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OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 03:03 AM
Rockies manager: Bruce, Votto more than just hitters

By Hal McCoy

Staff Writer

Sunday, August 24, 2008

DENVER — Colorado manager Clint Hurdle knows Joey Votto and Jay Bruce can hit — he doesn't need to watch closely to see that Votto had six hits in the first four games against the Rockies this year.

Hurdle watches other aspects of a young player's game, and he scores both Votto and Bruce on a high scale.

"I like both," he said. "I've watched them more not swinging the bat.

When I like guys, I tend to watch more when they are not hitting. That's when they create separation from being a good hitter to a good player.

"There are always handfuls of guys who were born to hit and want to hit, but I like to watch their intensity on defense and what they do when they get on the bases," Hurdle added.

And how are they?

"They've been showing up very good in my eyes," he said. "Votto's splits of hitting right and left are better right now than Bruce's, but that takes time. Our Brad Hawpe was not good, and this year he has having a breakthrough year against left-handed pitchers.

"I notice both Votto and Bruce are aggressive hitters, look to be confident hitters and seem to enjoy what they are doing," Hurdle said. "They both have age on their side and skills. That's a great combination to have."

Delay on call-ups

Any September call-ups, when rosters can be expanded from 25 to 40, will be delayed by the Cincinnati Reds because Class AAA Louisville is in the International League playoffs and Reds manager Dusty Baker said, "That's a good delay for them, playing for something."

The call-up candidates on the 40-man roster when they are made: pitchers Homer Bailey and Todd Coffey, infielder Paul Janish — and not much else because, as Baker said, "Most are already here."

Baker, though, believes call-ups should be a reward for those who have done well, whether on the roster or not, and singled out left-handed pitcher Adam Pettyjohn.

"He is one guy nobody has talked about — he's a crafty lefty and is 14-5 this year," Baker said. "He won 15 last year (Actually, 16 at Class AAA Nashville, Tenn., and Class AA Huntsville, Ala.). I don't buy that about guys not having enough fastball. It's if they know how to win."

Is Frazier too big?

Baker was watching the Little League World Series on his office TV, and somebody commented on how big the Hawaiian pitcher was.

"You know, Todd Frazier (Class A Sarasota, Fla., shortstop) played on the Toms River, N.J., team that won the Little League World Series (1998)," Baker said. "He has 12 homers, but I'm thinking he might be too big (6-foot-3, 215 pounds to play shortstop.

"But then I see Colorado shortstop Troy Tulowitzki (6-3, 205) and, man, that whole Colorado infield is big," Baker said. "Maybe Frazier isn't too big."

Rockies third baseman Ian Stewart is 6-3, 205, second baseman Jeff Baker is 6-2, 210 and first baseman Garrett Atkins is 6-3, 215.

An added duty

Due to scheduling conflicts Friday, Aug. 23, there was no "official" official scorer at the Reds-Rockies game, so the duty was shared by the media relations directors, Rob Butcher of the Reds and Jay Alves of the Rockies.

They did well, making all the right calls, but one fan disagreed and yelled after they ruled a base hit on one play, "Hey, official scorer. That was an error."

Said Butcher, "Now I feel official."

Quote of the day

Jeremy Affeldt was looking at his National League Championship ring, presented to him by the Colorado Rockies Friday night (he was a member of the Rockies last year, a team that lost the World Series to the Boston Red Sox): "This is a loser's ring. But it's the nicest loser's ring I ever saw."

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/reds/2008/08/24/ddn082408spredsnotesweb.html

dougdirt
08-24-2008, 03:16 AM
Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?

Topcat
08-24-2008, 03:35 AM
Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?

It is beyond me Dirt and trust me Dirt Hurdles not a good head coach, Rockies won in spite of him last year.

remdog
08-24-2008, 09:05 AM
Well, let's just jump (or should I say dump) on Dusty again. He was obviously speaking in the vernacular and meaning '...know how to pitch'. Just as the next poster referred to Hurdle as a 'head coach', I was adroit enough to understand that he meant 'manager'...I think most people would be. In both cases!

Rem

RFS62
08-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?



The reason he said "knows how to win" is it's in the vernacular of baseball players and managers. They don't know that the phrase has been ridiculed and derided here and on message boards across the cyber-baseball world.

They don't share the inside joke that's common knowledge here. They don't realize that every time they say it in public, many RedsZoners proclaim that it's evidence that they don't know anything about baseball.

RedlegJake
08-24-2008, 09:16 AM
Well, let's just jump (or should I say dump) on Dusty again. He was obviously speaking in the vernacular and meaning '...know how to pitch'. Just as the next poster referred to Hurdle as a 'head coach', I was adroit enough to understand that he meant 'manager'...I think most people would be. In both cases!

Rem

I agree. The Dusty bashing on every little blurb is amazing. "Know how to pitch" and "know how to win" are practically interchangeable in baseball lingo. It's merely sloppy vernacular NOT some great indicator of how awful a manager Baker is. And I'd point out - he DOES have 40 years IN the game, not in the stands, in front of TVs or radios or calculators.

Wheelhouse
08-24-2008, 09:25 AM
Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?

It's exactly the phrase George Foster used to describe the Big Red Machine when asked the difference between the Reds and the Mets, whom he played for after the Reds: "The Mets had some talent, not like the Reds, but the bigger difference was that the Reds knew how to win baseball games." It's a phrase that has been in circulation for years and obviously has meaning to those who play the game.

GAC
08-24-2008, 09:33 AM
Pitchers that 'know how to win'.... how do you stay in the game for 40 years and actually say things like that?

Statements like that hilarious; but also very misunderstood! People like to jump on them. But what rem and rfs state about the vernacular is very true to. And Dusty is not the only one who says things like that.

It's baseball eubonics. ;)

edabbs44
08-24-2008, 09:38 AM
Maybe Dusty should hire a PR man to write his material for him ahead of time.

The picking apart of his quotes is really getting old.

Benihana
08-24-2008, 09:59 AM
Hurdle loves Votto? Great, it will be easier to trade him for Holliday. Get 'er done!

johngalt
08-24-2008, 11:07 AM
Maybe Dusty should hire a PR man to write his material for him ahead of time.

The picking apart of his quotes is really getting old.

This isn't about picking apart Dusty's quotes.

It's about how ridiculous it is that a Major League manager is making it seem noteworthy that a 31-year-old pitcher won 16 games with a 4.07 ERA between AA and AAA in 2007 and has won 14 games with a 4.66 ERA this season.

If he wants to say "Pettyjohn's had a good year, so rewarding him might be a good idea," then I have no issue with that. But to actually imply that winning 15-16 games at that age in AAA means he could get things done in the majors is absurd.

RedsManRick
08-24-2008, 11:15 AM
It would be one thing if "knows how to win" actually did have some meaning behind it, if it was merely a relatively inarticulate short-hand for a combination of talent, skills, and work-ethic. But we've seen with Dusty that it doesn't. Dusty told us earlier this year that Josh Fogg knows how to win, as evidenced by his 10+ wins the last two year. He meant it literally.

A player who "knows how to win" is like a girl with "a nice personality". It's one thing if the girl actually is really cool, funny, etc and you want to highlight those things. But when she is, 99% of the time you actually highlight those particulars. When you use the tired phrase, it's because you aren't really talking about her personality, you're talking implicitly about her looks.

In my experience "Knows how to win" is used in two ways:
1) You like the guy/team but can't find ability based compliments that won't make you look hypocritical (because other players have more ability). In this case, Adam Pettyjohn is in not a better pitcher or call-up option than about 4 other guys. But Dusty likes him, so he's "crafty" and "knows how to win". Dusty has a real love affair with guys short on talent who keep scrapping.

2) It's what you say about somebody who is talented but you want to sound more insightful than merely pointing out that talent basis. It's an appeal to character. Some people simply feel more comfortable pretending we're all equal except for our work ethic and experience.

I'm done harping on Dusty the manager. Sure, I'll still bemoan specific decisions as points of discussion in the abstract, but there's no point in complaining about Dusty. To borrow another cliche', he is what he is. He's nearly everything I expected him to be, with the exception of his better than expected handling of the pitching staff. He's a people person, not a thinker. But at the end of the day, the #1 determinant on this team's success is the amount of talent Jocketty puts on the 25 man roster. And while Dusty make poor use of what's he got, what's he got isn't enough.

edabbs44
08-24-2008, 11:33 AM
This isn't about picking apart Dusty's quotes.

It's about how ridiculous it is that a Major League manager is making it seem noteworthy that a 31-year-old pitcher won 16 games with a 4.07 ERA between AA and AAA in 2007 and has won 14 games with a 4.66 ERA this season.

If he wants to say "Pettyjohn's had a good year, so rewarding him might be a good idea," then I have no issue with that. But to actually imply that winning 15-16 games at that age in AAA means he could get things done in the majors is absurd.

If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.

RedsManRick
08-24-2008, 11:51 AM
If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.

Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts. We can spin it any way you want. Bottom line is that it's odd that in a year such as this, when talk moves to prospects getting an opportunity and building for the future, Dusty focuses on the 31 year old career minor leaguer who looks an awful lot like a left handed Josh Fogg. Dude loves him some underdog.

edabbs44
08-24-2008, 11:57 AM
Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts. We can spin it any way you want. Bottom line is that it's odd that in a year such as this, when talk moves to prospects getting an opportunity and building for the future, Dusty focuses on the 31 year old career minor leaguer who looks an awful lot like a left handed Josh Fogg. Dude loves him some underdog.

If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).

Jpup
08-24-2008, 12:10 PM
If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).

He has an ERA of almost 5 in AAA at 31. I don't think it would turn out well.

dougdirt
08-24-2008, 12:18 PM
If someone performs well in AAA then he should get a shot with the big club no matter if he is 20 or 30. Sure the guy might crap out. He might also be Ryan Ludwick.

There's nothing wrong with giving Pettyjohn a few starts. If he gets buried, then he goes away forever (hopefully).
Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks. :rolleyes:

corkedbat
08-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks. :rolleyes:

Agreed DD. I'd list Maloney, Ramierez, Thompson and even Livingston as guys I'd give September starts too ahead of Pettyjohn.

johngalt
08-24-2008, 12:40 PM
If you want to dig in even further, he isn't saying that Pettyjohn knows how to win. He said that he doesn't really care if the guy throws heat, he cares more if he "knows how to win". Which, to me, means that he'd rather have a crafty guy who keeps your team in ballgames over a guy who throws gas and gets shelled.

No, he didn't say "Adam Pettyjohn is a guy who knows how to win."

But he specifically brought up Pettyjohn when no one else has ever mentioned his name and then proceeded to say "he's a crafty lefty and is 14-5 this year" and then later says it's about whether a guy knows how to win.

I don't think it's a huge leap or some kind of stretch to say that he does see Pettyjohn as someone who "knows how to win." I think any reasonable person would understand that's what Dusty was saying even though he didn't explicitly say it.

edabbs44
08-24-2008, 01:09 PM
Sure, if a guy performs in AAA he probably should get a shot with the club, but here is a 31 year old with a 1.33 WHIP and 4.66 ERA in AAA. Yeah, he has a bunch of wins.... but he plays on the best team in AAA. He has the 2nd highest ERA of any starter with at least 8 starts on the Bats (7 guys have at least 8 starts and that doesn't include Daryl Thompson). Fact is, there are a few guys even more deserving of those starts than Pettyjohn. Not just because of the numbers, but because of age and ability as well as the numbers. Ramon Ramirez is the main guy I am talking about. 1.18 WHIP, 3.28 ERA, 89 K's in 91 innings and he is a groundball pitcher. He is only 3-5 though, so he probably sucks. :rolleyes:

More than one guy can get called up.

dougdirt
08-24-2008, 01:14 PM
More than one guy can get called up.

Sure, but there is only so many starts to go around. We already have 5 guys. I assume they still want to see Bailey, Thompson (if healthy) and Livingston. Thats three guys right there, then there is Ramirez who is on the 40 man who has the stuff and the numbers. Then there is also Maloney, who isn't on the 40 man, but likely more a part of the future than Pettyjohn.

OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 01:16 PM
Dusty's comments on Todd Frazier is what has me scratching my head. Dusty says Frazier may be able to stay at shortstop because he's similar in size to Tulowitzki. Size doesn't mean anything. Tulowitzki has quickness, good hands, and solid range whereas Frazier lacks the range to stick at SS. His size has nothing to do with it.

dougdirt
08-24-2008, 01:18 PM
Dusty's comments on Todd Frazier is what has me scratching my head. Dusty says Frazier may be able to stay at shortstop because he's similar in size to Tulowitzki. Size doesn't mean anything. Tulowitzki has quickness, good hands, and solid range whereas Frazier lacks the range to stick at SS. His size has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, but its Dusty Baker.... the guy talks, he doesn't think.

OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 01:20 PM
From the Reds:
--Joey Votto had three hits for the Reds Saturday night, his 16th three-hit game this season, twice as many as any other rookie in the National League. Geovany Soto is next with eight such games. Kansas City’s Mike Aviles leads A.L. rookies with 13 three-hit games.

--According to Elias Sports Bureau, Joey Votto (15hr) and Jay Bruce (14) are the first pair of Reds rookies ever to produce at least 14 home runs each in the same season...most likely, the Reds will be the only team in the Majors this season to have 2 rookies produce at least 14 homers each.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aea0942c2-8292-4148-b928-b6784e5d7d34&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Falls City Beer
08-24-2008, 02:22 PM
I read Dusty's statement this way: "We have no depth at all in the minors so we're going to throw this crap against the wall and see if it sticks!"

*BaseClogger*
08-24-2008, 03:21 PM
So, are there actually pitchers in the majors that don't "know how to pitch", and position players that don't know how to "play the game the right way"? I don't remember too many pitchers tossing it underhand or batters running the bases backwards...

harangatang
08-24-2008, 08:37 PM
Or that W-L is a better indicator of pitching ability than things like ERA and strikeouts.Jeriome Robertson won 15 games in 2003 for Houston with a 5.10 ERA. Somehow he's not been in the bigs since 2004 (though he did make a stop in the minors for the Reds).

Blitz Dorsey
08-24-2008, 10:24 PM
I'm actually impressed Dusty knows as much about the minor league players as he does. He is always making references about some of them that surprise me. For some reason, I expect him to say, "Frazier? Isn't he on our high-A team or something? Yeah, I guess I've heard of him." But Dusty actually has studied these guys pretty extensively from what I can tell.

I also took the Pettyjohn comment as a shot towards guys like Homer Bailey who have all the skill in the world but don't know how to pitch. Some guys just buck up in pressure situations and get the job done. They don't walk a ton of guys. They don't have the best stuff, but they battle and they're around the plate. They mix up their pitches well. I think this is what Dusty was trying to say. Course, with Pettyjohn's age and ERA, he's closer to Tom Shearn than Reds '09 contributor.

BCubb2003
08-24-2008, 10:30 PM
So, are there actually pitchers in the majors that don't "know how to pitch", and position players that don't know how to "play the game the right way"? I don't remember too many pitchers tossing it underhand or batters running the bases backwards...

Bad baserunning, throwing to the wrong base, mistake pitches, meltdowns on the mound, turning one error behind you into a huge inning ... but mostly they mean a showy display of scrappiness vs. the aloof demeanor of the gifted.

remdog
08-24-2008, 10:38 PM
I also took the Pettyjohn comment as a shot towards guys like Homer Bailey who have all the skill in the world but don't know how to pitch. Some guys just buck up in pressure situations and get the job done. They don't walk a ton of guys. They don't have the best stuff, but they battle and they're around the plate. They mix up their pitches well. I think this is what Dusty was trying to say.

I think that is a terrific comment.

Rem