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kpresidente
09-05-2008, 05:23 PM
There's a thread in ORG about the Reds being interested in Matt Holliday.

I remember hearing a rumor about the time Dunn was traded that said the Reds were going to trade Johnny Cueto, Juan Francisco and another prospect (Roenicke would be my guess) for Holliday in the offseason.

Basically, you end up upgrading Dunn with Holliday and downgrading Cueto with Owings.

So what does the Sun Deck think? Would anybody go for that trade?

TC81190
09-05-2008, 05:33 PM
I might take that, IF the team resigns Holliday to a multiyear deal.

redhawk61
09-05-2008, 06:16 PM
I would not trade Cueto, even straight up.... now if Homer comes up and shows he has turned a corner, then I would be a little more forgiving if they traded Cueto as I like the prospects of Homer having a longer healthier career than Cueto
my big question if Holliday is aquired becomes, what happens when Alonso is ready...?

However I will make a prediction of

Bailey
Fraizer
Lecure

Mitri
09-05-2008, 07:43 PM
No way any of Cueto, Volquez or Bruce should be offered to anyone, anywhere.

Everyone else should be on the table. A guy like Holliday, who the Rockies control for only one more season and who is still considered somewhat of a fluke considering he's played in Denver for half of his career, could be had for a considerably lesser sum than guys going into the market this year like CC and Tex.

I think it is very realistic that Jocketty tries to put together a package featuring one of either Votto, Edwin, Phillips or Harang, with some second-tier prospects, and gets him to agree to a 5 year deal.

I personally would love to see Holliday in Cincinnati. I think he'd rake in GAB and a defensive OF of Holliday-Dickerson-Bruce would help the staff out tremendously.

Stephenk29
09-05-2008, 08:04 PM
Most people in the ORG are hating on Holliday too which I don't totally understand. I think the Road Splits are being blown up a lot, and they worry about him moving out of Coors. However, GABP isn't exactly a pitcher's park. There wouldn't be as many games in AT&T, and Petco either. He's exactly what we need, power hitting righty bat....EVERYONE knows this. Only problem is we have to get him into a multi year deal. Hello Scott Boras.

redhawk61
09-05-2008, 08:12 PM
Most people in the ORG are hating on Holliday too which I don't totally understand. I think the Road Splits are being blown up a lot, and they worry about him moving out of Coors. However, GABP isn't exactly a pitcher's park. There wouldn't be as many games in AT&T, and Petco either. He's exactly what we need, power hitting righty bat....EVERYONE knows this. Only problem is we have to get him into a multi year deal. Hello Scott Boras.
Yeah I don't get the hate either. Just look at his numbers, they are just down right sick and show the talent the man has. Some players have inflated numbers b/c of their ballpark and they look like solid ML's. But you don't put up the numbers Holliday does b/c of just a ballpark. The man is one of the most feared hitters in the league, and in my book is right up there with the Berkman's and Pujouls' of the world. He would change the entire dynamics of our lineup, and would automatically give us one of the best "O's" in the game.

just think of how much Holliday in the 3 hole could help Brandon if Brandon was placed in the 2 hole. His OBP isn't there right now. But I wouldn't bet against Brandon putting up a .350 OBP next year if Holliday was behind him.

Just imagine this lineup card:

Dickerson CF
Phillips 2b
Holliday LF
Votto 1b
EE 3b
Bruce RF
Whomever at SS
Hanigan C

thats a division winning lineup

757690
09-05-2008, 08:15 PM
Most people in the ORG are hating on Holliday too which I don't totally understand. I think the Road Splits are being blown up a lot, and they worry about him moving out of Coors. However, GABP isn't exactly a pitcher's park. There wouldn't be as many games in AT&T, and Petco either. He's exactly what we need, power hitting righty bat....EVERYONE knows this. Only problem is we have to get him into a multi year deal. Hello Scott Boras.

That is the key. Jocketty does have a history of acquiring players with a year left and then signing them long term. But the is not St. Louis, so I would feel more comfortable if they signed Holliday long term right after they acquire him, if they do acquire him.

Mitri
09-05-2008, 08:28 PM
Well inserting Holliday in the lineup isn't exactly going to make next year's team a contender. Still a helluva lot of work to be done with the bullpen, the bench, catcher, fifth starter. But what it will do is take loads of pressure off of Mr. Jay Bruce, which could make a world of difference with his progress and with the offensive progress of the team.

Holliday, if combined with the right types of offensive players surrounding him, could be the difference between a bottom-feeding offense and a top-5 in the league type offense, just by making the guys around him better. Now you have to figure at least one of Phillips or Votto will be going the other way in a trade, but the thought of pairing him with Bruce has me actually excited about the next few years. I can dream anyway.

TC81190
09-05-2008, 08:34 PM
Well inserting Holliday in the lineup isn't exactly going to make next year's team a contender. Still a helluva lot of work to be done with the bullpen, the bench, catcher, fifth starter. But what it will do is take loads of pressure off of Mr. Jay Bruce, which could make a world of difference with his progress and with the offensive progress of the team.

Holliday, if combined with the right types of offensive players surrounding him, could be the difference between a bottom-feeding offense and a top-5 in the league type offense, just by making the guys around him better. Now you have to figure at least one of Phillips or Votto will be going the other way in a trade, but the thought of pairing him with Bruce has me actually excited about the next few years. I can dream anyway.
I like our chances, if that were to happen. Most teams don't have an offensive force or even an average player at catcher, especially the Jocketty model. He signed Mike Matheny in StL for a reason. They're going to get a catch and throw guy to be back there, and I'm guessing it'll be Hanigan. The 5th starter spot is a revolving door on most teams, and we might have leverage there with a surplus of young players that can fill that spot. SS and maybe 3B if Edwin can't stay consistent are the only real weaknesses on this team (that is, assuming we get Holliday) in this scenario.

Mitri
09-05-2008, 08:35 PM
And he seems to have the type of personality and style of play that would play well in Cincinnati: hard-working baseball-lifer, high average run producer, "knows how to play the game"-type, limits mistakes.

It's unfortunate we have to think this way, but if Walt's going to spend a fortune on a guy these next five years, it better be someone the city can latch onto.

redhawk61
09-05-2008, 08:52 PM
Well inserting Holliday in the lineup isn't exactly going to make next year's team a contender. Still a helluva lot of work to be done with the bullpen, the bench, catcher, fifth starter. But what it will do is take loads of pressure off of Mr. Jay Bruce, which could make a world of difference with his progress and with the offensive progress of the team.

Holliday, if combined with the right types of offensive players surrounding him, could be the difference between a bottom-feeding offense and a top-5 in the league type offense, just by making the guys around him better. Now you have to figure at least one of Phillips or Votto will be going the other way in a trade, but the thought of pairing him with Bruce has me actually excited about the next few years. I can dream anyway.
Phillips nor Votto will be in a deal if it happens, no inside source, but for the control we have over those two and the production they bring it wouldn't make sense. It will be pitching so think Arroyo, Bailey, Thompson, maybe even Harang as the center of the deal.

I still think if a deal ever were to be done it would be one with Bailey and Fraizer plus 1-2 more

Stephenk29
09-05-2008, 08:53 PM
Bailey and Fraizer plus 1-2 more

would never think twice about it.

TC81190
09-05-2008, 08:56 PM
would never think twice about it.
ORG says it'll be Harang and Frazier +.

roby
09-05-2008, 11:04 PM
ORG says it'll be Harang and Frazier +.

Refuse to send Harang and talk them into Arroyo and Bailey instead.

Orodle
09-05-2008, 11:16 PM
I'm not for trading Cueto at all. Pitching wins championships.

RED VAN HOT
09-05-2008, 11:28 PM
Refuse to send Harang and talk them into Arroyo and Bailey instead.

First of all, I agree with the many who believe that this does not make sense without a multi-year deal for Holliday. MH will make $13.5M in 2009. Since Boras is his agent, I suspect the Reds would be looking at 4-5 years in the high teens. Looking at MH's home/away splits, we can project about .280 with 20-25 HRs. He would provide superior defense, speed, and stolen base potential.

For trade, it makes sense that in order to take on a contract of that magnitude, the Reds would need to trade one. Cueto makes no sense. He has middle of the rotation potential is under team control. If I recall, breaking ball pitchers have fared poorly in Colorado. I think they probably have some painful memories of overpaying for Mike Hampton and Darryl Kile. That would eliminate Arroyo. Thus, Harang makes the most sense. The Reds would actually be thin at starting pitcher after giving up Harang. I can't see giving up another one. As for providing a position player instead, the Reds are deeper at 3B than any other position. Frazier could rake in Coors. The Harang/Frazier deal makes the most sense to me.

TC81190
09-05-2008, 11:59 PM
First of all, I agree with the many who believe that this does not make sense without a multi-year deal for Holliday. MH will make $13.5M in 2009. Since Boras is his agent, I suspect the Reds would be looking at 4-5 years in the high teens. Looking at MH's home/away splits, we can project about .280 with 20-25 HRs. He would provide superior defense, speed, and stolen base potential.

For trade, it makes sense that in order to take on a contract of that magnitude, the Reds would need to trade one. Cueto makes no sense. He has middle of the rotation potential is under team control. If I recall, breaking ball pitchers have fared poorly in Colorado. I think they probably have some painful memories of overpaying for Mike Hampton and Darryl Kile. That would eliminate Arroyo. Thus, Harang makes the most sense. The Reds would actually be thin at starting pitcher after giving up Harang. I can't see giving up another one. As for providing a position player instead, the Reds are deeper at 3B than any other position. Frazier could rake in Coors. The Harang/Frazier deal makes the most sense to me.
I imagine Holliday would gain HR playing in GABP. He'd lose a few 2B, some would turn into outs, others HR, and the BA would go down some, but I think he'd do just fine here.

Ghosts of 1990
09-06-2008, 07:30 AM
We trade Bruce, and I'll never support this franchise again. Never.

ChatterRed
09-06-2008, 12:19 PM
I think Cueto has the most upside of any of the starters. He's only 22 and sometimes looks like our best starter. He's everything Homer Bailey isn't.

I really don't want to trade any of our starters. I wish we could sign Lowe as a free agent and create the best starting pitching staff in mlb, overall. Maybe let Bailey come out of the pen like Jose Rijo did early in his career.

I hope the Reds work hard to bolster the starting pitching, and re-sign some of our bullpen (the good ones), because I think the youngsters in the field are coming along.

kpresidente
09-06-2008, 12:49 PM
Here's some perspective...

The Rockies were looking at sending Holliday and Brian Fuentes to Philadelphia earlier this year for Victorino, Carlos Carrasco (think Darryl Thompson) and Lou Marson (think Todd Frazier).

That deal fell through, but it was widely publicized so it's more legit than what I read about Cueto.

Gives an idea of what they're looking for, at least.

To be honest, I think something like Freel, Thompson and Frazier would equal the Phillies deal. Freel isn't Victorino, but he's close, and we're not asking for Fuentes. Of course, that deal fell through.

Anyway, if we're dealing for one-year rentals, I'd rather trade for Bedard than Holliday.

fadetoblack2880
09-06-2008, 01:42 PM
Holliday would be great, but he won't solve all the problems. Still need a catcher and center fielder. Dickerson is unproven, so I wouldn't call him the answer. He may continue at this pace, but after less than one month in the league, I hesitate calling him the opening day CF next year. I say package Encarnacion in a deal for a catcher, i.e. SF's Molina. I'm all for sending Freel off, see what you can get for him too. Remember, Alonso plays 3b also.

redhawk61
09-06-2008, 01:56 PM
Holliday would be great, but he won't solve all the problems. Still need a catcher and center fielder. Dickerson is unproven, so I wouldn't call him the answer. He may continue at this pace, but after less than one month in the league, I hesitate calling him the opening day CF next year. I say package Encarnacion in a deal for a catcher, i.e. SF's Molina. I'm all for sending Freel off, see what you can get for him too. Remember, Alonso plays 3b also.
I see the bolded to be a very real possibility.

Ghosts of 1990
09-06-2008, 01:58 PM
If I'm the Reds I see what Edwin and a young P can get us as far as Holliday. I don't think I'd trade Todd Frazier cause I think he can be the middle part of a Bruce-Votto sandwich in 2 years.

RED VAN HOT
09-06-2008, 03:12 PM
I can't recall a thread in which I have been in agreement with so many posters. I think we are all afraid the Reds will do something stupid like a one year rental or a significant depletion of a farm system that is beginning to bear fruit.

I like Holliday, but Boras scares the hell out of me. I think, however, that WJ is too smart to overpay in either a trade or a contract.

I(heart)Freel
09-06-2008, 04:10 PM
I can see Cueto in a deal for Holliday IF and only IF Walt already has designs on signing a Lowe type from the free agent pool. You do those two things and I would be willing to take my chances with Dickerson/Freel in centerfield and Hanigan behind the dish.

But I agree that spinning Edwin off for something valuable (sliding Kepp into third base) wouldnt be bad either.

Either way... fun offseason ahead!

redhawk61
09-06-2008, 04:29 PM
I can see Cueto in a deal for Holliday IF and only IF Walt already has designs on signing a Lowe type from the free agent pool. You do those two things and I would be willing to take my chances with Dickerson/Freel in centerfield and Hanigan behind the dish.

But I agree that spinning Edwin off for something valuable (sliding Kepp into third base) wouldnt be bad either.

Either way... fun offseason ahead!
Kepp at 3rd would be a bad idea, his bat does not play there, he is not an everyday player

Stephenk29
09-06-2008, 04:49 PM
I would think Holliday projects a little more than 280 with 25 bombs? He's a career 320 hitter and he's having a down year, he was hurt for awhile.

310, 30, 100, 100 seems about right?

No he doesn't answer all the Reds questions, but you have to start somewhere. We've already got a nice start with the young guys.

ChatterRed
09-06-2008, 06:09 PM
Kepp at 3rd would be a bad idea, his bat does not play there, he is not an everyday player

Why do people think Keppinger isn't an everyday player?

He's coming off an injury. Give him a break.

redhawk61
09-06-2008, 06:19 PM
Why do people think Keppinger isn't an everyday player?

He's coming off an injury. Give him a break.
the career .736 OPS and .661 OPS this year w/o out having above average defense or speed to make up for it.

RED VAN HOT
09-06-2008, 07:12 PM
I would think Holliday projects a little more than 280 with 25 bombs? He's a career 320 hitter and he's having a down year, he was hurt for awhile.

310, 30, 100, 100 seems about right?



Possibly. I thought we might be overestimating his stats based on Coors numbers. I was attempting to provide a rough estimate based on past performance. Over his career he has averaged about 29.3 HR per 600 AB season. On the road, he has averaged only 10.15 HR per season. Further, his road BA is quite a bit lower than it is at Coors, .278 vs .362. On the other hand, he is just coming into his most productive years. Also, he may thrive in GABP or in hitting between Votto and Bruce. Estimating these effects would require a real baseball man.

kpresidente
09-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Possibly. I thought we might be overestimating his stats based on Coors numbers. I was attempting to provide a rough estimate based on past performance. Over his career he has averaged about 29.3 HR per 600 AB season. On the road, he has averaged only 10.15 HR per season. Further, his road BA is quite a bit lower than it is at Coors, .278 vs .362. On the other hand, he is just coming into his most productive years. Also, he may thrive in GABP or in hitting between Votto and Bruce. Estimating these effects would require a real baseball man.

Coors field and GABP rank 3rd and 4th respectively as far as giving up home runs, and 2nd and 13th in terms of hits. So if you're accounting for his home/road splits you need to take into account that he's going from a hitters park to a hitters park.

Also, his 3-year splits show 42 HRs/600 ABs at home (translates to 40 at GABP) and 21 on the road. Batting average is .370 (translates to .338 at GABP) vs. .282.

Over a full season, that averages out to .310 with 32 HRs. The OBP and SLG are almost exactly what we got from Dunn, although I'd prefer Holliday a little just because his OBP is driven by more hits and he's RH.

RED VAN HOT
09-07-2008, 10:00 PM
Coors field and GABP rank 3rd and 4th respectively as far as giving up home runs, and 2nd and 13th in terms of hits. So if you're accounting for his home/road splits you need to take into account that he's going from a hitters park to a hitters park.

Also, his 3-year splits show 42 HRs/600 ABs at home (translates to 40 at GABP) and 21 on the road. Batting average is .370 (translates to .338 at GABP) vs. .282.

Over a full season, that averages out to .310 with 32 HRs. The OBP and SLG are almost exactly what we got from Dunn, although I'd prefer Holliday a little just because his OBP is driven by more hits and he's RH.

I tend to agree that the last three years would be a better predictor of future performance. The numbers I get for the splits over the last three seasons are HRs; 21 Home, 11.5 road; BA; .366 Home and .294 Road. Your argument that GABP is roughly equivalent to Coors in HRs is reasonable, particularly when we consider that Holliday would also trade a number of (cool air) night games on the west coast for middle west games. Thus, 31-33 HRs might be a better estimate as you suggest. I don't know how you arrived at the GABP batting average unless it is based on proportionally fewer hits in a ball park that surrenders fewer hits. I looked at his BA at GABP over the last three years and it was only .268. That is a very small sample of nine games however. A .310 BA overall is not unreasonable to expect. Holliday has been remarkably consistent.

I was more concerned with overpaying than in comparing Holliday's production to Dunn's. Toward that end, I was concerned about being to glib in projecting Coors numbers. I prefer Holliday because of speed and defense. He had me at 25 HR and .280. An outfield of Holliday, Stubbs or Dickerson, and Bruce would convert more fly balls into outs and would be fun to watch.

RedLakerFan24
09-20-2008, 01:48 PM
i think a deal of Drew Stubbs, Homer Bailey, and Daryl Thomson should get us Holliday

ChatterRed
09-20-2008, 07:06 PM
i think a deal of Drew Stubbs, Homer Bailey, and Daryl Thomson should get us Holliday

I would trade those three for him, but only if Holliday agrees to a multi-year deal with us beforehand.

That's two number one picks in that trade, isn't it?

redhawk61
09-20-2008, 07:18 PM
The Rockies have no need for Stubbs, Dexter Fowler is their guy in CF for the future.

The deal will include Frazier, Bailey, and 2 others...Just you wait and see;)

fewfirstchoice
09-20-2008, 10:11 PM
I believe the Reds and Rockies will some how make a bigger trade than just prospects for Holliday, if it happens at all. The Rockies are wanting a young 3B, !B, OF type(EE can play all 3) and a young talented pitcher. I could see the Reds send EE, Bailey, and Thompson to the Rocks as the core of a deal along with 2 or 3 more B and C level prospects. Heres what I believe the deal could look like.

To the Reds:
C- C. Iannetta 272 avg. 18 hrs 61 rbi 396 obp 524 slg.
3B- G. Atkins 292 avg. 19 hrs 91 rbi 333 obp 453 slg.
LF- M. Holliday 323 avg. 25 hrs 84 rbi 408 obp 542 slg.

to the Rockies:
3B- E. Encarnacion 25 homers 260s avg. and 60 some rbis
SP- Thompson (great young pitcher)
SP- Bailey (tons of potential but when will he put it together)
1B/3B/OF- T. Frazier (exellent young hitter grade A talent)
SS/2B- C. Valaika (youong SS they maybe looking for)
2B- Z. Cozart (young 2B with tons of upside B grade talent)
LP- T. Pelland ( young lefty, everyone likes a lefty)

Thats a lot of young talent to give up but your also getting alot back aswell. But I would only do this deal if the Reds get a window to work out a long term deal with Holliday. I could see the Reds giving Holliday a 6 year 110 to 115 million dollar deal or a 7 year 125 mil. deal. Hollidays only 28 so that would put him with the Reds throught his prime and the deal would end in his 34 or 35 year old season.

Iannetta would give them a young top notch catcher that can hit and play defense. While Atkins would replace EE at 3B. Iannetta would be a huge, very huge improvment over the Reds catchers of the last couple years. While Atkins is probably a slight improvment over EE on Defense throwing the ball, they both can go get the ball. EE has a little more power but Atkins produces more runs. All in all i think its a trade would be huge for the Reds.

Look at this possible lineup:
C- Iannetta
1B- Votto
2B- Phillips
3B- Atkins
SS- Gonzo
LF- Holliday
CF- Dickerson or a FA type like M. Bradley or M. Cameron
RF- Bruce

1) Dickerson CF ( go with him since I really like him and the Reds already have him)
2) Phillips 2B
3) Votto 1B
4) Holliday LF
5) Bruce RF
6) Atkins 3B
7) Iannetta C
8) Gonzo
Very solid lineup from top to bottom. A lineup I believe that could win a NL central title.

Put that with a pitching staff of:
1) Harang
2) Volquez
3) Arroyo
4) Cueto
5) a FA probably Lowe, Sheets, Penny, AJ Burnet maybe or not just a couple guys I like, and its not like AJ would be the #5 in the Reds rotation)

The bullpen will pretty much stay intact I believe:

CL- Cordero
8th inn- Burton
lefty- Bray
lefty- I believe they resign Affeltd
RP- Weathers will be resigned( but I hope not)
RP- Roenicke (hes ready)
RP- Id start Owings off in the pen to see what hes got

Now I dont know if the Rockies will trade both Atkins and Holliday but Id love to find out. I dont even know if the deal I offered up would be enough but I do think its pretty close to what it would take.

ChatterRed
09-21-2008, 02:50 AM
I think it's too much.

jmac
09-21-2008, 09:54 AM
I think it's too much.

Exaclty.
Plus if the reds get a big bat, I am happy with our front 4 and letting Ramirez/Owings battle it out for #5.
I mean Sheets-Penny-Burnett are too injury prone to put much money in.

fewfirstchoice
09-21-2008, 11:12 AM
I think its probably to much aswell. But these days if you get anything in a trade you have to pay to much. Id like to see the young guys battle it out for the last spot aswell but I just dont think it will happe that way. Bob C has promised winning to much without delivering yet. So I believe he will put he money back in the team this winter and a SP will be one of the additions I think.

FlightRick
09-21-2008, 01:46 PM
Wow: that crazy-ass 10-man trade would be a fun VideoGame Special... but no way it'd happen. Nor should it.

To get Iannetta at this point is the thing that will be expensive; after one pretty remarkable half-season (maybe two-thirds; Torrealba still got over 200 ABs at C, too), he's basically David Ross 2006. I think we know how that worked out. Snap up other teams' talent when it's undervalued, NOT when it's overvalued. And I'm not sure I want any part of Atkins if he's just there as the more-expensive, older, and no-more-offensively-potent 3B we take to try to replace Edwin. Keep Edwin, and let COL keep Atkins; that'd end up being a downgrade for us.

And yes, if we limit the deal to just Holliday, there's no reason Edwin would have to be part of the deal. This is a big thread, but hidden in there are a few posts that "get it" with regards to what it SHOULD take to make the deal. [i.e. the Philly deal]

Bottom line: Holliday is a one-year rental. Colorado will market him as a one year rental. The "buying" team will have to be idiots to view it as anything other than a one-year rental. If there were another way to view it, then COLORADO would be the idiots for trying to unload the guy instead of keeping him around and signing him long-term. Because, you see, if they haven't gotten anything done with a freaking TWO YEAR NEGOTIATION WINDOW, then you're a fool for thinking that inserting a 72-hour window into these trade talks is an even remotely useful direction to go. There's a reason Colorado sees Holliday (for all his production) as a trade-able liability and a salary-dump.

For this reason, the Reds' cost to acquire Holliday shouldn't be through the roof. It'd certainly be significant (Bailey, plus either one or two from AA or AAA), but it wouldn't break the bank. The question, really, is whether the Reds are a team that stands to benefit sufficiently from Holliday in 2009 to make even a negligible loss in Prospect Talent worth our while.

I've rolled that one around in my brain, and though I lean towards acquiring the guy and taking our chances, it's far from a concrete stance that I'd debate in public. There are so many other factors to consider, as well. Like: (1) if Holliday blows up at GABP and in our division (GABP isn't much worse than Coors, and we've got WAY more hitter friendly parks than the NL West), but it's not translating into wins for the Reds, can we flip him in July, possibly for prospects equal or great to what we gave up for him? Or (2) do we get cute, and no matter how Holliday performs, hold onto him all year in order to play the "get two free draft picks" game in order to (potentially) replace the 2 top prospects it'll cost to get him, and call it a wash? Maybe even (3) something clicks and when the time comes and all options are explored, Holliday IS willing to stay with the Reds and we are willing to pay him market value; it'd be expensive, but Holliday/Bruce on the corners means we can cut costs elsewhere, even if it means a pair of nancies like Dickerson and Stubbs in CF.

The issue of Holliday is complicated and unclear, but if we're going to be tackling it, I think we might as well do it realistically: and that means understanding that nobody would frame a Holliday trade as anything but a rental, and the return the Rockies get will be commensurate with that. Or else THEY can settle for the draft picks at the end of next year.


Rick

fewfirstchoice
09-21-2008, 06:29 PM
Dude what do you think it was? It was a wild idea of a trade that could help the Reds in 09. To say it wont happen is probably 99% accurate but to say it shouldnt is a opinion. And you know what people say about opinions dont you.

RedLakerFan24
09-22-2008, 04:24 PM
My Goal would be to trade for Matt Holliday, and sign Edgar Renteria and Oliver Perez

Line Up
Chris Dikerson
Edgar Renteria
Joey Votto
Matt Holliday
Brandon Phillips
Jay Bruce
Edwin Encarnacion
Ryan Hanigan

Pitching Rotation
Aaron Harang
Edison Volquez
Oliver Perez
Bronson Arroyo
Johny Cueto

Too Bad it aint going to happen

nemesis
09-23-2008, 02:27 PM
Why sign Perez? We have to many in house options who are younger cheaper and wont walk 100+ people.

As I have said before, I am all for a blockbuster trade with Texas...

They get:

Bailey - Needs a fresh start
Roenicke - they need arms
Cordero - really need a closer
Encarnacion - Perfect DH
Wood/Smith - Future prospects

We get:

Andrus - SS
Cruz - LF
Laird - C
Servina - Prospect

We stay with the build young and cheap and fill all our holes with one simple swap.

ol'Sparky
09-23-2008, 09:43 PM
We don't need this chump !!

Stephenk29
09-23-2008, 10:11 PM
We don't need this chump !!

Chump?

You mean perinneal All-Star caliber stud?

REDblooded
09-24-2008, 09:16 AM
Why sign Perez? We have to many in house options who are younger cheaper and wont walk 100+ people.

As I have said before, I am all for a blockbuster trade with Texas...

They get:

Bailey - Needs a fresh start
Roenicke - they need arms
Cordero - really need a closer
Encarnacion - Perfect DH
Wood/Smith - Future prospects

We get:

Andrus - SS
Cruz - LF
Laird - C
Servina - Prospect

We stay with the build young and cheap and fill all our holes with one simple swap.

Please step down as GM........ You're giving up as much youth as you're getting in return, and getting rid of Edwin and Cordero. awful

nemesis
09-24-2008, 11:01 AM
Please step down as GM........ You're giving up as much youth as you're getting in return, and getting rid of Edwin and Cordero. awful

Huh? I am trading a 25 year old hitter w/o a postion. A 22 year old pitcher without velocity. A 26 year old pitcher without control. Burton can be every bit as good as Cordero at a fraction of the payroll and a either or of two borderline pitchers for:

A 28 year old starting catcher with some pop, A 19 year old shortstop who hit .295 Scored 82 Runs had 65 RBIS in the leadoff spot, Stole 54 Bases had an ob% of .350 and OPS'd at .717 in Double A, oh and he's right handed.

Also we get a 28 year old right handed Center/ Left fielder who, Hit .341 Scored 94 runs in a 104 games Crushed 37 HR Drove in a 100 Stole 24 bases had a ob% of .430 and OPS'd 1.122. Then follows that up with a .316 .417 .979 line in the majors albeit a small sample size. He is way cheaper than Holiday or Ordonez. He will feed off the youth and energy vs. feel superior to it or feel like like they have nothing left to prove but show up at the ball park. We just got rid of those guys, why bring back more? Finally, Poveda a 20 year old High A ball pitcher who has done nothing but been a quality starter with a 85/250 - BB to K ratio in his first 244.1 Innings in pro ball while holding batters to a .227 avg in the Cal League.

If you ask me, we might not be giving up enough.

I say stay with youth. It worked for the Indians. it worked for Oakland, it still working in Minnesota and it definatly is working in Tampa.

ChatterRed
09-24-2008, 12:17 PM
Huh? I am trading a 25 year old hitter w/o a postion. A 22 year old pitcher without velocity. A 26 year old pitcher without control. Burton can be every bit as good as Cordero at a fraction of the payroll and a either or of two borderline pitchers for:

A 28 year old starting catcher with some pop, A 19 year old shortstop who hit .295 Scored 82 Runs had 65 RBIS in the leadoff spot, Stole 54 Bases had an ob% of .350 and OPS'd at .717 in Double A, oh and he's right handed.

Also we get a 28 year old right handed Center/ Left fielder who, Hit .341 Scored 94 runs in a 104 games Crushed 37 HR Drove in a 100 Stole 24 bases had a ob% of .430 and OPS'd 1.122. Then follows that up with a .316 .417 .979 line in the majors albeit a small sample size. He is way cheaper than Holiday or Ordonez. He will feed off the youth and energy vs. feel superior to it or feel like like they have nothing left to prove but show up at the ball park. We just got rid of those guys, why bring back more? Finally, Poveda a 20 year old High A ball pitcher who has done nothing but been a quality starter with a 85/250 - BB to K ratio in his first 244.1 Innings in pro ball while holding batters to a .227 avg in the Cal League.

If you ask me, we might not be giving up enough.

I say stay with youth. It worked for the Indians. it worked for Oakland, it still working in Minnesota and it definatly is working in Tampa.

The problem with your trade proposal is it assumes they want those players.

Also, if they're giving up Holliday because they don't want to pay him. Why would they want to take on Cordero's salary?

RedLakerFan24
09-24-2008, 03:08 PM
Edwin, Ownings, Thomson for Matt Holliday, and Alonso could play 3B

nemesis
09-24-2008, 03:08 PM
The trade is to Texas. F Holliday. Texas wants, needs and desires pitchers. Heck if one of you was left handed and could get the ball across the plate with some movement they might give you a look... Texas and Cincy have had solid trade history together. Why wouldn't they want to take a flyer on a 22 yr old Texas school boy starting pitcher? Maybe lighting could strike twice we get Cruz and he develops into gold and Bailey gets to go home and maybe like Volquez and just figures it out... I'd be ok with a Bailey/Roeincke for Cruz package. We got Volquez/Hererra for Hamilton. Kinda a even swap.

RedLakerFan24
09-24-2008, 04:18 PM
there was an article on real gm that the reds could trade for one of the rangers catchers salty most likely for homer and maybe another prospect

Red in Atl
09-24-2008, 04:33 PM
Is there some proof out there that Holiday can hit as well outside of Homerville. I haven't seen it. And if he can, I may feel different. But for now, I'm keeping my kids at home.

In another thread I had a wish list and dream roster by adding Ichiro and CC. Now I think those two really put us over the top. But I am also really intrigued by this young team playing right now. They have all played together coming up and could continue as the new Reds.

Maybe we should just sit back, wait till spring training and see what these kids can do. I certainly hope we don't make any silly trades and empty our cupboards, but then again, I don't think Walt would do that.

I certainly like where we sit today better than anytime since the end of the '99 season/the day they aquired Griffey.

RedLakerFan24
09-24-2008, 04:35 PM
there was an article on mlbtr that the reds could trade for one of the rangers catchers salty most likely for homer and maybe another prospect

nemesis
09-24-2008, 06:18 PM
Is there some proof out there that Holiday can hit as well outside of Homerville. I haven't seen it. And if he can, I may feel different. But for now, I'm keeping my kids at home.

In another thread I had a wish list and dream roster by adding Ichiro and CC. Now I think those two really put us over the top. But I am also really intrigued by this young team playing right now. They have all played together coming up and could continue as the new Reds.

Maybe we should just sit back, wait till spring training and see what these kids can do. I certainly hope we don't make any silly trades and empty our cupboards, but then again, I don't think Walt would do that.

I certainly like where we sit today better than anytime since the end of the '99 season/the day they aquired Griffey.

The problem with CC is the 6yrs $120 million the Yankees will offer him and with Ichiro, Seattle would want the moon. Now for Felix on the other hand, Valakia, Homer, Dorn, Roenicke, Thompson, Phillips... Bye See Ya!!!!

ChatterRed
09-24-2008, 08:50 PM
The trade is to Texas. F Holliday. Texas wants, needs and desires pitchers. Heck if one of you was left handed and could get the ball across the plate with some movement they might give you a look... Texas and Cincy have had solid trade history together. Why wouldn't they want to take a flyer on a 22 yr old Texas school boy starting pitcher? Maybe lighting could strike twice we get Cruz and he develops into gold and Bailey gets to go home and maybe like Volquez and just figures it out... I'd be ok with a Bailey/Roeincke for Cruz package. We got Volquez/Hererra for Hamilton. Kinda a even swap.

Oops. So many trade proposals going on, I got confused. Sorry.

Ghosts of 1990
09-25-2008, 10:16 AM
If you guys wanna know what Jay Bruce will develop into, it is a left handed Matt Holliday.

BLEEDS
09-25-2008, 10:31 AM
If you guys wanna know what Jay Bruce will develop into, it is a left handed Matt Holliday.

Man, does EVERYTHING have to be turned into a Jay Bruce discussion?

We're talking about LF - is it too much to ask to have TWO Power Corner OF-ers!?!?

PEACE

-BLEEDS

tommycash
09-25-2008, 11:33 AM
Are the Rangers the only team out there to trade with. It seems like every time someone brings up a trade proposal, someone mentions their extensive knowledge of the Texas Farm System and proposes a trade. I don't think we will ever get one of the Texas "World Greatest Catchers". I don't mind hearing about hypothetical trade proposals but I just think there are more prospects outside of the Rangers' system. Sorry about the rant, and the Texas proposals don't always look bad to me, but I am getting tired of the Laird, Salty trade proposals. If those guys were that good, then why hasn't one of them been traded yet (there is a huge catcher shortage in the majors).

nemesis
09-25-2008, 11:45 AM
Are the Rangers the only team out there to trade with. It seems like every time someone brings up a trade proposal, someone mentions their extensive knowledge of the Texas Farm System and proposes a trade. I don't think we will ever get one of the Texas "World Greatest Catchers". I don't mind hearing about hypothetical trade proposals but I just think there are more prospects outside of the Rangers' system. Sorry about the rant, and the Texas proposals don't always look bad to me, but I am getting tired of the Laird, Salty trade proposals. If those guys were that good, then why hasn't one of them been traded yet (there is a huge catcher shortage in the majors).

Your right. It does seem we goto the Texas well a little to often. i think in part there is 3 reasons for that. One is the trades we've made with them woked out well for us Volquez and EE. Two is Hamilton worked out great for them and that breeds trust and confidence and 3 is they have a surplus of what we need Catchers and Outfileder and we have what they need Pitching. Takes two to dance and right now Texas is a 36D Blonde sitting on the wall all bored and lonely looking...

ChatterRed
09-25-2008, 02:18 PM
Are the Rangers the only team out there to trade with. It seems like every time someone brings up a trade proposal, someone mentions their extensive knowledge of the Texas Farm System and proposes a trade. I don't think we will ever get one of the Texas "World Greatest Catchers". I don't mind hearing about hypothetical trade proposals but I just think there are more prospects outside of the Rangers' system. Sorry about the rant, and the Texas proposals don't always look bad to me, but I am getting tired of the Laird, Salty trade proposals. If those guys were that good, then why hasn't one of them been traded yet (there is a huge catcher shortage in the majors).


We could trade with Boston. Or maybe San Fran. Or maybe San Diego. Or maybe Oakland. Or maybe the Twins. Or maybe........

tommycash
09-25-2008, 03:11 PM
Huh? I am trading a 25 year old hitter w/o a postion. A 22 year old pitcher without velocity. A 26 year old pitcher without control. Burton can be every bit as good as Cordero at a fraction of the payroll and a either or of two borderline pitchers for:

A 28 year old starting catcher with some pop, A 19 year old shortstop who hit .295 Scored 82 Runs had 65 RBIS in the leadoff spot, Stole 54 Bases had an ob% of .350 and OPS'd at .717 in Double A, oh and he's right handed.

Also we get a 28 year old right handed Center/ Left fielder who, Hit .341 Scored 94 runs in a 104 games Crushed 37 HR Drove in a 100 Stole 24 bases had a ob% of .430 and OPS'd 1.122. Then follows that up with a .316 .417 .979 line in the majors albeit a small sample size. He is way cheaper than Holiday or Ordonez. He will feed off the youth and energy vs. feel superior to it or feel like like they have nothing left to prove but show up at the ball park. We just got rid of those guys, why bring back more? Finally, Poveda a 20 year old High A ball pitcher who has done nothing but been a quality starter with a 85/250 - BB to K ratio in his first 244.1 Innings in pro ball while holding batters to a .227 avg in the Cal League.

If you ask me, we might not be giving up enough.

I say stay with youth. It worked for the Indians. it worked for Oakland, it still working in Minnesota and it definatly is working in Tampa.

If you told me Cruz was 24 or 23, I would think he would be worth something in a trade, but he is 28. He hasn't put up that many great numbers in the majors. He's had a pretty good 100 at-bats, but he is not a prospect. I don't know if he is worth Bailey straight-up. I wouldn't do EE straight up for him either. I would want something else. He is 28 and he should be doing well in the minors. With over 300 at-bats last season, he had a .287 OBP and his walk to strikeout ratio was 1 to 4. He might play for less that Ordonez or Holliday, but I don't think he can produce in the majors like those guys.

Laird, who everybody seems to love, had a terrible year last year, and is doing better this year, but not enough for me to throw prospects at. I would think we could throw lower level prospects and get this guy.

The Andrus kid does seem to have potential and put up very good numbers in AAA, but we do have some young guys in our system that aren't bad that can play SS too. We also have Gonzales coming back. Don't give up too much for someone who might not be needed next year. I do like that he is pretty good and 20 though.

I don't know what to say about your throw in prospect. You said Servina or Poveda. Poveda stats in Bakersfield are mediocre, but not terrible. I don't know who Servina is.

As for the Reds, maybe sending Bailey somewhere else could benefit him. Maybe we should trade him, I don't know. But I wouldn't package him in this deal.

Roenicke throws 96mph and is one of our top pitching prospects. With Weathers possibly leaving , Roenicke is slated to take his spot. If Weathers doesn't go, Roenicke could take Lincoln's spot. Either way, Roenicke and Burton could compete for the closer's job when Cordero's contract comes up. I would not put Roenicke in such a risky trade either.

Cordero in this trade is not an option either. How does trading the best closer we have had in a while, and someone who is signed for a couple more years make this team better. Our bullpen has been terrible and just when it looks like we are getting a strong starting staff and pen, people want to trade guys from it. Keep Cordero as our closer, make Burton the set-up, and have Roenicke be a 7th inning guy (if Weathers goes). Leave our bullpen alone. The only way we should trade Cordero is if Walt goes out and gets a better closer somewhere else.

EdE is someone we should keep right now. He is cheap, still in the years before his prime and at times shows flashes of genius. I think if we trade him now, he goes to Texas and could become a superstar. Then we are left with a hole at 3B and all we get back in the deal are a couple of guys who help us out in the minors, and Cruz and Laird. Haningan could do just as good as Laird, and Cruz is unproven as a major leaguer. I don't care what Cruz did in the minors. This is not good deal for the Reds. Sorry.

As for serving youth. Your trade would make our MLB roster a little older.