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OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 07:17 PM
Cueto: soreness in triceps tendon

By Hal McCoy | Sunday, August 24, 2008, 04:31 PM
Latest comment

Some thought equal parts of thin air and thin defense put quick closure on Cincinnati Reds pitcher Johnny Cueto’s start in Coors Field Sunday afternoon.

Unfortunately for the Reds, it was something more sinister that knocked him out of the game against the Colorado Rockies after only three innings — soreness in his triceps tendon.

Cueto, making his 27th start, returned to Cincinnati for a full evaluation today, but early indications are that the 22-year-old rookie may be shut down for the season.

The 22-year-old Dominican lasted didn’t give up a hit in his three innings, but he was forced to throw 74 pitches because his teammates made three errors in the first two innings and he walked three.

The score was 1-1 when Cueto left and Colorado’s run was unearned due to errors in the first inning by first baseman Joey Votto and right fielder Jay Bruce.

Cueto has thrown 155 innings this season after throwing 161 1/3 innings last year at Class A Sarasota, Class AA Chattanooga and Class AAA Louisville.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 07:22 PM
This season continues to get worse and worse. I knew this was only a matter of time. Cueto has thrown seven games of 110+ pitches (and he threw 109 pitches in two others) since late May, including one 120 pitch game last month. I've been screaming for Dusty to take it easy on him for months now and he hasn't, unfortunately. Let's hope and pray this is only minor and not something very serious.

mth123
08-24-2008, 07:28 PM
The Reds made 5 errors today. I have nothing but my opinion, but I think defense is at the root of many of these problems. Pitchers have had to pitch too many extended innings in order to get those extra outs. Its been happening all year whether it be from the poor range of Griffey and Dunn or the miscues of the guys that replaced them. Bad throws in the IF, no range at SS, lack of any ability to pick it at 1B and terrible catching all around.

I think this could have contributed to stretches of ineffectiveness from Arroyo, Cordero and Weathers throughout the year and Mike Lincoln most recently. I'm guessing its also a large part of the reason for Harang's forearm, Burton's shoulder and now Cueto today. The staff is gassed and abused, not by Dusty, but the guys playing behind them.

OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 07:43 PM
If this is indeed the last time Cueto pitches this season then I'd have to call it a very successful rookie season, especially when you consider the defense behind him.

155 IP, 153 H, 58 BB/146 K, 4.65 ERA, 8.5 K/9

Spring~Fields
08-24-2008, 07:48 PM
The Reds made 5 errors today. I have nothing but my opinion, but I think defense is at the root of many of these problems. Pitchers have had to pitch too many extended innings in order to get those extra outs. Its been happening all year whether it be from the poor range of Griffey and Dunn or the miscues of the guys that replaced them. Bad throws in the IF, no range at SS, lack of any ability to pick it at 1B and terrible catching all around.

I think this could have contributed to stretches of ineffectiveness from Arroyo, Cordero and Weathers throughout the year and Mike Lincoln most recently. I'm guessing its also a large part of the reason for Harang's forearm, Burton's shoulder and now Cueto today. The staff is gassed and abused, not by Dusty, but the guys playing behind them.

The lack of run support most of the year on top of the bad defense did not help take any pressure off the pitching either and keep them from over throwing or whatever to try harder.

OnBaseMachine
08-24-2008, 07:49 PM
In the postgame show Dusty says Cueto felt tightness and doesn't think it's too serious. Let's hope he's right. Even if it's nothing I would still shut him down for the season.

Spring~Fields
08-24-2008, 07:55 PM
In the postgame show Dusty says Cueto felt tightness and doesn't think it's too serious. Let's hope he's right. Even if it's nothing I would still shut him down for the season.

Why did they say that they were sending him home then to be examined?

I don't recall Harang or Arroyo getting that fast of an examination.

redsmetz
08-24-2008, 07:56 PM
In the postgame show Dusty says Cueto felt tightness and doesn't think it's too serious. Let's hope he's right. Even if it's nothing I would still shut him down for the season.

With it clearly being a lost season, I agree we should err on the side of caution. There's no sense overdoing it.

SMcGavin
08-24-2008, 08:30 PM
If this is indeed the last time Cueto pitches this season then I'd have to call it a very successful rookie season, especially when you consider the defense behind him.

155 IP, 153 H, 58 BB/146 K, 4.65 ERA, 8.5 K/9

Absolutely. For a 22 year old Cueto was wonderful. I was looking around for guys to compare him to, here is Cole Hamels in his age 22 rookie season:

132.2 IP, 4.08 ERA, 145 K, 48 BB

I'd take Hamels' debut season over Cueto's but they are not too much different. I am really looking forward to watching Johnny mature over the next few seasons.

Sea Ray
08-24-2008, 08:55 PM
Why did they say that they were sending him home then to be examined?

I don't recall Harang or Arroyo getting that fast of an examination.

Dusty's not a doctor. I'm not sure why you're asking this. Are you saying because Dusty doesn't think it's serious they shouldn't have Kremchek evaluate him pronto?

Sounds like they're getting him checked out immediately and regardless of what Kremchek says they're seriously considering shutting him down for the year. Sounds to me like the Reds are handling this very well. Anyone have any problems with how they're handling Cueto?

Blitz Dorsey
08-24-2008, 10:14 PM
No question about it -- very solid season for a 22-year-old rookie. Cueto is going to be a gem for many years in Cincinnati if he stays healthy. Hopefully this is no big deal. I like the idea of shutting him down the rest of the year even if it's something minor. He's pitched a full season for a rookie. No need to push it when we're playing for nothing. Guys like Shearn can come up and pitch in September while I'll be watching football. Time to think about 2009 and nothing other than 2009. I wouldn't mind if the Reds shut down Volquez here in a couple weeks.

BCubb2003
08-24-2008, 10:19 PM
It might actually be a good thing, for the long run.

puca
08-24-2008, 10:19 PM
The Reds made 5 errors today. I have nothing but my opinion, but I think defense is at the root of many of these problems. Pitchers have had to pitch too many extended innings in order to get those extra outs. Its been happening all year whether it be from the poor range of Griffey and Dunn or the miscues of the guys that replaced them. Bad throws in the IF, no range at SS, lack of any ability to pick it at 1B and terrible catching all around.

I think this could have contributed to stretches of ineffectiveness from Arroyo, Cordero and Weathers throughout the year and Mike Lincoln most recently. I'm guessing its also a large part of the reason for Harang's forearm, Burton's shoulder and now Cueto today. The staff is gassed and abused, not by Dusty, but the guys playing behind them.

I agree 100%.

Offseason priority HAS to be to fix the defense.

The health and development of the pitchers depend on it.

And the future of this team depends on the young pitchers.

Spring~Fields
08-24-2008, 10:52 PM
Dusty's not a doctor.


In the postgame show Dusty says Cueto felt tightness and doesn't think it's too serious.

That's right, the common laymen is not qualified to make a determination as to the condition of Cueto's medical condition. Someone obviously felt that it might be serious contrary to the quote and flew Cueto home by private jet to be examined.

remdog
08-24-2008, 11:18 PM
I'd be interested in knowing if Cueto let the manager know this immediately upon the first 'twinge' or if it actually happened an inning or two earlier and he tried to pitch through it.

Rem

Caseyfan21
08-24-2008, 11:38 PM
It might actually be a good thing, for the long run.

Exactly what I was thinking. I think Dusty would have ridden Cueto all the way through September but a minor little injury like this will be a great excuse to DL Cueto the rest of the way and not even have him pick up a baseball for a few weeks. The Reds just need to do the right thing here and shut him down.

Jpup
08-24-2008, 11:39 PM
It must be Adam Dunn's fault. ;)

Spitball
08-24-2008, 11:56 PM
He has already pitched 155 innings big league innings,multiple spring innings, plus 29 plus winter ball innings. I'd say it is time to shut him down.

I guess there might be one benefit to Baker having a multi-year contract. He doesn't have to push the kid to make his record look better this year.

johngalt
08-25-2008, 12:04 AM
That's right, the common laymen is not qualified to make a determination as to the condition of Cueto's medical condition. Someone obviously felt that it might be serious contrary to the quote and flew Cueto home by private jet to be examined.

One other thing to consider with all of this is that the Reds next go to Houston for three games and then return home anyway, so it wasn't as if Cueto was scheduled to pitch anymore on the road. I'm sure that was a consideration in flying him home to be examined as well.

WVRedsFan
08-25-2008, 12:39 AM
It must be Adam Dunn's fault. ;)

My thoughts exactly. Even from afar, AD still ruins the Reds. He and Junior, the two cancers.

And now we sit watching 3 run games (with 4 or 5 hits) and talk about how wonderful the future is without those two cancers.

We've never had it so good, right? :D

Caveat Emperor
08-25-2008, 12:40 AM
I guess there might be one benefit to Baker having a multi-year contract. He doesn't have to push the kid to make his record look better this year.

So what you're telling me is that I have lots to look forward to in the next couple seasons?

KronoRed
08-25-2008, 12:58 AM
We've never had it so good, right? :D

Well it they can't be worse...right? :D

Falls City Beer
08-25-2008, 10:59 AM
That's right, the common laymen is not qualified to make a determination as to the condition of Cueto's medical condition. Someone obviously felt that it might be serious contrary to the quote and flew Cueto home by private jet to be examined.

Often even the most skilled physicians can't make these determinations either.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 11:26 AM
Reds cautionary toward Cueto

By John Fay • jfay@enquirer.com • August 25, 2008

DENVER - In the discussion of Johnny Cueto's injury, the word "precaution" was used over and over.
Advertisement

The right-hander left Sunday's 4-3, 12-inning loss to the Colorado Rockies after three innings.

Cueto complained of stiffness and soreness in the back of his right arm - near where the triceps tendon connects to the elbow.

"It was purely precaution," trainer Mark Mann said. "With Johnny being young, we wanted to err on the side of caution."

Cueto flew back to Cincinnati on owner Bob Castellini's private plane. (Castellini was at the game.)

Cueto will be examined today in Cincinnati by medical director Dr. Timothy Kremchek.

Cueto threw 35 pitches in the first inning. He mentioned the stiffness to Mann after the third inning.

"We didn't want to take any chances," Mann said.

There was no swelling. Cueto hasn't complained of elbow problems before.

"He warmed up good," Reds manager Dusty Baker said. "He had good velocity."

The Reds don't think this is serious.

"We're very optimistic," Mann said.

Cueto did not allow a hit. He walked three and struck out four. He allowed an unearned run and threw a total of 74 pitches.

Cueto, 22, has thrown a total of 155 innings this year. He threw 161 1/3 last season, which was a career-high. He threw another 31 2/3 innings in winter ball.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080825/SPT04/808250361/1071

redsmetz
08-25-2008, 11:45 AM
Enquirer headline read:


Reds cautionary toward Cueto

I turned to my wife this morning at breakfast and showed her this headline. The Reds are being "cautionary toward Cueto" - they're being "cautious". Oh my goodness, that paper just keeps sliding further down a hill.


of the nature of or containing a warning: cautionary advice; a cautionary tale.

Chip R
08-25-2008, 12:10 PM
With it clearly being a lost season, I agree we should err on the side of caution. There's no sense overdoing it.


We're still trying to win games, dude.

Falls City Beer
08-25-2008, 12:13 PM
He should get a no-hitter. Holla!

Chip R
08-25-2008, 12:32 PM
It must be Adam Dunn's fault. ;)


It's a good thing he or Jr. weren't playing yesterday or the Reds may have had 10 errors. ;)

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 12:39 PM
I wish they would hurry up and announce something. I have a bad feeling...

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 12:48 PM
From Trent:

* Speaking of wrong, I gotta admit, I was wrong.

I thought the hiring of Dusty Baker was questionable, but I said give it a chance, it can't be as bad as Cub fans say. What I should have said was, Baker is so bad that even Cub fans can tell how bad he is during their break in the world's largest frat house that is Wrigley Field.

It's not just one instance with Johnny Cueto before he left Sunday's game with elbow pain, it's the constant one extra inning he's been worked all season, especially the last two months. Cueto would repeatedly have 95-plus pitches after five innings and he'd be sent back for the sixth to run his final tally above 110.

Cueto's pitched 155 innings this season and was on pace to pitch 197 -- last season he pitched 161.1 inings, 138 in 2006 and 49 in 2005.

I don't believe in babying young arms, but I also don't believe in abusing them.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog

Chip R
08-25-2008, 12:54 PM
It's not just one instance with Johnny Cueto before he left Sunday's game with elbow pain, it's the constant one extra inning he's been worked all season, especially the last two months. Cueto would repeatedly have 95-plus pitches after five innings and he'd be sent back for the sixth to run his final tally above 110.

Cueto's pitched 155 innings this season and was on pace to pitch 197 -- last season he pitched 161.1 inings, 138 in 2006 and 49 in 2005.

I don't believe in babying young arms, but I also don't believe in abusing them.

http://www.thelotd.com/ctrent/blog


Was it his elbow or his triceps? I'm no doctor but those are two different areas.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 12:55 PM
Was it his elbow or his triceps? I'm no doctor but those are two different areas.

Hal and Fay says it's where the triceps tendon connects to the elbow.

RedsManRick
08-25-2008, 01:00 PM
I think we need to differentiate between innings and pitches per start (or inning). Cueto's inning total was not a problem. Most studies show a 30 IP increase each year is optimal - that's right where Cueto was headed. If you count his 30 some odd winter league innings, he was on pace to repeat it. The problem I have with Cueto's usage was that he was quite inefficient and Dusty wasted numerous opportunities to give Cueto a breather.

Cueto averaged 17.2 P/IP. League average for SP is around 16.0. If you add that up, Cueto threw about 12 more IP worth of pitches than the average guy with 155 IP. That's 2 extra starts worth of pitches hidden in his innings. I do not think that Cueto was abused this season. But he wasn't protected either. I don't think you necessarily need to coddle the guy. But you should take care of opportunities to not push him when the situation dictates.

What's scary is that of the 125 pitchers with at least 100 IP, Arroyo (118th), Harang (111th), Volquez (108th), and Cueto (106th) are all in the bottom 20 of pitch efficiency. You have believe that a good portion of that blame belongs to the defense.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 01:10 PM
I agree that Cueto wasn't extremely abused (unlike Mark Prior, who Dusty murdered in 2003), but he could have been handled a lot better IMO. That 120 pitch game against the Padres on July 22nd is what sticks out the most to me. The Reds were already out of playoff contention at that time, there was no sense in sending Cueto back out for another inning in a meaningless game for the Reds. Since May 21st, Cueto has had nine 109+ pitch games in 18 starts. That's not something I want to see out of a 22-year old pitcher, especially a diminutive guy like Cueto. I remember making note of it in a game thread that Cueto's stuff seemed flat in his next two starts after that 120 pitch game. I hope this turns out to be nothing and if it does I hope it serves as a reminder to Dusty that 22-year old pitchers can't be pushed too hard.

puca
08-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Cueto averaged 17.2 P/IP. League average for SP is around 16.0. If you add that up, Cueto threw about 12 more IP worth of pitches than the average guy with 155 IP. That's 2 extra starts worth of pitches hidden in his innings. I do not think that Cueto was abused this season. But he wasn't protected either. I don't think you necessarily need to coddle the guy. But you should take care of opportunities to not push him when the situation dictates.

How much of that is directly related to the poor defense?

Who is to blame for that? I have to think mostly the GM(s).

PuffyPig
08-25-2008, 01:29 PM
How much of that is directly related to the poor defense?

Who is to blame for that? I have to think mostly the GM(s).

I'd have to think that the deficient fielding players should shoulder some of the blame.

Matt700wlw
08-25-2008, 02:02 PM
UPDATE from the Reds:

RHP Johnny Cueto’s examination in Cincinnati today by team medical director Dr. Timothy Kremchek revealed a posterior strain of his right elbow possibly due to hyperextension of that elbow.

He will be examined in Cincinnati again on Friday and will miss his next start, scheduled for Saturday against the Giants.

Cueto left yesterday’s start at Colorado after 3.0 innings.

BRM
08-25-2008, 02:05 PM
Just put him on the DL and shut him down. No reason to risk anything this season.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 02:09 PM
That's not too bad then is it? I'd still shut him down for the season.

BRM
08-25-2008, 02:17 PM
That's not too bad then is it? I'd still shut him down for the season.

It doesn't sound all that bad. I'd still rather they played it safe with him and shut him down.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 02:22 PM
It doesn't sound all that bad. I'd still rather they played it safe with him and shut him down.

Absolutely. There is no point at all in bringing him back this season with only five weeks left in the season. He had a very successful rookie season and ended on a high note by allowing only two earned runs over his last three starts. He was one of the few brights spots of the 2008 season and I look forward to seeing what he can do in 2009 with a year of experience under his belt.

puca
08-25-2008, 02:49 PM
I'd have to think that the deficient fielding players should shoulder some of the blame.

It's not Jeff Keppinger's fault he is a range limited second baseman playing SS. It was not Juniors fault that he has no legs left. It was not Dunn's fault that he is a very big man (well not entirely).

Sea Ray
08-25-2008, 02:49 PM
UPDATE from the Reds:

RHP Johnny Cueto’s examination in Cincinnati today by team medical director Dr. Timothy Kremchek revealed a posterior strain of his right elbow possibly due to hyperextension of that elbow.

He will be examined in Cincinnati again on Friday and will miss his next start, scheduled for Saturday against the Giants.

Cueto left yesterday’s start at Colorado after 3.0 innings.


I wonder if they took an MRI? I have to believe any pitcher who throws 150 innings or more will experience a strain of the elbow at some point. Sounds like Kremchek didn't find anything. If he didn't take an MRI then he wasn't even a little concerned.

RedsBaron
08-25-2008, 03:00 PM
It doesn't sound all that bad. I'd still rather they played it safe with him and shut him down.

I agree. Shut him down.
I would be more protective of Volquez as well. At this point I don't let him throw more than 100 pitches a game.

Reds1
08-25-2008, 03:40 PM
I'm totally for shutting him down. Heck, I was just telling a buddy I wouldn't let him or Volquez go more then 80 pitches anymore this season. I hate to see Cueto lose the last month of experience, but he's really grown and they can't take a chance.

Kc61
08-25-2008, 03:52 PM
I think the number of "shut him down" posts this year is rivaled only by the posts challeging Dusty's lineups.

Let's see what the doctors say in another ten days or so before making any decisions. If he's perfectly healthy, I can see using Cueto again this year, although with caution.

These players will only get better with experience. If Cueto is healthy there's no reason to have him sit around. If there's really no problem, I don't see why another two or three outings, with a strict pitch count, is a problem.

Of course, if there is any sign of a continued problem, or if the doctor feels it is risky for Cueto to pitch, he shouldn't.

And, yes, I think the defense is a major culprit in the pitch counts of these pitchers. Not really for this thread, but a high strikeout pitcher with a bad defense is a prime candidate for high pitch counts.

Big Klu
08-25-2008, 07:42 PM
I agree. Shut him down.
I would be more protective of Volquez as well. At this point I don't let him throw more than 100 pitches a game.


I'm totally for shutting him down. Heck, I was just telling a buddy I wouldn't let him or Volquez go more then 80 pitches anymore this season. I hate to see Cueto lose the last month of experience, but he's really grown and they can't take a chance.

Do I hear 60?


I think the number of "shut him down" posts this year is rivaled only by the posts challeging Dusty's lineups.

Let's see what the doctors say in another ten days or so before making any decisions. If he's perfectly healthy, I can see using Cueto again this year, although with caution.

These players will only get better with experience. If Cueto is healthy there's no reason to have him sit around. If there's really no problem, I don't see why another two or three outings, with a strict pitch count, is a problem.

Of course, if there is any sign of a continued problem, or if the doctor feels it is risky for Cueto to pitch, he shouldn't.

And, yes, I think the defense is a major culprit in the pitch counts of these pitchers. Not really for this thread, but a high strikeout pitcher with a bad defense is a prime candidate for high pitch counts.

I agree completely.

KYRedsFan
08-25-2008, 08:15 PM
Pitchers often have this hyperextension injury, unfortunately it can be a predictor for ulnar collateral disease.

Always Red
08-25-2008, 08:29 PM
I think the number of "shut him down" posts this year is rivaled only by the posts challeging Dusty's lineups.

Let's see what the doctors say in another ten days or so before making any decisions. If he's perfectly healthy, I can see using Cueto again this year, although with caution.

These players will only get better with experience. If Cueto is healthy there's no reason to have him sit around. If there's really no problem, I don't see why another two or three outings, with a strict pitch count, is a problem.

Of course, if there is any sign of a continued problem, or if the doctor feels it is risky for Cueto to pitch, he shouldn't.

And, yes, I think the defense is a major culprit in the pitch counts of these pitchers. Not really for this thread, but a high strikeout pitcher with a bad defense is a prime candidate for high pitch counts.

This is a great post.

If the Doc says "no go" then you don't go.

We had calls for shutting down Harang (last week), and now shutting down Cueto, both for the year. Heck, lets play the game without any pitchers at all (You can get hurt pitching- in fact- most pitchers do)! Medical diagnosis of pitching arms is better than it has ever been (and so is the fixing and rehab). If the docs say he's ok, then he should pitch.

Pitching more makes your arm stronger; yes, it's true, it really does. I realize there is point of overload, but the only way to build arm strength is to actually pitch. It's not like bullets in a bandoleer; no matter how much we want to believe that it is.

Nothing at all wrong with 115 pitch outings, as long as the high stress pitches are not the ones at the end of the outing.

If you think about it, most of Johnny's high stress pitches come in the first inning or so, and then he settles down and does a great job. This is reminiscent to me of so many great pitchers in the past- Seaver, Carlton, Marichal. If you were going to get to them, you had to get to them early, because they would settle into a groove and shut you down the rest of the way. Johnny Cueto's going to be a heck of a pitcher. If he hurts his arm, it's not anyone's fault.

Throwing a baseball overhanded is serious, dangerous business.

jojo
08-25-2008, 09:39 PM
Let's see what the doctors say in another ten days or so before making any decisions. If he's perfectly healthy, I can see using Cueto again this year, although with caution.

These players will only get better with experience. If Cueto is healthy there's no reason to have him sit around. If there's really no problem, I don't see why another two or three outings, with a strict pitch count, is a problem.

Of course, if there is any sign of a continued problem, or if the doctor feels it is risky for Cueto to pitch, he shouldn't.

And, yes, I think the defense is a major culprit in the pitch counts of these pitchers. Not really for this thread, but a high strikeout pitcher with a bad defense is a prime candidate for high pitch counts.

Since there is no real way to know for sure if he's healthy (a negative test X doesn't really mean there's nothing wrong) without more symptoms presenting, it's impossible to use him "cautiously".

Basically you're arguing that if a doctor can't find anything wrong, the Reds should pitch him until either the problem is made worse and easier to diagnose or a lack of further problems indicates all is well.

Shut him down because the educational value of 40 IP is far outweighed by the risk that those 40 otherwise meaningless innings might dramatically reduce the number of innings he can pitch in the future.

The Reds have absolutely nothing to gain by running him out there again this season. They have everything to lose.

Give his innings to a guy like Maloney with the hopes that he can use them to prove he's something akin to more than a turd.

Always Red
08-25-2008, 09:57 PM
Basically you're arguing that if a doctor can't find anything wrong, the Reds should pitch him until either the problem is made worse and easier to diagnose or a lack of further problems indicates all is well.



I would say exactly this about any pitcher as long as he is feeling right and the doctor gives him the OK to pitch.

If Cueto continues to feel "not right"- obviously, you do not let him pitch, until he feels right and the doc signs off.

Not to be snarky, jojo, but can you give me an instance of a single pitcher who has not had a sore arm?

PuffyPig
08-25-2008, 10:27 PM
Since there is no real way to know for sure if he's healthy (a negative test X doesn't really mean there's nothing wrong) without more symptoms presenting, it's impossible to use him "cautiously".



Based on that theory, once you establish a season is lost, every quality pitcher should be shut down.

OnBaseMachine
08-25-2008, 11:13 PM
Cueto has a strained elbow
Posted by JohnFay at 8/25/2008 9:20 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Sorry, I was slow on getting this posted. I've been traveling.

I just talked to Walt Jocketty. They only expect him to miss one start.

“That’s really good news,” Reds general manager Walt Jocketty said. “Any time you’re dealing with a young pitcher like that you’re concerned.”

Jocketty said it hadn’t been decided whether Cueto would even go on the disabled list. Jocketty was planning to talk manager Dusty Baker and pitching coach Dick Pole today to decide the options.

“I haven’t talked to them yet,” Jocketty said. “We’ll figure out what we want to do.”

Even though the injury is considered minor the Reds will proceed with caution when comes to Cueto, but Jocketty said shutting down Cueto for the year has not been discussed.

“But you have to be careful,” Jocketty said. “I don’t know if we’ll shut him down. But he’s in uncharted territory.”

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3af673431e-6faa-4d77-9dc8-15ef2790a9d4&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

Matt700wlw
08-25-2008, 11:26 PM
From Lance:
I asked Will Carrol, of Baseball Prospectus for his reaction to the diagnosis of Johnny Cueto.
Will's specialty is pitchers and injuries:
"NOT good. If he's hyperextending, that's a mechanical flaw that will have to be corrected. If there's an upside it's that it's not ligament (yet) and would point to fatigue as the biggest causative."

jojo
08-26-2008, 07:52 AM
I would say exactly this about any pitcher as long as he is feeling right and the doctor gives him the OK to pitch.

If Cueto continues to feel "not right"- obviously, you do not let him pitch, until he feels right and the doc signs off.

Not to be snarky, jojo, but can you give me an instance of a single pitcher who has not had a sore arm?

Can you name a more valuable commodity for the Reds than 5 years of Cueto?

At his age and with his ceiling, the appropriate reaction to an injury like "posterior strain of his right elbow possibly due to hyperextension of that elbow" is to over react. This is especially so given the Reds are circling porcelain this season.


Based on that theory, once you establish a season is lost, every quality pitcher should be shut down.

That's not a logical extension of my argument because it ignores the context of the argument.

Cueto is 22 with a high ceiling. If this was May, sure, let him try and work through something. It will be September when he next takes the mound. He's got his work in this season. It might be "just a sore arm". But I think telling a significant part of your future plans to "suck it up and work through it kid" so that you can battle the Pirates for 5th place might end up making your young guns look a lot like the Pirates young guns of a few years ago-chronically injured.

Coddle your young guns-especially when they're basically just taking meaningless target practice during this point in the season.

Falls City Beer
08-26-2008, 08:03 AM
I have no problem shutting him down at all. But I think all the folks saying "Shut him down" in this circumstance would be saying "Let him pitch" if the Reds were 3-4 games back of the Central lead. Is it any more right for him to pitch in the off chance the Reds might squeak into the playoffs one year than it is for him to pitch through it when they've been eliminated? It's all risk/reward, sure, but at what point do you draw the line?

As others have said, this kind of thing can't really be predicted and could be career-threatening at any given moment. Shutting him down now is actually pretty unlikely in preventing something that may otherwise happen next spring with the same degree of likelihood.

It's unfortunate, but the "science" of sports medicine is still very much in the leech-application/trepanning stage. Doctors really can't say with any kind of certainty the level of risk involved.

Roy Tucker
08-26-2008, 08:44 AM
I have no medical training, no pitching training, and didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, i.e. all my half-baked opinion.

Seems that big injuries are preceded by little ones. I remember Cueto tweaking something in his next to last start against the Cubs (Mark Mann, Dusty Baker, etc all came out to the mound to see what happened). Now this with his tricep tendon. I'm afraid if he keeps on, something is going to blow big time.

He's pitched a lot in the last 12 months. For a rookie pitcher, he's had a very good season. Let's let him rest up and heal up. Maybe pitch a little winter ball. See you in the spring, Johnny.

Spring~Fields
08-26-2008, 08:47 AM
I have no medical training, no pitching training, and didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, i.e. all my half-baked opinion.

Seems that big injuries are preceded by little ones. I remember Cueto tweaking something in his next to last start against the Cubs (Mark Mann, Dusty Baker, etc all came out to the mound to see what happened). Now this with his tricep tendon. I'm afraid if he keeps on, something is going to blow big time.

He's pitched a lot in the last 12 months. For a rookie pitcher, he's had a very good season. Let's let him rest up and heal up. Maybe pitch a little winter ball. See you in the spring, Johnny.

Good idea.

BRM
08-26-2008, 09:04 AM
Cueto is 22 with a high ceiling. If this was May, sure, let him try and work through something. It will be September when he next takes the mound. He's got his work in this season. It might be "just a sore arm". But I think telling a significant part of your future plans to "suck it up and work through it kid" so that you can battle the Pirates for 5th place might end up making your young guns look a lot like the Pirates young guns of a few years ago-chronically injured.

Coddle your young guns-especially when they're basically just taking meaningless target practice during this point in the season.

Exactly. Well said, jojo.

Although FCB brings up a good point. If the Reds were only a few back, would we still be clamoring to shut him down? Quite a few of us probably wouldn't be.

bucksfan2
08-26-2008, 09:17 AM
From Lance:
I asked Will Carrol, of Baseball Prospectus for his reaction to the diagnosis of Johnny Cueto.
Will's specialty is pitchers and injuries:
"NOT good. If he's hyperextending, that's a mechanical flaw that will have to be corrected. If there's an upside it's that it's not ligament (yet) and would point to fatigue as the biggest causative."

I didn't know Will Carrol was a MD.

rotnoid
08-26-2008, 09:18 AM
Exactly. Well said, jojo.

Although FCB brings up a good point. If the Reds were only a few back, would we still be clamoring to shut him down? Quite a few of us probably wouldn't be.

It's all about context though. FCB's point about risk/reward is spot on in this circumstance. The best possible reward we can hope for at this point in the year is, realistically, climbing out of the cellar and overtaking the Pirates. That "reward" certainly isn't worth the risk. In this case, letting that arm rest is the right choice. If the situation is different and the Reds are 3 games out, it's a different situation completely. I'll admit that in that case, I would absolutely not be in favor of shutting him down based on the medical advice. Obviously the team trusts the medical staff, or else they'd be replaced I'd hope, so in a pennant race if they say he's fine, you have to go with your best weapons.

In the current situation, there's no good reason to continue to pitch this kid though.

jojo
08-26-2008, 10:37 AM
I didn't know Will Carrol was a MD.

He's not a doctor and his opinion doesn't trump that of the guy looking at Cueto's medical file but he's a pretty knowledgeable guy concerning arm injuries, the consequences of particular injuries, how mechanics can effect arm injuries and historically what such injuries have meant to players' careers.

He authored an interesting book (Saving the Pitcher) which is both a quick and informative read for those interested in that kind of thing.

SMcGavin
08-26-2008, 10:41 AM
I didn't know Will Carrol was a MD.

Yeah, not to imply that Carroll knows nothing, but I'd really like to hear a sports medicine doc's take on this injury. Sports analysts talking about the severity of an injury with the implication that they are experts makes me pretty nervous.

westofyou
08-26-2008, 11:12 AM
He's not a doctor and his opinion doesn't trump that of the guy looking at Cueto's medical file but he's a pretty knowledgeable guy concerning arm injuries, the consequences of particular injuries, how mechanics can effect arm injuries and historically what such injuries have meant to players' careers.

He authored an interesting book (Saving the Pitcher) which is both a quick and informative read for those interested in that kind of thing.

And his father is an MD so he has that in-house training.

OnBaseMachine
08-26-2008, 11:48 AM
I have no medical training, no pitching training, and didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night, i.e. all my half-baked opinion.

Seems that big injuries are preceded by little ones. I remember Cueto tweaking something in his next to last start against the Cubs (Mark Mann, Dusty Baker, etc all came out to the mound to see what happened). Now this with his tricep tendon. I'm afraid if he keeps on, something is going to blow big time.

He's pitched a lot in the last 12 months. For a rookie pitcher, he's had a very good season. Let's let him rest up and heal up. Maybe pitch a little winter ball. See you in the spring, Johnny.

I read somewhere yesterday that Cueto was suffering cramps from dehydration in Chicago. You're right about him pitching a lot in the last year, that's another reason why I would shut him down now and tell him to not pitch in winter ball this season. I believe he's already volunteered to pitch in the 2009 World Baseball Classic so that makes winter ball an absolute no IMO.

RedsBaron
08-26-2008, 12:11 PM
It's all about context though. FCB's point about risk/reward is spot on in this circumstance. The best possible reward we can hope for at this point in the year is, realistically, climbing out of the cellar and overtaking the Pirates. That "reward" certainly isn't worth the risk. In this case, letting that arm rest is the right choice. If the situation is different and the Reds are 3 games out, it's a different situation completely. I'll admit that in that case, I would absolutely not be in favor of shutting him down based on the medical advice. Obviously the team trusts the medical staff, or else they'd be replaced I'd hope, so in a pennant race if they say he's fine, you have to go with your best weapons.

In the current situation, there's no good reason to continue to pitch this kid though.

Context is everything. I've joined in the criticism of Dusty Baker for using both Harang and Volquez in relief in an extra-inning game earlier this season as if it had been game seven of the World Series, but if it had been game seven of the World Series I would have had no criticism at all.

KYRedsFan
08-26-2008, 08:59 PM
Yeah, not to imply that Carroll knows nothing, but I'd really like to hear a sports medicine doc's take on this injury. Sports analysts talking about the severity of an injury with the implication that they are experts makes me pretty nervous.

He's likely suffering to some degree valgus extension overload syndrome. Valgus meaning he's stressing his ulnar collateral ligament (tommy john ligament), hyperextending his elbow which is often a normal part of the delivery. It's sort of an understanding of the final pathway for most elbow trouble in throwers. Early on it's spraining of the ligaments and rest is needed. It can go on the common reasons you hear pitchers needing sugery like bone spurs, loose bodies, and tommy john reconstructions. Haven't examined him or talked to those who did, but the description fits. It could very well be a "triceps strain" but that is often just what the athlete attributes it to because that is a lay bit of anatomy they somewhat can localize their pain to.

RedsManRick
08-26-2008, 09:05 PM
I didn't know Will Carrol was a MD.

There are a whole bunch of MDs who know a whole lot less about baseball related injuries than Will Carrol. Will would be the first to tell you that he's not a doctor, not a trainer, and can only talk in generalities unless he actually does have inside info. But he's hardly guessing and has quite the track record suggesting he's done his homework and knows what he's talking about. Sure, I wouldn't take what he says as gospel. But next to hearing the official response from the Reds' MD, it's as good a source as you'll find.

In any case, one just has to do a basic cont/benefit to see why sitting Cueto if there's any concern at all is the way to go. The dangers of blowing out his elbow causing potentially career altering damage vs the advantages of getting him some more experience and getting better pitching in 5 or 6 more games in a meaningless season. Hmmmm...

OnBaseMachine
08-27-2008, 11:15 AM
FOR CUETO? No decision has been made on who will start Saturday in Johnny Cueto's spot. Cueto is going to miss at least one start with a strained right elbow.

Bronson Arroyo, Sunday's starter, could move up a day. He pitches well on short rest. But then the Reds would need a starter for Sunday.

Baker has not yet discussed it with general manager Walt Jocketty.

"I have to talk to Walt," Baker said. "There's a couple of guys down there (in Triple-A). The doctor doesn't think he (needs to go on the disabled list). He only needs to miss one start possibly. We'll see."

Baker mentioned Matt Maloney and Adam Pettyjohn. Neither is on the 40-man roster.

"I'm not opposed to using a soft-tossing left-hander," Baker said. "(Pettyjohn's) got two years of 30-10 (record). I don't care where he's pitching. He's doing something right."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080827/SPT04/808270364/1071/SPT04

BRM
08-27-2008, 11:21 AM
"I'm not opposed to using a soft-tossing left-hander," Baker said. "(Pettyjohn's) got two years of 30-10 (record). I don't care where he's pitching. He's doing something right."


Nevermind that 4.63 ERA in AAA. The dude is a winner.

lollipopcurve
08-27-2008, 11:33 AM
He's likely suffering to some degree valgus extension overload syndrome. Valgus meaning he's stressing his ulnar collateral ligament (tommy john ligament), hyperextending his elbow which is often a normal part of the delivery. It's sort of an understanding of the final pathway for most elbow trouble in throwers. Early on it's spraining of the ligaments and rest is needed. It can go on the common reasons you hear pitchers needing sugery like bone spurs, loose bodies, and tommy john reconstructions. Haven't examined him or talked to those who did, but the description fits. It could very well be a "triceps strain" but that is often just what the athlete attributes it to because that is a lay bit of anatomy they somewhat can localize their pain to.

Interesting. If this is the case, then I'd think he should be shut down and held out of winter ball.

OnBaseMachine
08-29-2008, 05:51 PM
Cueto update, a couple of other things
Posted by JohnFay at 8/29/2008 4:54 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Johnny Cueto threw 20 pitches on flat ground today. He'll long toss tomorrow. He's tentatively scheduled to throw a bullpen Tuesday.

"I'm OK," he said. "I feel good. Nothing. No pain."

Cueto wants to pitch again this year. Will he?

"If he feels anything, he won't pitch," Dusty Baker said.

This is a pretty delicate issue. Before i'd turn Cueto loose, I'd talk to Edinson Volquez and Coco Cordero to make sure he's telling them he's OK also. Cueto's a very competitive guy.

I see the argument for shutting him down. But talking to Jeff Brantley the other day, he said he thought it would do Cueto good to have another outing or two -- provided he's healthy -- as far as confidence going into the offseaosn. Brantley said he suffered the same kind of injury a several times in his career.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3aefad568e-558e-424e-bdb6-f652c78240ce&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

OnBaseMachine
08-30-2008, 05:04 PM
From Hal McCoy:

Johnny Cueto played long toss before Saturday’s game and all went smoothly. The plan is for a couple of bullpen sessions to test his elbow, then a decision.

“He’s chomping at the bit,” said manager Dusty Baker. “If it wants to pitch and he is OK to pitch after the two bullpen sessions, why not let him pitch?”

I can think of quite a few reasons why not. He is 22. He has pitched 155 innings this year after 30-some in winter ball and after 20-some in spring training. He is approaching 200 innings, maybe already past it.

Now I check the standings and what do my wondrous eyes see? Twenty-seven games to go and 26 games out of first place. Why? What take a chance on a 22-year-old pitcher who has been exposed to enough big-leaague experience this year to know what it’s all about. He doesn’t need any more this year, does he?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/dayton/cincinnatireds/

Chip R
08-31-2008, 09:59 AM
I see the argument for shutting him down. But talking to Jeff Brantley the other day, he said he thought it would do Cueto good to have another outing or two -- provided he's healthy -- as far as confidence going into the offseaosn. Brantley said he suffered the same kind of injury a several times in his career.



That clinches it as far as I'm concerned. If Jeff Brantley and John Fay agree that he should pitch a few more times then I say shut him down.

OnBaseMachine
09-02-2008, 05:17 PM
Cueto Saturday, today's lineup
Posted by JohnFay at 9/2/2008 4:51 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Johnny Cueto is pencilled in to return to the rotation Saturday. Cueto will throw a side session Wednesday.

"He threw a bullpen on Sunday and looked pretty good," pitching coach Dick Pole said. "He threw hard. He threw good sliders."

Pole and the medical staff are confident Cueto's 100 percent healthy.

"He didn't want to come out of that game in Colorado," Pole said. "That was just a precaution."

"If there was something wrong, I'd have no problem with shutting him down," Dusty Baker said.

Baker sees pitching in September as a step young pitchers have to take.

"What if we're in the pennant race next year and he's never pitched in September?," Baker said. "It's part of getting to that pinnacle."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a62335863-7ca5-4d8e-870c-cf592447f16e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

I don't agree with this. I'd rather aire on the side of caution and shut him down.

paulrichjr
09-02-2008, 06:23 PM
Cueto Saturday, today's lineup
Posted by JohnFay at 9/2/2008 4:51 PM EDT on Cincinnati.com

Johnny Cueto is pencilled in to return to the rotation Saturday. Cueto will throw a side session Wednesday.

"He threw a bullpen on Sunday and looked pretty good," pitching coach Dick Pole said. "He threw hard. He threw good sliders."

Pole and the medical staff are confident Cueto's 100 percent healthy.

"He didn't want to come out of that game in Colorado," Pole said. "That was just a precaution."

"If there was something wrong, I'd have no problem with shutting him down," Dusty Baker said.

Baker sees pitching in September as a step young pitchers have to take.

"What if we're in the pennant race next year and he's never pitched in September?," Baker said. "It's part of getting to that pinnacle."

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=blog07&plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3ae57bcc87-152a-4f72-96fb-cc08b1f396efPost%3a62335863-7ca5-4d8e-870c-cf592447f16e&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

I don't agree with this. I'd rather aire on the side of caution and shut him down.

Yea pitching in Sept 2008 (a lost season) is just like pitching in a pennant race during the month of Sept. He is amazing...

Hoosier Red
09-02-2008, 08:18 PM
Yea pitching in Sept 2008 (a lost season) is just like pitching in a pennant race during the month of Sept. He is amazing...

No, in fact its a much lower pressure situation where a pitcher can learn to deal with pitching despite an arm tired from 5 months of work. In fact, it's really a pretty good idea for him to know how far he can go.

There's a reason why a marathon runner runs 20 miles(even though nobody's timing it, and it doesn't mean anything) before 26 miles. It's important to know how long you've gone and what it feels like.


If he's healthy there's really no advantage to him not pitching.

SMcGavin
09-02-2008, 09:46 PM
He's likely suffering to some degree valgus extension overload syndrome. Valgus meaning he's stressing his ulnar collateral ligament (tommy john ligament), hyperextending his elbow which is often a normal part of the delivery. It's sort of an understanding of the final pathway for most elbow trouble in throwers. Early on it's spraining of the ligaments and rest is needed. It can go on the common reasons you hear pitchers needing sugery like bone spurs, loose bodies, and tommy john reconstructions. Haven't examined him or talked to those who did, but the description fits. It could very well be a "triceps strain" but that is often just what the athlete attributes it to because that is a lay bit of anatomy they somewhat can localize their pain to.

Thanks! We had a couple of lectures on orthopedics this morning so it is really well-timed that I read this post today.

With all the innings he's thrown and his upcoming participation in the WBC, I would probably shut Cueto down. But by this point I am used to the Reds doing things that I would not do.