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Scrap Irony
08-28-2008, 01:44 PM
I understand how well he's hit, but he's apparently strictly a corner guy with the glove. Corner guys are supposed to mash. As a middle infielder (or, as of now, a CF or C), Frazier's bat profiles as plus. (Thus, his prospect wattage ascends.) But, as a corner, he's no more than average.

IMO, Valaika's SS/ 2B bat (and possibly Stubbs' CF bat) are more advantageous than Frazier's.

Opinions?

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2008, 01:45 PM
Who says Frazier's bat only projects as average at a corner spot?

CySeymour
08-28-2008, 01:50 PM
Eventually, when Frazier gets called up and after a while optioned back, will Marty get to say: "Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!"

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2008, 01:53 PM
I went back and looked at some reports on Frazier to confirm that I'm not the only one who things his bat is just average at a corner spot. Kevin Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus says Frazier has true middle-of-the-order potential with his bat, no matter where he plays. Baseball America sees him as a 25 homerun guy, which I agree with. He's never going to be a superstar but he does a lot of things well. He reminds me a bit of Kevin Youkilis. I think he'll settle in nicely as a .375+ OBP/.500+ SLG type of player who will draw plenty of walks and hit roughly 25 homers... give or take a couple.

Scrap Irony
08-28-2008, 02:04 PM
That's great OBM, but it's not exactly middle of the order power. He's solid, sure, but not an A prospect, IMO.

dougdirt
08-28-2008, 02:07 PM
That's great OBM, but it's not exactly middle of the order power. He's solid, sure, but not an A prospect, IMO.

So you agree with what OBM said about Frazier and his roughly .875 OPS projection from a corner guy, but thats not an A type prospect? .875 is above average at every position in baseball, well above average for the corner outfield spots and for 3B. So unless Frazier moves to 1B, which is doubtful given Votto and Alonso, he is projecting from what you agreed with OBM on, to be well above average. How is that not an A type prospect?

BRM
08-28-2008, 02:11 PM
I think he'll settle in nicely as a .375+ OBP/.500+ SLG type of player who will draw plenty of walks and hit roughly 25 homers... give or take a couple.

I'll take it.

redhawk61
08-28-2008, 02:11 PM
That's great OBM, but it's not exactly middle of the order power. He's solid, sure, but not an A prospect, IMO.
sorry he doesn't have Dunn 40 HR power,
Votto 25 HR power
Bruce 30+HR power
Alonso 25-30 HR power
Frazier 25 HR power
Valaika 15-20 HR power
Phillips 25-30 HR power

......... I think will have plenty of power

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2008, 02:13 PM
That's great OBM, but it's not exactly middle of the order power. He's solid, sure, but not an A prospect, IMO.

An .875+ OPS isn't middle of the order? That's a great number five hitter to me. The Cubs have gotten an .859 OPS out of their #5 hitters this season. The Red Sox have gotten an .829 OPS out of the #5 spot. Brewers .775. Rays .845. Cardinals .858. I would be quite pleased with a .875 OPS and 25 homeruns out of the 5th spot in the lineup, or even 4th.

kpresidente
08-28-2008, 02:36 PM
An .875+ OPS isn't middle of the order? That's a great number five hitter to me. The Cubs have gotten an .859 OPS out of their #5 hitters this season. The Red Sox have gotten an .829 OPS out of the #5 spot. Brewers .775. Rays .845. Cardinals .858. I would be quite pleased with a .875 OPS and 25 homeruns out of the 5th spot in the lineup, or even 4th.

That's the minors. EE put up a .936 in AAA at Frazier's age.

OnBaseMachine
08-28-2008, 02:38 PM
That's the minors. EE put up a .936 in AAA at Frazier's age.

Of course it's the minors. I'm just projecting out what type of hitter Frazier appears to be.

SMcGavin
08-28-2008, 04:02 PM
Todd Frazier >>> Chris Valaika

LoganBuck
08-28-2008, 10:04 PM
That's the minors. EE put up a .936 in AAA at Frazier's age.

And so it begins.......

Why do Reds fans have to beat up our own prospects? Especially when it comes to debating pointless stuff like this. Another winter of this stuff will drive me crazy.

Can't we just be happy that we have a polished player with a plus bat?

bubbachunk
08-29-2008, 12:16 AM
How does his glove profile at the corner spots?

dougdirt
08-29-2008, 12:49 AM
How does his glove profile at the corner spots?

From what I heard recently, he isn't the best third baseman ever.

camisadelgolf
08-29-2008, 02:02 AM
A .750 OPS makes someone a middle of the order hitter in MLB. There's a big difference between a middle of the order hitter and a superstar. Not many people are saying Frazier is a future Gary Sheffield or Manny Ramirez at the plate. But if he can OPS at least .750, he will be more than serviceable at a corner position. If the Reds have three .750 OPSers hitting in the 3-5 holes, that would likely be a below average lineup. But if the Reds have an .800 OPSer sandwiched between two .750 OPSers, that's not a bad middle of the lineup as long as they're not embarrassing themselves in the other facets of the game.

PuffyPig
08-29-2008, 08:59 AM
A .750 OPS makes someone a middle of the order hitter in MLB. If the Reds have three .750 OPSers hitting in the 3-5 holes, that would likely be a below average lineup. But if the Reds have an .800 OPSer sandwiched between two .750 OPSers, that's not a bad middle of the lineup as long as they're not embarrassing themselves in the other facets of the game.


A .800 OPSer sandwiched between two .750 OPSers in the middle of the lineup would be one of the worst hitting teams in the majors, ala the current addition of the Reds.

camisadelgolf
08-29-2008, 09:23 AM
A .800 OPSer sandwiched between two .750 OPSers in the middle of the lineup would be one of the worst hitting teams in the majors, ala the current addition of the Reds.

You're right. I was looking at the wrong chart when I posted that. I thought that number was a bit low. :redface:

RedEye
08-29-2008, 12:35 PM
You're right. I was looking at the wrong chart when I posted that. I thought that number was a bit low. :redface:

I think what you meant to say was that a .900 OPSer between two .800 OPSers would make a decent middle of the order. Right?

redsof72
08-29-2008, 03:56 PM
Frazier should be a good defensive third baseman or first baseman. He was a below average shortstop. I have been told that some key people within the Reds organization feel that Frazier projects as a major league starter-grade player while Valaika projects as a utility type. However, Valaika hit a little better in Chattanooga than some might have expected.

Some things about Frazier that don't show up in his OPS. Number one, he is the best leader in the farm system. He is going to be the heart and soul of whatever team he is on and is the kind of guy that other players will go to war with. If you listen to many of the criticisms of the big league club in recent years, that is the thing that has really been missing, and Frazier will be a huge upgrade on that from day one. He will make every player around him better because of the energy and intensity he brings to the field every day and the respect he generates from his teammates. Beyond that, he has tremendous baseball instincts. While he has only average speed, he is a great base runner because of his ability to read and react instinctively. If I were to describe him with one word, the word would be "winner." He is the kind of guy that good teams need on their team.

camisadelgolf
08-30-2008, 03:00 AM
I think what you meant to say was that a .900 OPSer between two .800 OPSers would make a decent middle of the order. Right?

I meant two .800 OPSers between an .850 OPSer, actually. (I really suck at multitasking; it doesn't help that one of my 'tasks' is drinking beer.)

Anyway, if those are your 3-5 hitters, you'll need to bank on your other hitters being average or better hitters, but my point is basically this: If Todd Frazier becomes about a .270/.350/.460 hitter, he certainly won't be a star, but he'll be good, no matter which corner position he plays.

PuffyPig
08-30-2008, 11:03 AM
Anyway, if those are your 3-5 hitters, you'll need to bank on your other hitters being average or better hitters.....



And if those hitters are average or better hitters, they'll be the ones hitting 3-5.

camisadelgolf
08-30-2008, 11:05 AM
And if those hitters are average or better hitters, they'll be the ones hitting 3-5.

Is this a Dusty Baker joke? I don't get it.

gedred69
08-30-2008, 11:52 PM
From what I heard recently, he isn't the best third baseman ever.

Doug, you seem to be the guy that follows the prospects at the highest level. If Frazier is big time MLB potential, whom I've already heard (most likely from you), is no MLB SS, and now you question his ability at 3rd, where do you see him in the future? 2nd? OF? Trade bait?

dougdirt
08-31-2008, 12:29 AM
Doug, you seem to be the guy that follows the prospects at the highest level. If Frazier is big time MLB potential, whom I've already heard (most likely from you), is no MLB SS, and now you question his ability at 3rd, where do you see him in the future? 2nd? OF? Trade bait?

Corner outfield is likely what I am hearing, although I do think he could be servicable at third, he isn't likely to be a real average defender there. He has some problems with his throws from third, not really an arm strength thing, just slow with getting the ball moving.

redhawk61
08-31-2008, 12:35 AM
Corner outfield is likely what I am hearing, although I do think he could be servicable at third, he isn't likely to be a real average defender there. He has some problems with his throws from third, not really an arm strength thing, just slow with getting the ball moving.
So who is gone?

I wonder what Walt's list is with Yonder, Votto, Fraizer, Edwin, Soto, and Fransisco.

6 players for 3 spots, all who are already here or within 2 years.

my list of those guys goes in order of most untouchable
1.Votto
2.Alonso ETA late 2009
3.Soto ETA mid 2010
4.Fraizer ETA mid-late 2009
5.Edwin
6.Fransisco ETA late 2010

prediction Fransisco traded over the winter
Edwin traded at deadline, Fraizer takes over at 3rd for now
Alonso traded winter 2009, one of the lefty 1b's need to go, the leader and "vet" stays

2011 1b Votto, 3b Soto, LF Fraizer.

Screwball
08-31-2008, 07:00 PM
I very highly doubt Alonso gets traded.

chicoruiz
08-31-2008, 07:36 PM
I still think he'd be a terrific prospect as a catcher if the organization could sell him on the idea.

kpresidente
08-31-2008, 09:40 PM
I still think he'd be a terrific prospect as a catcher if the organization could sell him on the idea.

I said that in another thread as well. We know he's played some catcher at some point in his amateur career, so he's bound to have the fundamentals down. That means a lot, because you're talking about a different throwing motion, and a different mentality. Everything for a catcher happens within about a 2-3 foot circle. That's unique to the position. Having played a lot of catcher, I'll say 1B would be the easiest to transition from. That's where I played whenever I wasn't catching, and a lot of the skills are similar.

People have transitioned to catcher before. Brandon Inge was a pitcher as an amateur (I got a hit off of him in American Legion when I was 14 :)...and telling everybody that is pretty much the whole reason I brought it up! HA!).

But seriously, I wish they'd consider it, outlandish as it sounds. His bat could make him a perennial All-Star at catcher, and you have to admit, he does look like a catcher.

redhawk61
08-31-2008, 10:15 PM
He is said to have a plus arm at times