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redhawk61
08-31-2008, 03:39 PM
not trying to bash Dunn, just presenting what the new era Reds have done since their inception.

9 wins-9 losses, 76 runs scored-73 runs against, 4.2 runs/gm

ChatterRed
08-31-2008, 07:32 PM
Definitely an improvement.

redhawk61
08-31-2008, 09:05 PM
From Lance McCallister:

Reds record in 18 games before and since Dunn trade
Record prior to trade: 4-14
Record since trade: 9-9
Runs scored in 18 games prior to trade: 65
Runs scored in 18 games since trade: 76
Runs allowed in 18 games prior to trade: 115
Runs allowed in 18 games since trade: 73

How much of the bolded do you think is attributed to Dickerson's d in the OF?

kpresidente
08-31-2008, 09:27 PM
From Lance McCallister:

Reds record in 18 games before and since Dunn trade
Record prior to trade: 4-14
Record since trade: 9-9
Runs scored in 18 games prior to trade: 65
Runs scored in 18 games since trade: 76
Runs allowed in 18 games prior to trade: 115
Runs allowed in 18 games since trade: 73

How much of that do you think is attributed to Dickerson's d in the OF?

mmmm....those 18 games before Dunn got traded was probably the worst baseball we played all year. I think the team was in shock from the Griffey trade. Everybody knew Griffey could be traded, of course, but you're still talking about about a future HOFer who all of the sudden isn't around the clubhouse anymore. May have been tough to deal with from a mental standpoint.

Dickerson replaced Patterson in CF anyway, not Bruce, so we're not talking about a massive upgrade on defense at that position.

Ahhhorsepoo
09-01-2008, 06:25 PM
dickerson replaced dunn.. ftr.. also if you look at dickersons numbers on offense you see he is similar to dunns time in AZ.. and more than once has dickerson saved at least 1 run with his defense and cutting off balls in the gap.. something dunn couldnt have done to save his life..

also if you dont think watching small ball is more fun that homeruns.. you and i dont agree.....

scoring runs in 4 or 5 innings instead of 1 or 2 innings make the whole night alot better..

OUReds
09-01-2008, 06:50 PM
This is a measly 18 game sample skewed by a three game sweep against one of the few teams in the league as bad as we are.

It doesn't mean anything long term.

ChatterRed
09-01-2008, 11:44 PM
It's a small sample.

But going on what I have seen, it seems like the remaining lineup/young guys are starting to take hold of the team as their own............not as Dunn's or Griffey's team. Just my gut feeling. I see a youth unity.

The starting pitching has gotten better all season from the 4 primary starters. And Fogg hasn't been bad since coming back from the DL. The bullpen, was looking awesome, until recently. Our September schedule will tell alot. It's got alot of tough competition on it.

Kingspoint
09-02-2008, 12:14 AM
....and since Dunn was traded, Corey Patterson has had 55 plate appearances, reaching base 12 times while being caught stealing 4 of those 12 times. He scored 4 times.

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 09:11 AM
Small sample and cherry picked numbers. While the defense may be better, I can gaurantee you it's not 40 runs over the course of 18 games better.

The pitching has been much better which is probably 90% of the difference.

How about we wait till we've seen a full season (preferably more) before we go anointing saviors?

Lockdwn11
09-02-2008, 11:51 AM
Small sample and cherry picked numbers. While the defense may be better, I can gaurantee you it's not 40 runs over the course of 18 games better.

The pitching has been much better which is probably 90% of the difference.

How about we wait till we've seen a full season (preferably more) before we go anointing saviors?

But Why has the pitching been better? You don't think that the better Defense has anything to do with the pitching being better? I do.

maniem
09-02-2008, 12:18 PM
And, in the last 13 games, Reds starting pitchers have posted Quality starts in all of them except one. Yet the Reds have only gone 7-6 in those 13 games. Before the offensive "explosion" with the Giants, the offense had pretty bad, and still is. I'm all for finding other ways to win and not having to depend on the home run all the time, but I'm sick of having of starting pitchers throw well enough to win while the offense continues to hack away and make opposing pithers look like Cy Young. This offense needs more patient hitters. Dunn and Griffey have their flaws, but at least they knew how to work a count and make the pitcher work, something this offense sorely lacks now.

Ghosts of 1990
09-02-2008, 12:21 PM
I think its all a coincidence.

Ahhhorsepoo
09-02-2008, 12:27 PM
maniem.. did you just hear yourself say that.. what part of the combined 300 k's between griffey and dunn.. and the homerun only approach that used to plague this offense doesn't fall into your "i hate seeing a hack away and make opposing pitchers look like cy young".. dunn with how many times he strikes out you would think occur on balls that are just NASTY.. but half the time it was fast ball right down the middle...

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 01:11 PM
But Why has the pitching been better? You don't think that the better Defense has anything to do with the pitching being better? I do.

42 runs different over 18 games better? That's absurd to say that defense makes that much of a difference. 5 or 10 runs maybe, but 42???

Perhaps it's the fact that teams are hitting .270 against reds pitching in the 18 games since rather than .313. Perhaps it's the fact that they've given up 6 fewer home runs. Perhaps it's the level of competition they're facing.

Why has Dunn been better with Arizona? Streaks happen. Small sample sizes make for whacky numbers.

757690
09-02-2008, 01:19 PM
42 runs different over 18 games better? That's absurd to say that defense makes that much of a difference. 5 or 10 runs maybe, but 42???

Perhaps it's the fact that teams are hitting .270 against reds pitching in the 18 games since rather than .313. Perhaps it's the fact that they've given up 6 fewer home runs. Perhaps it's the level of competition they're facing.

Why has Dunn been better with Arizona? Streaks happen. Small sample sizes make for whacky numbers.

I think Lockdown was just saying that defense had something to do with it, not everything.
I think defense is just as logical a reason as all the ones you mentioned. I doubt anyone would argue that 42 runs in 18 games is the result of any one factor.

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 01:43 PM
I think Lockdown was just saying that defense had something to do with it, not everything.
I think defense is just as logical a reason as all the ones you mentioned. I doubt anyone would argue that 42 runs in 18 games is the result of any one factor.

Well I bet it has something to do with it, but I'm not going to leave it at that. There are much stronger factors in play here than 1 positional upgrade in the field.

It's like building an airplane with jet engines and rubber bands and saying the rubber bands make it go.

Ahhhorsepoo
09-02-2008, 02:25 PM
dont argue with them.. they claim defense doesn't cost ANY runs.. and the "difference" between a gg caliber OF'er.. and a scum on the bottom of the barrel OF'er is no more than 5 runs a year..

OUReds
09-02-2008, 02:56 PM
Not sure who "they" are, but I'd wager that's a gross misrepresentation of "their" position.

I do think that getting excited over a defensive improvement in left field while Keppinger and EE still play SS and 3rd base is not seeing the forest for the trees.

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 03:07 PM
dont argue with them.. they claim defense doesn't cost ANY runs.. and the "difference" between a gg caliber OF'er.. and a scum on the bottom of the barrel OF'er is no more than 5 runs a year..

Over the course of the year, in LF, 40 runs at the extreme (last year Dunn vs. last year Holliday was 37).

Ahhhorsepoo
09-02-2008, 04:15 PM
but those 40 runs cant be made up by a guy who gets 90 runs and 90 rbis... ohh my..

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 04:18 PM
but those 40 runs cant be made up by a guy who gets 90 runs and 90 rbis... ohh my..

What?

Ahhhorsepoo
09-02-2008, 04:32 PM
the argument by many here was that a guy who gets between 85 and 90 runs/rbis cant make up for adam dunns offense by being great defensively.. because it only costs an extra "5 or 10 runs" a year..

DannyB
09-02-2008, 05:15 PM
....and since Dunn was traded, Corey Patterson has had 55 plate appearances, reaching base 12 times while being caught stealing 4 of those 12 times. He scored 4 times.

So we obviously traded the wrong guy

maniem
09-02-2008, 05:56 PM
maniem.. did you just hear yourself say that.. what part of the combined 300 k's between griffey and dunn.. and the homerun only approach that used to plague this offense doesn't fall into your "i hate seeing a hack away and make opposing pitchers look like cy young".. dunn with how many times he strikes out you would think occur on balls that are just NASTY.. but half the time it was fast ball right down the middle...

Again, not sure what strikeouts have to do with anything. Again, Dunn had his flaws, but his plate approach is not one of them. There have been way too many 6 or 7 pitch innings by opposing pitchers the last few weeks. When Brandon Backe, he of the 5+ ERA, basically shuts you down, something just isn't right. The name of the game is getting on base, which gives you much better chances to score. Very simple. It isn't a secret as to why the Cubs are dominating the league right now. Look at their starting 8 position players, everyone of them has a solid OBP, and a team OBP of .357. The Reds only have two guys now that really have a clue on how to get on base, EdE and Votto. A team OBP of .319 just isn't going to cut it, and I hate to think what it's been since Dunn has left. Again, getting on base is only half the battle, getting them in obviously is the key. But the more guys on base, the better chance of getting them in becomes.

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 07:19 PM
the argument by many here was that a guy who gets between 85 and 90 runs/rbis cant make up for adam dunns offense by being great defensively.. because it only costs an extra "5 or 10 runs" a year..

Well that's comparing apples (runs, rbis and other team component stats) to FRAA (an individual, team independent stat).

Surely Ruben Sierra in 1993 would replace Dunn's production given that frame of logic....

redsbuckeye
09-02-2008, 07:20 PM
So we obviously traded the wrong guy

Not necessarily, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with trading Dunn.

The return leaves something to be desired however.

Funny, as I'm typing this, Dickerson just nailed a homer.

gilpdawg
09-02-2008, 09:24 PM
AhhHorsecrap, Dunn is gone. You got what you wanted. If you think this team is better RIGHT NOW because of it, then I want some of what you are drinking. Does it have the potential to work out positively in the future? Of course it does. Right now, is this team better over the long haul? NO. 18 games is a tiny sample size. Proves NOTHING.

Ahhhorsepoo
09-02-2008, 11:28 PM
had we gotten rid of dunn 2 years ago and signed soriano like i wanted tho................

sounds likes you are sour dunn isnt here..

gilpdawg
09-02-2008, 11:50 PM
had we gotten rid of dunn 2 years ago and signed soriano like i wanted tho................

sounds likes you are sour dunn isnt here..
You rail on Dunn's D and you wanted Soriano? Soriano has improved defensively since he's been in Chicago, but his outfield days with the Nats were terrible. And I don't know what makes you think I'm sour Dunn's not here. I said the jury's still out. It depends on what Walt does in the offseason. If we don't acquire a bat, consider it a lost season next year. The better outfield D isn't enough to make up for the lost offense in this lineup as currently constructed.

Lockdwn11
09-03-2008, 12:14 AM
I think Lockdown was just saying that defense had something to do with it, not everything.
I think defense is just as logical a reason as all the ones you mentioned. I doubt anyone would argue that 42 runs in 18 games is the result of any one factor.

Thats all I was saying. A good defense makes your pitching look better. Does it acount for all 42 runs, of course not.