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View Full Version : Leauge Rules That 9 Year Old is Too Good



Edskin
08-25-2008, 10:15 PM
Very interesting....I don't like to hear about his Mom throwing a hissy fit, but I think I err on the side of the player/team/coach here. If he's good, he's just good, and the rest of the league needs to deal with it. It's called life.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=3553475

dougdirt
08-25-2008, 10:21 PM
I just read that. Beyond ridiculous.

Yachtzee
08-25-2008, 10:37 PM
It seems to me like this is one of those cases where the kid might benefit from being bumped up a level to play kids more in line with his skill level. I don't think its fun for anyone when you have a kid who is so much better than everyone else at that level that there's no real competition. It seems like there could be a much better resolution for this kid and for the other kids in the league that would be fair and benefit everyone.

Highlifeman21
08-25-2008, 10:52 PM
What is it about Connecticut?

First they wanna shut down a wiffleball field, now they're telling a 9 year old he's too good.

I'm moving...

NorrisHopper30
08-25-2008, 11:40 PM
Should a 9 year old be pitching like that anyways?

MasonBuzz3
08-25-2008, 11:44 PM
bump him up a level, or ship him to the Dominican and put him in the Reds Academy

dougdirt
08-26-2008, 01:20 AM
Should a 9 year old be pitching like that anyways?

pitching like what? Good?

Patrick Bateman
08-26-2008, 02:03 AM
He needs to be in a better league. I think there are legit points on both sides. A kid of the that talent will generally be allowed to play with the big boys, and that's where he should be, in a higher age group.

I can't imagine he'll improve much playing against such weak competition. Really sounds like more of a fun/introduction type of league.

GoReds33
08-26-2008, 07:27 AM
When I was younger, I was offered to play select baseball. I had to turn it down, because I wouldn't have the time. Maybe this family is in the same situation.

RANDY IN INDY
08-26-2008, 07:31 AM
40mph from a 9 year old is not uncommon, at least where we play. My son, who was 9 last season, threw the ball 45mph. Sounds to me like this kid is just in the wrong league.

PedroBourbon
08-26-2008, 10:42 AM
I think Roy Oswalt is "too good" against the Reds. He shouldn't play. ;)

westofyou
08-26-2008, 11:05 AM
The Great One was too good to.


Wayne was a classic prodigy whose extraordinary skills made him the target of jealous parents.

Gretzky's first team, at age six, was a team of ten-year-olds, starting a pattern where Gretzky always played at a level far above his peers through his minor hockey years. His first coach, Dick Martin, remarked that he handled the puck better than the ten-year-olds. According to Martin, "Wayne was so good that you could have a boy of your own who was a tremendous hockey player, and he'd get overlooked because of what the Gretzky kid was doing." The sweaters for ten-year-olds were far too large for Gretzky, who coped by tucking the sweater into his pants on the right side. He continued doing this after making it to the NHL.

By the age of ten he had scored 378 goals and 120 assists in just 85 games with the Brantford Nadrofsky Steelers. His play now attracted media attention beyond his hometown of Brantford, including a profile by John Iaboni in the Toronto Telegram in October 1971. By age 13, he had scored over 1,000 goals. His play attracted considerable negative attention from other players' parents, including those of his teammates, and he was often booed. According to Walter, the "capper" was being booed on "Brantford Day" at Toronto's Maple Leaf Gardens in February 1975.

justincredible
08-26-2008, 12:44 PM
Connecticut is also the state that has the mercy rule in High School football. Ridiculous.

BuckeyeRedleg
08-26-2008, 12:52 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is with 40 mph. That is not that fast, even for 9-years old. I understand that 9 is the first year for "kid pitch", but seriously 40 mph is not bringing it that hard. Maybe it's a misprint and he's going 50-60. I pitched to my 7 and 8 year old's this past season nearly that hard. The kids liked it thrown harder. In fact, they said it was easier to hit than when our other coach lobbed them in there (in a big arc).

Pitch much slower than 30 mph and the ball might not make it to the catcher. 40 is not a big deal.

Caveat Emperor
08-26-2008, 01:20 PM
This continued effort to baby kids bothers the hell out of me.

Razor Shines
08-26-2008, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is with 40 mph. That is not that fast, even for 9-years old. I understand that 9 is the first year for "kid pitch", but seriously 40 mph is not bringing it that hard. Maybe it's a misprint and he's going 50-60. I pitched to my 7 and 8 year old's this past season nearly that hard. The kids liked it thrown harder. In fact, they said it was easier to hit than when our other coach lobbed them in there (in a big arc).

Pitch much slower than 30 mph and the ball might not make it to the catcher. 40 is not a big deal.

I agree I started out umpiring this age. 40mph is just slightly above average. Honestly just about every team at that age had a kid who threw 40 or better. That must be just a sucky league.

Chip R
08-26-2008, 03:33 PM
I agree I started out umpiring this age. 40mph is just slightly above average. Honestly just about every team at that age had a kid who threw 40 or better. That must be just a sucky league.

:lol:

Ltlabner
08-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Self esteme is built by having the kids practice and learn how to hit this kids 40mph heater. Imagine how good the kids will feal when they knock the king off the hill.

Self esteme is NOT built by removing every single obsticale to the childs success and creating an artifical environment.

I'm tired of parents worrying about self-esteme. It's a byproduct, not an end goal.

Yachtzee
08-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Self esteme is built by having the kids practice and learn how to hit this kids 40mph heater. Imagine how good the kids will feal when they knock the king off the hill.

Self esteme is NOT built by removing every single obsticale to the childs success and creating an artifical environment.

I'm tired of parents worrying about self-esteme. It's a byproduct, not an end goal.


Having kids myself, I don't think self-esteem has anything to do with it. I sign my kids up to have fun and get some exercise. If they aren't having fun, I'm not wasting my money. I wonder if the league has had people stop bringing their kids or signing up for other leagues because they weren't having fun playing against this kid.

I don't think any kid finds it fun to go up against a kid who is throwing hard enough to strike everybody out, and at some point, I think its got to be no fun for the kid to not be challenged. Whether its sports or academics, I think talented kids should be encouraged to work with kids of similar skill level.

dougdirt
08-27-2008, 02:30 AM
Awesome lesson to teach the kids.... if someone is better than you at something, quit. Better yet, complain enough to get them kicked out so it makes you look better! Thats the ticket!

camisadelgolf
08-27-2008, 04:13 AM
I just can't believe this is a true story. If I hadn't already heard this story, if someone told me that this happened in the States, I wouldn't believe it. Maybe there's a big, important part of the story being left out.

Ltlabner
08-27-2008, 06:33 AM
Having kids myself, I don't think self-esteem has anything to do with it. I sign my kids up to have fun and get some exercise. If they aren't having fun, I'm not wasting my money. I wonder if the league has had people stop bringing their kids or signing up for other leagues because they weren't having fun playing against this kid.

I don't think any kid finds it fun to go up against a kid who is throwing hard enough to strike everybody out, and at some point, I think its got to be no fun for the kid to not be challenged. Whether its sports or academics, I think talented kids should be encouraged to work with kids of similar skill level.

Is this kid the only pitcher in the entire league? Do the kids ever face a different pitcher that is closer to their skill level?

My guess is no, there are other pitchers in this league. So an individual batter is facing this monster how many times a season? Meanwhile they are facing the normal kids how many times a season? So the kids face a tough pitcher once out of 7 other teams and normal kids the rest of the time. Big fricken deal. Serriously. This is one pitcher. To me, this is an excellent teaching moment that is being completely missed.

Sorry but if these kids "aren't having fun" over an entire baseball season becuase they get dominated from time to time then the parents have failed. Miserably. Horrifically. This league is allegidly a "developmental" league. Well, sports is supposed to be about body and mind and this is a perfect opportunity to help develop the kids mind.

Unless this is the only pitcher these kids ever face, then the "real" issue is some parents can't stand to watch their kids fail. They'd rather create an artifical environment so little Treveor can be a superstar than teaching a kid to either overcome or deal with defeat.

durl
08-27-2008, 08:48 AM
Self esteme is built by having the kids practice and learn how to hit this kids 40mph heater. Imagine how good the kids will feal when they knock the king off the hill.

Self esteme is NOT built by removing every single obsticale to the childs success and creating an artifical environment.

I'm tired of parents worrying about self-esteme. It's a byproduct, not an end goal.

I agree.

I read an interesting quote the other day that said, basically, that "self-esteem" has replaced "self-respect" as a goal by too many parents. There's a huge difference.

redsfanmia
08-27-2008, 09:36 AM
I am sure everyone who played little league played with or against a pitcher that was borderline unhittable for most players in the league. We never walked off the field because we could not hit the Harmon brothers we just took our lumps and tried to improve.

Yachtzee
08-27-2008, 10:10 AM
Is this kid the only pitcher in the entire league? Do the kids ever face a different pitcher that is closer to their skill level?

My guess is no, there are other pitchers in this league. So an individual batter is facing this monster how many times a season? Meanwhile they are facing the normal kids how many times a season? So the kids face a tough pitcher once out of 7 other teams and normal kids the rest of the time. Big fricken deal. Serriously. This is one pitcher. To me, this is an excellent teaching moment that is being completely missed.

Sorry but if these kids "aren't having fun" over an entire baseball season becuase they get dominated from time to time then the parents have failed. Miserably. Horrifically. This league is allegidly a "developmental" league. Well, sports is supposed to be about body and mind and this is a perfect opportunity to help develop the kids mind.

Unless this is the only pitcher these kids ever face, then the "real" issue is some parents can't stand to watch their kids fail. They'd rather create an artifical environment so little Treveor can be a superstar than teaching a kid to either overcome or deal with defeat.

Actually, we don't know the whole story because its written to be sensational and grab our attention. I keep waiting for other facts to come out, like there are only a few teams in the league or that the organization that runs the league has another league for the better kids and this league is the one for first-time players. Or maybe the kid's birth certificate will come out and show he's really 11. Of course it could be really that some other team is jealous they didn't get him and are raising a stink. We don't know all the facts, so I won't jump to conclusions on society as a whole based on this one article.

As far as parents' choices for their kids, that's their prerogative as parents. If they want their kids in a league that doesn't keep score and gives out juice boxes and animal crackers after every game and everyone gets a participation trophy, that's fine. But by the same token, if parents want their kid in a league where the kids face tough challenges from other kids so that they have to strive hard to win, that's fine too.

It's the same thing with school and academics. Some parents want to hold their kids back a grade. Others put their kids in special advanced programs to give them more challenges. Do you have a problem with that? Would you rather all the kids of the same age were put in the same class so that the kids who couldn't keep up with the smart kids had to take their "F"s and deal with it, even if it was only for one class, like Math or Reading? Would that be okay if they still had other classes where they were with kids that weren't that smart?

Roy Tucker
08-27-2008, 11:07 AM
Articles from the New Haven Register with more detail.... As with most stories, the truth lies somewhere between everyone's stories and also with things that aren't being said.

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20086538&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=624602&rfi=8

http://www.zwire.com/site/index.cfm?newsid=20090822&BRD=1281&PAG=461&dept_id=624602&rfi=8

I'm all for different level leagues for different reasons for playing. Participation is always key.

I've seen rec leagues where some talented kid comes in and smokes the opposition and its no fun. I've seen travel/select teams where parents have forced their lesser-talented kid onto the team and the kid gets repeatedly smoked and that's no fun either. In either of these cases, I don't think many lessons get learned besides what its like to get your brains beat in.

But what I wish for above all is for adults to be adults and resolve these things in an adult way. Once it get in the press and into the courts, it all get silly.

Tom Servo
08-27-2008, 11:29 AM
Let's sign him up, maybe he can replace Fogg in the rotation?

Caveat Emperor
08-27-2008, 01:45 PM
Would you rather all the kids of the same age were put in the same class so that the kids who couldn't keep up with the smart kids had to take their "F"s and deal with it, even if it was only for one class, like Math or Reading? Would that be okay if they still had other classes where they were with kids that weren't that smart?

I think the overall point is that, while it's good to put kids in an environment that allows them to maximize their potential and succeed, at some point the big bad world comes a-calling.

It's a cruel, tough, and generally unforgiving world out there. You're constantly being judged -- by potential employers, bosses, members of the opposite sex, clients, etc. You are rarely the best at anything you do, you're frequently placed into competition with people who are as smart/qualified or moreseo than you are, and any "allowances" or "considerations" made are generally made not on merit but on cronyism or nepotism. Life just isn't a fair place.

So, is it good for a kid to take "F" grades and keep dealing with it? No, probably not. But, is it OK to keep adjusting things so that the child keeps getting "A" and "B" grades against artificially inferior competition? Maybe not. Parents know their own children best and often know how best to get the most out of their children -- but sometimes (especially lately) it seems that the world has become so obssessed with letting children succeed that it has forgotten to teach them how to fail.

Yachtzee
08-27-2008, 02:21 PM
I think the overall point is that, while it's good to put kids in an environment that allows them to maximize their potential and succeed, at some point the big bad world comes a-calling.

It's a cruel, tough, and generally unforgiving world out there. You're constantly being judged -- by potential employers, bosses, members of the opposite sex, clients, etc. You are rarely the best at anything you do, you're frequently placed into competition with people who are as smart/qualified or moreseo than you are, and any "allowances" or "considerations" made are generally made not on merit but on cronyism or nepotism. Life just isn't a fair place.

So, is it good for a kid to take "F" grades and keep dealing with it? No, probably not. But, is it OK to keep adjusting things so that the child keeps getting "A" and "B" grades against artificially inferior competition? Maybe not. Parents know their own children best and often know how best to get the most out of their children -- but sometimes (especially lately) it seems that the world has become so obssessed with letting children succeed that it has forgotten to teach them how to fail.

I think kids figure that stuff all on their own. I can tell you they start dealing with that amongst themselves in preschool. It's human nature. Nobody's trying to tell these kids they can't lose.

The more I read about this, the more it sounds like the dispute is as much between team sponsors as it is about the kid. Those articles Roy linked to mention the team sponsor, Will Power, almost as much as the kid. The league has even offered to help the kid get on a select team or a travel team to play with kids at his skill level. I almost want to say that the other team in the league that was mentioned was last year's champ and the Will Power team went out and found themselves a ringer. The parents probably have some relationship with the sponsor that encouraged them to put the kid on that team. Other teams, especially last year's champ, knowing the kid is a ringer, complained and threatened to quit the league, so the league tried to step in and force a solution that ended up making a hash of things. This kid of stuff has been going on in youth baseball since I played and probably longer. It's just that we didn't have the internet to make a national case out of it.

Ltlabner
08-27-2008, 03:54 PM
It's the same thing with school and academics. Some parents want to hold their kids back a grade. Others put their kids in special advanced programs to give them more challenges. Do you have a problem with that? Would you rather all the kids of the same age were put in the same class so that the kids who couldn't keep up with the smart kids had to take their "F"s and deal with it, even if it was only for one class, like Math or Reading? Would that be okay if they still had other classes where they were with kids that weren't that smart?

There's a world of difference between education and playing baseball in a youth league. Most reasonable people would agree to that.

I don't have any problem with a parent that decides they want to hold their child back or have their child pushed into advanced classes. But that's totally different than a parent deciding the other kid should be moved because it isn't fair to their child.

I want to hold my kid back, no prob. I want your kid kicked out of class because he always gets A's and destroys the curve? Assinine.

*BaseClogger*
08-27-2008, 04:16 PM
I'm not sure I understand what the big deal is with 40 mph. That is not that fast, even for 9-years old. I understand that 9 is the first year for "kid pitch", but seriously 40 mph is not bringing it that hard. Maybe it's a misprint and he's going 50-60. I pitched to my 7 and 8 year old's this past season nearly that hard. The kids liked it thrown harder. In fact, they said it was easier to hit than when our other coach lobbed them in there (in a big arc).

Pitch much slower than 30 mph and the ball might not make it to the catcher. 40 is not a big deal.

Yeah, the league from my area sets the pitching machines at 36 mph for 7 and 8 year olds...

BRM
08-27-2008, 04:22 PM
Yeah, the league from my area sets the pitching machines at 36 mph for 7 and 8 year olds...

The rule for our league is the machine will be set between 30 and 38. We found that kids tend to hit better when it's set at the high end of that range, 36-38.

Jefferson24
08-27-2008, 04:23 PM
This is why I am involved with Little League. These independent youth baseball leagues have all this crap attached to them. Little League is not perfect but it is much better regulated than these youth leagues. I have been a board member for 5 years and hands down it is better organized, less political, competition friendly, and gets everyone involved better than any other league I have seen.

Our league redrafts the teams every year. Nobody pics who they play for. Teams are usually very equal.

If the kid lives in a little league district he should sign up next spring. Otherwise he had better find a travel team that doesn't mind him being good.

GAC
08-27-2008, 04:55 PM
It seems to me like this is one of those cases where the kid might benefit from being bumped up a level to play kids more in line with his skill level. I don't think its fun for anyone when you have a kid who is so much better than everyone else at that level that there's no real competition. It seems like there could be a much better resolution for this kid and for the other kids in the league that would be fair and benefit everyone.

What level can we bump Roy Oswalt up to? :p:

*BaseClogger*
08-27-2008, 06:45 PM
What level can we bump Roy Oswalt up to? :p:

the AL? :D

Yachtzee
08-27-2008, 07:42 PM
There's a world of difference between education and playing baseball in a youth league. Most reasonable people would agree to that.

I don't have any problem with a parent that decides they want to hold their child back or have their child pushed into advanced classes. But that's totally different than a parent deciding the other kid should be moved because it isn't fair to their child.

I want to hold my kid back, no prob. I want your kid kicked out of class because he always gets A's and destroys the curve? Assinine.

Well, it depends on the purpose of the youth league. There are all kinds of youth leagues out there. Some are geared toward more organized play and tournaments like classic youth leagues. Others are geared towards introducing kids to the sport and aren't really designed for overly competitive play. You choose to sign your kid up to the league that best meets your values. Parents have a choice. If they told the parents that they were signing their kid up for a "beginners" league and they put their kid in there anyway, who's fault is that?

Actually, I think if the kid is really that good and was playing with the other kids in a pick-up game, they probably would have decided how to handle it amongst themselves by either making the kid all-day pitcher or making him play outfield. I think kids tend to handle things more fairly amongst themselves because they don't want the other kids to quit if the game gets too lopsided.

That being said, I don't think that's the real issue. The more I read, the more it sounds like these are sponsored teams pulling the old time trick of going out and finding kids who are ringers to come in and give them a championship. The fact that they mention the sponsors' names almost as much as the kids' names seems fishy. I'm willing to bet the barbershop team got upset because "Will Power" found this kid who could kick their butts, and of course the barbershop team (which probably has a ringer or two of their own) got the other teams into a tizzy about this kid. I think this is more about the parents wanting to win than the kids.

GAC
08-27-2008, 07:54 PM
What amazes me with kids today entering Little League is just how "unprepared" they are, and their lack in HOW to play the game at all. It's like you're starting a square one with a majority of these kids.

So we've had to create more "leagues", depending on what developmental level your kid is.

My kids are all teenagers now, and I coached them for 3-4 years. I thoroughly enjoyed working with kids; but the above simply amazed me.

When I was growing up in the early-mid 60's (20th century, not 19th), playing baseball was already entrenched in a majority of boys so that by the time they were old enough to play in established leagues they knew, pretty much, how the game was played. A majority of the kids, overall, came in on a pretty level playing field.

Not so now. There is such a disparity with kids now entering leagues that those that had some sort of parental "investment" in playing the game with their kids prior have a leg up on the rest.

My younger brother has two boys (13, 8). The oldest is one of the top players in the city league. And the way the youngest is playing he will be too. I got the chance to throw the ball around with him at our recent family reunion. Wow! And it's all due to my brother being very involved with them at an earlier age.

So why wouldn't kids like this have an advantage over those who haven't had that involvement?

So know we're going to extremes like we're seeing here, or implementing some really stupid rules, in order to somehow level the playing field and make it fair for all the kids because we're worried about the emotional state (impact) it will have on some of these kids who aren't excelling like others are?

Ridiculous IMO.

And I hate Coach Pitch leagues. ;)

REDblooded
08-28-2008, 12:59 PM
ESPN.com has a good article on this...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=080827/kreidler&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab8pos1



Scott is not Cy Young; he's a kid who throws a good fastball against mediocre competition and struggles against better players. The organizing body that doesn't want him pitching anymore is not the "Satanic Summer League"; it's a group of volunteer parents who clumsily tried to clean up a gaping inequity between Scott -- a midseason import to his team, by the way -- and most of the other kids in what is clearly a developmental, low-wattage, newbie-strewn kid baseball enterprise.


And Scott is just a kid who shouldn't be playing in the LJB, the Liga Juvenil de Baseball de New Haven. Forget the legal ramifications for a minute and deal with the player himself. Scott is good enough to pitch in a much better league -- and that league, the Dom Aitro Pony League for all-star teams, is already available to him.


In fact, Scott plays in it when he isn't suiting up for the Will Power Fitness team in the LJB.



But in that other league, Jericho doesn't dominate.



And that, I suspect, is the real genesis of this story.


In the case of Scott, he already has been given that opportunity. As a member of that advanced, Dom Aitro Pony League, Scott is a good player -- but not the best. He is the No. 4 pitcher on his staff, good enough to go against the top players in the area, but not guaranteed of a blowout victory every time he steps on the mound.



So what is this kid doing in the LJB, a league that is made up significantly of kids playing baseball for the first time? Why were he and another Pony League all-star added to the Will Power Fitness team in midseason?




seems to me that the real isssue here is that there are a bunch of poofs who just want something to cry about.

NJReds
08-28-2008, 03:29 PM
Scott is not Cy Young; he's a kid who throws a good fastball against mediocre competition and struggles against better players.

Are they sure that this isn't Homer Bailey? ;)

AccordinglyReds
08-28-2008, 03:36 PM
Anyone else think the "leauge" would have been changed by now to "league"?

:p

Yachtzee
08-28-2008, 10:04 PM
ESPN.com has a good article on this...

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=080827/kreidler&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab8pos1











seems to me that the real isssue here is that there are a bunch of poofs who just want something to cry about.

So he IS a ringer. Go figure. I don't know who you refer to as the poofs, but it sounds like the kid's parents have some connection with Will Power Fitness. That's the only reason why I could imagine them making a big case out of this when they could have just bumped him up a league like they were offered. His parents and the folks running Will Power Fitness are the epitome of a frivolous lawsuit. Make a federal case out of something ridiculous and run to the papers.

Highlifeman21
08-29-2008, 04:44 PM
What's Danny Almonte doin' these days?

oneupper
08-29-2008, 04:47 PM
What's Danny Almonte doin' these days?

He grew up.

http://www.xomba.com/ex_little_leaguer_danny_almonte_plays_in_altus