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View Full Version : Whats the worst trade in Reds history?



tommycash
08-20-2008, 02:37 PM
I was watching the game last night and Thom B. brought up the O'Neil for Roberto Bobby Kelly trade as one of the worst Red's trades ever. Recent trades that are still in process of being evaluated (i.e. the Dunn deal, Griffey to White Sox deal, Kearns deal, and especially the Volquez/Hamilton deal) are not to be discussed because they need to be evaluated over at least a 3-5 year period. What do ou think is the worst trade in Red's history? You can even break it down into the worst trades of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's. I think the Reds made a big mistake in trading O'Neil (as everyone else does too), but is it the worst?

PTI (pti)
08-20-2008, 02:44 PM
Milt Pappas-Frank Robinson.





And then there's the rest.

redsfanfalcon
08-20-2008, 02:44 PM
The Frank Robinson trade?

redsfanfalcon
08-20-2008, 02:45 PM
Milt Pappas-Frank Robinson.





And then there's the rest.

Looks like we posted at the same time!

tommycash
08-20-2008, 02:49 PM
Ok. I should've said that one in my intro too. Shows where my head is. Lets say this. After the Robinson trade, what is the worst trade in Reds history?

mroby85
08-20-2008, 02:50 PM
Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez ;) lol jk.

berryluther
08-20-2008, 02:54 PM
kONERKO

tommycash
08-20-2008, 02:57 PM
:thumbup:
Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez ;) lol jk.

HalMorrisRules
08-20-2008, 03:06 PM
Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie. Hands down. No debate. Mathewson went on to have a hall of fame career, becoming one of the famous "First Five" players to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Rusie, who was a fine pitcher in his own right, was at the end of his career and appeared in only 3 games for the Reds.

superred
08-20-2008, 03:50 PM
the frank robinson trade definately

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 04:05 PM
The Dunn trade will be mentioned with Robinson-Pappas and the O'Neill-Kelley trade when its all said and done.

redsbuckeye
08-20-2008, 04:19 PM
For all the people who complained about the Kearns/Lopez trade (myself included) it's turned out to look like the Reds made out pretty good.

texasdave
08-20-2008, 04:27 PM
Most overlooked bad trade in Cincinnati Reds' history? Jeff Montgomery for Van Snider.
Who is Jeff Montgomery? He is a right-handed reliever who went on to have a decade of success for the KC Royals in the '90s. He made 3 all-star teams and collected over 300 saves. Nice. And who is Van Snider? Good question.

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 04:29 PM
The Dunn trade will be mentioned with Robinson-Pappas and the O'Neill-Kelley trade when its all said and done.

Ummm no.

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 04:31 PM
The O'Neill for Kelly trade was a wash, O'Neill would not have been the player he was with the Yankees for the Reds. The Reds wanted O'Neill to be a power hitter and he would have hit .250 with 25 bombs a year here while in New York they just let him play and he did what he did.

keeganbrick
08-20-2008, 04:38 PM
The Dunn trade will be mentioned with Robinson-Pappas and the O'Neill-Kelley trade when its all said and done.

lol, have you missed the 100 threads explaining this....

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 04:50 PM
The O'Neill for Kelly trade was a wash, O'Neill would not have been the player he was with the Yankees for the Reds. The Reds wanted O'Neill to be a power hitter and he would have hit .250 with 25 bombs a year here while in New York they just let him play and he did what he did.


ummm... no

IowaRed
08-20-2008, 05:06 PM
Christy Mathewson for Amos Rusie. Hands down. No debate. Mathewson went on to have a hall of fame career, becoming one of the famous "First Five" players to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Rusie, who was a fine pitcher in his own right, was at the end of his career and appeared in only 3 games for the Reds.

Matthewson was a cousin of the Reds' own Jack Billingham according to baseballreference.com

Orodle
08-20-2008, 05:11 PM
Especially the Hamilton for Volquez deal? You cant say thats one of the worst deals ever when you get a pitcher like Edison.

O'Neill and Robinson are horrible deals. The Kearns/Lopez deal was never a horrible deal even when it happend...people just get too attached to their players.

tommycash
08-20-2008, 05:26 PM
Especially the Hamilton for Volquez deal? You cant say thats one of the worst deals ever when you get a pitcher like Edison.

O'Neill and Robinson are horrible deals. The Kearns/Lopez deal was never a horrible deal even when it happend...people just get too attached to their players.

I never said they were terrible trades, I meant that they should not be talked about because they can't be called bad trades, or they are too early to tell trades. The Volquez deal was a good deal IMO.

Donder
08-20-2008, 05:28 PM
IMO the Matthewson trade was worse than the Robinson trade (in retrospect, all things considered), at least we got Robby for half of his career.

markymark69
08-20-2008, 05:34 PM
Tony Perez to the Expos following 1976 for Woody Fryman and Dale Murray.

RedsFanInMobile
08-20-2008, 06:48 PM
Tony Perez to the Expos following 1976 for Woody Fryman and Dale Murray.

This is the one I was going to mention as well. That trade never made sense to me.

mroby85
08-20-2008, 06:55 PM
I was joking about the volquez/hamilton deal, the j/k means just kidding.

tommycash
08-20-2008, 07:07 PM
I was joking about the volquez/hamilton deal, the j/k means just kidding.

I couldn't tell if he was talking to me or you.

Anyway, I know it wasn't a big deal at the time, but in hindsight this trade was not good for the Reds. It is not the worst trade ever but John Wetteland and someone else for Ruskin, Dave Martinez, and Willie Greene. Looking back I can see why the Reds did it, but it did not fair to well for the Reds in looking at what we could have had. Do you know that 14 out the top 50 all time saves leaders were with the Reds Organization at one time or another.

Hoffman
Lee Smith
Franco
Reardon
Randy Myers
Wetteland
Todd Jones
Jeff Montgomery
Jeff Shaw
Cordero
Guardado
Jeff Russell
Kent Tekulve
Danny Graves

btw, Jeff Brantley is 54th

Sorry that was off topic but it was something I was interested in.

Manut Bol
08-20-2008, 07:23 PM
Ummm no.

Oh, you didn't know? Adam Dunn is a definite HOFer. Yeah, man.:rolleyes:

redsfanmia
08-20-2008, 07:40 PM
Oh, you didn't know? Adam Dunn is a definite HOFer. Yeah, man.:rolleyes:

Oh yeah and he is going to sign a 120 million dollar contract too.

Revering4Blue
08-20-2008, 07:56 PM
(77)Mike Caldwell to the Brewers for two lifetime minor leaguers.

(82-83)George Foster to the Mets. Ken Griffey to the Yankees. Charlie Liebrandt to the Royals.

The Reds didn't receive one significant contributor in either deal.

(95)David Wells to the Orioles for Curtis Goodwin and Tovin Valdez.

Bowden's worst trade...hands down.

(02-03)The collective bare-minimum return for the following players:

Todd Walker

Aaron Boone

Scott Williamson

Gabe White

Felix Heredia

Scott Sullivan and cash

Revering4Blue
08-20-2008, 08:02 PM
Also, the original Neagle to the Yankees deal in 2000 sucked eggs.

It just goes to show you that trading for prospects is a risky proposition. Hopefully, the Dunn trade will work out,
but I have my doubts.

tommycash
08-20-2008, 08:09 PM
Also, the original Neagle to the Yankees deal in 2000 sucked eggs.

It just goes to show you that trading for prospects is a risky proposition. Hopefully, the Dunn trade will work out,
but I have my doubts.

You know a lot of major league stars for prospect deals work the other way too don't you know.

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 08:44 PM
Oh, you didn't know? Adam Dunn is a definite HOFer. Yeah, man.:rolleyes:

It's certainly not out of the question.

And once again, he denied wanting 100+ million dollars. You guys seem to have blinders on, or you only hear what you want to hear.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-20-2008, 08:59 PM
The Dunn trade will be mentioned with Robinson-Pappas and the O'Neill-Kelley trade when its all said and done.

Trading a player away that had two months on his contract in a season where the team is fighting to stay out of the cellar. Man THATS THE WORST EVER! :rolleyes:

BlastFurnace
08-20-2008, 09:21 PM
Tony Perez for Dale Murray and Woody Fryman. I still think the Reds would have won 3 in a row had they kept Tony. Wasn't this Dick Wagner who made this awful trade. Dan Driessen, IMO, was put in a bad position as well to try to replace Perez. Perez was their leader....and they traded him.

graveyard
08-20-2008, 11:09 PM
Driessan statistically replaced Perez. Woody had an awful start, most people forget he had an arthretic elbow as bad as koufaxex. He had won his last three starts and then sparky put him in the bullpen so he came back to ewing. He said before that the clubhouse was a mess and he didnt like playing there.

Stephenk29
08-20-2008, 11:40 PM
John Franco has to be up there (after Frank Robinson of course). I mean the guy only had over 400 saves.

Can we get some sort of rule where every topic doesn't turn into an Adam Dunn extended argument?

tommycash
08-20-2008, 11:45 PM
John Franco has to be up there (after Frank Robinson of course). I mean the guy only had over 400 saves.

Can we get some sort of rule where every topic doesn't turn into an Adam Dunn extended argument?

It either ends up an argument on Dunn, Hamilton, or BA vs OBP

Nasty_Boy
08-20-2008, 11:48 PM
Trading a player away that had two months on his contract in a season where the team is fighting to stay out of the cellar. Man THATS THE WORST EVER! :rolleyes:

In 20 years nobody will remember or care that he had 2 months left on his contract. All they will say is why did the Reds trade a 28 year old that ended up hitting 550+ HRs.

Stephenk29
08-20-2008, 11:50 PM
Cause it all about the Benjamins. If you're going to think that way then trading A-ROD is easily the dumbest thing in the history of man.

dougflynn23
08-21-2008, 01:49 AM
It's not the worst trade, but two very bad ones from Bob Howsam in the '70's were Hal McRae to Kansas City for Roger Nelson & Richie Scheinblum and Ross Grimsley to Baltimore for Merv Rettenmund.

Betterread
08-21-2008, 02:00 AM
Not protecting Trevor Hoffman for the 1993 expansion draft was incomprehensible.
Wells to Baltimore for the leadoff failure goodwin and change was another total disaster.

NarrowStairs
08-21-2008, 05:59 AM
I don't think the Griffey "trade" should be lumped into a discussion like this. That was obviously a salary dump where we weren't even looking to get anything much in return.

tommycash
08-21-2008, 09:06 AM
I don't think the Griffey "trade" should be lumped into a discussion like this. That was obviously a salary dump where we weren't even looking to get anything much in return.

Who lumped the Griffey trade in. All I said was that it really shouldn't be discussed in this thread along with the Dunn trade, Kearns trade, and the Hamilton/Volquez trade.

BTW, the Griffey deal wasn't a salary dump, it was a "we are not bringing him back next year, so lets get anything we can for him" deal. What salary did we dump. We have paid almost all of his salary.

flash
08-21-2008, 10:59 AM
Pappas is one of the most maligned pitchers in major league history because of the trade and his admitted tanking fastballs to Roger Maris in the 154th game of 1961. However

He won as many games as Don Drysdale (209) even though he pitched on much weaker teams. He is in MLB's top 100 in wins.

He was the only pitcher to shut out the Reds in 1970

He did pitch a no-hitter in 1972.

If you look at the American League from 1955-1965, outside of Whitey Ford he was the best pitcher. Career-wise, he was probably the best pitcher in the American league at the time. I admit Minnesota had a pretty good staff with Chance, Grant and Katt. The only problem with the trade was that the Reds should have gone for Jim Palmer or Dave McNally straight up. But who knew at the time those two were going to be so good.

I believe the Mathewson trade was the worst. Trading Trevor Hoffman has to rank right up their with Franco. The Perez trade cost the Reds the third straight WC with or without Driessan's stats. The Reds might have been able to get Seaver earlier had they offered up Driessan.

Fon Duc Tow
08-21-2008, 12:07 PM
The O'Neill for Kelly trade was a wash, O'Neill would not have been the player he was with the Yankees for the Reds. The Reds wanted O'Neill to be a power hitter and he would have hit .250 with 25 bombs a year here while in New York they just let him play and he did what he did.


Crazy idea, isn't it? Letting a player just relax and do what he does best...

And then, there's the Cincinanti Reds. :beerme:

Rob387
08-21-2008, 01:23 PM
I couldn't tell if he was talking to me or you.

Do you know that 14 out the top 50 all time saves leaders were with the Reds Organization at one time or another.

Hoffman
Lee Smith
Franco
Reardon
Randy Myers
Wetteland
Todd Jones
Jeff Montgomery
Jeff Shaw
Cordero
Guardado
Jeff Russell
Kent Tekulve
Danny Graves

btw, Jeff Brantley is 54th

Sorry that was off topic but it was something I was interested in.

B.J. Ryan will probably end up on that list soon too.

redsbuckeye
08-21-2008, 03:37 PM
It either ends up an argument on Dunn, Hamilton, or BA vs OBP

It's the Redszone version of Godwin's Law.

ChatterRed
08-21-2008, 04:43 PM
Who did we trade John Wetteland too? At one point, it seemed like the Reds had a ton of quality relief pitchers come up through the system they traded away, and then they became closers for other teams. Atleast it seemed that way.

ChatterRed
08-21-2008, 04:46 PM
B.J. Ryan will probably end up on that list soon too.


I just now saw this post. Oops. I guess I was correct.

BlastFurnace
08-21-2008, 05:41 PM
Who did we trade John Wetteland too? At one point, it seemed like the Reds had a ton of quality relief pitchers come up through the system they traded away, and then they became closers for other teams. Atleast it seemed that way.

I know Wettelend came to us in the Eric Davis trade from the Dodgers. We traded him to Montreal for some CF named Dave Martinez. The Expos then traded Wettelend to the Yankees.

LouisvilleCARDS
08-21-2008, 07:30 PM
In 20 years nobody will remember or care that he had 2 months left on his contract. All they will say is why did the Reds trade a 28 year old that ended up hitting 550+ HRs.


I think most would remember we won nothing while he was here. It might be a little different if he was traded after a few playoff years.

gedred69
08-21-2008, 09:06 PM
Lots of good points, observations. redsfanmania, hit on the O'neil/Kelly trade, the key being the Reds wanted O'Neil to be a power hitter. That, was Lou's fault. He never understood O'neil was a hitter who happened to be able to hit scary HRs, (not Dunnesque skyscrapers, but line drives that sent fans scattering in RF seats). I know, I used to sit out there, and he hit it so hard sometimes it was more like INCOMING!! rather than a souvenir. Robinson? Another un-imaginably horrible deal. I also agree fans get too attached to their favorites, and fail to realize this game is a business, and being successful is all that matters. But, Christy Matthewson was one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Isn't he like, tied for 3rd in career wins?

Fon Duc Tow
08-21-2008, 10:10 PM
Well I see all the ones I can think of already listed except one.

Trading Millions of Dollars for Dusty Baker.

tommycash
08-21-2008, 11:15 PM
I just now saw this post. Oops. I guess I was correct.

Correct about what? Is this in reference to your point that the Reds seem to have a lot of good relievers that go on to be stars for other teams?

dougflynn23
08-21-2008, 11:36 PM
I know Wettelend came to us in the Eric Davis trade from the Dodgers. We traded him to Montreal for some CF named Dave Martinez. The Expos then traded Wettelend to the Yankees. ;) I remember being very excited when the Reds traded a broken down Eric Davis to LA for Belcher and Wetteland. I also remember being depressed when they flipped Wetteland for dave Martinez, Scott Ruskin and Willie Greene.

Oxilon
08-21-2008, 11:40 PM
Not protecting Trevor Hoffman for the 1993 expansion draft was incomprehensible.
Wells to Baltimore for the leadoff failure goodwin and change was another total disaster.

Hoffman was a freaking shortstop when he was with the Reds. Nobody knew he was going to convert to closer and end up being one of the top 5 closers of all time. That was just a good pickup for the Padres that really worked out for them, not so much the Reds fault.

tommycash
08-22-2008, 09:10 AM
Hoffman was a freaking shortstop when he was with the Reds. Nobody knew he was going to convert to closer and end up being one of the top 5 closers of all time. That was just a good pickup for the Padres that really worked out for them, not so much the Reds fault.

Hoffman was drafted as a shortstop but the Reds converted him to a pitcher, and a damn good one so it seems:

"Originally drafted by the Cincinnati Reds as a shortstop after leading the University of Arizona team in hitting in 1988 with a .371 batting average, 35 points better than teammate J.T. Snow in 1989, Hoffman was converted to a pitcher in 1991 after batting .212 with 23 RBI in 103 games while playing short and third for Single-A Charleston (then a Cincinnati Reds minor league affiliate). The move, suggested by Charleston manager Jim Lett, was so successful that in his first season on the mound, Hoffman threw a total of 47⅔ innings at Cedar Rapids and at Double-A Chattanooga, and had a 1.89 ERA and 75 strikeouts."

This is from his Wikipedia biography.

Kingspoint
08-22-2008, 09:21 AM
Trading Junior for Cameron and handcuffing the organization for the next 7 years.

levydl
08-22-2008, 11:12 AM
Trading Junior for Cameron and handcuffing the organization for the next 7 years.

Great perspective.

It was Jr. that handcuffed the organization, right? Not the owner that said he'd spend the money to put a team around him.

Revering4Blue
08-22-2008, 11:45 AM
Great perspective.

It was Jr. that handcuffed the organization, right? Not the owner that said he'd spend the money to put a team around him.

I wouldn't call the Griffey trade a "bad" trade. I wouldn't call the Dempster trade a "bad" trade, either. In both cases, the Reds targeted proven veterens who wound up injured most of the time.
The right targets, just plain bad luck.

Also, I'd classify the Ryan for Guzman trade as a
live now/pay later trade--a small-scaled version of the Smoltz/Alexander and Anderson/Bagwell deals.

dougflynn23
08-27-2008, 09:10 PM
Trading Junior for Cameron and handcuffing the organization for the next 7 years. :confused: The real shame of that deal was the fact that it was held up by several days as the Reds refused[B] to include Pokey Reese and [B]insisted that it be Mike Cameron instead.

Kingspoint
08-27-2008, 09:24 PM
Great perspective.

It was Jr. that handcuffed the organization, right? Not the owner that said he'd spend the money to put a team around him.

Of course it wasn't Junior. It was the owner who made the trade. Junior had nothing to do with it.

akron3344
09-03-2008, 01:14 AM
the trade of Tommy Harper for George Culver

fitz1
09-03-2008, 05:59 PM
PTI, you took mine! Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas was horrible.

akron3344
09-03-2008, 06:34 PM
bob johnson for art shamsky was disastrous