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View Full Version : New AA and High A teams could be announced Thursday



JaxRed
09-17-2008, 12:05 PM
Today and yesterday were first 2 days teams could negotiate with new cities. Officially they can't be announced until tomorrow.

But AAA news is being leaked left and right. But nothing has been leaked for AA, where Reds will either be with Carolina, Huntsville, Jacksonville, Connecticut or back with Chattanooga if Lookouts owner doesn't find something better.

On the High A side, the key thing is whether Boston takes over in Salem, Va (they own the team). I think if Boston takes over in Salem, Reds will stay in Sarasota for 2 years.

But if Reds Sox decide they want to be in Sarasota, Reds are likely to end up in Salem.

Edd Roush
09-17-2008, 12:21 PM
Jax, I think I read one of your posts a while back which said that Sarasota has the worst attendance in the league. Would a move to Salem be a good thing for the Reds?

Thanks

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 12:51 PM
Money-wise I don't think it makes a huge diference. Especially if Salem is owned by Sox and managed by Reds.

thorn
09-17-2008, 02:10 PM
The flip side is if Sarasota has such bad attendance, why would the Red Sox want to go there? Is Salem worse or about the same?

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 03:32 PM
Boston may want Sarasota because they are heavily in negotiation to replace the Reds for Spring Training, and their minor league operations would be headquartered in Sarasota. They would want the High A franchise there just like Reds did.

Minor league attendance is not a big factor.

Mario-Rijo
09-17-2008, 04:41 PM
Today and yesterday were first 2 days teams could negotiate with new cities. Officially they can't be announced until tomorrow.

But AAA news is being leaked left and right. But nothing has been leaked for AA, where Reds will either be with Carolina, Huntsville, Jacksonville, Connecticut or back with Chattanooga if Lookouts owner doesn't find something better.

On the High A side, the key thing is whether Boston takes over in Salem, Va (they own the team). I think if Boston takes over in Salem, Reds will stay in Sarasota for 2 years.

But if Reds Sox decide they want to be in Sarasota, Reds are likely to end up in Salem.

Jax I'm assuming you have really played out all these scenarios in your head down to the fine print. So I ask you what's the best case scenario for the Reds organization? By that I mean what is the most ideally suited scenario for us and for what reasons, mainly the AA situation.

I think those of us who have sorta followed along with your and others updates can all just about assume what the worst case is.

Heath
09-17-2008, 04:46 PM
Hey JaxRed - maybe a little 'leakage' of any team affiliation would be fun discussion.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 04:51 PM
Well, I assume that Jax is hooking up with Marlins (much to my chagrin) and that Chattanooga will hook up with someone else. That leaves Connecticut, Huntsville and Carolina.

Connecticut is probably going to move in a year (probably to Richmond). Huntsville is in middle of nowhere and has worst stadium in the league. So, best case scenario in my mind is Carolina Mudcats.

paulrichjr
09-17-2008, 05:41 PM
West Tennessee not in the running for the Reds?? I live an hour from the stadium and I thought I heard that was a possibility.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 05:57 PM
West Tenn resigned with Mariners

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 09:49 PM
Jacksonville (as rumored) just signed with Marlins, and Brewers (unexpectedly) just resigned with Huntsville, so Reds options are down to Carolina, Connecticut and Chattanooga (the three C's)

Slyder
09-17-2008, 09:59 PM
Really, I wonder if theres been any word on the Brewers reupping with Charleston (Low A). I thought theyd dump Huntsville first.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 10:05 PM
Charleston, WV signed with Pirates.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 10:07 PM
On the High A side of things, the Sarasota Reds options are down to:

Salem, Sarasota, Winston-Salem, San Jose, Lynchburg, Inland Empire, High Desert,

Slyder
09-17-2008, 10:12 PM
Charleston, WV signed with Pirates.

Crap :(. Oh well. I was holding out hope maybe the Rangers would swoop in and go bandit in the night.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2008, 10:13 PM
Charleston, WV signed with Pirates.

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I'm surprised the Brewers dropped Charleston considering they just built a beautiful brand new ballpark.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 10:22 PM
Brewers picked up Wisconsin Timber Rattlers. That makes sense....

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 10:26 PM
OK our old buddy Tony Jackson who now reports on Dodgers says LA is signing with an Southern League team tomorrow rumored to be the Lookouts. If he is right, Reds are down to Carolina and Connecticut. (Go Mudcats).

All this assume Yankees resign with Trenton which every says is a done deal but it's never been finalized.

Also, Tony says that Dodgers are resigning with Inland Empire at High A.

OnBaseMachine
09-17-2008, 10:26 PM
Brewers picked up Wisconsin Timbler Rattlers. That makes sense....

Yep. Plus the Pirates are a nice fit since Charleston is only around four hours from Pittsburgh.I believe the Pirates were once affiliated with the Charleston Wheelers back in the day.

HokieRed
09-17-2008, 11:04 PM
Reds have been in the Carolina League twice in recent memory, for a while with Winston-Salem and then at Potomac just before the Nationals picked up that franchise. That fact, plus the fact the Carolina's generally regarded the highest A league, make me think the Reds will end up in Winston, Salem, or Lynchburg. One of those teams, plus Carolina in the Southern, would make a lot of sense.

JaxRed
09-17-2008, 11:28 PM
Here's a scenario for Lynchburg: Lynchburg tv website says Pirates wanted to be in FSL league with franchise in Bradenton. They could get that franchise from the Reds. Don't know if that would make it more likely that Reds would get Lynchburg...

Caseyfan21
09-18-2008, 01:13 AM
I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I'm surprised the Brewers dropped Charleston considering they just built a beautiful brand new ballpark.

Went to quite a few games there over the summer when I lived in Huntington. Great place to watch a game...it was lots of fun. Nothing beat the $1 nights (hot dogs, tickets, and beer). :beerme:

elfmanvt07
09-18-2008, 05:47 AM
Went to quite a few games there over the summer when I lived in Huntington. Great place to watch a game...it was lots of fun. Nothing beat the $1 nights (hot dogs, tickets, and beer). :beerme:

And living up the road from Salem, I can vouch that it's a fun little park. Several different beers on tap for dollar beer night. Good sausages, IMO.

JaxRed
09-18-2008, 07:47 AM
Here's the article in Chattanooga paper confirming Lookouts move to Dodgers. (they are going to wear dodger style uniforms?)

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2008/sep/17/chattanooga-lookouts-team-dodgers/?sports

Buster
09-18-2008, 09:06 AM
The Mudcats have a very nice park about 30 miles from Raleigh and seemed to draw well when I was there. Naturally, I would like to see the Reds move here.

Mario-Rijo
09-18-2008, 09:13 AM
Hey anyone near Chattanooga can get me one of those hats or does someone know where I can get 1 before they are all gone from existence? Love that Lookouts Logo.

OnBaseMachine
09-18-2008, 10:30 AM
It's kinda sad to see the Reds and Chattanooga no longer affiliated together. The Reds had been with them since the year I was born (1987).

carmack42
09-18-2008, 11:29 AM
Well, I guess my dreams of a Huntsville Reds team will be on hold until 2010. I hope they go with Carolina. They wouldn't have to do too much to the logo. Just have the mudcat swimming through the old wishbone (fishbone?).

Here's a link:
http://www.gomudcats.com/

M2
09-18-2008, 11:31 AM
It's a crying shame that the Reds have lost Chattanooga. That's a class operation.

It would also be a shame to see the Lookouts change their logo. It's one of the most distinctive in all of baseball and one of the strengths of that club is its identity in its home market. I know a guy in Chattanooga who is a rabid Lookouts fan. He could care less about the Reds. I'll guarantee you he won't care about the Dodgers.

IslandRed
09-18-2008, 12:33 PM
They can always change to Dodger-blue style uniforms but keep the hats (albeit they'll be blue instead of red). Since there was nothing in the article about changing the name from "Lookouts" I'm guessing that's what will happen.

Redman15
09-18-2008, 12:39 PM
I have a blue Lookout hat that they wore on the 4th of July along with a blue jersey I won in a auction. They look pretty cool.

JaxRed
09-18-2008, 12:46 PM
I have a blue Lookout hat that they wore on the 4th of July along with a blue jersey I won in a auction. They look pretty cool.

Oh sure..... take their side......

Redman15
09-18-2008, 01:41 PM
Oh sure..... take their side......

As of today it's the only side. I guess Frank Burke is going to have to buy
into the "Think Blue" theme at AT&T. Here come the Manny wigs. Burke didn't
want the Reds back in Chatt and made it pretty clear at the end of the season.
Carolina here we come??

flyer85
09-18-2008, 01:44 PM
Seems like the Reds are the last choice of just about everyone.

Highlifeman21
09-18-2008, 02:23 PM
So they'll be replacing the Rock Cats or the Defenders?

Or adding a 3rd team to CT?

JaxRed
09-18-2008, 02:40 PM
The Reds AA team will either be the Carolina Mudcats or Connecticut Defenders

Kc61
09-18-2008, 03:25 PM
The Reds AA team will either be the Carolina Mudcats or Connecticut Defenders

Given the way the Reds have played defense, maybe a team called the "Defenders" is a decent choice.

lollipopcurve
09-18-2008, 03:32 PM
If they come to CT, I'll be able to see them, 20+ years after watching the Vermont Reds in the Eastern League (Sabo, Larkin, Jeff Montgomery, Treadway, etc....). Probably going to be a pretty talented squad, too. Bring 'em on!

JaxRed
09-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Pittsburgh and Lynchburg just renewed.....

LouisvilleCARDS
09-18-2008, 05:46 PM
Maybe someone can explain this to me: but why isn't there so-called "promotions" in the minor leagues? Not a marketing promotion, but literally like a job promotion to a higher level.

It's obvious to me the Dayton Dragons SHOULD be the Reds new Double A affiliate, and let one of these other vagabond franchises be a single A teams. It makes more sense. Not that it makes a ton of difference, but I think Dayton should be rewarded with a new class of players and league for being so ridiculously successful. They have the park to do it, and this is from Wikipedia:

"The Dragons average 8,375 fans per game, or 116% of capacity. The Dragons have been the top Class A team in attendance every year of their existence, and have set and re-broken the record for Class A attendance three times.[2] On April 17, 2007, the Dragons enjoyed their 500th consecutive sellout, believed to be the longest current streak in professional sports"

I don't get it. Maybe its not a big deal to them, but I think it would be a good reward for being such a successful franchise. They get to see a little bit bigger prospects in double A hang around than Triple A.

highheat11
09-18-2008, 06:31 PM
Maybe someone can explain this to me: but why isn't there so-called "promotions" in the minor leagues? Not a marketing promotion, but literally like a job promotion to a higher level.

It's obvious to me the Dayton Dragons SHOULD be the Reds new Double A affiliate, and let one of these other vagabond franchises be a single A teams. It makes more sense. Not that it makes a ton of difference, but I think Dayton should be rewarded with a new class of players and league for being so ridiculously successful. They have the park to do it, and this is from Wikipedia:

"The Dragons average 8,375 fans per game, or 116% of capacity. The Dragons have been the top Class A team in attendance every year of their existence, and have set and re-broken the record for Class A attendance three times.[2] On April 17, 2007, the Dragons enjoyed their 500th consecutive sellout, believed to be the longest current streak in professional sports"

I don't get it. Maybe its not a big deal to them, but I think it would be a good reward for being such a successful franchise. They get to see a little bit bigger prospects in double A hang around than Triple A.

The main issue with doing this is the geography. They're not in a bad place for an AAA affiliation, but the Louisville organization doesn't really seem to be something that the Reds will want to part ways with anytime soon. If they were to go AA, then there really isn't a viable league they could play in.

Highlifeman21
09-18-2008, 10:05 PM
The Reds AA team will either be the Carolina Mudcats or Connecticut Defenders

If it ends up being the Defenders, then the plus side is the casinos are right around the corner.....

Caveat Emperor
09-19-2008, 01:00 AM
Seems like the Reds are the last choice of just about everyone.

I'm still not even sure why any minor league team would care too much what it's affiliation status is. As long as the parent club isn't shorting talent to the team consistently and robbing them of the ability to put a money-making product on the field, I don't see what the difference is between being wedded to the Reds v. the Dodgers.

For all their management turmoil, it's not like the Reds have been putting inferior products on the field in their farm systems. They fielded two playoff teams this year and it seems like they always have a few big stars at each of the teams in their system.

dougdirt
09-19-2008, 01:15 AM
Three playoffs teams this year CE. Billings, Dayton and Louisville all went to the playoffs.

Triples
09-19-2008, 09:34 AM
As of today it's the only side. I guess Frank Burke is going to have to buy
into the "Think Blue" theme at AT&T. Here come the Manny wigs. Burke didn't
want the Reds back in Chatt and made it pretty clear at the end of the season.
Carolina here we come??


Why do they have to switch colors or logos. Most minor league teams colors and logos don't match the major league clubs colors and logos. Based on how well marketed the Lookouts have been; I doubt they will change anything. What I will miss most is their announcer. He was quite good.

JaxRed
09-19-2008, 12:15 PM
The only reason we think it's changing is because it said they would in the article

JaxRed
09-19-2008, 12:15 PM
Decision from Mudcats to come next week

"The Mudcats expect to announce a new affiliate next week, said Joe Kremer, the Mudcats general manager.

Kremer confirmed that the Mudcats had met with representatives from the San Francisco Giants on Wednesday and would meet later today with the Cincinnati Reds."

M2
09-19-2008, 12:25 PM
They can always change to Dodger-blue style uniforms but keep the hats (albeit they'll be blue instead of red). Since there was nothing in the article about changing the name from "Lookouts" I'm guessing that's what will happen.

I'd be down with that. In fact, I'd probably buy a blue eyeballs cap.


If they come to CT, I'll be able to see them, 20+ years after watching the Vermont Reds in the Eastern League (Sabo, Larkin, Jeff Montgomery, Treadway, etc....). Probably going to be a pretty talented squad, too. Bring 'em on!

I haven't been down to Norwich since it was a Yankees affiliate. It would also be nice to see the Reds AA team on the road in Portsmouth, Portland or New Britain.


Maybe someone can explain this to me: but why isn't there so-called "promotions" in the minor leagues? Not a marketing promotion, but literally like a job promotion to a higher level.

It's obvious to me the Dayton Dragons SHOULD be the Reds new Double A affiliate, and let one of these other vagabond franchises be a single A teams. It makes more sense. Not that it makes a ton of difference, but I think Dayton should be rewarded with a new class of players and league for being so ridiculously successful. They have the park to do it, and this is from Wikipedia:

"The Dragons average 8,375 fans per game, or 116% of capacity. The Dragons have been the top Class A team in attendance every year of their existence, and have set and re-broken the record for Class A attendance three times.[2] On April 17, 2007, the Dragons enjoyed their 500th consecutive sellout, believed to be the longest current streak in professional sports"

I don't get it. Maybe its not a big deal to them, but I think it would be a good reward for being such a successful franchise. They get to see a little bit bigger prospects in double A hang around than Triple A.

Excellent point.

While the Southern League might be a bit of geographical stretch (and that means travel costs), it would make a lot of sense for the Reds to have their two strongest affiliates at the highest rungs of the minors and it would be great for Dayton to showcase a better caliber of player.

Yet the final destination for Dayton my be High A. There's a serious question about whether the Florida State and California leagues should even exist (particularly the FSL). Attendance is low, the parks are in disrepair. Independent teams in the Frontier, Atlantic and Can-Am leagues outdraw them by significant amounts. It wouldn't surprise me to see one or both of those circuits die off.


Seems like the Reds are the last choice of just about everyone.

It is coming across that way.

M2
09-19-2008, 12:30 PM
Decision from Mudcats to come next week

"The Mudcats expect to announce a new affiliate next week, said Joe Kremer, the Mudcats general manager.

Kremer confirmed that the Mudcats had met with representatives from the San Francisco Giants on Wednesday and would meet later today with the Cincinnati Reds."

San Francisco has been a notoriously bad major league parent in the Eastern League. They've been the Old Maid card in that circuit. If I were Carolina, I'd pick the Reds, who've at least shown some stability and commitment during their extended stay in Chattanooga.

OnBaseMachine
09-19-2008, 12:51 PM
Reds notebook
Reds on the lookout for new Double-A team

By John Fay • jfay@enquirer.com • September 19, 2008

The Reds and the Chattanooga Lookouts have ended their association after 21 years.

"We've been talking since the winter meetings," said Reds director of player development Terry Reynolds. "We couldn't get it done. We shook hands and smiled and parted ways."

The Southern League Lookouts announced a two-year agreement with the Los Angeles Dodgers.

The move leaves the Reds in search of a Double-A affiliate.

There are openings in the Southern League (Carolina) and the Eastern League (Norwich, Conn.). The Reds are talking to both.

Will it be one of the two?

"It's got to be," Reynolds said.

The Carolina Mudcats play in Zebulon, N.C., outside Raleigh. The Florida Marlins currently have an affiliate there. The Marlins are moving their Double-A club to Jacksonville.

The Connecticut Defenders played in Norwich. The Defenders currently are affiliated with the San Francisco Giants.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080919/SPT04/809190429/1071

JaxRed
09-19-2008, 02:41 PM
Salem just signed with Boston, so the possibility of a Sarasota/Salem swap is gone.

LouisvilleCARDS
09-19-2008, 03:18 PM
Reds notebook
Reds on the lookout for new Double-A team

By John Fay • jfay@enquirer.com • September 19, 2008

The Reds and the Chattanooga Lookouts have ended their association after 21 years.

"We've been talking since the winter meetings," said Reds director of player development Terry Reynolds. "We couldn't get it done. We shook hands and smiled and parted ways."

The Southern League Lookouts announced a two-year agreement with the Los Angeles Dodgers.

The move leaves the Reds in search of a Double-A affiliate.

There are openings in the Southern League (Carolina) and the Eastern League (Norwich, Conn.). The Reds are talking to both.

Will it be one of the two?

"It's got to be," Reynolds said.

The Carolina Mudcats play in Zebulon, N.C., outside Raleigh. The Florida Marlins currently have an affiliate there. The Marlins are moving their Double-A club to Jacksonville.

The Connecticut Defenders played in Norwich. The Defenders currently are affiliated with the San Francisco Giants.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080919/SPT04/809190429/1071

I read a little about both teams, Connecticut sounds like the stronger franchise of the two, although the Marlins routinely called guys straight out of Double A. I'm guessing thats going to continue, as their Triple A team is insanely in NEW MEXICO. There's a lame duck Triple A team if I ever heard one.

As for Dayton, I don't know much about the Double A league they would be in, but I guess the travel costs would be a bit higher being in a "southern" league, so I don't know how that compared with the league they're in now currently. Still, it would be nice to make that jump. The question is though, its like fitting a peice of the puzzle, I don't think one of those double A teams would like to be dropped to single A. It would be great for player movement and scouting though too, so you could factor that in. Louisville and Dayton are both extremely strong, probably the strongest in their respective classes in support, and having them AA and AAA right near Cincy would be great to have right around in the geographical area.

IslandRed
09-19-2008, 03:27 PM
Maybe someone can explain this to me: but why isn't there so-called "promotions" in the minor leagues? Not a marketing promotion, but literally like a job promotion to a higher level.

It's obvious to me the Dayton Dragons SHOULD be the Reds new Double A affiliate, and let one of these other vagabond franchises be a single A teams. It makes more sense.

Well, you have to ask: Makes more sense to who? Not the existing Double-A leagues. Dayton's fan support is great, but if I understand the minor-league structure correctly, there's no revenue sharing of any kind. Having Dayton in the Southern League or Eastern League doesn't put an extra dime in anyone's pocket, but it takes quite a few out, what with increased travel costs and time. Geography is a huge factor in leagues where travel is done by bus and not airplane.

Now, M2's post might be right on the money with respect to the FSL. Most FSL franchises are woeful and the league probably wouldn't exist anymore if not for the convenience of matching teams with spring-training facilities, as the Reds have recently. Furthermore, the "high A" and "low A" split is a custom that evolved over time. I doubt there's anything stopping MLB from saying "you know what? Why don't we, in (some future year that gives time for teams to line up affiliations), make the Midwest League High-A and drop the FSL to Low-A?"

JaxRed
09-19-2008, 03:49 PM
There's some talk about big changes coming to the minors in next couple years. So you could see radical restructuring of leagues..... but you won't see the "promotion/demotion" thing. Ever.

LouisvilleCARDS
09-19-2008, 04:12 PM
Well, you have to ask: Makes more sense to who? Not the existing Double-A leagues. Dayton's fan support is great, but if I understand the minor-league structure correctly, there's no revenue sharing of any kind. Having Dayton in the Southern League or Eastern League doesn't put an extra dime in anyone's pocket, but it takes quite a few out, what with increased travel costs and time. Geography is a huge factor in leagues where travel is done by bus and not airplane.

Now, M2's post might be right on the money with respect to the FSL. Most FSL franchises are woeful and the league probably wouldn't exist anymore if not for the convenience of matching teams with spring-training facilities, as the Reds have recently. Furthermore, the "high A" and "low A" split is a custom that evolved over time. I doubt there's anything stopping MLB from saying "you know what? Why don't we, in (some future year that gives time for teams to line up affiliations), make the Midwest League High-A and drop the FSL to Low-A?"


I guess it doesn't matter much, its all about money, and there's no benefit from a money level to being in single A or triple A. Technically, the Reds could treat Dayton as their Double A team, like the Florida Marlins basically do with their double A vs. single A team. Of course, competition may be a bit weaker, but really, when you think about it - there's no reason why a major league team couldn't put their best prospects in single A and call them up directly from there, besides the obvious jump in competition on each level.

It would be nice to have some geographical connection though, so many organizations have completely off the wall connections to areas. San Francisco Giants affiliate in CONNECTICUT? That's just ... odd.

I can attest to the fact that when we were the short lived affiliate for the Brewers here in between St Louis and Cincinnati, hardly a single fan in this city gave a craput the Milwaukee Brewers. It was a HORRIBLE match for here. Hopefully either Connecticut or Carolina will be a good match for the organization and they'll be supported.

Highlifeman21
09-19-2008, 04:29 PM
I thought the Defenders were the AA team of the Indians?

IslandRed
09-19-2008, 06:18 PM
I guess it doesn't matter much, its all about money, and there's no benefit from a money level to being in single A or triple A. Technically, the Reds could treat Dayton as their Double A team, like the Florida Marlins basically do with their double A vs. single A team. Of course, competition may be a bit weaker, but really, when you think about it - there's no reason why a major league team couldn't put their best prospects in single A and call them up directly from there, besides the obvious jump in competition on each level.

They could, but it would be absurd from a player development standpoint. The whole point of having levels is so the prospects can play against "just right" competition. There's no purpose to having players who should be in Low-A being body-slammed by the Southern League, while AA-level players who should be in finishing school for the majors are destroying inferior opposition and learning little from it.


It would be nice to have some geographical connection though, so many organizations have completely off the wall connections to areas. San Francisco Giants affiliate in CONNECTICUT? That's just ... odd.

It's not ideal but sometimes there's no choice. None of the Double-A leagues are west of Texas, so all the West Coast teams are going to have bad geographical matches there. And sometimes the logical matches just don't happen since both parties have a say in the matter.

MasonBuzz3
09-19-2008, 06:33 PM
I thought the Defenders were the AA team of the Indians?

Akron Aeros

gedred69
09-19-2008, 11:12 PM
The Reds have a respectable following in NC, dating back to before the Braves developed into a "Team". If memory serves me, I believe they even had radio affiliates in NC at one time. Every year at Spring Training games I have run into Reds fans from there. This March, I sat with a guy and his 5 year old daughter all decked out in Reds gear in Ft. Myers at a Bosox/Reds game. She was so cute I think she kept us Reds fans from being jostled out of the Park. NC sounds like a good fit.

Grande Donkey
09-20-2008, 09:54 AM
Smart money would be on the Reds to Carolina. There is about a 70% shot that is where they will end up.

CarolinaRedleg
09-20-2008, 12:54 PM
Being a Reds fan about a half hour from Winston-Salem, I'd love to see them come back into the Carolina League.

JaxRed
09-20-2008, 01:11 PM
Some thoughts: Do the Giants have commitment issues? They still are unsigned at AA, High A and and Short Season levels.

The Sarasota Reds are an odd bird: The Reds own the franchise but haven't renewed. Half the sites show them as leaving and half as staying. I just wonder if there is anything to fact that Winston-Salem hasn't resigned?

If Reds got Carolina, would they be interested in making a play for Winston-Salem as their High A team?

Gallen5862
09-20-2008, 01:13 PM
I am a Reds fan in Wilmington, NC. I hope The Reds do get the Carolina Mudcats. That would only be about a hour or so away from me.

redsof72
09-22-2008, 02:26 PM
A few comments on some of the posts. First, the Reds own the Sarasota franchise at the moment. Their agreement with that franchise extends automatically, as long as the Reds own the franchise. With spring training moving to Arizona in 2010, it is highly unlikely that the Reds would want to continue to own and operate that franchise. It is not a money maker and they would have no real reason to be in Sarasota, not to mention the fact that there would likely be some bad blood between the Reds and the city, which would make things more difficult in terms of stadium upkeep, security, etc. If the Red Sox move their spring training home to Sarasota, the Red Sox would likely be looking to sell their Salem franchise in the Carolina League. It is possible that some sort of swap could take place, although the value of the Salem franchise would be much higher than the Sarasota franchise (millions higher). This could happen at any time. Even after the October deadline passes, MLB could still approve an affiliation switch under circumstances like this if the Reds and Red Sox desired.

As far as the Dayton classification change, the thing to understand is that the owners of the Dragons, Mandalay, purchased a Midwest League franchise when they moved the Dragons to Dayton from Rockford, Illinois. Mandalay owns a Midwest League franchise. To upgrade the Dragons to a higher level, Double-A for example, Mandalay would have to purchase an existing Eastern League or Southern League franchise (costs usually run in the $10 million range) and move that franchise to Dayton. They would still own the Midwest League franchise, so they would need to find another Midwest League city (with a suitable stadium) to relocate the Dayton franchise to. They would also have to most likely pay some kind of territorial fee to the Midwest League for taking the Dayton territory from the league. They would need to pay a relocation fee to the Midwest League for moving the Dayton franchise to wherever it went, and they would need to pay another relocation fee to the Double-A league that they are joining for moving one of their franchises to Dayton. Relocation fees are usually about a million per move. Not sure what the territorial fee would be. Lastly, they would need to get approval from the Reds to move their Double-A affiliate into Dayton, which would probably be the least problematic of any of these things. You are looking at a cost of probably $13 million total. Question is, would you see enough of an increase in attendance in Dayton to justify spending that kind of money? Not sure how. They are selling out every game as it is. The one wildcard to this discussion is that Mandalay already owns an Eastern League franchise that could be moved to Dayton (Erie). In my opinion, the biggest holdup here would be finding a new Midwest League city with a ballpark in a market where Mandalay thought they could attract fans in high numbers.

Heath
09-22-2008, 04:40 PM
It was announced that New Orleans will be the Florida AAA club. I thought that was interesting. Wonder who the Mets end up with?

Heath
09-22-2008, 04:40 PM
It was announced that New Orleans will be the Florida AAA club. I thought that was interesting. Wonder who the Mets end up with?

Oh, I forgot Buffalo's available.

JaxRed
09-22-2008, 04:53 PM
Mets signed before Florida did.

Redsof72, I did not know it was possible to swap after the agreement in High A. That throws a new wrinkle in things. I assumed Reds would have to officially annouce an extension since Boston had to with Salem. On the other hand, Boston wasn't with them.

redsof72
09-22-2008, 05:12 PM
In some situations, exceptions have been made and a swap has been permitted after the deadline or after one year of a two year agreement. If the Red Sox worked out a spring training deal with the city of Sarasota in, say, December, I would expect that MLB would allow the Red Sox to move their high-A club there and allow the Reds to go into Salem if the Reds wanted to do that. There would have to be some negotiations because, again, those high-A clubs are actually owned by their parent clubs and they could not do a clear swap because the Salem team is profitable (I assume) and the Sarasota team operates at a loss. The value of the Salem franchise would far exceed the value of the Sarasota franchise.

I remember a few years back, the Peoria Chiefs announced a new PDC in October and several months later, before the start of the season, they announced a swap with another Midwest League team (I think it was Battle Creek if my memory is correct) to bring a different affiliate to Peoria.

JaxRed
09-23-2008, 10:33 AM
The long rumored Yankees/Trenton extension apparently has occurred with press conference scheduled for tomorrow. C'mon Carolina.... make it happen.

Strider
09-24-2008, 05:36 PM
For what it's worth...I emailed the sports reporter for the News Observer to see if he had any insight as to whether the Reds or Giants would be the parent club for the Mudcats. Here is what he had to say...

---------------------------------------------

There are rumors on the Internet about who is favored, but none cite
any sources. I just talked to the general manager and he said he
expected to make a decision soon, maybe this week. He has given me no
indication that there is a front runner. Sorry I can't offer any
speculation.

Javier Serna
------------------------------------------

JaxRed
09-24-2008, 06:12 PM
That's funny. I emailed him also and got same basic response..... Is waiting for the Press Release "journalism"? C'mon buddy, you never saw All The President's Men"? Get some sources......

M2
09-24-2008, 07:44 PM
Is waiting for the Press Release "journalism"?

These days? Unfortunately, yes.

Side thought on minor league level jumping: the current system is built to protect the status quo, almost every system is. Yet comes a time every now and then when people decide they don't like the status quo. The attendance in the FSL, Cali and Carolina leagues is weak, particularly the FSL. The MWL, Sally and New York-Penn leagues are thriving. At some point, the affiliates with higher attendance are going to get itchy and demand the system get an overall. It won't be one team asking, it will be blocks of teams and entire leagues.

JaxRed
09-25-2008, 11:56 AM
From Baseball America -

In other news, Double-A Carolina will announce its affiliation with either the Reds or Giants at a press conference tomorrow.

flyer85
09-25-2008, 01:29 PM
hopefully these guys are protecting the launch codes as well.

RedsManRick
09-25-2008, 01:35 PM
That's funny. I emailed him also and got same basic response..... Is waiting for the Press Release "journalism"? C'mon buddy, you never saw All The President's Men"? Get some sources......

I'll take this over unfounded speculation passed off as journalism any day. Sometimes you just can't get the info.

Grande Donkey
09-25-2008, 02:57 PM
The Reds got Carolina. It is unofficially official.

OnBaseMachine
09-25-2008, 03:00 PM
The Reds got Carolina. It is unofficially official.

Good. I really didn't wanna have to spell out Connecticut 20 times a night during the minor league game threads. ;)

JaxRed
09-25-2008, 04:31 PM
The Reds got Carolina. It is unofficially official.

That would be great.

Highlifeman21
09-25-2008, 04:40 PM
Good. I really didn't wanna have to spell out Connecticut 20 times a night during the minor league game threads. ;)

CT is a lot easier...

JaxRed
09-25-2008, 04:45 PM
It's 100% official: From baseball America

Looks like Double-A Connecticut took the surprise out of Double-A Carolina’s player-development contract press conference tomorrow buy announcing that the Defenders will once again be a Giants affiliate. That means the Reds will be coming to Zebulon to replace the outgoing Marlins.

The Giants and Connecticut have been together six years, and despite the delay of the announcement, the clubs insist their relationship is strong. Their new two-year PDC runs through the 2010 season.

“The Giants organization and our minor league players and coaches appreciate the hard work of the Connecticut front office staff and the support of City leaders and fans in Connecticut,” Giants farm director Bobby Evans said in a release. “We have a lot of young talent ready to be tested at a (Double-A) level and look forward to the 2009 season in Norwich.”

NC Reds
09-25-2008, 05:55 PM
It's 100% official: From baseball America

Looks like Double-A Connecticut took the surprise out of Double-A Carolina’s player-development contract press conference tomorrow buy announcing that the Defenders will once again be a Giants affiliate. That means the Reds will be coming to Zebulon to replace the outgoing Marlins.

The Giants and Connecticut have been together six years, and despite the delay of the announcement, the clubs insist their relationship is strong. Their new two-year PDC runs through the 2010 season.

“The Giants organization and our minor league players and coaches appreciate the hard work of the Connecticut front office staff and the support of City leaders and fans in Connecticut,” Giants farm director Bobby Evans said in a release. “We have a lot of young talent ready to be tested at a (Double-A) level and look forward to the 2009 season in Norwich.”

Sweet. I will be attending some Mudcats games again next year. :thumbup:

nemesis
09-25-2008, 06:48 PM
Does all this mean we were the last kid picked in dodgeball?

Is there some kinda unknown rift that was caused by what we are doing in Sarasota?

Just seems odd we got them by default.

Dayton draws phenominal, Louisville the same. We have a bevy of prospects coming thru the pipe line... Seems like we'd be a top choice amongst these teams... Odd...

remdog
09-25-2008, 08:15 PM
Sweet. I will be attending some Mudcats games again next year. :thumbup:

Reminds me of Mudcat Grant, pitcher for the Indians when I was, ahem, a little younger. :)

Rem

Caveat Emperor
09-25-2008, 09:33 PM
Dayton draws phenominal, Louisville the same. We have a bevy of prospects coming thru the pipe line... Seems like we'd be a top choice amongst these teams... Odd...

I still don't see why a minor league team, which is independently owned and operated, would give a crap who their major league affiliate is so long as they remain stocked with some top propsects and minor-league fillers to keep the team competitive and winning.

Reds / Marlins / Giants -- does it really make a difference where the kid standing at 3rd is headed for his next call up? I tend to think nobody at a minor league game would care.

JaxRed
09-26-2008, 01:10 AM
And no, we weren't the last choice. There's a Ct Defenders blog that described how both Reds and Giants were pursuing Carolina hard. Carolina could be patient at the end because they knew they had all the power. When Carolina scheduled news conference Giants knew they weren't picked so they went back to Ct.

http://connecticut-defenders.blogspot.com/2008/09/sad-saga.html

Mario-Rijo
09-26-2008, 07:16 AM
Nice, now if we can just swap with Boston for Winston-Salem is it??

JaxRed
09-26-2008, 07:55 AM
Nice, now if we can just swap with Boston for Winston-Salem is it??

I'm okay with waiting a year or two for that......

Edd Roush
09-26-2008, 11:16 AM
Looks like Zebulon, NC is about a nine hour drive from Cincy. Any one else planning on trying to road trip down there?

HokieRed
09-26-2008, 11:25 AM
As a long-time frequenter of minor-league games, I can say that lots of minor league fans do care about the major league affiliates. When the moderately small town where my team is located had a really close (geographically) relationship to our affiliate, there was a fairly regular procession of fans who went to the major league park to see how some of their favorite players were doing--and a lot of talk all the time about how they had done. When the affiliate changed and was a team from across the country, there was not much ballpark buzz about what the players did--there was no additional interest in major league baseball initiated among these fans. There's also the crucial issue of how the major league teams allot their players. Regular minor league fans know how they're being treated. We like to win too. So I'd say there are very important features of affiliation. It's hard for me to see, for instance, how CT can be desirable for SF.

Matt700wlw
09-26-2008, 01:54 PM
MUDCATS, REDS ANNOUNCE PDC, PLUS MAJOR LEAGUE EXHIBITION

September 26, 2008



Zebulon, NC --- This afternoon the Double-A Carolina Mudcats and National League’s Cincinnati Reds jointly announced the signing of a two-year player development contract running through the 2010 season. Additionally, the Mudcats will be hosting a major league exhibition game with the Reds on Friday, April 3rd, 2009 at Five County Stadium.



“The Reds are a baseball icon and we’re proud to have such a highly-rated minor league system coming our way,” remarked Mudcats owner Steve Bryant, noting that Baseball America ranked the Reds’ minor league organization 3rd in baseball entering 2008. “It speaks well of the Mudcats organization that Cincinnati has been so highly interested in being here.”



“We’re very excited about having the Reds partner with us,” commented Carolina’s General Manager Joe Kremer. “Many Midwesterners have relocated to North Carolina over the years, including a large number of Buckeyes and a very strong Reds following.”



The Reds represent the oldest existing major league team, established in 1882 and joining the National League in 1890, winning nine N.L. pennants and five World Championships.



The Mudcats begin their Cincinnati era on Thursday, April 9th against the defending Southern League champions Mississippi Braves at Trustmark Park in Pearl, MS.

dougdirt
09-26-2008, 02:15 PM
The Mudcats begin their Cincinnati era on Thursday, April 9th against the defending Southern League champions Mississippi Braves at Trustmark Park in Pearl, MS.

Happy Birthday ME!

JaxRed
09-26-2008, 04:42 PM
MUDCATS, REDS ANNOUNCE PDC, PLUS MAJOR LEAGUE EXHIBITION

September 26, 2008



Zebulon, NC --- This afternoon the Double-A Carolina Mudcats and National League’s Cincinnati Reds jointly announced the signing of a two-year player development contract running through the 2010 season. Additionally, the Mudcats will be hosting a major league exhibition game with the Reds on Friday, April 3rd, 2009 at Five County Stadium.

.


I realize there is more time next year than most, but it's ironic that Mudcats get exhibition when that was one of Lookouts big gripes with us.

I wonder if that helped sweeten the pot for Mudcats

Redman15
09-26-2008, 04:51 PM
I heard that Frank Burke was really pissed about not getting the exhibition game. He advertised the Reds were coming to town and everything and then no game.

kaldaniels
09-26-2008, 05:04 PM
On a superficial level, I'm excited about getting Carolina...I love their logo :thumbup:

CarolinaRedleg
09-26-2008, 05:33 PM
My sister and brother-in-law live in Raleigh.

So I'm SO going to that exhibition.

carmack42
09-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Excellent. Bring on the new logo. Same mudcat, but swimming through the wishbone. It will be awesome.

And thanks for staying in the Southern League. We'll see you in Huntsville.

BigRed07
10-01-2008, 12:34 AM
I have a blue Lookout hat that they wore on the 4th of July along with a blue jersey I won in a auction. They look pretty cool.

Not that anybody really cares but here is a link for the Lookouts new uniforms.

http://www.lookouts.com/images/downloads/2009%20Lookouts.pdf

highheat11
10-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Not that anybody really cares but here is a link for the Lookouts new uniforms.

http://www.lookouts.com/images/downloads/2009%20Lookouts.pdf

I'm actually surprised at how good those look. When I heard they were going with more of a Dodgers look I was imagining something much worse looking.

TheOnlyRedsFan
10-03-2008, 07:48 AM
Whats the new logo look like?

highheat11
10-03-2008, 02:19 PM
Whats the new logo look like?

Its the same logo, but the hat is just blue instead of red. And the fonts on the jersey are the same as the Dodgers.

Heath
10-03-2008, 03:16 PM
I wonder if the Carolina "C" would be replaced with a Wishbone C.

highheat11
10-05-2008, 10:51 PM
I wonder if the Carolina "C" would be replaced with a Wishbone C.

I hope so. That'd be pretty cool looking. I haven't seen anything so far about them changing any aspects of the uniforms though.

JaxRed
10-05-2008, 11:13 PM
I doubt seriously if they change their logo.

Lockdwn11
10-06-2008, 06:08 PM
I'm actually surprised at how good those look. When I heard they were going with more of a Dodgers look I was imagining something much worse looking.

Looks more Cubish to me.

CarolinaRedleg
10-06-2008, 06:26 PM
For those who aren't familiar, this is the Mudcats' logo

http://www.carolinamudcats.com/Images/Logo-White-Background.gif

Grande Donkey
10-06-2008, 07:07 PM
New Mudcats logo?

http://picjoint.com//files/20/mudcats.bmp

Eh... not very good work. I did it in paint in like 3 minutes. I still like the concept of it.

Yachtzee
10-06-2008, 08:53 PM
Count me as one who is kind of sad they didn't go with CT. It would have been nice to see Reds minor leaguers on the road in Akron. However, I think the best deal would have been to follow the Indians lead and have their AA team closer to home, in Dayton. The Indians have their AA team in Akron. They've also taken the interesting step of putting an A team, the Lake County Captains in a Cleveland suburb, yet they play in the Sally League. So why not have Dayton play in the Eastern or Carolina Leagues? I think it makes sense to have your higher levels closer to home. Not only does it make it an easier trip for the FO to visit the lower levels, but it gives the team plenty of options for things like rehab starts (which are also a boon to the minor league team). The Aeros regularly see rehab starts from Indians starters. Plus, Reds fans could follow players from Dayton to Louisville to the Reds.

Caveat Emperor
10-09-2008, 09:20 PM
Opens up a new take on a classic joke:

What's the difference between the Cincinnati Reds and a Mudcat?

One's a bottom-dweller, stuck beneath the surface and feeding off the scraps, the other is a minor league mascot.

icee82
10-29-2008, 09:25 PM
I am really excited about this. I live approximately two hours from Five County Stadium and have been there numerous times. This stadium is very strange. The seats are very, very close to the field. They are so close that a huge net stretches almost the entire length of the seats to protect people in the lower deck from foul balls. There are actually more seats in the upper deck than downstairs. The stadium is just outside of Raleigh, NC and there is really nothing around the stadium. It is out in the middle of no where. FYI...if you are coming down from Cincy and want to catch some autograph action, the visitors clubhouse is outside of the right field fence. The players have to walk from the clubhouse into the stadium in the right field corner. However my guess is that the Reds will use the home clubhouse which is down the left field line and the prospects will use the right field clubhouse. The Marlins played the Mudcats there five years ago and that is how they did it. I am sitting right beside the Reds' dugout at the exhibition game. The tickets went on sale at 9 A.M. I was printing them out at 9:05 A.M. I am ready for the season to start today!!!

RED VAN HOT
10-29-2008, 09:59 PM
sounds like a very small foul area. We'll have to remember that when evaluating stats. I have always felt that the large foul area in Oakland made their pitching appear better than it really was.

Mario-Rijo
10-30-2008, 05:28 PM
I am really excited about this. I live approximately two hours from Five County Stadium and have been there numerous times. This stadium is very strange. The seats are very, very close to the field. They are so close that a huge net stretches almost the entire length of the seats to protect people in the lower deck from foul balls. There are actually more seats in the upper deck than downstairs. The stadium is just outside of Raleigh, NC and there is really nothing around the stadium. It is out in the middle of no where. FYI...if you are coming down from Cincy and want to catch some autograph action, the visitors clubhouse is outside of the right field fence. The players have to walk from the clubhouse into the stadium in the right field corner. However my guess is that the Reds will use the home clubhouse which is down the left field line and the prospects will use the right field clubhouse. The Marlins played the Mudcats there five years ago and that is how they did it. I am sitting right beside the Reds' dugout at the exhibition game. The tickets went on sale at 9 A.M. I was printing them out at 9:05 A.M. I am ready for the season to start today!!!

Good 1st post Icee, keep it coming. And welcome!

gedred69
11-01-2008, 09:52 PM
I am really excited about this. I live approximately two hours from Five County Stadium and have been there numerous times. This stadium is very strange. The seats are very, very close to the field. They are so close that a huge net stretches almost the entire length of the seats to protect people in the lower deck from foul balls. There are actually more seats in the upper deck than downstairs. The stadium is just outside of Raleigh, NC and there is really nothing around the stadium. It is out in the middle of no where. FYI...if you are coming down from Cincy and want to catch some autograph action, the visitors clubhouse is outside of the right field fence. The players have to walk from the clubhouse into the stadium in the right field corner. However my guess is that the Reds will use the home clubhouse which is down the left field line and the prospects will use the right field clubhouse. The Marlins played the Mudcats there five years ago and that is how they did it. I am sitting right beside the Reds' dugout at the exhibition game. The tickets went on sale at 9 A.M. I was printing them out at 9:05 A.M. I am ready for the season to start today!!!


Okay, for now at least you are the official Redszone rep for AA. Hope you do a much better job of keeping this site apprised of what's happening than those from Chattanooga did!. AA is such an important level, it is the make or break point it seems. If a player does well at AA, he's good enough to play MLB, (as long as the distractions are kept at Bay)!! Look forward to hearing from you often.