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View Full Version : My last ever Adam Dunn Thread - from the ORG "Dunn Appreciation Thread"



BLEEDS
08-20-2008, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD:
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71000 (entire thread, great read if you like to see what sensible people think of AD)

Adam Dunn is the most under-appreciated Red ever. It honestly sickens me that the Reds were not able to cull more advertisting revenue from forwarding the concept that he was a player people should come out to watch. Especially for his age, his production as a Red has been historic, a concept lost on the awful announcers the Reds continue to employ, the inept radio stations the Reds continue to support, and an intense throng of nonsensical fans who have little idea how baseball actually works.

Adam Dunn has been a tough guy to take out. He's worked through many injuries over the course of his career and he's done so without excuse. He's smart. He's personable and funny. Those attributes would have earned him a better nickname than "Big Donkey" in the long-ago-time and his grit, determination, and consistency should have earned him better treatment from both the media and fans than we have seen. Had the Reds put a better team around him, who knows what folks might be calling him today. "Mr. October" didn't get there by himself. Not "clutch"? Nah. If that's the excuse, then we're not paying attention.

Instead, we saw a truly marketable player lambasted time after time for having the audacity to not be able to pitch a lick and not be able to coach a lick and not be able to make numerous front offices draft a lick or trade a lick or find anything resembling a cohesive team. In the end, Dunn's time ran out. He was here for every single moment of every single "win-now" scenario, but was always handcuffed by an owner and/or GM who really didn't know how.

Farewell, Adam Dunn. You're not an "enigma". You're just an incredibly productive player folks didn't appreciate because you're not someone who folks wanted you to be. You weren't appreciated not because you weren't productive. You weren't appreciated because you weren't nostalgic. You didn't allow folks to harken back to times where they recognized your game. And that's far more a commentary on Cincinnati Reds fans than it is you.

You have talent, you have drive, you have heart, you have the grit, and you have the soul. Now it's time for you to put it together for a team, and hopefully, a fan base that understands exactly how valuable you are.

bounty37h
08-20-2008, 01:49 PM
so, all I wanna know after reading that, can Bleeds be banned now if he does have another AD thread? He promised :)

Ghosts of 1990
08-20-2008, 01:55 PM
There was no bigger Adam Dunn fan in the world then me. Its well documented on my blog.

HOWEVER:

1) Dunn was not coming back. He wants money more than the $15-17 million per year I believe he was worth. He wants to break the $100 million by far. I aparently had the wool pulled over my eyes to adam dunn. I thought he was down-home, country boy, laid back... didn't care about the money and was probably as good of a candidate as anyone NOT to try and break us with a contract and maybe take a discount/fair deal. I was wrong.

2) I talked to my source in the organization. They told me that EVERYONE was glad to see Dunn go minus a few players. Said that his lack of passion for the game (and I thought this wasn't the case) has really shown recently in his work ethic and to a smaller degree his play.

BLEEDS
08-20-2008, 03:06 PM
There was no bigger Adam Dunn fan in the world then me. Its well documented on my blog.

HOWEVER:

1) Dunn was not coming back. He wants money more than the $15-17 million per year I believe he was worth. He wants to break the $100 million by far. I aparently had the wool pulled over my eyes to adam dunn. I thought he was down-home, country boy, laid back... didn't care about the money and was probably as good of a candidate as anyone NOT to try and break us with a contract and maybe take a discount/fair deal. I was wrong.

2) I talked to my source in the organization. They told me that EVERYONE was glad to see Dunn go minus a few players. Said that his lack of passion for the game (and I thought this wasn't the case) has really shown recently in his work ethic and to a smaller degree his play.

Is your #1 based upon facts, or heresay?

I could buy #2, even though that would not be like AD, but if by "recent" you mean after they traded Griff, I don't doubt that all of the Reds are guilty of that to some degree.

I'm not saying the guy's an Angel, but I think he worked hard and was his biggest critic by far and truly CARED about the game, and his performance. Being stuck on a horrible team, with a horrible manager, and a historically bad run of owners and GM's will jade a guy after awhile. Look at Barry Sanders for an example. Went out WAY too early.

FWIW, I think Dunn is well liked by many many players, and he took Bruce under his wing, etc... I can only guess at a few of the names of the "team" players that were glad to see Dunn go.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 03:31 PM
#1 has been disputed by AD... even as much to say it was a lie.

#2 was probably Brandon Phillips who now wants to be face of the franchise. He realized that he couldn't be a "leader" without the big fella off the team.

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 04:33 PM
FWIW, I think Dunn is well liked by many many players, and he took Bruce under his wing, etc...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Lets hope Bruce did not learn too much from Dunner.

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 04:53 PM
I would hate for Jay to learn how to command the strikezone. Jay already strikes out at a pace that would make Dunn look like Joe D.

Javy Pornstache
08-20-2008, 05:08 PM
Lets hope Bruce did not learn too much from Dunner.

He obviously hasn't learned pitch selection and not to swing at pitches over his eyes from the Dunner. Yet.

ChatterRed
08-20-2008, 06:06 PM
I hope our young outfielders weren't learning any fielding techniques from the Dunner. ;)

ChatterRed
08-20-2008, 06:07 PM
So let's see. This team sucks without Dunn and Griffey...........but they weren't a playoff team with them.

Glad we moved on.

Lockdwn11
08-20-2008, 07:02 PM
Lets hope Bruce did not learn too much from Dunner.

I thought the same thing.

tommycash
08-20-2008, 07:17 PM
NaNaNa NaNaNa Hey Hey Hey Goodbye.

I am just kidding Bleeds.

I will miss Adam Dunn, I still remember going to Louisville to watch him play in his short time there thinking this guy will retire with a lot of HRs.

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 07:42 PM
Dunn was a good player just not a franchise type player and I am not upset that he is gone. I wish him good luck in Arizona and really wish him good luck in getting that 120 million dollar contract he wants.

ChatterRed
08-20-2008, 08:22 PM
Seriously, I like Adam. I just don't think he is such a difference maker that this team has to have him. I think this team is in turnover mode to the next generation, and they can't afford him. I also think they need better defense in the OF. This team was/is one dimensional and needs to diversify.

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 11:50 PM
Dunn hit a 3 run HR off of Peavy in the 1st inning tonight. Just another HR with guys on base to get his team back in the game.

Griffey012
08-21-2008, 12:24 AM
I love the point you made about the Reds Organization, the announcers, etc. about marketing Dunn as the "Big Donkey" honestly I can remember a Red who played as big of a role on the Reds marketed less. Even with events like Dunn bobblehead night he is wearing an 80's retro outfit. Why not just a normal Dunn bobblehead. To me the organization was one of the biggest culprits in the image Dunn now has.

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 12:42 AM
Dunn was just walked again... He has no reached base 19 times in 8 games since joining AZ. Folks on Dback message boards are eating him up.

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 12:45 AM
Dback announcers are even telling people that they need to look past BA and focus more on OBP. They are talking about the major effect Dunn has had on the lineup.

I(heart)Freel
08-21-2008, 09:42 AM
While I advocated for the trade, I still wished the Big Lug all the best in the desert.

But then I read the column today on yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiFQSxGplGDwYrPtJ8snISYRvLYF?slug=ti-dunn082008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Am I remembering wrong? Werent we in a little pennant push two years ago... leading the wild card as late as early September? And didn't Adam bellyflop in the final month?

I do like the guy and wish him well. Just quotes/tone like that rub me the wrong way.

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 10:37 AM
Dunn hit a 3 run HR off of Peavy in the 1st inning tonight. Just another HR with guys on base to get his team back in the game.

Yeah, but I'm sure he cost them 2-3 in the field :confused:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 10:48 AM
Dunn was just walked again... He has no reached base 19 times in 8 games since joining AZ. Folks on Dback message boards are eating him up.

YEAHBUT!!! he's only got 8 hits in 8 games. And 11 walks. And 7 runs. And 8 RBI's. Oh - and ONE Error in LF.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 10:51 AM
if you honestly think dunn got to even as many balls as an average outfielder.. you my friend are not watching.. I didnt say it was 2-3 runs a game.. but even having 4 or 5 games in a year where he gives up an extra 2 runs.... negates 5 or 6 of his homers.. 8-10 rbis from homers that is...

AD wanted out.. he was making excuses for getting out after his boy griffey was traded.. I don't know why NO ONE wants to believe he wasn't coming back anyways.. heck his mom hated marty.. thats enough to leave.. ohh wait.........

BLEEDS this Reds team is not doing it consistently, but they are starting to win the right way.. please oh please go watch another team because you will be sorely disappointed and just pointing fingers when this reds team wins games the way they should.. in GABP small ball players not only get the manufactured runs, but the home runs also come more than most parks..

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 10:56 AM
But then I read the column today on yahoo.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AiFQSxGplGDwYrPtJ8snISYRvLYF?slug=ti-dunn082008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns



Did you read this part?:

“That’s why we’ve got Dunn right there, I guess,” Diamondbacks third baseman Mark Reynolds said. “It’s awesome. He creates so much. It’s pretty cool to have something like that.”

They beat the Padres on Wednesday night, 8-6. They won though their 14-game winner, Dan Haren, allowed four first-inning runs. But with one out, a couple of guys got on, Dunn came up and worked Peavy for seven pitches, the last of which changed everything.
“I was hoping at 3-2 Jake wouldn’t throw me the slider right there,” Dunn said, “and he didn’t.”

Fastball, down.

“He hits homers,” Peavy said. “He changes games.”

Meanwhile in L.A., Ramirez had a lousy single in four at-bats, the Dodgers lost, and the Diamondbacks are two games up.

“When I talked to Adam, I told him, ‘Don’t try to be something you’re not,’ ” Diamondbacks manager Bob Melvin said. “Just be Adam Dunn. And he’s been exactly that.”

Dunn saw 22 pitches in four plate appearances. He walked twice, once after an 0-2 count. He’s going to strike out – “obviously,” he said, “I strike out a lot” – but what happens around those strikeouts is going to help color a division race.

“It just seems like it takes a lot of pressure off a lot of the guys,” Melvin said. “Nailing down the four-hole for us allows guys not to press so much.”

"""

What a concept, actually USING the guy the way he should be, and NOT asking him to be something he's not.

Gee, take pitches, work counts, etc... not "being aggressive for aggressive's sake" as Dusty and some of our fans would ask for.

Good things happen.

WEIRD!!

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 10:57 AM
if you honestly think dunn got to even as many balls as an average outfielder.. you my friend are not watching.. I didnt say it was 2-3 runs a game.. but even having 4 or 5 games in a year where he gives up an extra 2 runs.... negates 5 or 6 of his homers.. 8-10 rbis from homers that is...

AD wanted out.. he was making excuses for getting out after his boy griffey was traded.. I don't know why NO ONE wants to believe he wasn't coming back anyways.. heck his mom hated marty.. thats enough to leave.. ohh wait.........

BLEEDS this Reds team is not doing it consistently, but they are starting to win the right way.. please oh please go watch another team because you will be sorely disappointed and just pointing fingers when this reds team wins games the way they should.. in GABP small ball players not only get the manufactured runs, but the home runs also come more than most parks..

:deadhorse

I was looking for the "broken record" smilie, but we don't have one...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 10:58 AM
if you honestly think dunn got to even as many balls as an average outfielder.. you my friend are not watching.. I didnt say it was 2-3 runs a game.. but even having 4 or 5 games in a year where he gives up an extra 2 runs.... negates 5 or 6 of his homers.. 8-10 rbis from homers that is...

AD wanted out.. he was making excuses for getting out after his boy griffey was traded.. I don't know why NO ONE wants to believe he wasn't coming back anyways.. heck his mom hated marty.. thats enough to leave.. ohh wait.........

BLEEDS this Reds team is not doing it consistently, but they are starting to win the right way.. please oh please go watch another team because you will be sorely disappointed and just pointing fingers when this reds team wins games the way they should.. in GABP small ball players not only get the manufactured runs, but the home runs also come more than most parks..


There is just so much wrong with what you said. The Reds got a great great perfromance out of Bronson last night, and they caught a break on a wild pitch and a bloop double that should have been caught. I'll take any win I can get, but the Reds are not going to win any pennants by collecting 6 hits in 2 games. You don't win with small ball! It's nice to see the Reds scratch out a win, but the problem is they won't win unless they get pitching like they did last night. This is a terrible terrible team, that has zero hope next season unless some big aquisitions are made.

texasdave
08-21-2008, 11:00 AM
Am I remembering wrong? Werent we in a little pennant push two years ago... leading the wild card as late as early September? And didn't Adam bellyflop in the final month?


You aren't "misremembering" a single thing. On the morning of August 25th that year, AD woke up on a team that was tied for first place with a record of 67-61. Funny thing that Dunn wasn't nervous back then and didn't really consider himself to be in a pennant race. Even moreso since it was later in the year and the team had a better winning percentage than the DBacks had when AD was shuffled off to Arizona.

So how did Dunn respond to being in his first "actual" pennant race? To be polite he didn't. The man, considered by some to be "slump-proof", OPSed a whopping .583 in his last 34 games. During this same time span the '100 million-dollar man' drove in just 3 of the 78 runners on base when he came to the plate - an OBI% of 3.85%. :eek: Sounds like a slump to me.

And so maybe that is why AD is trying to forget that 2006 ever happened. Responding with those types of numbers, who wouldn't want to forget?

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 11:02 AM
Yet again Dunn gets blamed for the entire offense going in the tank. Nobody on the '06 team played worth a damn the final month of the season.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 11:22 AM
There is just so much wrong with what you said. The Reds got a great great perfromance out of Bronson last night, and they caught a break on a wild pitch and a bloop double that should have been caught. I'll take any win I can get, but the Reds are not going to win any pennants by collecting 6 hits in 2 games. You don't win with small ball! It's nice to see the Reds scratch out a win, but the problem is they won't win unless they get pitching like they did last night. This is a terrible terrible team, that has zero hope next season unless some big aquisitions are made.


you are right.. some of the defense and things that they did as a team werent the other part of it..

3 things for a successful team..
1)Pitching.. sure had it last night..
2)Defense.. ALSO sure had it last night
3)ability to create and score enough runs to win.. ALSO sure had that last night..

when was the last time in a week this team has had multiple times in games where a guy gets on second with no outs.. then a ground ball to the right side advances him to third.. and then a sac fly scores him..

I said those 3 things were the crucial part of this teams success.. and if you improve 1 and 2 like they have.. part 3 will be alot easier on you as this young ball club matures..

texasdave
08-21-2008, 11:33 AM
Yet again Dunn gets blamed for the entire offense going in the tank.

Wrong. No one is placing the '06 collapse on Adam Dunn. That post was merely a response to AD saying that he had "never" been in a pennant race before. Which is entirely incorrect, he had been. I was just offering up one possible reason why it slipped Dunn's mind.

Regardless, if a player says something dumb, or takes a back-handed swipe at the Reds' organization, shouldn't they be called on it? I think they should.

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 11:33 AM
We'll see how many times that get as lucky as the did last night... Without outstanding pitching, the Reds are going to be terrible!

It amazes me how much you guys love these productive outs!

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 11:39 AM
Yet again Dunn gets blamed for the entire offense going in the tank. Nobody on the '06 team played worth a damn the final month of the season.

the "offensive leader" had an OPS of .583, he sure as hell isnt paid for defense soo we should probably be asking for our money back.. right..? while the TEAM average OPS including his awesomeness was .657

for example during that time..
Rich Aurilia.. .897 OPS..
Norris Hopper.. .914 OPS..

soo dont tell me NOONE played worth a damn that final month..


Had Griffey not gotten hurt.. and had Bphill not have blown his load early in his first full year in the majors this team could have even overcome atlas dunns collapse..

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 11:39 AM
If I was Dunn I would be taking swipes at the organization, the media, the fans, and especially the broadcasters! For a guy that never complained, constantly produced, and played every day he took more BS than anyone since Eric Davis. I love the Reds but the way Adam Dunn was treated in Cincinnati is an absolute joke.

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 11:42 AM
Had Griffey not gotten hurt.. and had Bphill not have blown his load early in his first full year in the majors this team could have even overcome atlas dunns collapse..


I love the excuses for Brandon!

And yes, Norris Hopper and his 21 games and 39 ABs! LOL!

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 11:43 AM
constantly produced.. with adam dunn.. now that is FUNNY..

just look at his 2008 splits.. since all we care about is OPS..
OPS of sub .800 in april, june, and august..
OPS above 1.1 in May and July...

that is CONSISTENT....

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 11:48 AM
I love the excuses for Brandon!

And yes, Norris Hopper and his 21 games and 39 ABs! LOL!

What excuse?? its true..

Dunn had a month of an OPS over 1 his rookie year, and then the last month it dropped to .850....

Still doesn't address the fact that the claim was that NOONE did anything at the end of that year..

heck the pitching.. was the BEST that september with a TEAM era of 3.64.. more than half a run better than any other month..

quit making excuses for why we should pay a guy to be an offensive leader if he can't lead a 3 piece marching band down a straight street..

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 11:52 AM
You could break down every player in month by month segments. And some months will be better than others... That's why the season is 162 games. If 40, 100, 100, and 100 isn't consistent then I would like to hear your definition.

You are right about Dunn sucking it up at the end of '06. But he has rebounded the last 2 seasons, he's cut down his K total and he's playing better defense. Now that he's on a good team, his numbers are going to keep going up.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 11:59 AM
i would agree he has cut down his k's and improved on defense.. but lets also be honest.. you can only go up from about zero defense..

consistent is a guy who doesnt have 100 point BA swings month to month..

Dunn might be hott right now.. but with how we is probably the streakiest power swinger in the game today he will surely cool off either right before the playoffs or during them, which is not what AZ wants.. unless he does something he has NEVER done.. stay hot for a more than 3 week period that is usually followed by the lowest of slumps..

Fon Duc Tow
08-21-2008, 12:03 PM
Adam Dunn's production will be sorely missed.

Good to see some teams know how to use their players.

Well, not really good at all.

Duhhhhsty and the Reds :rolleyes:

Hard to be a fan sometimes.

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 12:12 PM
and no excuses, but Dunn was playing with a broken wrist the last half of that year...

The entire team stunk down the stretch, especially offensively - other than the great Norris Hopper (BWAHAHAHAH!)

And of course your special friend BP gets away with a 149 .204 .253 .457 line that year, because as you put it, he "blew his wad". Totally understandable.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 12:13 PM
Even when he slumped in Cincy he got on base. He's got a team around him now that will pick him up, and even protect him at the plate. Most of his slumps were due to him trying to do to much. He would go on a tear and then pitchers would quit pitching to him. Once they quit he would be less selective because the people around him weren't doing the job. I think it's great that AZ and their fans realize what a difference he's made in their lineup. Think Reds fans will notice too, once they see how much trouble we have scoring runs.

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 12:21 PM
2006 August lines:
BP .149 .204 .253 .457
Dunn .157 .333 .265 .598
Ross .185 .281 .389 .670
Hatte .206 .349 .235 .585
Freel .208 .311 .302 .613
EE .214 .299 .286 .585
Hopper .361 .442 .472 .914
Aurilia .344 .385 .511 .897

Yes, surely looks like Dunn's Fault...

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Krawhitham
08-21-2008, 12:51 PM
Is your #1 based upon facts, or heresay?

If he was coming back he still can and they got 3 players to boot.

The Reds can sign him just like any other team this off season, the Reds were going NO WHERE this season and now he gets a change to get a ring. If he likes the Reds that much he can pull a Ricky Henderson and resign with the Reds this off season

Rob387
08-21-2008, 01:00 PM
Anyone see Dunn's 3 run blast off of Jake Peavy last night?

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 01:06 PM
After playing for a winner with fans that appreciate him, he'll never resign.

Rob387
08-21-2008, 01:33 PM
here's a good Dunn article on Yahoo Sports

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ak9P8Iv9GZx5L6XM7lTDVOsRvLYF?slug=ti-dunn082008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 01:40 PM
2006 August lines:
BP .149 .204 .253 .457
Dunn .157 .333 .265 .598
Ross .185 .281 .389 .670
Hatte .206 .349 .235 .585
Freel .208 .311 .302 .613
EE .214 .299 .286 .585
Hopper .361 .442 .472 .914
Aurilia .344 .385 .511 .897

you meant september for anyone looking those stats up.. because bphils line in august was .330/.377/.604/.981..........

but the fact remains.. 1 player on that list was the "offensive player".. everyone else is paid for both offense and defense..

But lets look at the total salary for the Offense and defense players compared to JUST dunns salary...

O and D...
2006 August lines:
BP.. 300+k..
Ross.. 500k..
Hatte.. 750k..
Freel.. 1.3 mil..
EE.. 335k..
Hopper.. 300+k..
Aurilia.. 1.3 mil..

Totalling.. 4.4 mil..

Dunn alone.. 7.5 mil...


IF you are paying a guy to be the offensive leader.. and he is BELOW average when you need him the most.. how can you blame the rest of the team for not winning?

thats like saying..
W pay jeff gordon to drive our race car.. and since he was playing game boy while he drove around the track (he is paid to drive and win).. he came in dead last..

WE HAVE TO BLAME THE CREW CHIEF AND CREW..

If you are paid to do ONE THING and you can't do that when needed esp if most of the rest of the team isnt hitting then.. 99% of the world would say.. you are no good to me.. see ya.. no logic would honestly ever connect those dots.. yet some on here think him being paid top notch hitters money and being no where near the TOP hitter in the league is something we should blame on others, or at least say.. well dont look at how bad he did since "everyone" did bad.. sorry but he was SOLELY paid to hit.. NOT SOMETHING he did for over a month on MULTIPLE occasions.. if you were the top engineer at a company and one month you decided on the CAD drawings you would just draw smiley faces, you would be getting fired quickly..

redsbuckeye
08-21-2008, 02:31 PM
2006 August lines:
BP .149 .204 .253 .457
Dunn .157 .333 .265 .598
Ross .185 .281 .389 .670
Hatte .206 .349 .235 .585
Freel .208 .311 .302 .613
EE .214 .299 .286 .585
Hopper .361 .442 .472 .914
Aurilia .344 .385 .511 .897

you meant september for anyone looking those stats up.. because bphils line in august was .330/.377/.604/.981..........

but the fact remains.. 1 player on that list was the "offensive player".. everyone else is paid for both offense and defense..

But lets look at the total salary for the Offense and defense players compared to JUST dunns salary...

O and D...
2006 August lines:
BP.. 300+k..
Ross.. 500k..
Hatte.. 750k..
Freel.. 1.3 mil..
EE.. 335k..
Hopper.. 300+k..
Aurilia.. 1.3 mil..

Totalling.. 4.4 mil..

Dunn alone.. 7.5 mil...


IF you are paying a guy to be the offensive leader.. and he is BELOW average when you need him the most.. how can you blame the rest of the team for not winning?

thats like saying..
W pay jeff gordon to drive our race car.. and since he was playing game boy while he drove around the track (he is paid to drive and win).. he came in dead last..

WE HAVE TO BLAME THE CREW CHIEF AND CREW..

If you are paid to do ONE THING and you can't do that when needed esp if most of the rest of the team isnt hitting then.. 99% of the world would say.. you are no good to me.. see ya.. no logic would honestly ever connect those dots.. yet some on here think him being paid top notch hitters money and being no where near the TOP hitter in the league is something we should blame on others, or at least say.. well dont look at how bad he did since "everyone" did bad.. sorry but he was SOLELY paid to hit.. NOT SOMETHING he did for over a month on MULTIPLE occasions.. if you were the top engineer at a company and one month you decided on the CAD drawings you would just draw smiley faces, you would be getting fired quickly..

I think one could argue that without Dunn's contributions earlier in the year they wouldn't have been in the playoff race to begin with.

All wins are important regardless of the month they came in.

Yes it sucked that Dunn fell apart in September, but a good team needs to be able to overcome that. Considering Dunn is only 1/9th of the offense, something else bottomed out too.

And I don't think the Reds were paying EE, Aurilia or Ross for their defense either, if that's the logic you want to use.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 02:40 PM
EE is GREAT at the fielding part of defense.. the throwing part i think they have been working on since 2005.. Aurilia.. hes no slouch with the glove.. not GG caliber.. but to tell me he is below average at whatever inf position they slotted him at...... and Ross.. has one of the better arms in all of baseball behind the dish, and was arroyos personal catcher that year.. he was not kept on this team for 3 years because of his bat.. it was his arm and being at least average with the bat..

you at least could have said hatte wasnt that great defensively.. that would have been a better argument.. but still not a great one..

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 02:58 PM
Yes, you are right - it was September, not August.

The rest - :sleep:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

redsbuckeye
08-21-2008, 03:09 PM
EE is GREAT at the fielding part of defense.. the throwing part i think they have been working on since 2005.. Aurilia.. hes no slouch with the glove.. not GG caliber.. but to tell me he is below average at whatever inf position they slotted him at...... and Ross.. has one of the better arms in all of baseball behind the dish, and was arroyos personal catcher that year.. he was not kept on this team for 3 years because of his bat.. it was his arm and being at least average with the bat..

you at least could have said hatte wasnt that great defensively.. that would have been a better argument.. but still not a great one..

Actually you're right, Ross was good at catcher (which is making me wonder why he was released this year).

Aurilia and EE were both below average that year. EE may be able to glove a ball but those bad throws still count. Incidentally, him being able to avoid throwing errors may actually upgrade his defense to average to above average status. Phillips, believe it or not, had a bad year that year defensively too.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 04:39 PM
I agree.. he did.. but he also showed flashes of being great soo i was willing to not give up on him after that one year..

Rich Aurilia was not the achilles heel of that team though.. his average defense coupled with his consummate professional hitting approach are welcome additions to a winning team..

redsbuckeye
08-21-2008, 04:46 PM
I agree.. he did.. but he also showed flashes of being great soo i was willing to not give up on him after that one year..

Rich Aurilia was not the achilles heel of that team though.. his average defense coupled with his consummate professional hitting approach are welcome additions to a winning team..

The achilles heel of that team was it's bullpen. Yeah the offense melting down in september didn't help, but I'd say with a good bullpen throughout the year the team would have been able to overcome that offensive dry spell.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 05:12 PM
correct.. and now we have the good bullpen and our defense and starting pitching wavered even more.....

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 05:18 PM
Them Redlegs are struggling to score again today.

Ahhhorsepoo
08-21-2008, 05:30 PM
if they didn't have soo many free swingers things like hit and run and such that they have tried.. might actually work..

at least they are being aggressive on the base path.. something we have never really seen..

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 05:53 PM
if they didn't have soo many free swingers things like hit and run and such that they have tried.. might actually work..


That's the problem with this "Small Ball" concept - you move guys into scoring position - by giving up PRODUCTIVE OUTS - and you have 9 guys batting under .260, OBP's under .320, and OPS under .760 hoping to get them in.

Get a guy on first, and give me 3 chances with "ADAM DUNN" - type OPS, and ISOP, and I'd bet we'd be better off..



at least they are being aggressive on the base path.. something we have never really seen..

You're right - I haven't seen so many CAUGHT STEALINGS and being picked off base as I've seen in this past week or so...

Is it a productive out to get thrown out after you've gotten on base?!?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
08-21-2008, 05:53 PM
Being aggressive on the basepaths... wow! I'd hate to NOT run ourselves out of innings.

757690
08-21-2008, 06:00 PM
I think an argument can be made that Dunn was the most underrated Reds player and the most overrated Reds player.

He was the Reds most productive player when he was here despite what his critics want to argue, but he was not the franchise player that his supporters have would want him to be.

He was able to put up great numbers over the course of the season, but had significant holes in his game that stats simply could not show.

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 06:01 PM
Them Redlegs are struggling to score again today.

I like the two "manufactured" runs the best - two solo HR's.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 06:03 PM
I think an argument can be made that Dunn was the most underrated Reds player and the most overrated Reds player.

He was the Reds most productive player when he was here despite what his critics want to argue, but he was not the franchise player that his supporters have would want him to be.

He was able to put up great numbers over the course of the season, but had significant holes in his game that stats simply could not show.

Not sure how he'd be OVERRATED. Even the Biggest Dunn pundits can admit he has serious flaws. That didn't stop him from being the most Productive Reds player in the last decade. That's not over-rated, that's realistic.

His value will be shown now that he's being utilized correctly, and being surrounded by other OBP/OPS guys - both in front AND behind him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

757690
08-21-2008, 06:25 PM
Not sure how he'd be OVERRATED. Even the Biggest Dunn pundits can admit he has serious flaws. That didn't stop him from being the most Productive Reds player in the last decade. That's not over-rated, that's realistic.

His value will be shown now that he's being utilized correctly, and being surrounded by other OBP/OPS guys - both in front AND behind him.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Anyone who thought he was a franchise player, overrated him. Anyone who thought that he was the player to build a team around, overrated him. I have read plenty of those opinions on both the Deck and the ORG.

Clearly, that does not refer to you, or anyone else who felt that he needed better hitters around him. By definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players.

A good analogy is movie stars. Dunn is like a great supporting actor, one who could win awards as a supporting actor, but who should not be the lead.
He is Robert Duvall, Greg Kinnear or Gene Hackman, not Robert DeNiro, George Clooney or Brad Pitt. He can make a movie better by being in it, but he can't carry it by himself.

There are not a lot of franchise players, maybe 15-20 in the league, so it is no big critique of Dunn that he is not one of them. But there are Reds fans who thought he was one. They overrated him.

redsfanmia
08-21-2008, 08:47 PM
Anyone who thought he was a franchise player, overrated him. Anyone who thought that he was the player to build a team around, overrated him. I have read plenty of those opinions on both the Deck and the ORG.

Clearly, that does not refer to you, or anyone else who felt that he needed better hitters around him. By definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players.

A good analogy is movie stars. Dunn is like a great supporting actor, one who could win awards as a supporting actor, but who should not be the lead.
He is Robert Duvall, Greg Kinnear or Gene Hackman, not Robert DeNiro, George Clooney or Brad Pitt. He can make a movie better by being in it, but he can't carry it by himself.

There are not a lot of franchise players, maybe 15-20 in the league, so it is no big critique of Dunn that he is not one of them. But there are Reds fans who thought he was one. They overrated him.

This is an excellent analogy of Dunn.

BLEEDS
08-21-2008, 08:58 PM
This is an excellent analogy of Dunn.

I disagree.
I think it's the worse analogy ever.
A Franchise player is someone you build around, not SOLELY depend upon to lead a bunch of role players.
Not in Baseball.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Nasty_Boy
08-22-2008, 01:36 AM
Arizona fans are starting to think he's the missing piece. As Bleeds said, the Reds never built around Adam Dunn. On a good offensive team he will put up crazy numbers. The Dbacks could use another bat behind him as it is... He was walked 3 more times tonight, once intentionally.

HTownRedsGuy
08-22-2008, 09:33 AM
Anyone who thought he was a franchise player, overrated him. Anyone who thought that he was the player to build a team around, overrated him. I have read plenty of those opinions on both the Deck and the ORG.

Clearly, that does not refer to you, or anyone else who felt that he needed better hitters around him. By definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players.

A good analogy is movie stars. Dunn is like a great supporting actor, one who could win awards as a supporting actor, but who should not be the lead.
He is Robert Duvall, Greg Kinnear or Gene Hackman, not Robert DeNiro, George Clooney or Brad Pitt. He can make a movie better by being in it, but he can't carry it by himself.

There are not a lot of franchise players, maybe 15-20 in the league, so it is no big critique of Dunn that he is not one of them. But there are Reds fans who thought he was one. They overrated him.

If i am not mistaken Duval was nomianted for 3 Best Actor Academy Awards for leading Roles and won one while Hackman was nominated for 2 Best Actor Academy Awards while winning one. Pitt meanwhile has never been nominated for Best Actor in a leading role.

redsbuckeye
08-22-2008, 09:41 AM
This is an excellent analogy of Dunn.

It's a false analogy. Subjective analysis of a movie is nothing like the mechanics of a baseball game.

BLEEDS
08-22-2008, 10:19 AM
Yep, and ask any NBA fan how the "FRANCHISES" of KobMe Bryant and LeBron James are doing with ONLY role players on their team to support them.

Again, it's the WORST analogy ever.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

cjtenn28
08-22-2008, 10:39 AM
Dunn is loving it and so are the Diamondbacks....


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-dunn082008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

BLEEDS
08-22-2008, 11:56 AM
Dunn is loving it and so are the Diamondbacks....


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ti-dunn082008&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

So, how many times can the same Yahoo linked be posted in this thread anyways?!?!

You should try READING the thread before you post perhaps?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-22-2008, 12:17 PM
yup.. we already covered dunn saying he has NEVER been on a winning team that was this close to a pennant...

bounty37h
08-22-2008, 12:28 PM
Yep, and ask any NBA fan how the "FRANCHISES" of KobMe Bryant and LeBron James are doing with ONLY role players on their team to support them.

Again, it's the WORST analogy ever.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Thats almost as bad as the initial analogy in this case, as the Lakers at least got to the finals, and the Cavs are sniffing the playoffs.

BLEEDS
08-22-2008, 12:34 PM
Thats almost as bad as the initial analogy in this case, as the Lakers at least got to the finals, and the Cavs are sniffing the playoffs.

Well when 60% of the NBA teams make the playoffs, it doesn't really count.

Yes, it is bad, or at least not great, but it makes the point that FRANCHISE players exist, but don't flourish with only role players. KobMe had to have Shaq to win, and Big Bird and a bunch of stinky Euro 3 point guys got him to the playoffs to begin with.

Franchise players can't carry the whole load on TEAM sports, that doesn't mean they aren't Franchise players.

757690 said "by definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players".

That's just flat out, plain WRONG.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

bounty37h
08-22-2008, 12:36 PM
[QUOTE=BLEEDS;1728426]Well when 60% of the NBA teams make the playoffs, it doesn't really count.

Yes, it is bad, or at least not great, but it makes the point that FRANCHISE players exist, but don't flourish with only role players. KobMe had to have Shaq to win, and Big Bird and a bunch of stinky Euro 3 point guys got him to the playoffs to begin with.

Franchise players can't carry the whole load on TEAM sports, that doesn't mean they aren't Franchise players.

757690 said "by definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players".

That's just flat out, plain WRONG.

I agre, it was wrong, and a very bad analogy on his part. As for the rest, Kobe, tell me how my a__ taste.

BLEEDS
08-22-2008, 12:55 PM
I agre, it was wrong, and a very bad analogy on his part. As for the rest, Kobe, tell me how my a__ taste.

Well, I agree on that of course, plus I'm a Celtics fan. :thumbup:

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Ahhhorsepoo
08-22-2008, 01:00 PM
weren't the cavs in the east finals last year?

757690
08-22-2008, 04:10 PM
If i am not mistaken Duval was nomianted for 3 Best Actor Academy Awards for leading Roles and won one while Hackman was nominated for 2 Best Actor Academy Awards while winning one. Pitt meanwhile has never been nominated for Best Actor in a leading role.


It's a false analogy. Subjective analysis of a movie is nothing like the mechanics of a baseball game.

You guys are right. My bad, I was not clear in my analogy. I was not talking about how "good" a movie was, or how "good" an actor was, or how many awards he or the movie might win. I was talking about how much money the movie makes, whether or not it was a financial success.

Very few people decide to see a movie because Duvall, or Hackman are in it. But plenty of people (not me, however) will see a movie just because Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise are in it.

Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise can carry a movie financially, while Robert Duvall and Gene Hackman need bigger stars in order to make sure the movie they are in is a financial success.

Similarly, players like Adam Dunn and Jim Edmonds can not expect their teams to win if they are the best players. They need at least one better player on their team for them to make the playoffs. Players like Albert Pujols and Chipper Jones can lead their teams to the playoffs without better players on their team, with just supporting or role players on their team. They can be the best player on the team and the team can still win.

I did not make myself clear, I apologize.

757690
08-22-2008, 04:54 PM
Well when 60% of the NBA teams make the playoffs, it doesn't really count.

Yes, it is bad, or at least not great, but it makes the point that FRANCHISE players exist, but don't flourish with only role players. KobMe had to have Shaq to win, and Big Bird and a bunch of stinky Euro 3 point guys got him to the playoffs to begin with.

Franchise players can't carry the whole load on TEAM sports, that doesn't mean they aren't Franchise players.

757690 said "by definition, a franchise player is one who doesn't need other great hitters around him. He is the anchor and you build the team around him with role players".

That's just flat out, plain WRONG.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

You have not addressed why you think my analogy is the worst analogy ever, you have only argued (poorly) that my definition of a franchise player is wrong.

In order to show that my analogy is the worst ever, you need to show how the relationship between lead actors, supporting actors and the success of a movie is different from the relationship between franchise baseball players, role players and the success of their teams.

Granted, changing the definition of a franchise player has an effect on the that relationship, but even if I got that definition completely wrong, that does not make the analogy invalid.

Anyway, let me defend my definition of a franchise player.

A franchise player is a player who can clearly be the best player on his team, and have that team make the playoffs. He can have other great players on his team, but he does not need them. If a player needs better players on his team in order to win, than he is not a franchise player. Again, franchise players are very rare, so it not a criticism of Dunn that he is not one, just a reality, one that you admit to be true.

George Brett, Chipper Jones, Kirby Puckett, Tony Gwynn, are some recent examples. These guys had other very good players on their teams, but they clearly were the best players on their teams, and they led their teams to the playoffs for many years.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by role player, a role player can be a very good, even an all-star, but a role player is not, or at least, should not be the best player on his team

Most teams like to have more than one franchise player, and naturally, those that can afford more than one do win more often, but a true franchise player does not need a player either as good or better than him in order to win. Similarly, a true movie star does not need anyone else on the marque in order for the movie to make money.

redsfanmia
08-22-2008, 07:26 PM
I disagree.
I think it's the worse analogy ever.
A Franchise player is someone you build around, not SOLELY depend upon to lead a bunch of role players.
Not in Baseball.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

I just dont think a team can win with Dunn consistantly being the best player and that does not make him a franchise player IMO. If you were starting a franchise for next season who would be your first few picks? Your first 15? Your first 30? Would Dunn be in the top 30? Not mine and to me that makes a franchise player.

Nasty_Boy
08-23-2008, 08:35 AM
He would be in the top 30 hitters.

redsfanmia
08-23-2008, 02:21 PM
He would be in the top 30 hitters.

Not so sure about that, not in the top 30 of all players though.