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cincrazy
08-22-2008, 12:58 PM
The Reds dipped in with high-priced closer Francisco Cordero and high-priced manager Dusty Baker, and some are expecting them to be even bigger players in the free-agent market this winter.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/jon_heyman/08/22/heyman.bowden/index.html

princeton
08-22-2008, 01:30 PM
dip further wouldn't mean scrape bottom, would it? :eek:

BCubb2003
08-22-2008, 01:49 PM
Dipping any further in the market would get you delisted.

Spring~Fields
08-22-2008, 02:12 PM
dip further wouldn't mean scrape bottom, would it? :eek:

Oh my god are they going to add another large city team to the central division? :all_cohol

Sabo Fan
08-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Unlikely to really dive head first I would think, but maybe times are changing. What this team could use is a power bat/high OBP type. Seems like Adam Dunn would be the perfect fit. How ironic.

Benihana
08-22-2008, 03:10 PM
Teixiera and Sabathia are the only real names that I could see qualifying as "bigger than Cordero." Unless they were talking about an injured wing, like Sheets or Burnett...

Can't imagine they'd go after Tex after signing Alonso and trading Dunn. I guess I could see the latter (hopefully Sheets rather than Burnett) if they traded Arroyo and some prospects for Holliday. Then we WOULD be contending in 2009, no doubt.

OldXOhio
08-22-2008, 03:12 PM
Unlikely to really dive head first I would think, but maybe times are changing. What this team could use is a power bat/high OBP type. Seems like Adam Dunn would be the perfect fit. How ironic.

Have too much weight and you will dip far too fast. Better shed Dusty beforehand.

OnBaseMachine
08-22-2008, 05:38 PM
While there is no way they will get him, I wouldn't be surprised if the Reds make a run at Sabathia. There was a blurb from Baseball Prospectus a while back that mentioned baseball insiders believe the Reds will be a darkhorse candidate to land Sabathia this offseason. Again, I don't see it happening but it was interesting to read that and then read little piece.

Superdude
08-22-2008, 07:25 PM
Sabathia threw 130 pitches in his last start. I hope we do a detailed physical before we sink 100 million into that guy.

RedLegSuperStar
08-22-2008, 07:30 PM
Unlikely to really dive head first I would think, but maybe times are changing. What this team could use is a power bat/high OBP type. Seems like Adam Dunn would be the perfect fit. How ironic.

Dunn was on the roster for 7 consecutive seasons and not once did the Reds finish over .500. To Dunn's defense he was always batted 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th and never really in the 3 or 4 hole which I think suits him. Another point to be made is he never had the right mix of pitching or hitters or both during that time. But to say he would be a perfect fit on this team is where I can't seem to agree. This team needs 3 Adam Dunns and at least 3 of them to hit around .275. Dunn's price tag is a major reason he was moved which is a major reason they will look for a cheaper alternative come 2009.

redsfan4445
08-22-2008, 07:37 PM
this was posted on SI. per traderumours.com

""Some are expecting" the Reds to be big players in free agency this year. The Reds figure to be in the market for catching and outfield help. Manny Ramirez would be interesting."

I cant Manny here....

GAC
08-22-2008, 07:51 PM
some.... MAY be expecting it. But we'll see.

Ain't no way they are interested in C.C..... or likewise is he interested in the Reds. Thats a pipe dream IMO.

Next year they will be paying almost 36 mil (collectively) on three of their pitchers (Harang, Arroyo, Cordero). That's nearing almost half your yearly payroll.

So they then are going to invest 20+ mil/yr on a C.C., sinking almost 60 mil of a possible 80 mil payroll on 4 guys, while hamstringing them in being able to invest in other critical areas?

Don't see it happening. Not in this youth movement.

Sabo Fan
08-23-2008, 11:04 AM
Dunn was on the roster for 7 consecutive seasons and not once did the Reds finish over .500. To Dunn's defense he was always batted 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th and never really in the 3 or 4 hole which I think suits him. Another point to be made is he never had the right mix of pitching or hitters or both during that time. But to say he would be a perfect fit on this team is where I can't seem to agree. This team needs 3 Adam Dunns and at least 3 of them to hit around .275. Dunn's price tag is a major reason he was moved which is a major reason they will look for a cheaper alternative come 2009.

My point was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but it does seem like a power hitting OFer is now one of this teams most pressing needs (just another one to add to the ever-lengthening list). I am continually amazed at the lengths this organization goes to in order to solve the wrong problems. Sure you may not feel that Dunn is worth what the market may give him, but then you turn around and could theoretically go after a Ramirez or a Texieria to fill that spot and pay them way more money? Brilliant.

The only way this team can actually convince me that they're ready to be players in free agency would be to jettison Arroyo. Free up that cash and then suddenly you actually have a legitimate amount of money to play with and could do some good. The problem is that there really aren't any soon to be free agents that I think would be a good fit here.

buckeyenut
08-23-2008, 11:16 AM
If he finishes off strong, you might be able to deal Arroyo and get a decent bat for him if you send him to Texas or Colorado or somewhere else with a lot of offense. If you do something like Arroyo for Adkins (3B from COL, EE moves to LF) as principles like someone else has suggested I think, then you might have the payroll room next year to offer CC something like 7 yr 140M or 4 yr 100M (take out a big insurance policy either way).

Now, we let Dickerson bat leadoff and play CF and we use any leftover payroll or trading chips to find a SS and C and we're in good shape. JJ Hardy would be my target at SS, although getting MIL to move him will be tough. You could also grab a catcher from Texas for Arroyo and leave EE at third, which would be much easier to deal with grabbing an OF.

Jpup
08-23-2008, 12:04 PM
Manny Ramirez is a great player, but I don't want the Reds to sign him unless they had a bunch more to go with him. He's a moron too.

Reds4Life
08-23-2008, 12:22 PM
We just traded an aging, expensive, outfielder, why on earth would we sign Manny?

Blitz Dorsey
08-23-2008, 02:26 PM
I'll believe this when I see it (Reds becoming a big player in FA this offseason). And even if the money is there, good luck getting a top-shelf starting pitcher to want to come pitch in a bandbox like GABP.

Why does everyone want to get rid of Arroyo? No, he's not great, but he's a consistent innings-eater who is going to battle and get double-digit wins. Again, not great, but I think we'd miss a guy like that if he was gone. He's overpaid, no question, but the Reds need to add to their current rotation, not take guys out of it. I like Arroyo as a No. 4 or No. 5 starter. As difficult as it will be, the Reds need to land a good starter in FA or trade for one which would leave a rotation of 1. Volquez, 2. Harang or FA, 3. FA or Harang, 4. Cueto and 5. Arroyo... with Owings competing for a spot. And you need six starting pitchers that you are confident in because there is going to be at least one guy in your top five that either gets hurt or doesn't produce. The Reds need to shoot for 6 starting pitchers they are comfortable with and if all six of them pan out, that's a problem you want to have.

I'm sure the Reds will go after somewhat of a big bat too in FA, I'm just not convinced it will be one of the really big guns. Course, if pitchers don't want to play at GABP, shouldn't FA hitters want to come here?

lollipopcurve
08-23-2008, 03:05 PM
CC or bust.

Highlifeman21
08-23-2008, 05:15 PM
We just traded an aging, expensive, outfielder, why on earth would we sign Manny?

B/c he's less aged, duh.

Manny can still rake, whereas KGJ, not so much.

Reds4Life
08-23-2008, 05:19 PM
B/c he's less aged, duh.

Manny can still rake, whereas KGJ, not so much.

He's also more expensive, and that money can be better spent than on a headcase.

RedLegSuperStar
08-23-2008, 06:17 PM
I think Blitz hit the nail on the head. If you sign a top of the rotation pitcher then that makes a Homer Bailey, Matt Maloney, or Daryl Thompson more expendable for perhaps that outfield bat or a starting catcher. I wouldn,t mind Manny.. But not for the amount of years he is going to want. I'd try to get Holliday from the Rockies.

Krusty
08-23-2008, 06:33 PM
If I'm Walt, I make a trade for OF Holliday and catcher Iannetta. Don't know who I would give up but one of the players would be Arroyo.

With the departure of Arroyo, I would look at Ben Sheets as a possible replacement.

RedEye
08-23-2008, 07:07 PM
If I'm Walt, I make a trade for OF Holliday and catcher Iannetta. Don't know who I would give up but one of the players would be Arroyo.

With the departure of Arroyo, I would look at Ben Sheets as a possible replacement.

Sheets to me is like Harden... he's great, but he's usually injured. I'd feel really worried about signing him to a big deal because he'd probably miss half his starts. C.C. is a much better target IMO, especially since we're probably talking similar contracts at the end of the day.

Benihana
08-23-2008, 11:37 PM
If I'm Walt, I make a trade for OF Holliday and catcher Iannetta. Don't know who I would give up but one of the players would be Arroyo.

With the departure of Arroyo, I would look at Ben Sheets as a possible replacement.

I like it, but I think you'd have to give up Arroyo, Votto, Bailey and Thompson (or Valaika) to score a return like that. Problem is if you sign Sheets, no way will you have enough to sign Holliday after 2009.

Will M
08-23-2008, 11:54 PM
I'll believe this when I see it (Reds becoming a big player in FA this offseason). And even if the money is there, good luck getting a top-shelf starting pitcher to want to come pitch in a bandbox like GABP.

Why does everyone want to get rid of Arroyo? No, he's not great, but he's a consistent innings-eater who is going to battle and get double-digit wins. Again, not great, but I think we'd miss a guy like that if he was gone. He's overpaid, no question, but the Reds need to add to their current rotation, not take guys out of it. I like Arroyo as a No. 4 or No. 5 starter. As difficult as it will be, the Reds need to land a good starter in FA or trade for one which would leave a rotation of 1. Volquez, 2. Harang or FA, 3. FA or Harang, 4. Cueto and 5. Arroyo... with Owings competing for a spot. And you need six starting pitchers that you are confident in because there is going to be at least one guy in your top five that either gets hurt or doesn't produce. The Reds need to shoot for 6 starting pitchers they are comfortable with and if all six of them pan out, that's a problem you want to have.

I'm sure the Reds will go after somewhat of a big bat too in FA, I'm just not convinced it will be one of the really big guns. Course, if pitchers don't want to play at GABP, shouldn't FA hitters want to come here?

I think CC is too expensive but a guy like Lowe or Burnett could work.
As was pointed out this would free up guys like Homer and Maloney for trade bait.

The Reds needs are C, SS and 3B. There are not really any good FA options at these positions but there are several free agent pitchers that are good.

One thing to note re Arroyo is that he only has two years left on his deal whereas I have read that Oliver Perez wants at least 4/$48M. CC will want a Zito like deal. Lots of money and lots of years for a free agent pitcher.

RedEye
08-25-2008, 02:04 AM
I think CC is too expensive but a guy like Lowe or Burnett could work.
As was pointed out this would free up guys like Homer and Maloney for trade bait.

The Reds needs are C, SS and 3B. There are not really any good FA options at these positions but there are several free agent pitchers that are good.

One thing to note re Arroyo is that he only has two years left on his deal whereas I have read that Oliver Perez wants at least 4/$48M. CC will want a Zito like deal. Lots of money and lots of years for a free agent pitcher.

Not a big EdE fan? Or are you just implying he should be moved to OF?

Will M
08-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Not a big EdE fan? Or are you just implying he should be moved to OF?

EE can't play 3B (IMO). Therefore he goes to LF or goes elsewhere.

Az Red
08-25-2008, 11:07 AM
If he finishes off strong, you might be able to deal Arroyo and get a decent bat for him if you send him to Texas or Colorado or somewhere else with a lot of offense.

I predict Arroyo gets traded before the waiver deadline. His salary will scare off non-contenders and someone in a playoff push will claim him.

Vada Pinson Fan
08-25-2008, 01:49 PM
The info that I get (from Milwaukee locals) is Milwaukee will sign one of Sabathia or Sheets. Not both. The opinion is that Sabathia is the one and the Brewers will not be "caught short" the way they were when Cordero signed with the Reds.

Looking at that premise, would any potential free agent (Sheets?) want to come to a team such as the Reds with eight straight losing seasons and a possible last place finish this year and without the star power of Griffey or Dunn on this team? Remember, Cordero signed with the Reds because (not only the extreme $$$$) of his perception the Reds would contend for the division title and maybe more. Not so with the free agents to be this off-season.
Sure money talks but it looks much greener in at least 22 other cities.

BRM
08-25-2008, 01:50 PM
From MLBTradeRumors:



An executive who knows C.C. Sabathia well told Heyman the pitcher's first choice in free agency is the Giants. It's not a great fit, as starting pitching is the Giants' strength and Sabathia would add another $100MM+ contract to their rotation. The Yankees are considered the offseason frontrunners for Sabathia, though former teammate Casey Blake sees C.C. in Dodger blue.

NJReds
08-25-2008, 01:59 PM
The Giants would have to shed Zito's contract, and even though he's pitched a little bit better lately, I can't see anyone taking on that deal.

Falls City Beer
08-25-2008, 02:00 PM
The Reds aren't getting Sabathia. It's ridiculous to even discuss it.

RedEye
08-25-2008, 02:03 PM
Does anyone else feel like a Burrell signing would be the ultimate slap in Adam Dunn's face?

Vada Pinson Fan
08-25-2008, 02:25 PM
From MLBTradeRumors:An executive who knows C.C. Sabathia well told Heyman the pitcher's first choice in free agency is the Giants. It's not a great fit, as starting pitching is the Giants' strength and Sabathia would add another $100MM+ contract to their rotation. The Yankees are considered the offseason frontrunners for Sabathia, though former teammate Casey Blake sees C.C. in Dodger blue.

It would be a homecoming for Sabathia. He was born in Vallejo, California. Northeast of San Francisco. If not for all the multi-millions lost on the Barry Zito fiasco, the Giants would surely make a run at C.C. but I doubt they can afford both.

Perhaps the Reds can look at the Giants as trading partners if the Giants want to lower payroll to possibly take on a huge salary again such a Sabathia's. I'd love to see Tim Lincecum as a Cincinnati Red but that's a pipedream, at least for now.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 02:30 PM
As great as Sabathia is, if I were the Giants I would pass on signing him. They already have a talented young pitching staff in Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, and Jonathan Sanchez, and they have other very talented arms in the minors like Madison Bumgarner (1.45 ERA 20 BB/155 K ratio in 136.2 innings!), Tim Alderson, and Henry Sosa. The Giants need to save their money and acquire some bats because if they had any offense at all right now they would probably be in first place in the NL West.

NJReds
08-25-2008, 02:43 PM
The Reds aren't getting Sabathia. It's ridiculous to even discuss it.

I wouldn't give a 290 pound pitcher a seven year deal, and that's probably what he's going to be asking for. If Zito got 7 yrs., $125, what will CC ask for? All the big money clubs will be looking for him as well.

Highlifeman21
08-25-2008, 04:55 PM
Does anyone else feel like a Burrell signing would be the ultimate slap in Adam Dunn's face?

Less production, worse defense, and probably a more expensive price tag than it would have cost to keep Dunn?

Yeah, that might come across as a slap in The Donkey's face.

Cedric
08-25-2008, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't give a 290 pound pitcher a seven year deal, and that's probably what he's going to be asking for. If Zito got 7 yrs., $125, what will CC ask for? All the big money clubs will be looking for him as well.

CC has a body that should protect his arm. He also has great mechanics and isn't much of a major injury risk.

He's not coming here. But I'd do jumping jacks if he did. The guy is a warrior and probably the best pitcher in the game right now.

RedEye
08-25-2008, 06:31 PM
Less production, worse defense, and probably a more expensive price tag than it would have cost to keep Dunn?

Yeah, that might come across as a slap in The Donkey's face.

Sounds like exactly the kind of move this FO will get behind. After all, Burrell does hit for slightly better average... :rolleyes:

RedEye
08-25-2008, 06:35 PM
CC has a body that should protect his arm. He also has great mechanics and isn't much of a major injury risk.

He's not coming here. But I'd do jumping jacks if he did. The guy is a warrior and probably the best pitcher in the game right now.

Yeah, I agree that if you combine durability and skills, CC is right up there... kind of like a better, LH version of Harang. If the Reds sign him though, they've got to get Dusty to sign an agreement NOT to use either of those guys in short rest, extra innings scenarios. If he avoids doing that, CC and Harang could be the best "bulldog" combo in MLB. Add in Volquez, Cueto and Arroyo and you've got a sick, sick rotation.

1) Sabathia
2) Volquez
3) Harang
4) Cueto
5) Arroyo

Dare we dream?

Ltlabner
08-25-2008, 07:23 PM
Does anyone else feel like a Burrell signing would be the ultimate slap in Adam Dunn's face?


NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG RAR RAP OPS+ RC/27
Pat Burrell 31 524 .316 .391 .555 48.9 24.2 141 8.2
Adam Dunn 28 464 .302 .373 .528 36.4 13.6 146 7.2 (Reds) 9.2 (ARI)

Slap in Dunns face? No. Slap in the fans face? Yes. Especially since the FO will regale us with tales of how Burrell is a real nugget of a pickup, how they are serrious about winning, and how they found a guy who "knows how to win". Etc. Etc Etc.

Burell is having a strong 2008 at the plate. But they could have had Dunn who is 3 years further away from the inevitable decline and who has produced over the years without the benefit of Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Jimmy Rollins et al surrounding him.

And it's a possibility that they could have signed Dunn for less money than it would likely take to lure Burell to the SS Titanic.

No, instead they'll sign Burrell to a 5 year deal, overpay for less production and flog his 2008 numbers. Then they'll wrap the entire turd sandwich up with the wholesome goodness of...



Name Strike Outs
Pat Burrell 105
Adam Dunn 133

cincrazy
08-26-2008, 12:50 AM
What is all this speculation about the Reds signing Burrell? That's about as unrealistic of a scenario as I can imagine. If they were to sign him, it'd be the height of idiocy. But I don't think it's worth discussing much, because I would hope Walt is smarter than that.

Spring~Fields
08-26-2008, 08:28 AM
"Reds expected to dip further into market"

I will ask the same questions here.

What trading chips do they have to acquire some veterans of any value? League average players, upgrades etc. Phillips, Edwin Encarncion, Votto, Arroyo, some prospects from the minors? What can they get from that selection?

They are already short on pitching with some pitchers that have potential injury question marks ahead of them.

What’s on the FA market, a few starting pitchers, CC Sabathia, Ben Sheets, Dempster? A few relievers, Joe Beimel, Juan Cruz, Brian Fuentes?

A couple second basemen Ellis and Hudson and an outfielder maybe, Milton Bradley? The larger market teams from New York, LA, Chicago, Boston or a St. Louis or Houston will snatch them up or they will resign with their current teams. Surely they won't sign those other older players to any lengthy long term contracts with sizable raises next year, will they? for Baker to parade out there everyday? Now what?

edabbs44
08-26-2008, 08:38 AM
Does anyone else feel like a Burrell signing would be the ultimate slap in Adam Dunn's face?

Why would it be a slap? This is a business. The Reds were able to trade Dunn for prospects. If they filled his spot with a guy who might only cost money and additionally got prospects, then where is the harm?

It's kind of funny how sensitive of an issue the whole Dunn saga has become.

KronoRed
08-26-2008, 01:10 PM
I don't see it as being sensitive, everything said about Dunn has been said about Burrel, if Dunn was a problem (hillrious) then Burrel is as well.

Is 3 warm bodies worth getting a worse player? if that's the plan then we should just trade everyone for as many bodies as we can get.

Chip R
08-26-2008, 02:30 PM
I don't see it as being sensitive, everything said about Dunn has been said about Burrel, if Dunn was a problem (hillrious) then Burrel is as well.


Not that I support getting Burrell but he's a righty hitter and Dunn's a lefty. Other than that and their age, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two.

Highlifeman21
08-26-2008, 04:40 PM
Sounds like exactly the kind of move this FO will get behind. After all, Burrell does hit for slightly better average... :rolleyes:

And he's a RHB, and rumor has it we need one of those.

Kc61
08-26-2008, 04:54 PM
And he's a RHB, and rumor has it we need one of those.

Reds absolutely need a righty bat. Burrell would be a good choice offensively. But --

I thought Votto was being moved to LF. Or EE moved to left field. Currently Dickerson is playing left field. How many left fielders do the Reds intend to have?

If Burrell were signed long term and Votto stays at first, why did they just agree to pay $4 plus million to Mr. Alonso?

You would think the Reds would emphasize defensive stalwarts this off season. Burrell is not that.

So if the Reds go for Burrell, it raises a lot of questions. My guess is they won't go that route.

Ltlabner
08-26-2008, 06:26 PM
Not that I support getting Burrell but he's a righty hitter and Dunn's a lefty. Other than that and their age, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two.

And that was my point. I'd give Dunn the edge because he puts up the numbers despite the crap that surrounds him, but Burrell is a fine player.

It would just be madening if they chough up some serrious coin for the guy and try to package him as an offensive cornerstone when they could have the same (or IMO better) production from a younger guy whos produced without Howards, Rollins, and Utleys around him. Or even get really wild man, and try to figure out a way to have both guys on your team at the same time.

And they'd probably bang the "less strike outs" drum for the bozos who would eat that up.

RedsManRick
08-26-2008, 07:49 PM
Reds absolutely need a righty bat.

2008 Reds
vL: .254/.334 /.417, .751 OPS
vR: .241/.310/.399, .709 OPS

And that was before we lost Adam Dunn:
vL: .194/.363/.395, .758 OPS
vR: .257/.397/.594, .991 OPS

Right handed pitching has eaten us alive this year. Maybe it's been Patterson and Bako playing against nearly every righty. But we've hit lefties better than righties.

Given that about 75% of SP are righties, I've never understood wanting to have a balanced lineup. Doesn't it make more sense to stack up lefties so that you can absolutely demolish the opposing starter 75% of the time?

Bottom line, Reds need better hitters. Handedness is a secondary consideration at best.

Rojo
08-27-2008, 07:53 PM
What about Hank Blalock? Texas has an option but he's had two bad seasons. Plug him at third, move EdE to left?

RedEye
08-27-2008, 09:27 PM
Why would it be a slap? This is a business. The Reds were able to trade Dunn for prospects. If they filled his spot with a guy who might only cost money and additionally got prospects, then where is the harm?

It's kind of funny how sensitive of an issue the whole Dunn saga has become.

I'm sure Adam would maintain perspective and not take it that way. But the fact remains that if the Reds sign Burrell they will be getting an older, less talented, equally bad fielder for at least the same amount of money. If I said I wanted to go back to my job that I was good at and instead got replaced by someone who did it worse for more money... well, I might start to think that my old bosses just didn't like me or something. Sure, "it's a business" -- but we all know that this is a phrase that often stands in for "I'm disappointed because the team I came up with didn't want to keep me."

OldXOhio
08-27-2008, 10:04 PM
Just curious with all of this Burrell talk but has anyone actually seen or heard that PB will be an offseason target of Walt's?

RedEye
08-28-2008, 07:50 AM
Just curious with all of this Burrell talk but has anyone actually seen or heard that PB will be an offseason target of Walt's?

Nope. Pure speculation.

CC's name has, however, surfaced in the speculation of someone who writes a column... sez the Reds are a "dark horse" to sign him.