edwin Encarnacion 3B
Corey Patterson CF
Paul Bako C
Johnny Cueto P

Cubs
Alfonso Soriano LF
Ryan Theriot SS
Derrek Lee 1B
Aramis Ramirez 3B
Jim Edmonds CF
Geovany Soto C
Kosuke Fukudome RF
Mark DeRosa 2B
Rich Harden P

Tony Cloninger
08-19-2008, 08:57 PM
Do the reds ever play anymore day games in wrigley?.....always night games now.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 08:59 PM
Do the reds ever play anymore day games in wrigley?.....always night games now.

yeah, this thursday is day game

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:06 PM
Well, this promises to be a total ass-kicking.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:07 PM
Cubs broadcast said the Reds catcher tonight was 'John Baker'???

Went and looked, and of course it is Paul Bako. Close...lol

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:09 PM
Cubs broadcast said the Reds catcher tonight was 'John Baker'???

Went and looked, and of course it is Paul Bako. Close...lol

I think that is the German pronuciation of Paul Bako.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:09 PM
10 pitch first inning for Harden....

Dickerson pops to left
Kepp 1st pitch 5-3
Bruce Ks swinging

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:10 PM
Cueto has struggled mightily in the first inning in each of his last four starts. Hopefully he can fare a little better tonight.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:10 PM
I dropped a pencil on the floor. By the time I bent over and picked it up the inning was over.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:12 PM
That last pitch was pretty wicked.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:16 PM
1-2-3 ist for Cueto. 15 pitches....nice so far.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:18 PM
Cubs have drawn the most walks in the NL.

Don't they know how icky those walks are?

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:19 PM
I don't think Phillips swung at a strike the whole atbat.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:22 PM
Sure glad Dusty waited until facing Hardin to easy Joey V back into the lineup.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 09:23 PM
The ump waited a little bit before calling strike 3 on Encarnacion.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Cueto needs to stay in the windup. He loses control in the stretch. Just let them have 2B...

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Terrible strike 3 call on EdE. Ump must be a Cubs fan because Cueto's zone is smaller. That 1-0 pitch on Edmonds just now was a strike.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 09:27 PM
Cueto hits Ramirez then walks Edmonds to start the 2nd inning.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:28 PM
Hitting Ramirez on 1-2 was killer. Looks like the second inning will be the bad inning for Cueto tonight.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Soto GIDP. Two outs.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 09:30 PM
Cueto did a nice job of getting out of that inning...

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:30 PM
I really like seeing Votto giving out the infield encouragement after a nice DP.

Not sure if he was pepping up EE or Cueto, but either way I like seeing him take charge like that.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:31 PM
No score after 2.

Harden 24 pitches, 17 strikes.
Cueto 30 pitches, 16 strikes.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 09:35 PM
very impressive at bats there by the redlegs...top shelf 7 - 8 - 9 hitters there

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:36 PM
9 pitch 3rd inning for Harden.

Patterson pops out
Bako Ks
Cueto pops out.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 09:38 PM
Harden has struck out 5 batters and still has a pretty low pitch count after 3 innings.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:39 PM
Wow. Where was that 2-2 pitch to DeRosa? That was way better than that strike three call on EdE.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:40 PM
Unreal. Bruce misplays a flyball into a double. Why do the Reds always play their worst defense behind Cueto? I can remember Dunn misplaying a flyball into three runs the last time Cueto pitched in Chicago. That should be an error.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 09:40 PM
DeRosa is given a double to start the Cubs half of the inning.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:42 PM
No way that should be a hit.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 09:43 PM
wow, derosa with a very redslike base-running mistake :beerme:

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 09:44 PM
and now soriano gets picked off...too funny...this is our game today folks:p:

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 09:45 PM
After 3 innings, Reds 0, Cubs 0

Harden 33 pitches, 22 strikes
Cueto 45 pitches, 27 strikes

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 09:49 PM
Quick question:

In Sunday's game, Jerry Hairston Jr. was lifted for PH Jolbert Cabrera. I thought it was strange that Hairston would be hit for. And then he isn't in the lineup tonight. Did he tweak the hammy again?

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 09:49 PM
I'm just glad it wasn't Junior making that miscue in right field.
There would have been 5-10 posts calling him horrible and the worst outfielder in the league.
With Bruce it's OK...

heh. :)

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:52 PM
It just surprised me because Bruce is an excellent defensive outfielder but he screwed that play up.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 09:52 PM
Great jump and route by Fukudome to take a double from Bruce.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 09:53 PM
I'm just glad it wasn't Junior making that miscue in right field.
There would have been 5-10 posts calling him horrible and the worst outfielder in the league.
With Bruce it's OK...

heh. :)

I've noticed that. I've also noticed that at times it appears that Bruce's defense isn't quite what was advertised.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 09:55 PM
After 3 1/2 -- 0-0.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:55 PM
I've noticed that. I've also noticed that at times it appears that Bruce's defense isn't quite what was advertised.

Really? I've been very impressed with Bruce's defense with the exception of that play. Plus he's already got five assists in just half a season.

Razor Shines
08-19-2008, 09:56 PM
Does Harden ever go by Dick? Because he is not a very nice pitcher.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 09:56 PM
Phillips flies out deep to RF. Unproductive inning, but much better AB from the Reds this time through the lineup. Made Harden throw 22 pitches.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 09:57 PM
I imagine Richard purposely got the moniker "Rich" just because of that reason. Dick Harden would have been just too funny.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Lead off double by Theriot. Hey Bako, how about calling something other than fastballs? Major leaguers can hit fastballs. That 2-2 pitch would have a perfect time for a slider or changeup.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 09:59 PM
Theriot works the count waiting for a pitch he can do something with. Promptly hits a double and now there is RISP with no outs.

Wild stuff man.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:00 PM
Really? I've been very impressed with Bruce's defense with the exception of that play. Plus he's already got five assists in just half a season.

I'm not saying that he is a bad defensive outfielder, and I think he will probably be pretty good. But at times it appears that he loses focus out there. Maybe it's just me, and I'm being unreasonable.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:02 PM
that 0 - 1 pitch looked pretty good to me

Razor Shines
08-19-2008, 10:03 PM
Theriot works the count waiting for a pitch he can do something with. Promptly hits a double and now there is RISP with no outs.

Wild stuff man.

What is this "working the count" you speak of? Everyone knows you swing at any pitch that doesn't bounce, unless of course you think you can hit the bouncing pitch.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:03 PM
that 0 - 1 pitch looked pretty good to me

Cueto isn't getting the same pitches Harden is.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:03 PM
That pitch by Cueto had some hair on it!

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:04 PM
What is this "working the count" you speak of? Everyone knows you swing at any pitch that doesn't bounce, unless of course you think you can hit the bouncing pitch.

That's not cricket.... :D

CTA513
08-19-2008, 10:04 PM
The Cubs fail to get a runner in from 3rd with less than 2 outs.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:04 PM
What is this "working the count" you speak of? Everyone knows you swing at any pitch that doesn't bounce, unless of course you think you can hit the bouncing pitch.

I know, I know.

You gotta be agressive. It's what real men do.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:05 PM
Excellent pitching by Cueto there.

Bob Borkowski
08-19-2008, 10:06 PM
I'm not saying that he is a bad defensive outfielder, and I think he will probably be pretty good. But at times it appears that he loses focus out there. Maybe it's just me, and I'm being unreasonable.

Brantley was talking about the Chicago wind playing tricks with the balls hit into the outfield tonight. Including the play by Bruce.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:07 PM
Brantley was talking about the Chicago wind playing tricks with the balls hit into the outfield tonight. Including the play by Bruce.

OK, I can buy that. :)

Razor Shines
08-19-2008, 10:08 PM
CPatt is trying to land a ball on 2nd base.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:08 PM
I know people get tired with the complaining about CPatt.

But that guy is horrable at the plate.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 10:08 PM
7 pitch inning for Harden

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:09 PM
Am I the only one rooting against C-Pat? I really want to see him finish the year a batting average under .200 and an OPS under .600...

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:09 PM
Brantley was talking about the Chicago wind playing tricks with the balls hit into the outfield tonight. Including the play by Bruce.


Cubs announcers were saying pretty much the same thing.

That wind at Wrigley can be pretty tough.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:10 PM
Am I the only one rooting against C-Pat? I really want to see him finish the year a batting average under .200 and an OPS under .600...

I wouldn't say I am rooting against him.

But I'm most definatley not rooting for him.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:11 PM
Nightly Patterson rant:

Why oh why must we continue to endure the first pitch hacking, sub .200 batting , and .228 OBP of COREY F. PATTERSON?

CTA513
08-19-2008, 10:12 PM
Leadoff triple for the Cubs catcher

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:12 PM
I noticed on the graphic on TV that the Reds are 3-7 in the lasy 10 games. Then I looked at the schedule and realized that I was at all three of those wins (and only one of the losses).

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:13 PM
Why on earth would I root for a player on the Reds to do poorly?

I'm no big fan of CPat, but it's not his fault he can't hit. He doesn't make out the lineup.

You think his effort level is suspect?

I don't. I just don't think he can hit.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:13 PM
I'm not saying that he is a bad defensive outfielder, and I think he will probably be pretty good. But at times it appears that he loses focus out there. Maybe it's just me, and I'm being unreasonable.
I don't think you are being unreasonable at all. The problem is that every footfall and every mistake at the plate that Bruce has only goes to prove that he is only 21 years old and it will happen. Youth is not the only answer to the Reds' problems. Young players make mistakes and make poor judgments at times. He'll be fine, but he will have his "brain fade" moments too.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:13 PM
Am I the only one rooting against C-Pat? I really want to see him finish the year a batting average under .200 and an OPS under .600...

I've been rooting against him and Bako since day one.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:15 PM
I can't really root against them, mostly out of respect for the Reds uniform.

But when they stroll to the plate, I generally expect failure. With a chance to score runs, or a game winning situation and CPatt/Bako at the plate I have no hope of any success. I've become numb to their super volcano of ridonkulous suckitude.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:15 PM
fukudome has such a poor swing...

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:16 PM
Why on earth would I root for a player on the Reds to do poorly?

I'm no big fan of CPat, but it's not his fault he can't hit. He doesn't make out the lineup.

You think his effort level is suspect?

I don't. I just don't think he can hit.I agree, but what's even more confusing is that he has something like a .260 lifetime average, so what happened? I just don't understand.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:16 PM
I can't really root against them, mostly out of respect for the Reds uniform.

But when they stroll to the plate, I generally expect failure.

I root for failure in the hopes that they will ultimately be removed from the team. How they are still here, is just beyond me.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
I missed it on TV, but how did Soto triple? Gameday say Patterson deflected it. Was it a ball he should have caught?

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:17 PM
I see these guys as people, not just images on the TV screen.

They are young men living out their dreams, playing the game we all love on the highest level available on earth.

I don't see them as commodities.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:18 PM
I missed it on TV, but how did Soto triple? Gameday say Patterson deflected it. Was it a ball he should have caught?

Maybe. But if he caught it, it would have been a very nice play.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:18 PM
I missed it on TV, but how did Soto triple? Gameday say Patterson deflected it. Was it a ball he should have caught?It was a tremendous effort on a dive, but he just missed it and Soto showed good speed amazingly enough.

Razor Shines
08-19-2008, 10:18 PM
I missed it on TV, but how did Soto triple? Gameday say Patterson deflected it. Was it a ball he should have caught?
Would have been a tough play, but it did hit the heel of his glove.

CTA513
08-19-2008, 10:20 PM
Cueto was able to get DeRosa to strike out for the 1st out.
Now Harden is up with runners at 1st & 3rd.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:20 PM
DeRosa K's. #5 for Cueto. First and third with one out for Harden. Watch him smack a base hit.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:21 PM
I missed it on TV, but how did Soto triple? Gameday say Patterson deflected it. Was it a ball he should have caught?

Not really. He ran a long, long way and just missed catching it. It hit the heal of his glove but it was on a dive so not really his fault for missing it. Very nice effort.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Edwin with another boneheaded play. Rookie mistake from a guy who should be over that. He reminds me of Felipe Lopez sometimes--in a fog a lot of the time.

guttle11
08-19-2008, 10:22 PM
Bako's mistake as much as Edwin's, IMO. Edwin thought squeeze and glanced at the catcher, who's pointing to first all the way.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Reds announcers off the deep end, Keppinger was covering 2B, there was no one moving toward 3rd to cause the runner to retreat.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Edwin with another boneheaded play. Rookie mistake from a guy who should be over that. He reminds me of Felipe Lopez sometimes--in a fog a lot of the time.

bako was directing him to throw to first, cueto directing him to go to third...votto then had a bad throw home...

Razor Shines
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Edwin with another boneheaded play. Rookie mistake from a guy who should be over that. He reminds me of Felipe Lopez sometimes--in a fog a lot of the time.

You're supposed to trust your catcher in that situation. Bako is an idiot for pointing to first.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:23 PM
Perfect sac bunt to 3B. Eddie comes in, Soto trails him and takes off for home on the throw to first. A perfect throw by Votto would've had him, but it's low and the the 1B side and bounces off Bako's leg, allowing the run to score and Fukudome to go to 3B.

I wonder why Keppinger isn't running to 3B on that play so that EE and can turn around and get Soto in a pickle. Actually, with the lefty up, Keppinger was at 2B. Not much choice but to play it like they did.

lollipopcurve
08-19-2008, 10:24 PM
That's Bako's call -- he sees the whole field. Not Edwin's mistake -- if he stops, turns and looks for the runner, he likely does not even get an out at first. Bako's call.

GAC
08-19-2008, 10:24 PM
I'm sorry - but you have to know the situation on the field and if the ball is hit to you where you're going to go with the ball. That should already be in the back of the mind of any fielder. Even if your idiotic catcher is pointing to 1B. You can still look back at the base runner.

That's EE's problem. His mind is three steps behind his body.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:25 PM
What a defense. The defense is already awful but it seems they play their absolute worst on days when Cueto pitches. This should be a scoreless game right now.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:25 PM
Blame to go all around.

EE should have looked the runner back
Bako shouldn't have pointed to 1B
Kepp should have covered 3B so a pickle could happen
Votto should have made a better throw home

But it's all EE's fault?

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:26 PM
Edwin with another boneheaded play. Rookie mistake from a guy who should be over that. He reminds me of Felipe Lopez sometimes--in a fog a lot of the time.

I disagree. Bako pointed toward first. Nothing to be done, there was nobody on third, since Kepp went to 2nd. Votto throw not too good, but he had it beat anyway. Nice safety squeeze bunt by the Cubs.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:26 PM
How is that run earned?

guttle11
08-19-2008, 10:27 PM
I'm sorry - but you have to know the situation on the field and if the ball is hit to you where you're going to go with the ball. That should already be in the back of the mind of any fielder.

That's EE's problem. His mind is three steps behind his body.

He's thinking squeeze and looked home like he should have been. Bako pointed to first, and that's where the ball went. He made a good play.

Bako either messed up by pointing to first, or someone else made a mistake by not sliding over to cover third. Outside of just not liking Edwin, I can't see how someone blames him for that. He's thinking out first, trusting his catcher to tell him where to go.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:28 PM
How is that run earned?

Pretty sure you can't assume an out on a tag play. The error was for allowing Fukudome to advance to 3B.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 10:28 PM
Blame to go all around.

EE should have looked the runner back

that would have done nothing, there was no moving to cover third thus no reason for Soto to retreat.

If Edwin turns then the only chance for an out is a footrace to the bag, which EE would have lost.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:30 PM
that would have done nothing, there was no moving to cover third thus no reason for Soto to retreat.

If Edwin turns then the only chance for an out is a footrace to the bag, which EE would have lost.

And with the lineup turning over, I'm not sure you want the bags loaded with just 1 out. The only thing wrong about that play was the poor throw by Votto and the poor catch by Bako.

Ltlabner
08-19-2008, 10:30 PM
that would have done nothing, there was no moving to cover third thus no reason for Soto to retreat.

If Edwin turns then the only chance for an out is a footrace to the bag, which EE would have lost.

Mostly I agree with you. But a glance back *might* have slowed Soto down long enough so Votto has more time for a better throw home.

The majority of the blame falls on Bako, a little less on Votto's throw, a little less on Kepp standing at 2B and finally EE (with by far the smallest amount of blame, although he's sure to recieve the heap of the blame).

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:30 PM
EE's choice was to throw it to 1st or look at Soto and have Harden be safe at first. Keppinger should have ran over and cover 3rd, if you want to blame anybody blame him.

remdog
08-19-2008, 10:31 PM
There's no way to blame EE for the results of that play if you saw/understood what happened there.

Rem

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:31 PM
Mostly I agree with you. But a glance back *might* have slowed Soto down long enough so Votto has more time for a better throw home.
Harden would have beat the throw to 1st. EE did "glance" back to 3rd.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:31 PM
He's thinking squeeze and looked home like he should have been. Bako pointed to first, and that's where the ball went. He made a good play.

Bako either messed up by pointing to first, or someone else made a mistake by not sliding over to cover third. Outside of just not liking Edwin, I can't see how someone blames him for that. He's thinking out first, trusting his catcher to tell him where to go.

No, not personal. He should have looked back at third which would have frozen the runner regardless of whether or not he got the out at first. That result would have meant no run. The result we saw was one run--not what you want.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:32 PM
Dusty playing Keppinger and Patterson over Hairston makes no sense at all.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:32 PM
Wow. Reds get robbed. Keppinger didn't come close to swinging. Are these guys Cubs fans?

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:32 PM
No, not personal. He should have looked back at third which would have frozen the runner regardless of whether or not he got the out at first. That result would have meant no run. The result we saw was one run--not what you want.
Bases would have been loaded with 1 out for Soriano. I'll trade one run to avoid the big inning.

WVRedsFan
08-19-2008, 10:32 PM
Dusty playing Keppinger and Patterson over Hairston makes no sense at all.

Unless Hariston is hurt. I wonder...

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:33 PM
Ump clearly missed strike three call on Kepp. Replay showed he didn't go around. Cubs announcer said "Ooohhh.. Well, we will take it."

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:33 PM
No, not personal. He should have looked back at third which would have frozen the runner regardless of whether or not he got the out at first. That result would have meant no run. The result we saw was one run--not what you want.

EE did look back, albeit quickly. Had he looked back any longer Harden would've been safe. It took EE awhile to get to that ball. The throw only beat him by a step.

Another person to blame is Cueto -- if he didn't fall off so much he would have been able to field it and EE could've stayed home.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:33 PM
Unless Hariston is hurt. I wonder...
That could be the only explanation.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:33 PM
No, not personal. He should have looked back at third which would have frozen the runner regardless of whether or not he got the out at first. That result would have meant no run. The result we saw was one run--not what you want.



Yeah, I agree.

remdog
08-19-2008, 10:34 PM
:D:D:D Even the Cubbies announcers are laughing on that supposed swing by Kepp.

They're saying "the Cubs will take it". :D:D:D

Rem

CTA513
08-19-2008, 10:34 PM
K #8 for Harden

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:34 PM
Dusty playing Keppinger and Patterson over Hairston makes no sense at all.

Sense? Dusty Baker?

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Try nepotism. Or idiocy.

oneupper
08-19-2008, 10:35 PM
Wow. Reds get robbed. Keppinger didn't come close to swinging. Are these guys Cubs fans?

Contender at home vs. Non-contender.

Don't expect many calls to go the Reds' way.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:35 PM
Wow. Reds get robbed. Keppinger didn't come close to swinging. Are these guys Cubs fans?

Reds might as well pack up and go home.


Dusty playing Keppinger and Patterson over Hairston makes no sense at all.


Unless Hariston is hurt. I wonder...

I wondered the same thing. Remember that Hairston was lifted for a right-handed pinch-hitter in Jolbert Cabrera on Sunday, which I thought was an unusual move.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:35 PM
Oh and lost in all of that was Chris Dickerson continuing to rake. And he stole 2nd.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
And with the lineup turning over, I'm not sure you want the bags loaded with just 1 out. The only thing wrong about that play was the poor throw by Votto and the poor catch by Bako.the mistake was having Keppinger cover 2nd

remdog
08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
The Cubs announcers are talking about the Reds making (a proper) choice of giving up a run vs. the bases loaded and Sorriano coming up.

I pretty much agree with them. Do the Reds have an offense to overcome a 1 run lead or a 3 run lead?

Rem

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
Theriot grounds out but Lee doubles with one out.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:37 PM
Oh and lost in all of that was Chris Dickerson continuing to rake. And he stole 2nd.

Is it true that Chris Dickerson is related to Eric Dickerson?

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Is it true that Chris Dickerson is related to Eric Dickerson?

Yes. I believe he is the nephew of Eric.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Do the Reds have an offense to overcome a 1 run lead or a 3 run lead?

Rem



I don't think the Reds have the offense to overcome a zero run lead.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:39 PM
the mistake was having Keppinger cover 2nd

Yes but there was one out, and a runner on first. A double play gets the Reds out of the inning.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 10:39 PM
Oh and lost in all of that was Chris Dickerson continuing to rake. And he stole 2nd.it's nice but I don't think anyone believes it is anything more than a hot start/

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:39 PM
Yes. I believe he is the nephew of Eric.

Then it would have been cool if he could have gotten #29.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:39 PM
I am in no way comparing talent, but Dickerson reminds me physically of Grady Sizemore. Tall, lanky, and oozes athleticism.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:40 PM
I am in no way comparing talent, but Dickerson reminds me physically of Grady Sizemore. Tall, lanky, and oozes athleticism.

Reminds me of Curtis Granderson.

Two outs for Edmonds.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:40 PM
Seems like Cueto pulls everything to the left when he goes in to the stretch. Edmonds hit by a pitch.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:40 PM
Is it true that Chris Dickerson is related to Eric Dickerson?
Yeah, he is his cousin or nephew or something like that.

flyer85
08-19-2008, 10:40 PM
Yes but there was one out, and a runner on first. A double play gets the Reds out of the inning.almost impossible to turn a DP on a bunt with a decent runner, which Harden is.

remdog
08-19-2008, 10:40 PM
I don't think the Reds have the offense to overcome a zero run lead.

OK. It was a trick question and some wizened old-timer saw through it. ;)

Rem

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:41 PM
HBP. That brings up Soto who has hit Cueto very well this year.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:42 PM
Cueto has given up lead off or one out extra base hits in each of the last 4 innings, and yet he is through 6 with only one run allowed.

VR
08-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Gimme another inning from Cueto.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:44 PM
That should be it for Cueto as he's now at 100 pitches. It looks like he will suffer another hard luck loss despite pitching very well. This should be a scoreless game right now.

Cueto has faced tough Cubs lineup three times this year and has pitched well everytime.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Cubs 1, Reds 0 after 6

Cueto 100 pitches, 58 strikes
Harden 79 pitches, 51 strikes.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:44 PM
Gimme another inning from Cueto.

No way. He's at 100 pitches in a meaningless game for the Reds.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:45 PM
Cueto: 6 IP, 4 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 5 K
100 pitchers
58 strikes

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:46 PM
Phillips grounds a low, outside pitch to 2B. Go figure. 2 outs.

VR
08-19-2008, 10:47 PM
No way. He's at 100 pitches in a meaningless game for the Reds.

I'd like him to get used to pitching deeper into games.

jesusfan
08-19-2008, 10:47 PM
well at least Stubbs is hitting the ball well tonight in Louisville...3-5 3 RBI

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 10:48 PM
Solid outing from Cueto -- finishing strong will be key for him if this club has any designs on not being awful next season.

jesusfan
08-19-2008, 10:48 PM
I wish Votto would go deep and shut those Cubbies up!

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:48 PM
The Tampa Bay Rays won again tonight and now have the best record in baseball at 77-48.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:49 PM
This offense is a free swinging bunch.

remdog
08-19-2008, 10:50 PM
One of the things that impressed me about Jay Bruce when he first came up was his patience and waiting for his pitch. But he just struck out on a high fastball, above the shoulders and outside. He needs to get back to being more patient.

Rem

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:51 PM
Cueto back out there for the 7th. Unbelievable. I can't stand Dusty Baker.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:53 PM
One of the things that impressed me about Jay Bruce when he first came up was his patience and waiting for his pitch. But he just struck out on a high fastball, above the shoulders and outside. He needs to get back to being more patient.

Rem

But you forgot that Dusty wants our young hitters to me 'more aggressive at the plate'. See my signature.

By the way, Reds have zero walks through 7 innings and only 2 hits.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:53 PM
Cueto back out there for the 7th. Unbelievable. I can't stand Dusty Baker.

I'm no fan either, but it's the bottom of the order

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:54 PM
What an outing be Johnny. Get that man some runs.

VR
08-19-2008, 10:55 PM
Cueto back out there for the 7th. Unbelievable. I can't stand Dusty Baker.


Neither can I!
But, I'd love for him to taste the 8th inning at least once this year. (not tonight)That's what dominant pitchers learn to do.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 10:55 PM
ee better go deep, because then it's pretty much three easy outs in a row...

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 10:56 PM
Nice 7th by Cueto. After 7; Reds 0 , Cubs 1.

Harden 94 pitches, 62 strikes
Cueto 111 pitches, 67 strikes

The Cubs are bringing in Marmol for the 8th. They won't push their guy over 100 pitches.

RedsManRick
08-19-2008, 10:56 PM
Nice, quick inning from Cueto. 7 IP, 1 ER, 110 pitches. Let's hope Dusty pulls him because the Reds need a PH. Gonna be a tough row to hoe against Marmol and Wood.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:56 PM
Thank goodness Johnny only threw 11 pitches that inning. I still don't like the decision to bring him back out when this team is clearly going no where.

Cueto's final line: 7 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1 BB, 6 K

That one run should have never happened.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 10:57 PM
What an outing be Johnny. Get that man some runs.

That was easy.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 10:58 PM
Thank goodness Johnny only threw 11 pitches that inning. I still don't like the decision to bring him back out when this team is clearly going no where.

Cueto's final line: 7 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1 BB, 6 K

That one run should have never happened.


It's not meaningless to Cueto. It's a 1 - 0 game.

He pitched a hell of a game tonight.

He was still on form and still hitting 96 on the gun in the 7th.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 10:59 PM
This is looking like it will be the second time this year Cueto left a game 1-0 and got the loss. The other was at Yankee Stadium.

reds44
08-19-2008, 10:59 PM
Why the hell is Corey Patterson still on this team?

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Good inning by Cueto and he still has stuff.

I know, I know, complete games (read multiple for the season) are remnants of the Jerasic Age but ask Warren Spahn, Robin Roberts or Bob Gibson about being yanked after 100 pitches. First thing is that the guy that comes out to remove them based upon pitch count might get clocked so hard that, in future games, he couldn't count. :D Ummm, by the way are all three of those guys still alive? :p:

Rem

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:00 PM
It's not meaningless to Cueto. It's a 1 - 0 game.

He pitched a hell of a game tonight.

He was still on form and still hitting 96 on the gun in the 7th.

If the Reds were still in the playoff race I would have no problem sending back out there but with the Reds 15 games below .500 I'd like to see Dusty take it easy with the kids.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 11:03 PM
Good inning by Cueto and he still has stuff.

I know, I know, complete games (read multiple for the season) are remnants of the Jerasic Age but ask Warren Spahn, Robin Roberts or Bob Gibson about being yanked after 100 pitches. First thing is that the guy that comes out to remove them based upon pitch count might get clocked so hard that, in future games, he couldn't count. :D Ummm, by the way are all three of those guys still alive? :p:

Rem

I think 100 pitches is too many. They shouldn't go over 70. :p:

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 11:03 PM
If the Reds were still in the playoff race I would have no problem sending back out there but with the Reds 15 games below .500 I'd like to see Dusty take it easy with the kids.

RFS makes a good point that is often overlooked in our desire to coddle pitchers -- it's still a big game to Cueto.

Sold out crowd at Wrigley, playoff atmosphere. He wants to win the game, I'm sure.

There's a balance to be struck, but I like giving kids a chance to throw the big inning every now and then. It helps prepare him for some future date in some future season where keeping the team in a 1 run game might be of some import.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:04 PM
If the Reds were still in the playoff race I would have no problem sending back out there but with the Reds 15 games below .500 I'd like to see Dusty take it easy with the kids.


One of the problems I have with the 100 pitch limit is it's just an arbitrary number. If you tell a kid he's done after 100 pitches, that's what they train for... that's what gets in their heads.

I'd rather see Cueto and Volquez learn how to go deep. There's a lot more to pitcher abuse than just that number.

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:05 PM
...I like giving kids a chance to throw the big inning every now and then. It helps prepare him for some future date in some future season where keeping the team in a 1 run game might be of some import.

Excellent point.

Rem

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 11:05 PM
joey forgot how to throw during his time off

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
One of the problems I have with the 100 pitch limit is it's just an arbitrary number. If you tell a kid he's done after 100 pitches, that's what they train for... that's what gets in their heads.

Pitchers aren't stupid either -- they know when they see the pitch counter (on a jumbotron in virtually every new ballpark) ticking to 3 digits that their nights are coming to a close.

You can't tell me they don't start throwing harder because they know it's getting close to bedtime and they don't have to worry about the next inning. That can't be good either.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
lee is a good candidate for a dp

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
RFS makes a good point that is often overlooked in our desire to coddle pitchers -- it's still a big game to Cueto.

Sold out crowd at Wrigley, playoff atmosphere. He wants to win the game, I'm sure.

There's a balance to be struck, but I like giving kids a chance to throw the big inning every now and then. It helps prepare him for some future date in some future season where keeping the team in a 1 run game might be of some import.


exactly right

VR
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
One of the problems I have with the 100 pitch limit is it's just an arbitrary number. If you tell a kid he's done after 100 pitches, that's what they train for... that's what gets in their heads.

I'd rather see Cueto and Volquez learn how to go deep. There's a lot more to pitcher abuse than just that number.

amen.

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:06 PM
One of the problems I have with the 100 pitch limit is it's just an arbitrary number. If you tell a kid he's done after 100 pitches, that's what they train for... that's what gets in their heads.

I'd rather see Cueto and Volquez learn how to go deep. There's a lot more to pitcher abuse than just that number.

Again, an excellent point.

Rem

Puffy
08-19-2008, 11:07 PM
One of the problems I have with the 100 pitch limit is it's just an arbitrary number. If you tell a kid he's done after 100 pitches, that's what they train for... that's what gets in their heads.

I'd rather see Cueto and Volquez learn how to go deep. There's a lot more to pitcher abuse than just that number.

word.

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Pitchers aren't stupid either -- they know when they see the pitch counter (on a jumbotron in virtually every new ballpark) ticking to 3 digits that their nights are coming to a close.

You can't tell me they don't start throwing harder because they know it's getting close to bedtime and they don't have to worry about the next inning. That can't be good either.

Hmmm,....logic abounds in this part of the thread. How refreshing! :)

Rem

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:08 PM
And now the Cubs are about to bust this game open thanks to more awful defense.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Alfonso Soriano hesitates, then runs through the stop sign, but Jay Bruce's throw was not very good.

reds44
08-19-2008, 11:09 PM
Dagger.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:12 PM
This middle relief is still much more "joke" than "solution." People trumpet them a lot, but I don't see it. It's like the Cubs were just waiting on middling junk like Lincoln's.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 11:13 PM
the cubs definitely have the "team of destiny" feel about them this year...sigh...

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:14 PM
the cubs definitely have the "team of destiny" feel about them this year...sigh...



They've had it before.

I'm pulling for the goat.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:15 PM
What's sad is that the Reds' second-best reliever has pretty obviously been Weathers.

Same as last year.

Red in Chicago
08-19-2008, 11:16 PM
i don't know how fukudome ever gets hit with that swing of his...

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:17 PM
the cubs definitely have the "team of destiny" feel about them this year...sigh...

But fate would then deny them a record that probably would never be broken. No professional team has ever gone 100 years without winning the WS. Isn't that a much more memorable record than being the 'destiny team' for 2008?

Rem

_Sir_Charles_
08-19-2008, 11:20 PM
This is just a shame. Cueto does NOT deserve to take the L in this game. *sigh*

CTA513
08-19-2008, 11:20 PM
Already on to the 3rd pitcher of the inning.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Bill "My ERA Never Changes Because I Let Other People's Runners Score" Bray.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Sooooooo...... what's going on at the Olympics?

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:21 PM
That should have been a double play but Bray missed it.

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 11:21 PM
What's sad is that the Reds' second-best reliever has pretty obviously been Weathers.

Same as last year.

Burton has a 2.23 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP, with a 9.31 K/9 rate.
Bray (before tonight) had a 2.70 ERA and 1.55 WHIP, wih a 9.68 K/9 rate

Weathers has a 3.23 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, and a 6.50 K/9 rate.

That makes Weathers 3rd best out of the pen.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:21 PM
Bill "My ERA Never Changes Because I Let Other People's Runners Score" Bray.

I remember someone saying a while back that Bray was stranding 85% of inherited runners.

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:22 PM
Burton has a 2.23 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP, with a 9.31 K/9 rate.
Bray (before tonight) had a 2.70 ERA and 1.55 WHIP, wih a 9.68 K/9 rate

Weathers has a 3.23 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, and a 6.50 K/9 rate.

That makes Weathers 3rd best out of the pen.

Bray has the most deceptive ERA in human history.

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Bill "My ERA Never Changes Because I Let Other People's Runners Score" Bray.

Waitaminute...I keep hearing that he's really good! :rolleyes:

edabbs44
08-19-2008, 11:24 PM
Bill "My ERA Never Changes Because I Let Other People's Runners Score" Bray.

Gotta agree there. For some reason, few bring up the whole "ERA is not a good indicator or a reliever's performance" when it comes to this guy. Maybe they just desperately want there to be a "winner" of "the trade" once and for all.

Highlifeman21
08-19-2008, 11:25 PM
What's sad is that the Reds' second-best reliever has pretty obviously been Weathers.

Same as last year.

The Reds will continue to be a sad ballclub/organization as long as David Weathers is anywhere near being their 2nd best reliever.

Caveat Emperor
08-19-2008, 11:25 PM
Just heard that LeRoi Moore, sax player for the Dave Matthews Band, died tonight from complications surrounding an ATV accident he had a few months ago.

Wow. Celebrity deaths usually don't hit me too hard, but this one really is.

Puts the Reds awfulness in a bit of perspective tonight.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:25 PM
If Jocketty acquired Bray he'd be a stud. ;)

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:26 PM
Ya' know, this Reds team has been really, really miserable but you'd think/hope that they would at least take out some frustration and put up a better fight against the despicable Chubbies.

Rem

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:27 PM
If Jocketty acquired Bray he'd be a stud. ;)

Right. Like Masset? Pretty obvious that that guy's a clunker.

I'm being the objective one here. I know when someone's peeing on my leg and calling it a thunderstorm.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:28 PM
2 hitter.

perfect

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 11:28 PM
Bray has the most deceptive ERA in human history.

Yes, he has been lucky.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:29 PM
make that a 3 hitter

much, much better

letsgojunior
08-19-2008, 11:29 PM
Sooooooo...... what's going on at the Olympics?

Women's gymnastics is on in 10 minutes! :)

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 11:30 PM
Ya' know, this Reds team has been really, really miserable but you'd think/hope that they would at least take out some frustration and put up a better fight against the despicable Chubbies.

Rem

Might be just what the doctor ordered. I would like to see Bronson Arroyo pull a Dock Ellis and hit every batter he faces tomorrow.

(No, I don't mean a Dock Ellis as in pitching while tripping on LSD! :eek:)

mbgrayson
08-19-2008, 11:31 PM
Bruce Ks swinging on that high and outside fastball every time.

RFS62
08-19-2008, 11:31 PM
Reds send 30 men to the plate tonight.

Wonderful

Falls City Beer
08-19-2008, 11:31 PM
Bruce Ks swinging on that high and outside fastball every time.

Shades of Willie Greene. *ducks*

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:32 PM
Once again, Bruce goes after a pitch above the neck. :thumbdown

Rem

remdog
08-19-2008, 11:33 PM
(No, I don't mean a Dock Ellis as in pitching while tripping on LSD! :eek:)

But, but...that's when Dock pitched his best! :lol:

Rem

Big Klu
08-19-2008, 11:34 PM
Women's gymnastics is on in 10 minutes! :)

Will Alicia Sacramone be on? :thumbup::luvu:

Highlifeman21
08-19-2008, 11:42 PM
Just heard that LeRoi Moore, sax player for the Dave Matthews Band, died tonight from complications surrounding an ATV accident he had a few months ago.

Wow. Celebrity deaths usually don't hit me too hard, but this one really is.

Puts the Reds awfulness in a bit of perspective tonight.

Wow, no way.

You're absolutely right, losing a talented musician (and he definitely was) like LeRoi makes you forget completely that the Reds are horrible.

OnBaseMachine
08-19-2008, 11:45 PM
Shades of Willie Greene. *ducks*

I knew it wouldn't be long before fans started to turn on Bruce.

WVRedsFan
08-20-2008, 12:07 AM
I knew it wouldn't be long before fans started to turn on Bruce.

He seems to have lost all sense of the game these days. Of course, he's just a kid and will get better. And I know some will scoff, but who is going to lead him the right way in the outfield? There's no Griffey or Dunn out there and he looks to his right and sees Corey Patterson and Henry...er...Chris Dickerson, another rookie. As much as this team needs youth (who everyone loves and defends even when they do stupid things), it also needs veteran leadership--something it doesn't have, so...

I keep telling myself that he's only 21.

Spring~Fields
08-20-2008, 12:30 AM
I knew it wouldn't be long before fans started to turn on Bruce.

I would prefer that rookies bat sixth or seventh from the beginning, for the entire season, giving them the season to learn.

I guess they don't think much of their veteran players, seems like they would be holding down the 1-5.

Why not a Patterson, Bako, Hairston or Encarncion in the three and bat Bruce down in the order?

RFS62
08-20-2008, 12:35 AM
I keep telling myself that he's only 21.



That's pretty much the only thing any of us should be telling ourselves about him.

What 21 year old on earth is any better?

corkedbat
08-20-2008, 01:16 AM
I knew it wouldn't be long before fans started to turn on Bruce.

I haven't "turned" on JB in the least. I realize he's 21 and there's plenty for him to learn. My problem is how this franchise seems ready to put him at the center of their re-building plan - like he was a finished product.

I would drop him in the order and hope that he can make adjustments over the last few weeks of the season. After the season I would make it clear to him what he needs to work on and also stress that he does not have the opening day roster made.

I'd like to see them add at least two or three OF options this offseason also to give the team the option of starting Bruce out in Louisville if he doesn't respond. I don't know that there are two or three OF options out there that are going to make a difference whether we compete or not, but neither is Jay Bruce until he makes the necessary adjustments.

If he does show improvement then any OFs you bring in give you a stronger bench or become bargaining chips to help fix another hole.

Matt700wlw
08-20-2008, 02:22 AM
Why on earth would I root for a player on the Reds to do poorly?

I'm no big fan of CPat, but it's not his fault he can't hit. He doesn't make out the lineup.

You think his effort level is suspect?

I don't. I just don't think he can hit.
I doubt he's trying to suck......he just does. If he were a woman, I'd be glad he was good at it...

Tony Cloninger
08-20-2008, 04:42 AM
Votto made a bad throw to home.......but the runner made a good heads up...agressive play....so instead of placing blame, how about giving the runner more credit and not look gor who is really at fault.

Bako is too easy a target.....and calling for a throw to 1st was the right call....EE made agood quick throw.....Votto just Garveyed it back to Paul.
Soto's speed and daringness caught them off guard...IMO.

GEORGE FOSTER.....ERIC DAVIS....TONY PEREZ.....those are 3 players i can name who were not yet ready for prime time at 21.

redsmetz
08-20-2008, 07:21 AM
GEORGE FOSTER.....ERIC DAVIS....TONY PEREZ.....those are 3 players i can name who were not yet ready for prime time at 21.

The only one of the three who was playing in the majors at age 21 was Foster who had two brief stints with the Giants at ages 20 and 21. He was traded to the Reds during when he was 22, and the rest is, as they say, history.

Davis didn't start playing had a couple of 50 game stints with the club when he was 22 and 23 and stayed up from 24 on. Perez had a short stint at 22, then stayed up after that.

These guys are still young and developing.

lollipopcurve
08-20-2008, 10:51 AM
Bako is too easy a target

Why? Because he clearly made the wrong call?

It's the catcher's job to direct Edwin's throw there -- just as he should direct the pitcher when the pitcher fields a bunt. To me, it's a no-brainer.

lollipopcurve
08-20-2008, 10:56 AM
My problem is how this franchise seems ready to put him at the center of their re-building plan - like he was a finished product.

agreed

he's buckling right now, and Baker should recognize that and take the pressure off -- as many others have noted, Bruce should be dropped in the batting order -- I'd have Votto 3rd

Falls City Beer
08-20-2008, 12:00 PM
I knew it wouldn't be long before fans started to turn on Bruce.

Nah. Not turning on him. Just an observation. He does chase bad stuff. But we knew that.

Tony Cloninger
08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
It is also a no brainer to me that throwing to 1st to get the easy out was not a bad choice......and if Votto makes a good throw....they still have a chance to get the runner. Read the whole breakdown i did....instead of again ..focusing on the easy target. Give the other team's player some credit as well.....and if Keppinger is not standing on 3rd...what point is it to even look at the runner unless you see him on your right side. He was a few yards behind EE....so if he turns around to freeze him, he might lose the runner at 1st.
He got the easier out....runner made a good play, Votto made a weak throw.

Good thing Cueto pitched a good game or else Bako would be blamed for calling a crappy game for him and he would be the reason he pitched bad.
The easier thing to do is keep harping on PB terrible hitting......that cannot ever be denied.

GAC
08-20-2008, 09:23 PM
He's thinking squeeze and looked home like he should have been. Bako pointed to first, and that's where the ball went. He made a good play.

Bako either messed up by pointing to first, or someone else made a mistake by not sliding over to cover third. Outside of just not liking Edwin, I can't see how someone blames him for that. He's thinking out first, trusting his catcher to tell him where to go.

I agree there was numerous mistakes made during that play. Kepp should have been covering 3B to hold that runner. Bako made two mistakes - telling him to go to 1B, and then not getting back in position, getting caught off guard on the throw back home because the throw was right there on the 3B side of the plate. Unfortunately, Bako was nowhere in the right position.

But EE was the guy with ball in hand. And as I stated before - you should already be mentally prepared, as that next batter comes to the plate, as to where you're going to make the play if the ball is hit to you.

He still had time to look back and check that runner before going to 1B.