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View Full Version : Jay Bruce = Overmatched



TheBigLebowski
08-29-2008, 10:49 PM
He's just not capable of hitting major league pitching right now. He'll be below .250 soon, if he's not already. I know he's up here to stay but it's depressing to watch the guy whom most of us feel will be the corner of the franchise flail away like this. Hindsight is definitely 20-20 but it sure seems at this point like Bruce's 2008 would have been best spent in AAA learning some plate discipline and how to control the strike zone. While I'm here, please allow me to take a few more whacks at the dead horse that is Brook Jacoby. No one - NO ONE - on this team is hitting better than they were last year or producing at a rate one might expect given his minor league numbers or pedigree (and before someone references Chris Dickerson, I remind you it has only been a couple of weeks - Mr. Bruce was hitting .897 after his first three weeks here). I really, really hope he is not here next season. It seems so obvious to me, the rank amateur.

tommycash
08-29-2008, 10:53 PM
To me, he looks like a different hitter than he did when he first came up. He is now impatient and looks very frustrated. It seems to me like a certain coach (Jacoby) should be doing his job to make Bruce more relaxed and patient like he was at the beginning of the season. Its funny how Dusty could make himself look alot better if he dropped some dead weight from this staff by firing Pole and Jacoby, but he would still be Dusty.

757690
08-29-2008, 11:06 PM
He really only looks overmatched against lefties, and the stats reflect that:

Vs, RHP
.283 .317 .495 .812

Vs. LHP
.193 .258 .294 .552

I think that is to be expected for a 21 year old. I believe that was one of his main problems in the minors too.

BTW, I am not sure how a hitting coach can make a hitter more relaxed at the plate. He's a coach, not a therapist.

steig
08-29-2008, 11:09 PM
The Reds are 26 games out going into September. I think all of our players are overmatched at this point.

tommycash
08-29-2008, 11:10 PM
No I don't expect a coach to help a player in any way. Coaches should be held responsible for the players that they coach. Jacoby is the hitting coach, he should do anything he can to help Bruce and everyone else. I think that Jacoby needs to do more to help this offense out. I dont see how he has helped this offense this year. So if offense = bad it reflects on your hitting coach, and if pitching = bad then it reflects on your pitching coach.

TheBigLebowski
08-29-2008, 11:15 PM
He really only looks overmatched against lefties, and the stats reflect that:

Vs, RHP
.283 .317 .495 .812

Vs. LHP
.193 .258 .294 .552

I think that is to be expected for a 21 year old. I believe that was one of his main problems in the minors too.

BTW, I am not sure how a hitting coach can make a hitter more relaxed at the plate. He's a coach, not a therapist.

Not really a valid comparison, re: the hitting coach vs. therapist. It's all really part of the job. You don't think every hitting coach in every level of baseball has to approach the mental part of the game? Bruce is a free swinger right now who has some obvious holes in his swing. If this isn't the job of the hitting coach to correct, whose job is it?

kpresidente
08-29-2008, 11:27 PM
No I don't expect a coach to help a player in any way. Coaches should be held responsible for the players that they coach. Jacoby is the hitting coach, he should do anything he can to help Bruce and everyone else. I think that Jacoby needs to do more to help this offense out. I dont see how he has helped this offense this year. So if offense = bad it reflects on your hitting coach, and if pitching = bad then it reflects on your pitching coach.

Ugh, coaches really don't have that much of an effect. You can't coach up bad hitters into good hitters, it doesn't work that way.

Same for pitching coaches. This isn't little league. These guys already know how to play baseball.

757690
08-29-2008, 11:41 PM
Not really a valid comparison, re: the hitting coach vs. therapist. It's all really part of the job. You don't think every hitting coach in every level of baseball has to approach the mental part of the game? Bruce is a free swinger right now who has some obvious holes in his swing. If this isn't the job of the hitting coach to correct, whose job is it?

I agree with you and Tommycash completely. Jacoby needs to be responsible for the hitters that he is coaching, especially the young ones the Reds have. I definitely think Jacoby needs to make sure these guys are more patient, and to help fix any mechanical problems they hare having.

I was only referring to helping Bruce be more relaxed, and I was just trying to be silly. Again, I need a crash course in how to use the smiley faces. Sorry for the confusion.

BTW, a rigthy came in, and Bruce got his only hit of the game off of him.

TheBigLebowski
08-29-2008, 11:42 PM
Ugh, coaches really don't have that much of an effect. You can't coach up bad hitters into good hitters, it doesn't work that way.

Same for pitching coaches. This isn't little league. These guys already know how to play baseball.

No one is expecting Brook Jacoby to turn Corey Patterson and Paul Bako into .300 hitters. Unfortunately, they're both in a 12 round knock-down, drag-out fight with the Mendoza Line, which has never been that much of a hurdle for these two before.

RED VAN HOT
08-29-2008, 11:53 PM
Ugh, coaches really don't have that much of an effect. You can't coach up bad hitters into good hitters, it doesn't work that way.

Same for pitching coaches. This isn't little league. These guys already know how to play baseball.

It seems to me, however, that coaches do attempt to teach a philosophy of hitting. I may be imagining this, but in the case of the Reds it seems to be: be aggressive and look for a pitch you can pull. As for pitching, I can't really fault Dick Pole. A below average defense results in more earned runs as well as unearned ones.

ChatterRed
08-30-2008, 12:42 AM
While I'm disappointed in Bruce's inability to adjust and be more patient.......I will give him the benefit of the doubt since he is 21.

He looks very frustrated at the plate. I think next season cannot come soon enough for him.

realreds1
08-30-2008, 09:36 AM
Didn't Bruce say he'd talked to some guys like Berkman about hitting? If I remember correctly, Berkman said he would eventually make his adjustments and things would become easier?

Ghosts of 1990
08-30-2008, 09:53 AM
He'll be alright, although I don't like seeing him struggle. Don't kid yourself, he needed to be up here all along and playing. At 300 career AB, he's that much closer to 1000 career AB where we're going to see him really become a big time player, which most big time players do around that point.

Newman4
08-30-2008, 11:37 AM
The hitting coach is supposed to look for weaknesses in their guys and diagnose what they need to do to improve. Almost every guy on the team tries to pull the ball and jerk it into the seats. I haven't seen anyone consistently go the opposite way since Larkin was here. I am surprised Dusty doesn't just fire Jacoby and be the hitting coach. He'd be better at that than managing. Dick Pole is just there. He contributes very little and does nothing to improve the young pitchers. They have to bring in Mario Soto as a "consultant" because he doesn't have a clue. It would have been nice to have seen what Don Gullett could have done with some talent.

kpresidente
08-30-2008, 11:56 AM
The hitting coach is supposed to look for weaknesses in their guys and diagnose what they need to do to improve. Almost every guy on the team tries to pull the ball and jerk it into the seats. I haven't seen anyone consistently go the opposite way since Larkin was here. I am surprised Dusty doesn't just fire Jacoby and be the hitting coach. He'd be better at that than managing. Dick Pole is just there. He contributes very little and does nothing to improve the young pitchers. They have to bring in Mario Soto as a "consultant" because he doesn't have a clue. It would have been nice to have seen what Don Gullett could have done with some talent.
That's Dusty pushing the pull-hitter philosophy, not Jacoby. It shows up in the splits...

Look at EE, Keppinger, Dunn, Phillips, Freel and Bruce.

All these guys are showing bigger splits than they showed last season (drastically in the case of Kepp, EE and Freel) and Jacoby was coaching in 2007.

Oxilon
08-30-2008, 12:03 PM
First off, not only should Bruce have been up here since his May callup, but he could have been up here since the beginning of the season. He was hitting the cover off the ball in Louisville and there wasn't anything for him to learn or prove down there. And secondly, it's not Bruce's fault that he's surrounded by the likes of Corey Patterson and Paul Bako in the lineup. He's the best hitter in the lineup right now and he's never going to see any good pitches.

tommycash
08-30-2008, 12:52 PM
If coaches don't have much influence on players hitting or pitching or whatever, then why have them at all?

kpresidente
08-30-2008, 05:13 PM
He really only looks overmatched against lefties, and the stats reflect that:

I think that is to be expected for a 21 year old. I believe that was one of his main problems in the minors too.


FWIW, he had a 1.071 OPS vs. lefties in his stint at Louisville. Small sample though.

SarasotaFan
08-31-2008, 04:04 AM
You guys say he's over-matched, I just say that he's been figured out. Scouting reports are much more in depth in the major leagues than they are in AAA - word gets around and you have video.

Sure everyone has their rough spots, but when a major league pitcher finds a young hitter's hole - he's going to expose that as often as he can - especially with RISP

kpresidente
08-31-2008, 10:48 AM
If coaches don't have much influence on players hitting or pitching or whatever, then why have them at all?

You have to have somebody work with the players when their mechanics fail. But the mechanics of a swing or a delivery aren't complicated, so the coaches aren't generally providing some revolutionary info that's going to change a guys game altogether. Still, somebody has to watch the film for holes in a swing.

If a guy is out in front of the offspeed stuff, he might need somebody to point that out to him, and help him work through it. That doesn't mean the player doesn't know he needs to stay back on junk. It's still the player that's got to make the changes.

Just because everybody in an office knows how to sweep the floor, that doesn't mean you don't need a janitor.

tommycash
08-31-2008, 01:07 PM
You have to have somebody work with the players when their mechanics fail. But the mechanics of a swing or a delivery aren't complicated, so the coaches aren't generally providing some revolutionary info that's going to change a guys game altogether. Still, somebody has to watch the film for holes in a swing.

If a guy is out in front of the offspeed stuff, he might need somebody to point that out to him, and help him work through it. That doesn't mean the player doesn't know he needs to stay back on junk. It's still the player that's got to make the changes.

Just because everybody in an office knows how to sweep the floor, that doesn't mean you don't need a janitor.

No but if the janitor didn't do his job, you could replace him real quick. But if you paid him millions of dollars and then hired someone to keep him on track and help him improve if he needs it. And then that janitor does a bad job at cleaning, both the supervisor and the janitor would get punished.

The player does have to make the changes, but the coach is supposed to do his best to make that player better. If the guys that need help don't get any better, the coach has to be held accountable at one point. Just a thought or maybe we should just pay that coach to sit on the bench and ham it up. Both sides need to be held accoutable, so at what point is the coach held accountable.

DTCromer
08-31-2008, 05:44 PM
Who were the people here that told us not to worry about Bruce's lack of walks in AAA? Many people said that would change at the MLB level. Hell, even Adam Dunn is laughing at him for his K's.

ChatterRed
08-31-2008, 08:31 PM
3 walks today. I guess Jay took my advice. Good job. ;)