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View Full Version : Are EE's days at third numbered?



ChatterRed
08-23-2008, 04:41 PM
http://www.redszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71306

Francisco and Waring voted best third basemen in their respective leagues. Not to mention Frazier can play third too.

If Alonso is the real deal...........and moves up quickly............will Votto be moved to LF?

We may possibly be looking at a position lineup like this in the next couple of years:

1B Alonso
2B Phillips
SS Keppinger/someone else
3B Frazier or Francisco
LF Votto
CF Dickerson
RF Bruce

Actually, there's some good power in that lineup, if they can all improve on their averages. Keppinger is the only average type hitter.

ChatterRed
08-23-2008, 07:22 PM
Not to keep harping on this stuff, but I had more thoughts.

1. The only position locks on this team are Jay Bruce, somewhere in the OF - preferably RF or LF. Phillips at 2B or move him to SS.

2. EE - what to do with him? I have been an EE fan for a long time, expecting him to continue to improve...........but he isn't one of the better defensive 3B in the league, nor is his bat that great. 48 rbi's on 22 HR's??? Several things I see happening: 1. They stick with him another year and see if he improves, and continue to develop guys in the minor leagues to replace him. 2. Move Keppinger to 3B permanently and include EE in some kind of trade. 3. Upgrade by trade or free agent.

3. SS - who plays it? Will Gonzales come back healthy? Can Kepp play adequate SS to keep his bat in the lineup? Should they move Phillips to SS and put Kepp on 2B? Sign a FA SS to fill the position?

4. 1B - Where does Alonso play if Votto is locked in at first base? Surely they didn't pay Alonso that kind of money (if he deserves to play in the majors) to relocate his position? Should they move Votto to LF right now and experiment?

5. CF - is Dickerson the answer in CF? I believe he is defensively. I believe he's the best defensive CFer we've had in awhile. Offensively, will he K too much or will he continue to hit major league pitching? That's why they're auditioning him this August and September - to find out.

6. Keppinger - it is my opinion that they have to find a position for the guy to keep his contact bat in the lineup. I strongly believe his dip in average was from coming back too quickly off the broken kneecap. I like this guy and want to see him the lineup. He's a gamer.

Here's my off the cuff lineup moves:

This year -

1B - Votto - continue to play him there until Alonso arrives
2B - Keppinger - move him there from SS
SS - Phillips - switch him with Keppinger
3B - EE - continue to play him there until you have a better option
OF - Dickerson
OF - Bruce
OF - ???? - why keep playing Patterson? I seriously hope come September they bring up some double AA OFer's and give them a look. Why not?

Future -
1B Alonso
2B Keppinger
SS Phillips
3B Frazier / Francisco / Waring / Free Agent
OF Dickerson or someone else
OF Bruce
OF Votto or someone else

kwyjibo
08-24-2008, 04:13 AM
In the games I've seen, Votto looks like a catcher trying to play 1B. I'd take EE's glove over Votto every day. Why not see if EE can handle 1B during spring training? What's the worst that can happen? Taking away AB's from Andy Phillips and Valentin? Hmmm......:p:

Grande Donkey
08-24-2008, 10:00 AM
In the games I've seen, Votto looks like a catcher trying to play 1B. I'd take EE's glove over Votto every day. Why not see if EE can handle 1B during spring training? What's the worst that can happen? Taking away AB's from Andy Phillips and Valentin? Hmmm......:p:
In reference to Votto looking like a catcher at 1B... not hardly.


Its been a few weeks since the last defensive numbers update. I thought it was time to take a look at how our guys are doing right now.

1B - Joey Votto

Joey Votto still remains near the top of the list coming in at +23 players made versus the average. That ranks him 3rd in baseball behind just Albert Pujols and Lance Berkman. While Votto may still have a few issues to work through at first base, his range over there is an absolute plus and shouldn’t be overlooked.from redspitchfx.com

Joey Votto does have some shortcomings on the defensive side but his range more than makes up for it.

BLEEDS
08-25-2008, 12:57 PM
I think between Alonso/EE/Votto you have the 1b/3b/LF positions to play them at, but probably not what people here have been posting.

Some of the first things out of the FO's mouth after signing Alonso is that they would give him REPS at 3rd, keeping Votto at 1B.

I don't see Votto as a LF prospect.

I could see EE as a LF prospect.

Kepp is not a 3B prospect. You can't have a guy with his OPS playing 3B, and hope to be better than the Pirates. I also don't think he has the range/arm for 3B. He's an ideal #2 hole candidate, but probably best suited to 2B defensively, and I don't see BP moving there, but of course that could change depending on the IF/WHEN of AGon and and upcoming defensive SS.

I still stand on the "we can live with poor Offense from SS and C" podium, BUT that's if we put PREMIUM offense just about everywhere else on the Field, CF being the exception as long as it's a ~.350 OBP to go with Stellar D.

PEACE

-BLEEDS

Old NDN
08-27-2008, 06:45 PM
I don't think EE will ever become a steady defender at 3B. If his bat is MLB caliber, you got to move him or trade him. If he becomes your 1B, what happens to Alonso and/or Votto? I'm sure (hope) Walt has a plan. Lots of possibilities.

walk-off
08-29-2008, 12:57 AM
I don't like EE's bat in left. Don't foreget he and Votto are the same age!!! I would not mind seeing Votto moved there with Kepp holding down 1b till Alonso is ready...

I(heart)Freel
08-29-2008, 12:53 PM
Related note.

Was listening to the second inning last weekend and remember Marty and Mark talking about Eric Davis' continued presence. He has to be working with someone in the outfield... but wouldnt someone know who? Surprised this hasnt been reported more. Is he out there with Votto or EdE? Or both? Or teaching Dickerson center?

Surely our press has noticed something.

kpresidente
08-29-2008, 10:28 PM
Why not try him at SS? It's an easier position if you have the range. The balls aren't hit as hard and you've got more time to throw.

OUReds
08-30-2008, 02:23 AM
Unfortunately, Edwin doesn't have the range. His revised zone rating of .610 is last in the NL among qualified 3rd basemen. Heck, it's last in all of MLB.

He has had 31 OOZ plays in 173 assists, not terrible, but not good either. It ranks 14th among the 24 qualified third basemen in MLB.

His fielding percentage is 23rd out of 24.

These numbers are not out of line with his 2006/2007 numbers.

Edwin is one of, if not THE, worst 3rd basemen in the league defensively. Frankly, he hasn't improved a lick in three years.

Shifting him to SS (or anywhere else on the right side of the defensive spectum) would be an unmitigated disaster.

If you want to solve the defense next year, Encarnacion and Keppinger simply can't form the left side of the infield. It's a searing inferno of defensive incompetence.

gedred69
08-30-2008, 11:41 PM
In the next 1-2 years, there are so many prospects for SS and 3rd, I think the situation will resolve itself. Kepp here now, EE can he be all he can be?, Valaika, Frazier, Francisco, Waring, and on and on for the next 5 years. BTW, someone has stated, (I think guru Doug)? has already said Frazier is definately not a MLB SS prospect. That leaves Kepp for now with Valaika knocking on the door at SS (not great but decent with a really good bat), and a log jam at 3rd with the rest. Can you say,,,,trade bait?

TC81190
08-31-2008, 08:45 PM
Unfortunately, Edwin doesn't have the range. His revised zone rating of .610 is last in the NL among qualified 3rd basemen. Heck, it's last in all of MLB.

He has had 31 OOZ plays in 173 assists, not terrible, but not good either. It ranks 14th among the 24 qualified third basemen in MLB.

His fielding percentage is 23rd out of 24.

These numbers are not out of line with his 2006/2007 numbers.

Edwin is one of, if not THE, worst 3rd basemen in the league defensively. Frankly, he hasn't improved a lick in three years.

Shifting him to SS (or anywhere else on the right side of the defensive spectum) would be an unmitigated disaster.

If you want to solve the defense next year, Encarnacion and Keppinger simply can't form the left side of the infield. It's a searing inferno of defensive incompetence.
Edwin has good range, there is no number that can tell you realistically how much range a player has. ZR is worthless, IMO. I agree with you otherwise, though. Edwin is an awful 3B. He could be an average LF offensively, and I imagine his range could possibly translate to a passable to good OF defense. Maybe with less defensive pressure, he could keep his head in the game consistently without getting down on himself and be more consistent with the wood.

I don't think his bat plays at 1B at all, however, nor can I see Votto being a decent LF.

OUReds
08-31-2008, 10:45 PM
Defensive stats aren't perfect, and I agree there is no single number that can tell you a player's range.

However, RZR says he isn't making plays in his zone. His OOZ play rate says he isn't making a particularly large amount of plays outside his zone.

If he does have good range, he does a good job of hiding it. :)

TC81190
09-01-2008, 07:28 PM
Defensive stats aren't perfect, and I agree there is no single number that can tell you a player's range.

However, RZR says he isn't making plays in his zone. His OOZ play rate says he isn't making a particularly large amount of plays outside his zone.

If he does have good range, he does a good job of hiding it. :)
Well, I would agree with that. He gets to a lot of balls, but he also botches a lot of those plays, as well.