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OnBaseMachine
09-26-2008, 07:57 PM
The Hawaii Winter League gets underway tomorrow night at 7:00 Hawaii time, which is midnight Cincinnati time I think. Instead of creating new threads for each game we can just post updates and box scores in this thread. We can do the same with the AFL when it begins in a couple weeks.

Yonder Alonso, Todd Frazier, and Philippe Valiquette are representing the Reds in the Hawaii Winter League.

OnBaseMachine
09-27-2008, 03:48 PM
1. Yonder Alonso, Waikiki (Reds). The seventh overall pick this June went 6-for-19 with five walks in six Florida State League games after signing at the deadline. His offensive upside is tremendous, but that bat is his only tool.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8126

Matt700wlw
09-27-2008, 05:55 PM
I've seen Hawaiian league baseball on Channel 25 before....that's not cable..that's Channel 25.

robmadden1
09-27-2008, 09:05 PM
The games wont show until the season is over usally on 25. At least I think so. Thats the only time I have seen them.

OnBaseMachine
09-28-2008, 12:23 AM
Todd Frazier is batting third and playing first base. Alonso isn't playing - he may still be in Florida. The game starts at 1:00 AM...I forgot Hawaii is six hours behind us, not five.

OnBaseMachine
09-28-2008, 01:20 AM
Frazier grounded out in his first atbat.

OnBaseMachine
09-28-2008, 02:12 AM
Frazier hit a sac fly in his second plate appearance.

OnBaseMachine
09-28-2008, 11:52 AM
Todd Frazier finished 0-for-3 with a sac fly in the first game of the Hawaii Winter League season (September 27th). They play again tonight at 7:00.

mth123
09-28-2008, 08:25 PM
Sept 28th: Frazier with an RBI double in the bottom of the 4th. He's 1 for 2.

OnBaseMachine
09-28-2008, 08:50 PM
Valiquette just threw an inning: 1 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 0 K

mth123
09-28-2008, 08:56 PM
Frazier singles 2 for 3.

Gallen5862
09-28-2008, 09:43 PM
Thanks for the updates MTH123. :)

OnBaseMachine
09-29-2008, 11:07 AM
9/28 game:

Frazier finished 2-for-4 with a double

Valiquette: 2 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 4 BB, 2 K

GOYA
09-29-2008, 08:54 PM
Valiquette also had 2 WP, 3 unearned runs, 1 HR and a PB that could have been considered a 3rd WP. I saw the game and he looked pretty bad.

Also, I never knew he wore glasses while pitching.

camisadelgolf
09-30-2008, 01:42 AM
Valiquette also had 2 WP, 3 unearned runs, 1 HR and a PB that could have been considered a 3rd WP. I saw the game and he looked pretty bad.

Also, I never knew he wore glasses while pitching.

http://www.floridafreeways.org/wildthing.jpg

OnBaseMachine
10-01-2008, 01:14 AM
9/30:

Frazier is batting third and playing shortstop.

OnBaseMachine
10-01-2008, 02:21 AM
Frazier grounds out on a 3-2 pitch in his first atbat.

mth123
10-01-2008, 03:48 AM
Frazier with a 2 Run HR.

OnBaseMachine
10-01-2008, 04:52 AM
9/30 game:

Frazier finished 2-for-4 with a double, home run, and 3 RBI.

OnBaseMachine
10-02-2008, 01:15 AM
10/1 game:

Frazier is 1-for-1 with a double.

OnBaseMachine
10-02-2008, 01:58 AM
Frazier is now 2-for-2 with a double.

mth123
10-02-2008, 03:49 AM
Frazier 2 for 4 with 2 errors at SS. I'd like to see him get some time at 3B, 2B and LF. He's already played a couple games at 1B and, with tonight, 2 at SS. With all the other spots filled and Frazier probably not an option at SS, his bat would be an awesome weapon as an offensively minded supersub. It would also be a way to avoid his defense killing a single spot on a day in day out basis. If he keeps hitting in Hawaii, he may be a nice chip to include in a deal.

mth123
10-02-2008, 04:19 AM
October 1:

Frazier finished 2 for 5 with a double and 2 errors at SS.

Phil Valiquette pitched an inning and a third with a hit, a BB and 2 ER allowed. He was charged with a blown save and the loss.

klw
10-02-2008, 10:36 AM
Does the Hawaiian league have a reputation as a hitter's league? Otherwise it would seem that Mr. Frazier is comporting himself well.

princeton
10-02-2008, 11:29 AM
Does the Hawaiian league have a reputation as a hitter's league?


Philippe Valiquette dit "oui"

Chip R
10-02-2008, 12:16 PM
Does the Hawaiian league have a reputation as a hitter's league? Otherwise it would seem that Mr. Frazier is comporting himself well.


If Frazier's any indication, it's certainly not a fielder's league.

JKam
10-02-2008, 01:43 PM
Does the Hawaiian league have a reputation as a hitter's league? Otherwise it would seem that Mr. Frazier is comporting himself well.

The Hawaii League is considered more of a pitcher's league. Last year, Valaika had a rough start and it was noted that this is more of a pitcher's league.

Besides playing at sea level and with heavy humid air (the ball doesn't carry as well), Les Murakami Stadium, where some of the games are played, is definitely a pitcher's park - big dimensions and astroturf field. University of Hawaii plays their home games at Les Murakami Stadium and they build their teams around team speed and defense because there aren't a lot of homeruns to be had. Having said that, most of the games are at Hans L'Orange Park which I'm not too familiar with.

OnBaseMachine
10-03-2008, 02:15 AM
10/2:

Frazier is 1-for-3 with a double.

mth123
10-03-2008, 04:05 AM
Frazier 1 for 4 with a double. He played 1B and had a thowing error. Frazier's bat looks awesome so far. Through 5 games he has 4 doubles and a HR. OTOH he has played 3 games at 1B and 2 games at SS. He has 4 errors.

HokieRed
10-03-2008, 10:58 AM
Starting to sound as if Frazier may be an addition to the developing logjam in LF.

medford
10-03-2008, 12:06 PM
Will yonder make it to Hawaii? How long is the season?

OnBaseMachine
10-03-2008, 01:14 PM
Will yonder make it to Hawaii? How long is the season?

Yonder is probably still in Instructional League. The Hawaiin League regular season ends on November 15th.

dougdirt
10-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Yonder is expected to play in the next day or two.

mth123
10-04-2008, 07:33 AM
10-3:

Frazier 0 for 3 with a sac fly. He played LF.

OnBaseMachine
10-05-2008, 11:40 AM
10/4 game:

Frazier went 2-for-4 with a double and a walk. Through seven games (27 atbats), Frazier is hitting .333/.355/.630 - .985 OPS with five doubles and one homer.

mth123
10-05-2008, 02:33 PM
10/4 game:

Frazier went 2-for-4 with a double and a walk. Through seven games (27 atbats), Frazier is hitting .333/.355/.630 - .985 OPS with five doubles and one homer.

Frazier is poised for a quick climb in 2009, IMO. He already has 400+ PA in High A and the Hawaiin league adds to his prep time. He's a RH bat with some pop who realistically fits best defensively at 1B or a Corner OF spot. It seems that the Reds happen to be looking for a RH bat for one of those spots. I'd make do with a stopgap to start the year and wait for Frazier and Alonzo to arrive. The Reds may have quite a crowd by the end of 2009 and trading a bunch of stuff or committing long term to LF seems like a waste of resources when there are glaring needs elsewhere. I think Frazier starts in AA with a quick promotion to AAA with a good month or so added to his Hawaiin time. He could be in Cincy by the end of the year and actaully beat Alonso to the team. If Frazier could play RF, we could see Bruce in CF, Votto in LF and Alonso at 1B and Dickerson as the 4th OF and defensive replacement.

Another option might be Alonso at 1B, Votto LF, Dickerson/Stubbs/Heisey in CF with Bruce in RF and Frazier a supersub. Frazier played 3B last night. I'd like to see him spend a lot of time in RF.

OnBaseMachine
10-05-2008, 07:56 PM
10/5 game:

Yonder Alonso has finally made his way to Hawaii.

Alonso: 1-for-2
Frazier: 1-for-2

OnBaseMachine
10-05-2008, 08:30 PM
Frazier is now 2-for-3 while Alonso is 1-for-3.

dougdirt
10-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Yonder is expected to play in the next day or two.

Sources are good to have. :D

medford
10-06-2008, 12:09 PM
thanks for the updates. It would seem to me that an outfield of Votto-Bruce-Frazier would be along the lines (though slightly more athletic) than the OF rotation that we've been seeing the last couple of years in Cincy. If nothing else, Patterson & Dickerson's defense proved to me (or reproved) the value of a pick 'em up and set 'em down, go get 'em defender in the outfielder. Patterson's offense is obviously a different subject, but I don't think it wise to just put your 3 best sluggers in the outfield and run with it.

Having a guy that can hit a little (or a lot) and go get 'em in the outfielder seems like a wise move. Dickerson has certainly encouraged me the last month of the season, but time will tell if that holds up. I'd be very weary of a Votto-Bruce-Frazier outfield. I think cincy would be back to more of what we've seen the last 3 years.

Me: I like Bruce in RF, either Votto or Frazier (or Edwin or a stud via trade or FA) in LF and a solid glove w/ a little pop (or leadoff capability) in CF. Seems like Dickerson & Stubbs give the reds two potential options for that CF spot. Lock down LF w/ a semi-competant defender w/ a good bat, and Bruce in RF and they're on to something truely special.

medford
10-06-2008, 12:10 PM
Sources are good to have. :D

So what is it when you're my source Doug? :D

Will M
10-06-2008, 12:45 PM
thanks for the updates. It would seem to me that an outfield of Votto-Bruce-Frazier would be along the lines (though slightly more athletic) than the OF rotation that we've been seeing the last couple of years in Cincy. If nothing else, Patterson & Dickerson's defense proved to me (or reproved) the value of a pick 'em up and set 'em down, go get 'em defender in the outfielder. Patterson's offense is obviously a different subject, but I don't think it wise to just put your 3 best sluggers in the outfield and run with it.

Having a guy that can hit a little (or a lot) and go get 'em in the outfielder seems like a wise move. Dickerson has certainly encouraged me the last month of the season, but time will tell if that holds up. I'd be very weary of a Votto-Bruce-Frazier outfield. I think cincy would be back to more of what we've seen the last 3 years.

Me: I like Bruce in RF, either Votto or Frazier (or Edwin or a stud via trade or FA) in LF and a solid glove w/ a little pop (or leadoff capability) in CF. Seems like Dickerson & Stubbs give the reds two potential options for that CF spot. Lock down LF w/ a semi-competant defender w/ a good bat, and Bruce in RF and they're on to something truely special.

well said. a speed burner in CF is needed to field a strong defensive team.
that guy is likely Stubbs and/or Dickerson.
Dickerson had a great start. I doubt he is an everyday CF but he could be a platoon CF or a good 4th OF.

Nasty_Boy
10-07-2008, 11:03 AM
I would be more than happy if the Reds went young next season. I have no intrest in seeing them pick up veteran journeymen like they have so many times in years past. Trust your scouts and your system and go young. Unless drastic measures are taken, this team probably isn't going to compete next season. So see what the young guys are made of, so you know who to trade and who to keep. Maybe even clear so payroll in order to make a run in 2010, once most of the prospects mature. I could handle a losing season in '09 if I see a plan being put in action (a plan would include no CPat or Bako type players).

Spring~Fields
10-07-2008, 08:19 PM
I would be more than happy if the Reds went young next season. I have no intrest in seeing them pick up veteran journeymen like they have so many times in years past. Trust your scouts and your system and go young. Unless drastic measures are taken, this team probably isn't going to compete next season.

I would also be happy if they continued with the young movement. I believe there are young guys on the team and still out there that can bring quality baseball back to Cincy. I'm also tired of the vets and the ball and chain contracts that they bring. A next year with youth might not be a losing season, they might fool a lot of us if the right players are obtained and given an opportunity.

mth123
10-07-2008, 08:45 PM
10-7: Hawaiin game starts shortly. Frazier at 3B batting third. Alonso hitting 4th at 1B.

mth123
10-07-2008, 09:06 PM
Frazier flies out and Alonso grounds out in the 1st.

mth123
10-07-2008, 09:38 PM
Frazier with a double. Alonso up.

mth123
10-07-2008, 09:40 PM
Alonso K's.

mth123
10-07-2008, 10:05 PM
Frazier singles. 2 for 3. His stock is rising with this Hawaii League perfromance IMO.

mth123
10-07-2008, 10:07 PM
Alonso doubles in a run. 1 for 3.

mth123
10-07-2008, 11:26 PM
Frazier finishes 2 for 4 with a double.
Alonso 1 for 3 with a 2B and a walk.

Kc61
10-07-2008, 11:39 PM
Frazier is poised for a quick climb in 2009, IMO. He already has 400+ PA in High A and the Hawaiin league adds to his prep time. He's a RH bat with some pop who realistically fits best defensively at 1B or a Corner OF spot. It seems that the Reds happen to be looking for a RH bat for one of those spots. I'd make do with a stopgap to start the year and wait for Frazier and Alonzo to arrive. The Reds may have quite a crowd by the end of 2009 and trading a bunch o.


Do you folks think Frazier will be traded?

I think there's a good chance. He doesn't have a clear defensive position. The Reds are supposedly stressing defense now. So guys like Frazier and maybe Valaika seem more likely to be traded than, say, Stubbs a plus defender.

If the Reds are going to make big trades, they have to trade somebody. They won't get much trading lesser prospects or backup players. How do they make trades without including something good in the trade?

Would like to see Frazier with the Reds. I hope they keep him. Not sure they will.

redsfandan
10-07-2008, 11:47 PM
maybe frazier will be our leftfielder in 2010 for an outfield of frazier, stubbs, and bruce.

HokieRed
10-07-2008, 11:59 PM
I'm hoping that outfield reads Votto, Stubbs, and Bruce, with Frazier at 3b and Alonso on 1st. EE, whom I like, will have been traded, in this scenario, for an upgrade at SS, 2B, or C.

redsfandan
10-08-2008, 01:00 AM
i just hope that whoever we have at 3rd (frazier, alonso, soto, etc) can play it well.

mth123
10-08-2008, 05:47 AM
Do you folks think Frazier will be traded?

I think there's a good chance. He doesn't have a clear defensive position. The Reds are supposedly stressing defense now. So guys like Frazier and maybe Valaika seem more likely to be traded than, say, Stubbs a plus defender.

If the Reds are going to make big trades, they have to trade somebody. They won't get much trading lesser prospects or backup players. How do they make trades without including something good in the trade?

Would like to see Frazier with the Reds. I hope they keep him. Not sure they will.

I think he could be. If the Reds could get a player or two at areas where they have nothing (SS, C) I'd deal him. He certainly could be part of a package. I still think, to get what they need, the trade bait starts with near ready starting pitchers Bailey, Thompson, Maloney, maybe Ramirez or even Owings. A reliever like Roenicke as well and prospects at premium defensive positions would probably be next on the list which is where Stubbs comes in.

IMO, Votto in LF, Bruce in RF, and Phillips at 2B is probably the starting point for this team. In CF, the in house options are probably adequate. In 2009, Dickerson/FReel could hold it down. Beyond that Chris Heisey could slide right into Freel's spot as the RH side of the platoon which would free Stubbs for a deal to shore up the middle infield. Dickerson and Heisey are both strong defenders in CF. Alonso is probably the answer for 1B. Hanigan can probably handle some of the catching load, while Castillo is probably best as a muti-position bench player who can catch. Another catcher who is at least going to split the spot with Hanigan and preferably become the main guy is needed from outside the organization.

That just leaves the left side of the IF. I'd stick with EdE for another year at 3B and see if he improves and increases his trade value (unless of course a deal comes along where EdE can be used to fill other needs). Eventually, Neftali Soto looks like the guy for 3B. Juan Francisco should probably be added to the list of players to shop, but a LH Bat, with mega power and plus defense, at 3B is kind of compelling so if the Reds keep him around to see what happens that would be fine by me as well. Frazier's defensive issues suggest to me that he needs to be a multi-positional bench player with a plus bat if there is no room in LF or 1B for him. The biggest damage that a poor defender causes to a team is the day in day out load it puts on the pitching staff by not making the plays (we saw multiple examples of that in 2008 with Griffey, Keppinger and to a lesser extent Dunn and EdE), but moving him around somewhat limits that problem. Of course if he proves to be a good defender at a spot, his bat looks like a plus so he could force his way in. If he could play RF, there is a possibility that Bruce could play in CF for a few years between Frazier and Votto, but I'd prefer Bruce in RF and a better defender in CF. Whichever guys don't fit shoud probably be dealt for a SS. The Reds have no in house options to adequately man that spot in 2009 or the near future. I'd add Valaika and Keppinger to the list of guys to deal in the attempt to get somebody.

Whichever direction they go, Frazier's performance in Hawaii seems to be moving the timeline ahead for him to make a jump to the majors and is increasing his value. I see a short stay in AA if he continues to hit in Hawaii and gets off to a good start. A quick jump to AAA would make him a candidate for the big league team at any time and I'm guessing that we'll see him in a Red's uniform before the end of 2009 (if he isn't dealt). I hope he keeps tearing it up. It only helps to solve some of the Reds issues.

mace
10-08-2008, 10:17 AM
I'm not so sure that Frazier has "defensive issues," if that's meant to imply that he's problematic defensively. Of course, I've never seen him play. But I'm leaning on the fact that the Reds continue to at least look at him as a SS. Granted, he's not projected to remain there, but if he's still being employed (at least partially) at the most difficult defensive position, it seems to me that defense is not a particular weakness. It's probably a weakness in terms of being a SS. But I would think it projects well for other positions -- well enough, I'd suspect, that he could be much more than a utility player.

Will M
10-08-2008, 10:41 AM
I think he could be. If the Reds could get a player or two at areas where they have nothing (SS, C) I'd deal him. He certainly could be part of a package. I still think, to get what they need, the trade bait starts with near ready starting pitchers Bailey, Thompson, Maloney, maybe Ramirez or even Owings. A reliever like Roenicke as well and prospects at premium defensive positions would probably be next on the list which is where Stubbs comes in.

IMO, Votto in LF, Bruce in RF, and Phillips at 2B is probably the starting point for this team. In CF, the in house options are probably adequate. In 2009, Dickerson/FReel could hold it down. Beyond that Chris Heisey could slide right into Freel's spot as the RH side of the platoon which would free Stubbs for a deal to shore up the middle infield. Dickerson and Heisey are both strong defenders in CF. Alonso is probably the answer for 1B. Hanigan can probably handle some of the catching load, while Castillo is probably best as a muti-position bench player who can catch. Another catcher who is at least going to split the spot with Hanigan and preferably become the main guy is needed from outside the organization.

That just leaves the left side of the IF. I'd stick with EdE for another year at 3B and see if he improves and increases his trade value (unless of course a deal comes along where EdE can be used to fill other needs). Eventually, Neftali Soto looks like the guy for 3B. Juan Francisco should probably be added to the list of players to shop, but a LH Bat, with mega power and plus defense, at 3B is kind of compelling so if the Reds keep him around to see what happens that would be fine by me as well. Frazier's defensive issues suggest to me that he needs to be a multi-positional bench player with a plus bat if there is no room in LF or 1B for him. The biggest damage that a poor defender causes to a team is the day in day out load it puts on the pitching staff by not making the plays (we saw multiple examples of that in 2008 with Griffey, Keppinger and to a lesser extent Dunn and EdE), but moving him around somewhat limits that problem. Of course if he proves to be a good defender at a spot, his bat looks like a plus so he could force his way in. If he could play RF, there is a possibility that Bruce could play in CF for a few years between Frazier and Votto, but I'd prefer Bruce in RF and a better defender in CF. Whichever guys don't fit shoud probably be dealt for a SS. The Reds have no in house options to adequately man that spot in 2009 or the near future. I'd add Valaika and Keppinger to the list of guys to deal in the attempt to get somebody.

Whichever direction they go, Frazier's performance in Hawaii seems to be moving the timeline ahead for him to make a jump to the majors and is increasing his value. I see a short stay in AA if he continues to hit in Hawaii and gets off to a good start. A quick jump to AAA would make him a candidate for the big league team at any time and I'm guessing that we'll see him in a Red's uniform before the end of 2009 (if he isn't dealt). I hope he keeps tearing it up. It only helps to solve some of the Reds issues.

nice post.

The player I would most like to see the Reds acquire is JJ Hardy.
He gets it done offensively & defensively. He is available as the Brewers have a stud SS prospect ready for the bigs. In your opinion how much is too much to pay? In another thread I suggested Frazier, Bailey & Stubbs for Hardy.
These guys are all good or very good prospects but Hardy is All Star caliber and young.

mace
10-08-2008, 11:07 AM
Can anybody shed light on just how good Hardy is defensively?

camisadelgolf
10-08-2008, 11:20 AM
Can anybody shed light on just how good Hardy is defensively?

I'd say he's about average. His range isn't great, but he makes relatively few errors for a shortstop. He's more valuable for his offense, and he'll probably be moved off of shortstop before his mid-30s.

mace
10-08-2008, 11:37 AM
So, Keppinger with an extra step. Is that about right?

Will M
10-08-2008, 11:42 AM
I'd say he's about average. His range isn't great, but he makes relatively few errors for a shortstop. He's more valuable for his offense, and he'll probably be moved off of shortstop before his mid-30s.

Hardy's RF was 4.48 vs Kep's 4.00

Hardy's ZR was .813 vs Kep's .786

camisadelgolf
10-08-2008, 12:08 PM
So, Keppinger with an extra step. Is that about right?

Not exactly. I'd say he's much better than Keppinger both offensively and defensively.

From Keppinger, I expect about a .750 OPS and 4.00 RF9. From Hardy, I'd expect about a .810 OPS (and possibly much more) and 4.40 RF9.

Mario-Rijo
10-08-2008, 01:15 PM
So, Keppinger with an extra step. Is that about right?

Keppinger with about 2-2 1/2 steps and more power and perhaps a smidge less contact, almost not noticeable.

lollipopcurve
10-08-2008, 01:43 PM
I really think there's no chance the Brewers move Hardy to Cincy.

camisadelgolf
10-08-2008, 02:03 PM
I really think there's no chance the Brewers move Hardy to Cincy.

I agree, but stranger things have happened. It's nice to dream, though.

OnBaseMachine
10-08-2008, 11:11 PM
10/8 game:

Frazier went 0-for-3

Alonso went 1-for-2 solo homerun (#1), walk

So far Yonder is 3-for-9 with a double, homer, and two walks.

redhawk61
10-08-2008, 11:16 PM
10/8 game:

Frazier went 0-for-3

Alonso went 1-for-2 solo homerun (#1), walk

So far Yonder is 3-for-9 with a double, homer, and two walks. send him to chattanoga....o crap....carolina...this is going to be hard to get used to.;)

Mario-Rijo
10-09-2008, 05:04 PM
send him to chattanoga....o crap....carolina...this is going to be hard to get used to.;)

I know I pulled up an affiliations page yesterday and seen AA - Carolina Mudcats and had to do a double take.

BTW from the looks of things Chattanooga would have had a nice crop of guys to start this year, I guess they bailed one season too soon.

I think Frazier, Francisco and Alonso might all start at AA this next year. Someone needs to put up some screens out there in LF in Carolina, for fear of death so many balls could be flying out of there.

OnBaseMachine
10-09-2008, 11:05 PM
10/9 game:

Through six innings Alonso is 1-for-2 with a single and a walk while Frazier is 0-for-3.

OnBaseMachine
10-09-2008, 11:50 PM
10/9:

Waikiki lost 4-0.

Frazier: 0-for-3
Alonso: 1-for-2 walk

Valiquette: 1 IP, 2 H, 2 ER, 1 BB, 1 K

GOYA
10-10-2008, 12:04 AM
Valiquette is having a very rough time over there. I know very little about him. Was he expected to do better than this?

dougdirt
10-10-2008, 12:22 AM
Valiquette is having a very rough time over there. I know very little about him. Was he expected to do better than this?

I expected him to do a little better than he has so far.

Topcat
10-10-2008, 02:45 AM
If the Red's are ever going to get a premiere of vg shortstop it will come within or at a cost that is to high. Any person who would trade for JJ Hardy at the price tag of Homer Bailey is going to so eat those words in the time period of 2 years max.

OnBaseMachine
10-10-2008, 11:06 PM
Quick notes: Yonder Alonso, a first baseman who the Reds took seventh overall in the past draft, arrived a couple of days after I left, so I didn't see him. Outfielder Dominic Brown, a top Phillies prospect, had not arrived yet either. Reds shortstop Todd Frazier has played all over the field in Hawaii, including first base and left field. His bat is going to play in the big leagues, but I doubt he's going to stick at short, which won't help his stock with fantasy players.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?id=3636748

mth123
10-11-2008, 04:14 AM
10/10:

Alonso 1 for 3 with a walk.

Frazier DNP.

OnBaseMachine
10-11-2008, 11:18 AM
Through five games Yonder is hitting .357/.500/.643 - 1.143 OPS. He's got a hit in all five games and has walked in four straight games. Last night he worked a three ball count in three of his four plate appearances. I love it. He's exactly the type of hitter the Reds need.

RedlegJake
10-11-2008, 12:14 PM
Yonder does seem to be showing why scouts liked him - he drives the ball, has patience and discipline and seems like a well rounded hitter. Good OBP driven by both walks and BA.

OnBaseMachine
10-11-2008, 12:58 PM
A couple of things to note:

1. Take the stats from the league with a grain of salt. While the Arizona Fall League is known as a hitter's league, in Hawaii, it's all about the pitching. Both stadiums the four teams use are havens for hurlers. Les Murakami Stadium is an all-turf field, with no dirt in the infield, allowing grounders to take true hops. It has huge areas of foul territory, and the winds knock down deep flies and keep them in the park. While Hans L'Orange Park is a bit of a bandbox, the swirling winds in the outfield also make it difficult to hit the ball out.

http://sports.espn.go.com/fantasy/baseball/flb/story?id=3636748

That makes what Alonso and Frazier are doing even more impressive considering how tough that league can be for hitters.

HokieRed
10-11-2008, 03:11 PM
Yonder and Frazier are the reasons we won't be getting Matt Holliday. Now if Frazier can play third better than EE, we solve another problem by 2010.

Benihana
10-11-2008, 04:36 PM
Yonder and Frazier are the reasons we won't be getting Matt Holliday. Now if Frazier can play third better than EE, we solve another problem by 2010.

Disagree. I don't think BCast has the patience to wait around for them. I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier included in some kind of package for a more immediate offensive solution, like a Holliday or Maggs. However, I'd imagine that Alonso has a big-time future in Cincy.

HokieRed
10-11-2008, 07:19 PM
It's possible BCast doesn't have the patience. I'm counting on Walt to make better decisions. Lack of patience in this sport is one of the things that makes organizations fail year after year. Look at the ridiculous decisions that were made this year because somebody needed to believe that we were only a role player or two away from contending. We weren't anywhere near contending and we won't be next year either. By late 2010 we have a chance to be a pretty good ballclub if no incredibly counterproductive short-term moves are made in the interim. I'm putting my faith in Walt to have the savvy to resist giving away the future for a present that will only be short of the mark.

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 01:34 AM
10/11 game:

Waikiki is winning 3-0 in the third inning:

Alonso is 1-for-2 with a 2-run homer (#2)

Frazier is 0-for-1

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 02:17 AM
According to Gameday, Yonder singled off the wall in his third atbat. Frazier just belted a 3-run homer! Huge night for Reds prospects.

Alonso is 2-for-3 with a 2-run homer (#2) and Frazier is 1-for-2 with a 3-run homer (#2) and a walk.

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 02:33 AM
Yonder walks in his next plate appearance.

AccordinglyReds
10-12-2008, 03:05 AM
Nice game tonight for the Reds. :)

Thanks for the updates.

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 03:47 AM
10/11 final boxscore:

Alonso: 2-for-5 homerun (#2), walk, 2 RBI

Frazier: 2-for-4 homerun (#2), walk, 4 RBI

Frazier played left field tonight btw.

icehole3
10-12-2008, 10:21 AM
both of those guys are untouchables IMO

HokieRed
10-12-2008, 10:23 AM
Exactly what I've been hoping for: that Alonso and Frazier establish such a compelling case for themselves that we'll be prevented from making bad deals and other players with value will suddenly seem like good trading chips for what we need more urgently. But, for the sake of the organization's priorities and judgments, we've got to find out if Frazier can really play third base better than EE.

RedLakerFan24
10-12-2008, 02:26 PM
i think with alonso and frazier doing so well, EE is going to be mention alot in trade talks

Bip Roberts
10-12-2008, 03:06 PM
Who have Alonso and Fraizer faced this year in the Hawaiian league.

SMcGavin
10-12-2008, 05:22 PM
Exactly what I've been hoping for: that Alonso and Frazier establish such a compelling case for themselves that we'll be prevented from making bad deals and other players with value will suddenly seem like good trading chips for what we need more urgently. But, for the sake of the organization's priorities and judgments, we've got to find out if Frazier can really play third base better than EE.

If Frazier can play a capable 3B, that solves a lot of problems for the Reds. He has been playing so much 1B and LF though that I get the feeling he can't. Hope I am wrong.

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 07:09 PM
10/12 game through one inning:

Alonso: 0-for-0 walk

Frazier: 1-for-1 RBI double

mth123
10-12-2008, 07:56 PM
Alonso Ks and Frazier grounds out.

OnBaseMachine
10-12-2008, 08:03 PM
Yonder struckout but worked the count to 3-2. I love his approach.

GOYA
10-12-2008, 09:39 PM
Tied? Was Selig there?

mth123
10-12-2008, 10:58 PM
Tied? Was Selig there?

Ends in a 1-1 Tie.

Alonso 0 for 3 with a BB, an SB and a Run.

Frazier 2 for 4 with 2 doubles and an RBI.

Screwball
10-13-2008, 02:44 AM
Frazier 2 for 4 with 2 doubles and an RBI.

Dude's a freakin' machine. I keep waitin' for him to slow down a little bit and all he does is detroy pitching Pujols-style.

I'm just glad he's on our side. That Yonder fellow, too. :)

mth123
10-15-2008, 04:33 AM
10-14:

Bad day - Frazier at first base 0 for 3 with a walk. Alonso at DH 0 for 3 with a walk. Valiquette 1 IP, 5 H, 2 ER, 2 K.

Valiquette has been pretty bad so far.

klw
10-15-2008, 11:57 AM
mth123;1751813]10-14:

Bad day - Frazier at first base 0 for 3 with a walk. Alonso at DH 0 for 3 with a walk.

Busts

OnBaseMachine
10-16-2008, 02:52 AM
The 10/15 game was postponed due to a power problem.

Topcat
10-16-2008, 05:37 AM
LOL Redzzzzzzzzzzzz Nice neg post and yes I know it was meant in fun.

OnBaseMachine
10-17-2008, 02:31 AM
10/16 game:

Frazier: 0-for-2
Alonso: 1-for-2 double

dougdirt
10-17-2008, 02:47 AM
In case anyone was wondering, they are not using softballs out there in Hawaii. Our guys are just hitting very well.

OnBaseMachine
10-17-2008, 02:59 AM
Frazier grounds out in his third atbat.

Alonso gets ahead 3-0, and then doubles on a 3-2 pitch. According to Gameday he doubled to/off the wall in center field. CF, btw, is 419 feet away in this park. That ball would have been gone in just about every ballpark in America except for a few.

Yonder is 2-for-3 with two doubles.

mth123
10-17-2008, 04:37 AM
10-16 Final Lines:

Frazier 0 for 3 with a BB
Alonso 2 for 4 with 2 doubles.

Screwball
10-17-2008, 05:36 AM
I think I jinxed the sh-- out of Frazier.

dougdirt
10-17-2008, 10:37 AM
I think I jinxed the sh-- out of Frazier.

I think I actually may have. I asked Todd yesterday afternoon if they were playing with softballs because of the way he and Yonder were hitting.

OnBaseMachine
10-17-2008, 07:33 PM
Stats update as of 10/17:

Todd Frazier: .309/.355/.564 - .918 in 55 atbats.

Yonder Alonso: .310/.444/.621 - 1.065 OPS in 29 atbats.

Screwball
10-18-2008, 05:59 AM
I think I actually may have. I asked Todd yesterday afternoon if they were playing with softballs because of the way he and Yonder were hitting.

Awesome. I blame Doug and nobody else for Frazier's recent miscues. It certainly isn't due to random baseball variation or Screwball... just Doug.

Enough with the softballs already DD. ;)

mth123
10-18-2008, 06:28 AM
10/17:

Alonso 0 for 4.
Frazier 1 for 4.

Frazier in LF for this game.

Mario-Rijo
10-18-2008, 06:03 PM
10/17:

Alonso 0 for 4.
Frazier 1 for 4.

Frazier in LF for this game.

Could be where he opens the season, LF for the Reds. If we don't find a good a good RH bat in the offseason I could see him with a shot of being the starter there be the end of the season at least.

mth123
10-19-2008, 04:02 AM
10/18

Both guys cooling off now.

Alonso 1 for 4 with an error.
Frazier 0 for 3 with a BB.
Valiquette 1 IP, 1H, 1ER, 1K.

Frazier played SS.

kpresidente
10-19-2008, 10:01 AM
Why is everybody so sure Frazier can't play SS? His career numbers are pretty good for a young player - 4.48 RFg and .958 FP. Last season's 4.87 and .969 are lights out.

I realize those stats can be misleading, but still, how can everybody be so certain in the face of them...

Lockdwn11
10-19-2008, 10:35 AM
Why is everybody so sure Frazier can't play SS? His career numbers are pretty good for a young player - 4.48 RFg and .958 FP. Last season's 4.87 and .969 are lights out.

I realize those stats can be misleading, but still, how can everybody be so certain in the face of them...

I guess the reason I thought he couldn't or can't is because the Reds have moved him off SS. That tells me they don't think he can so he will not be given the chance.

kpresidente
10-19-2008, 11:29 AM
Did they move him off SS or are they just looking at him at other positions? What I mean is if they had some doubts, they might want to see him elsewhere, but that doesn't necessarily exclude him from SS altogether. Obviously, he's playing a good amount of SS in Hawaii.

dougdirt
10-19-2008, 12:05 PM
Did they move him off SS or are they just looking at him at other positions? What I mean is if they had some doubts, they might want to see him elsewhere, but that doesn't necessarily exclude him from SS altogether. Obviously, he's playing a good amount of SS in Hawaii.

Basically, no one who has watched him play there thinks he can cut it at SS in the majors. He just doesn't have the range.

kpresidente
10-19-2008, 12:52 PM
Basically, no one who has watched him play there thinks he can cut it at SS in the majors. He just doesn't have the range.

Well, I'd keep him there until the stats start to bear that out, at least. Anybody got a ZR and OOZ for minor league players?

dougdirt
10-19-2008, 01:07 PM
Well, I'd keep him there until the stats start to bear that out, at least. Anybody got a ZR and OOZ for minor league players?

ZR and such doesn't exist in the minor leagues.

PuffyPig
10-19-2008, 06:18 PM
Well, I'd keep him there until the stats start to bear that out, at least. Anybody got a ZR and OOZ for minor league players?

If I were the Reds management, I'd leave him there until I felt he couldn't play a major league SS regardless of what the stats say (because fielding stats aren't particularly accurate).

Which is what they have done.

kpresidente
10-19-2008, 08:09 PM
If I were the Reds management, I'd leave him there until I felt he couldn't play a major league SS regardless of what the stats say (because fielding stats aren't particularly accurate).

That's not true. Fielding stats like RFg are very revealing. It's not as good as the offensive stats, but if peruse the leaderboards, you'll find the best defensive players are at the top and the worst are at the bottom.

For instance, a couple players that get talked about a lot in ORG, Beltre and Encarnacion rank 3rd and 19th respectively among qualified third basemen in RFg. That's no accident. At SS, Orlando Cabrera ranked 3rd and Theroit last. Again, no accident. And so on and so forth.

If Frazier can post the numbers over a large enough sample size, I don't care what "everybody" says. To this point, the numbers say he's at least adequate.

RedsManRick
10-19-2008, 08:59 PM
That's not true. Fielding stats like RFg are very revealing. It's not as good as the offensive stats, but if peruse the leaderboards, you'll find the best defensive players are at the top and the worst are at the bottom.

For instance, a couple players that get talked about a lot in ORG, Beltre and Encarnacion rank 3rd and 19th respectively among qualified third basemen in RFg. That's no accident. At SS, Orlando Cabrera ranked 3rd and Theroit last. Again, no accident. And so on and so forth.

If Frazier can post the numbers over a large enough sample size, I don't care what "everybody" says. To this point, the numbers say he's at least adequate.

There's a big jump from positive correlation to using a stat as a key indicator. Generally, especially over time, the better players will do the best on those stats. However, due to a number of factors including their dependency on opportunity based on batted batted ball frequency, they just aren't very reliable.

I haven't seen Frazier play and I'll agree that the Range Factors he's put up so far are promising. But we're a long way from having that large enough sample size.

dougdirt
10-20-2008, 12:43 AM
There's a big jump from positive correlation to using a stat as a key indicator. Generally, especially over time, the better players will do the best on those stats. However, due to a number of factors including their dependency on opportunity based on batted batted ball frequency, they just aren't very reliable.

I haven't seen Frazier play and I'll agree that the Range Factors he's put up so far are promising. But we're a long way from having that large enough sample size.

Rick hit it on the head really. If you are on a team with guys getting a lot of ground balls, you are going to pile up outs even if you don't have good range. The guy with the best range in baseball isn't going to record many outs at SS if his team has a majority fly ball staff.

I have seen Todd play SS and I just don't think he can cut it there in the big leagues. He is more of a corner type of guy. Todd himself isn't sure where he is going to play in the future, which tells you what you need to know about him as a shortstop.

OnBaseMachine
10-20-2008, 11:41 AM
10/19 game:

Alonso: 0-for-3 walk
Frazier: 1-for-2 double, walk, HBP

Alonso has been slumping the last few games.

kpresidente
10-20-2008, 06:05 PM
Don't get me wrong guys, I'm not just dreaming here. There's a huge benefit if Frazier can be a legit SS. I mean really, really huge. Obviously this is the weakest position in the organization. That being said, you want to give him every opportunity before you close the door on that option. That doesn't mean I think it's the likely outcome, just that that's the approach I'd take. Scouts are wrong from time to time and, given the benefits, I wouldn't want to give them the opportunity to be wrong in this case.

If he doesn't have the range, over time the stats will bear that out. So let the stats be what tells you when to move him. Even if they just confirm what everybody was saying, what have you lost? If he's got the glove, a transition to 3B wouldn't be too painful, even if it had to be rushed. Even easier to LF. Cost/benefit, that's what I'm looking at.

GOYA
10-20-2008, 07:44 PM
Just a thought here but from what I've heard about Yorman's athletic ability, I wonder why he isn't tried at SS. At least for a look to see if he can move in from the OF. He's young enough to learn a new position.

HokieRed
10-20-2008, 08:34 PM
Todd Frazier is 6 foot 3, 215 pounds at age 22. Unlikely he profiles as a major league shortstop. I think the real question for the org. is whether he can play a better 3b than EE.

gedred69
10-20-2008, 08:50 PM
Todd Frazier is 6 foot 3, 215 pounds at age 22. Unlikely he profiles as a major league shortstop. I think the real question for the org. is whether he can play a better 3b than EE.

Bingo. It has already been established by Doug, et. al. Frazier is [B]not an MLB SS. BTW, look how his #'s faded last season. Why are we talking about him instead of the guy who's at least a year ahead of him? Some silly fan-love?

PuffyPig
10-20-2008, 09:25 PM
If he doesn't have the range, over time the stats will bear that out. So let the stats be what tells you when to move him. Even if they just confirm what everybody was saying, what have you lost?


You've lost the time to teach him to play anther position. If you leave him at SS, you'll have to leave him in the minors to learn another position when he might be able to play third or LF for the Reds in 2010.

You don't need stats to tell you what your eyes can see.

SMcGavin
10-20-2008, 09:32 PM
You've lost the time to teach him to play anther position. If you leave him at SS, you'll have to leave him in the minors to learn another position when he might be able to play third or LF for the Reds in 2010.

You don't need stats to tell you what your eyes can see.

Yeah. Get him to third ASAP and find out if he can play there. Besides giving him time to work on his defense at the position, the answer to "can Frazier play 3B" is pretty relevant to what Walt does with the major league roster and Encarnacion. I'd like to find out sooner rather than later if at all possible.

GOYA
10-20-2008, 10:13 PM
Todd Frazier is 6 foot 3, 215 pounds at age 22. Unlikely he profiles as a major league shortstop. I think the real question for the org. is whether he can play a better 3b than EE.

What about Eymann and Francisco? Trade bait?

Mario-Rijo
10-21-2008, 02:52 AM
Yeah. Get him to third ASAP and find out if he can play there. Besides giving him time to work on his defense at the position, the answer to "can Frazier play 3B" is pretty relevant to what Walt does with the major league roster and Encarnacion. I'd like to find out sooner rather than later if at all possible.

I agree move him already.

Mario-Rijo
10-21-2008, 02:58 AM
Bingo. It has already been established by Doug, et. al. Frazier is not an MLB SS. BTW, look how his #'s faded last season. [B]Why are we talking about him instead of the guy who's at least a year ahead of him? Some silly fan-love?

Who's that?

gedred69
10-21-2008, 08:35 PM
Who's that?

That should be obvious. Valaika. How much have you personally seen either play?

OnBaseMachine
10-21-2008, 09:28 PM
10/21 game:

Alonso: 0-for-0 walk
Frazier: 1-for-1

OnBaseMachine
10-22-2008, 12:02 AM
10/21 game final boxscore:

Alonso: 0-for-3 two walks
Frazier: 1-for-4

Alonso has struggled lately (1 for last 15) but at least he's still drawing walks and getting on base.

Mario-Rijo
10-22-2008, 02:34 AM
That should be obvious. Valaika. How much have you personally seen either play?

Honestly only a half dozen or so times each. And I like Valaika more than most perhaps. And I can actually understand your point however you simply cannot ignore Frazier's power potential which is a big deal. And the fact that Valaika was ahead of Frazier level wise really means nothing to me. Valaika was drafted a year ahead of him and Todd could very well catch up to him before the end of '09. In fact I would be a bit surprised if they weren't both in Louisville by mid-season.

If Todd plays 3rd (a tougher position to fill) and hits for more power with Valaika moderately outpacing him in BA, but Todd walks much more it should be clearly evident who's the better prospect. Now if Todd goes to LF it makes it closer but still Todd's power and discipline make him the better player overall.

kpresidente
10-22-2008, 10:43 AM
You've lost the time to teach him to play anther position.

You're talking about 3B from SS. This doesn't take a lot of time. My guess is 1/2 a season to become functional, especially for a player like Frazier. My problem with Frazier at third is that it might be a downgrade from EE. After all, at Frazier's age, EE was putting up a .936 OPS in AAA, 130 points higher than Frazier managed in A+. That doesn't mean he shouldn't eventually replace EE, just that there really is no rush.


You don't need stats to tell you what your eyes can see.
:rolleyes: Stats are facts, eyes are opinions.

dougdirt
10-22-2008, 11:00 AM
:rolleyes: Stats are facts, eyes are opinions.

Stats are facts, but they all tell you different things. A fact doesn't always tell you the truth. Not that eyes do either.

kpresidente
10-22-2008, 11:10 AM
Stats are facts, but they all tell you different things. A fact doesn't always tell you the truth. Not that eyes do either.

I know. But I'm also coming at this from an organizational need standpoint. I don't question the idea that Frazier's a better fit at 3B than SS. I just don't see 3B as any kind of pressing need. The big-league club has EE at the moment, and Soto down the road. So where does that leave Frazer? If you talk about LF, I see Dorn or Votto/Alonso as better solutions. Again, where does that leave Frazier? SS is the only place left. It may not be a perfect fit, but it's the only spot open. So I go to my scouts and they say they don't think he has the range. Well, that would be enough to nix the idea, except that I see pretty good defensive numbers. So I'm going to leave him there until the stats say he can't cut it.

But, whatever, it's just my opinion. I don't see how it hurts us to take the risk. I don't guess I expect a whole lot of people to look at it that way. So be it.

OnBaseMachine
10-22-2008, 10:41 PM
10/22 game:

so far:

Alonso: 1-for-3 home run (#3)
Frazier: 1-for-3 double

OnBaseMachine
10-22-2008, 11:53 PM
10/22 final:

Alonso: 1-for-4 home run (#3)
Frazier: 1-for-4 double

redssouth
10-23-2008, 01:25 PM
Stats are facts, but they all tell you different things. A fact doesn't always tell you the truth. Not that eyes do either.

Not to nitpick, because I understand what you are trying to say, but a fact does always tell you the truth, that is the very definition of a fact. Is a fact a predictor of future events, no, just as stats aren't. What is does do is tell us what has happened up to this period of time. Some facts (stats) mean more to some than others, and people put more weight into what the choose to believe, but it doesn't change the fact. :)

dougdirt
10-23-2008, 01:35 PM
Not to nitpick, because I understand what you are trying to say, but a fact does always tell you the truth, that is the very definition of a fact. Is a fact a predictor of future events, no, just as stats aren't. What is does do is tell us what has happened up to this period of time. Some facts (stats) mean more to some than others, and people put more weight into what the choose to believe, but it doesn't change the fact. :)

A fact tells the truth, but not always to the question asked.

bucksfan2
10-23-2008, 01:44 PM
Not to nitpick, because I understand what you are trying to say, but a fact does always tell you the truth, that is the very definition of a fact. Is a fact a predictor of future events, no, just as stats aren't. What is does do is tell us what has happened up to this period of time. Some facts (stats) mean more to some than others, and people put more weight into what the choose to believe, but it doesn't change the fact. :)

Adam Dunn's BA was .236 last season. That is a fact, it tells you a truth. But what really does it tell you? The problem is you can pick and choose different facts in order to spin a fact in your light.

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 01:53 AM
10/24 game:

Alonso: 1-for-1
Frazier: 1-for-1

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 02:11 AM
Alonso hits a RBI double in his second atbat and Frazier flies out.

Alonso: 2-for-2 double
Frazier: 1-for-2

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 03:04 AM
10/24:

Alonso: 3-for-3 two doubles, 2 RBI
Frazier: 2-for-3 double

mth123
10-25-2008, 06:40 AM
10/24 Final line:

Alonso 3 for 4 with 2 doubles, 1 BB.
Frazier 3 for 5 with a double and a triple.
Valiquette 1IP, 2H, 1ER.

Frazier played LF.

Seasonal Lines:

Alonso 51 AB, 11 BB, .275/.403/.549/.952 with 3 HR.
Frazier 77 AB. 6 BB, .312/.368/.558/.926 with 2 HR and 11 Doubles.
Valiquette 7.333 IP, 11.05 ERA, 13 H, 6 BB, 6 K, 1 HR.

Valiquette has appeared in 6 games and given up at least 1 ER in each of them. To make matters worse he's given up 5 unearned runs.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 12:55 AM
The 10/25 game was postponed.

Bip Roberts
10-26-2008, 01:05 AM
Frazier and Alonso should get rushed if they continue to his like this in the minors next year.

Mario-Rijo
10-26-2008, 02:58 AM
Wow Watson and Valiquette have looked pretty bad so far. Watson still needs to work on his other pitches apparently. His KC is filthy (I mean it was almost MLB ready then) but when I saw him in Dayton guys would occassionally lay off that pitch and when they did he didn't know what to do with them. It seems he has a little Homeritis. He has relied on that pitch for so long that he hasn't put together the rest of that repertoire. I would send him back to high A next season and back as a member of the rotation until he gets it right.

icehole3
10-26-2008, 05:38 AM
I would love to see him become Mario Soto's project and have him master a change up.

Mario-Rijo
10-26-2008, 04:06 PM
I would love to see him become Mario Soto's project and have him master a change up.

Who Watson? If so then I agree his FB is also a fair pitch so if he could get a good change to go with that nasty Knuckle Curve he would improve a great deal.

icehole3
10-26-2008, 04:35 PM
yeah Watson, it looks like, Doug can correct me if Im way off base with this, but it seems like if you can get it around 90mph and Soto can teach you his change up you can become a decent pitcher.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 08:20 PM
10/26 game was also postponed due to rain.

Mario-Rijo
10-26-2008, 09:07 PM
yeah Watson, it looks like, Doug can correct me if Im way off base with this, but it seems like if you can get it around 90mph and Soto can teach you his change up you can become a decent pitcher.

When he was at Dayton he also had a slider and circle change but didn't seem to use them much. I wonder if he still throws those pitches and what is going on with them.

Also Doug or anyone else who may know, what is Watson working at lately velocity wise with his FB and any other pitches that you know of?

RedLakerFan24
10-28-2008, 02:42 PM
For those not able to watch alonso bat here are some of his atbats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFjl5CqCA48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBVKnnmAArg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRsspeH6NyE

on the second video he hits a homer

icehole3
10-28-2008, 04:47 PM
great video, love the sound of ball coming off his bat

Superdude
10-28-2008, 05:40 PM
Alonso's definitely not as thick as I thought he was.

Bip Roberts
10-28-2008, 08:02 PM
Alonso's definitely not as thick as I thought he was.

Agreed

corkedbat
10-28-2008, 11:20 PM
I was just getting ready to say the same thing

OnBaseMachine
10-29-2008, 02:52 AM
10/28 game through six innings:

Alonso: 0-for-2 walk
Frazier: 1-for-3 home run (#3)

lollipopcurve
10-29-2008, 07:17 AM
My glancing impression is that Alonso has a lot of movement in his trigger and the swing is longish -- not ideal.

OnBaseMachine
10-29-2008, 11:35 AM
10/28:

Alonso: 0-for-4 two walks
Frazier: 1-for-3 home run (#1), 2 RBI, walk

BRM
10-29-2008, 11:40 AM
What's their updated lines now?

OnBaseMachine
10-29-2008, 11:43 AM
What's their updated lines now?

Alonso: .255/.397/.509 - .906 OPS

Frazier: .313/.370/.588 - .957 OPS

BRM
10-29-2008, 11:44 AM
Thanks OBM.

Screwball
10-29-2008, 02:19 PM
My glancing impression is that Alonso has a lot of movement in his trigger and the swing is longish -- not ideal.

From Baseball America's Best Draft Tools (hat-tip to OBM): "Yonder Alonso has the best combination of short swing, plate discipline, and strength in the 2008 draft."

I'd say that's quite ideal.

redhawk61
10-29-2008, 09:16 PM
My glancing impression is that Alonso has a lot of movement in his trigger and the swing is longish -- not ideal.

From what I see he has a very short stroke to the ball, keeps his hands inside very well, which is why he hits so many balls to the opposite field.

Bip Roberts
10-29-2008, 09:25 PM
Alonsos swing looks long because he follows through so much probably

redhawk61
10-29-2008, 09:55 PM
Alonsos swing looks long because he follows through so much probably

exactly, but a long follow through is what you are supposed to do,"Short to the ball, Finish high"

Actually his HR swing looks like a mirror image of Votto with were the bat ends up on his shoulder and how he flips it as well.

Nasty_Boy
10-29-2008, 11:04 PM
I thought his swing, stance, and approach looked like a more upright version of Brian Giles. Giles gets in more of a crouch and his front side is more open, but to me it look like his swing.

mth123
10-30-2008, 02:44 AM
10/29:

Through 5 and a half Innings,

Alonso 1 for 4.
Frazier 0 for 3 with an HBP.

Frazier in LF.

OnBaseMachine
10-30-2008, 03:50 AM
10/29 final:

Alonso: 2-for-5 double
Frazier: 1-for-4 triple, HBP

Alonso was up in the 9th with the bases loaded, two outs, and he was ahead in the count 3-1, and the runner on third got thrown out at home trying to score on a wild pitch in a 9-0 game. Jeez. He cost Yonder a chance at a bases loaded walk or seeing a 3-1 fat pitch.

redsfandan
10-30-2008, 05:31 AM
those lines for frazier and alonso look pretty nice. what about defense? which positions have they played the most? has alonso played much at 3rd?

lollipopcurve
10-30-2008, 07:14 AM
From Baseball America's Best Draft Tools (hat-tip to OBM): "Yonder Alonso has the best combination of short swing, plate discipline, and strength in the 2008 draft."

I'd say that's quite ideal.

Yeah, I saw that. There is no question he's long on his follow through, and I wonder how well he will adapt to being busted inside. He's also got some unnecessary movement in getting his hands into position and in his front foot. Again, it could make him vulnerable to hard stuff in. Just telling you what I see -- and there's no way it's a short swing like you see in power guys like Votto, Utley, Bonds. Need to see more -- this is just my first impression.

Nasty_Boy
10-30-2008, 10:13 AM
those lines for frazier and alonso look pretty nice. what about defense? which positions have they played the most? has alonso played much at 3rd?


Alonso is a 1st baseman, and that is it... He may play a game or two at 3rd, but he's a very smooth firstbaseman. What he lacks in range, he makes up for with a good feel around the bag.

OnBaseMachine
10-31-2008, 01:05 AM
10/30:

Alonso: 1-for-1 double

Frazier isn't playing.

mth123
10-31-2008, 03:02 AM
Alonso 3 for 4 with a 2B.

OnBaseMachine
11-01-2008, 12:45 AM
Frazier is out of the lineup again tonight. He did get HBP a couple nights ago so he may still be sore.

OnBaseMachine
11-01-2008, 03:50 AM
10/31 final:

Alonso: 1-for-3

OnBaseMachine
11-02-2008, 12:37 AM
11/1:

Frazier is out of the lineup again tonight. Alonso is batting third.

mth123
11-02-2008, 05:13 AM
11/1:

Frazier is out of the lineup again tonight. Alonso is batting third.

Alonso 1 for 4 with a BB.

Valiquette continues to struggle. 1.666 IP, 3H, 1BB, 0K, 1ER.

OnBaseMachine
11-02-2008, 06:36 PM
11/2:

Still no Frazier.

Alonso: 1-for-2

redhawk61
11-02-2008, 06:45 PM
Fraizer has been held back by the Rockies to avoid injury at the time as he is the main piece of the Holliday to the Reds deal:thumbup:

Mario-Rijo
11-02-2008, 07:00 PM
Fraizer has been held back by the Rockies to avoid injury at the time as he is the main piece of the Holliday to the Reds deal:thumbup:

Is that a guess or inside info?

GOYA
11-02-2008, 07:05 PM
It's got to be a fantasy. He might be part of a deal but certainly not the "main piece" for someone like Holliday.

OnBaseMachine
11-02-2008, 08:31 PM
11/2:

Alonso went 3-for-5 and is now hitting .312/.417/.520 - .937 OPS in 77 atbats.

Scrap Irony
11-02-2008, 08:38 PM
Nice eye. Any chance he leapfrogs Gutierez and starts the year in Louisville?

OnBaseMachine
11-02-2008, 08:39 PM
Nice eye. Any chance he leapfrogs Gutierez and starts the year in Louisville?

Doubt it. I think he starts in Double-A Carolina.

redhawk61
11-03-2008, 08:01 PM
Is that a guess or inside info?

wishful thinking

redhawk61
11-03-2008, 08:04 PM
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/2008/11/02/g6lycwLq.jpg
Alonso photo from mlb.com
looks good in red

question, I know it is a small sample, but should we be worried about Alonso's numbers against lefties?

Nasty_Boy
11-04-2008, 09:29 AM
I know it's been talked about before but Alonso really looks to be in great shape. At Miami he seemed to be a little stocky, but I guess that time in the gym with ARod (maybe Madonna?) has him slimming down while bulking up.

JayBruceFan
11-04-2008, 06:08 PM
From Fays Blog:

The one bit of news I have to report: Todd Frazier suffered a concussion playing in the Hawaiian League. He's going to miss 10 days or so. He knocked cold in collision. He was playing left. The shortstop was Japanese. Thus the communication breakdown, which reminds me of a standard John Erardi line when a popup fell between two of us during Sunday morning softball: "Which one of you doesn't speak Englishhhhhhhhhh?" In this case, the shortstop. Frazier has played left, first and third. He's hitting .310 with three homers and 21 RBI.

Redman15
11-04-2008, 06:50 PM
Sounds like when Turner and Henry collided knocking Turner out. If Frazier has
another concussion in the next 6 months he will have to sit out something like 60 days.

OnBaseMachine
11-05-2008, 12:24 AM
11/4:

Alonso walks in his first plate appearance.

dougdirt
11-05-2008, 12:35 AM
11/4:

Alonso walks in his first plate appearance.

Against a lefty :thumbup:

dougdirt
11-05-2008, 01:32 AM
Alonso just walked again.

OnBaseMachine
11-05-2008, 01:33 AM
Alonso just walked again.

Lazy-arse. Too lazy to even take the bat off his shoulder. :cool:

dougdirt
11-05-2008, 01:34 AM
Lazy-arse. Too lazy to even take the bat off his shoulder. :cool:

Pft, he had a foul ball and a swinging strike in that at bat. :D

Screwball
11-05-2008, 01:43 AM
Alonso advanced to 3rd with no outs after a passed ball and an error, but his teammates failed to bring him home.

Waikiki still leads, though, 7-0 after 4. Alonso's OPS is up to .938 through 78 ABs.

Screwball
11-05-2008, 02:20 AM
Yonder reaches on a fielding error by the 2nd baseman on a force attempt in the 5th.

He's 0-2 with 2 walks so far. Beach Boys lead 8-5.

Screwball
11-05-2008, 03:11 AM
An interesting side note - Jun Ho Ha, a relief pitcher for the North Shore Honu, is a switch pitcher. That'd be interesting to see what happens if/when he faces a switch hitter. Something's gotta give.

Alonso steps to the plate in the bottom of the 8th and will face a LHP for the 5th time today. Yonder flies out down the left field line. He went 0-3 with 2 BBs on the day, as that's likely his last AB.

Beach Boys won 8-6.

camisadelgolf
11-05-2008, 08:53 AM
An interesting side note - Jun Ho Ha, a relief pitcher for the North Shore Honu, is a switch pitcher. That'd be interesting to see what happens if/when he faces a switch hitter. Something's gotta give.

Alonso steps to the plate in the bottom of the 8th and will face a LHP for the 5th time today. Yonder flies out down the left field line. He went 0-3 with 2 BBs on the day, as that's likely his last AB.

Beach Boys won 8-6.

I think the pitcher has the advantage in that situation. He can switch his glove just before he starts his delivery. My guess is that the batter would just hit from whichever side he feels more comfortable with.

Az. Reds Fan
11-05-2008, 10:19 AM
An interesting side note - Jun Ho Ha, a relief pitcher for the North Shore Honu, is a switch pitcher. That'd be interesting to see what happens if/when he faces a switch hitter. Something's gotta give.

Alonso steps to the plate in the bottom of the 8th and will face a LHP for the 5th time today. Yonder flies out down the left field line. He went 0-3 with 2 BBs on the day, as that's likely his last AB.

Beach Boys won 8-6.

According to the MiLB boxscore, Alonso was 1-3, w/2 BB

http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l405&t=g_box&gid=2008_11_04_nshwin_waiwin_1

OnBaseMachine
11-05-2008, 11:01 AM
According to the MiLB boxscore, Alonso was 1-3, w/2 BB

http://mlb.mlb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=l405&t=g_box&gid=2008_11_04_nshwin_waiwin_1

They must have changed that error to a hit.

dougdirt
11-05-2008, 11:40 AM
I think the pitcher has the advantage in that situation. He can switch his glove just before he starts his delivery. My guess is that the batter would just hit from whichever side he feels more comfortable with.

The pitcher must declare which arm he is going to throw with before he begins pitching and must throw from that side the entire at bat. Pat Vendette is currently a switch pitcher in the minor leagues and had to deal with that this year. Milb changed their rules because he and a switch hitter had a little go around with this hand that hand.

OnBaseMachine
11-05-2008, 11:42 AM
The pitcher must declare which arm he is going to throw with before he begins pitching and must throw from that side the entire at bat. Pat Vendette is currently a switch pitcher in the minor leagues and had to deal with that this year. Milb changed their rules because he and a switch hitter had a little go around with this hand that hand.

That was hilarious. There was a video of that floating around for a while.

klw
11-05-2008, 12:31 PM
That was hilarious. There was a video of that floating around for a while.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKGc8baMkO4&feature=related

camisadelgolf
11-05-2008, 12:41 PM
The pitcher must declare which arm he is going to throw with before he begins pitching and must throw from that side the entire at bat. Pat Vendette is currently a switch pitcher in the minor leagues and had to deal with that this year. Milb changed their rules because he and a switch hitter had a little go around with this hand that hand.

Good to know. Does anyone happen to know if a hitter is forced to do anything similar?

Mario-Rijo
11-05-2008, 02:27 PM
Good to know. Does anyone happen to know if a hitter is forced to do anything similar?

No it's like Doug laid it out there. The Pitcher must declare and then the hitter chooses which side he will hit from based on that information. And they must remain that way for the duration of the AB. Just means the pitcher better know his opponents strengths and weaknesses, just like always.

dougdirt
11-06-2008, 12:16 AM
Yonder Alonso draws yet another walk. 17 in the HWL so far (to 18 strikeouts).

OnBaseMachine
11-06-2008, 12:55 AM
Alonso just walked again. Make that 18 BB/18 K in 80 atbats.

dougdirt
11-06-2008, 12:55 AM
Yonder Alonso is a walking machine.

dougdirt
11-06-2008, 01:08 AM
To go a little further on Yonder Alonso.... he has made 122 Plate Appearances in the minor leagues. He had 24 PA in the FSL and now has 98 in the HWL. He has a combined 23 walks and 23 strikeouts over that time. Cuban God of Walks? :)

OnBaseMachine
11-06-2008, 01:34 AM
To go a little further on Yonder Alonso.... he has made 122 Plate Appearances in the minor leagues. He had 24 PA in the FSL and now has 98 in the HWL. He has a combined 23 walks and 23 strikeouts over that time. Cuban God of Walks? :)

Cuban God of Walks. I like it.

OnBaseMachine
11-06-2008, 01:54 AM
Yonder flied out to CF on a 1-0 pitch in his next atbat.

OnBaseMachine
11-06-2008, 02:41 AM
Another great atbat by Yonder. He fell behind 0-2 against a lefty, worked the count back to 3-2 and finally grounded out on the 9th pitch of the atbat. That's probably his last atbat tonight, so he finishes 0-for-2 with two walks in the 11/5 game.

Kingspoint
11-06-2008, 03:14 AM
Since there's a lot of talk on this thread about Alonzo, can Cincy fans knock off the idea about obtaining a Left Fielder from outside the organization, please?

Alonzo will be starting at 1B for the club in September of 2009 and Votto has got to play somewhere, and that somewhere is Left Field. We've got half a dozen players that can man Left Field for 5 months, and do it well.

Some have even suggested the preposterous idea of trading away very good players to obtain Holliday without thinking about where Votto's going to play come September of 2009.

mth123
11-06-2008, 03:27 AM
Since there's a lot of talk on this thread about Alonzo, can Cincy fans knock off the idea about obtaining a Left Fielder from outside the organization, please?

Alonzo will be starting at 1B for the club in September of 2009 and Votto has got to play somewhere, and that somewhere is Left Field. We've got half a dozen players that can man Left Field for 5 months, and do it well.

Some have even suggested the preposterous idea of trading away very good players to obtain Holliday without thinking about where Votto's going to play come September of 2009.

Agree.

I do think the Reds need a stopgap for 2009. If it were me, I'd get a 1B and let Votto get his transition out of the way in 2009. Why put a negative on 2010 by having Votto out there with no experience? Get him out there in 2009 and let him learn while the team is still a year away from contention.

Somebody who could bolster the bench after Alonzo's arrival would be my choice. I think Kevin Millar makes a lot of sense. Another option would be to acquire an honest to goodness player who can play 3B and let EdE be the stopgap, but moving EdE off of 3B probably hurts his market value. If the Reds get a new 3B, I'd just trade EdE. Frazier is probably the man there in 2010 anyway unless he proves in 2009 that he simply can't play there.

icehole3
11-06-2008, 04:45 AM
what about Ed E to 1st? Do you guys think pitchers are pitching around Alonso already? In college when he got a fat pitch to hit, he turned it into a rocket over the fence.

Screwball
11-06-2008, 07:11 AM
Another great atbat by Yonder. He fell behind 0-2 against a lefty, worked the count back to 3-2 and finally grounded out on the 9th pitch of the atbat. That's probably his last atbat tonight, so he finishes 0-for-2 with two walks in the 11/5 game.

What strikes me about following Yonder on Gameday is that he'll almost invarably swing (and usually hits a rocket) at pitches in the zone, unless they're on the corner. If it's out of the strike zone, even by a little bit, he doesn't chase.

Reminds me of Josh Hamilton.

BRM
11-06-2008, 09:39 AM
Yonder Alonso is a walking machine.

He'll get lambasted in Cincinnati. Especially when he walks with RISP.

mace
11-06-2008, 10:38 AM
He'll get lambasted in Cincinnati. Especially when he walks with RISP.

Actually, I don't think that's true. If a guy's hitting in an RBI spot in the lineup and most of what he does is walk and strike out, there's an issue with that. You don't want walks replacing base hits in that role. But if the walks complement base hits, that's a different thing entirely.

BRM
11-06-2008, 10:42 AM
Actually, I don't think that's true. If a guy's hitting in an RBI spot in the lineup and most of what he does is walk and strike out, there's an issue with that. You don't want walks replacing base hits in that role. But if the walks complement base hits, that's a different thing entirely.

You're right in that it will depend on where Dusty bats him in the order. If he's hitting 5th or 6th, the booth will moan and groan when he takes a walk. If he's hitting 3rd, not so much.

Bip Roberts
11-06-2008, 10:44 AM
Yonder seems to have some pretty good bat control.

nemesis
11-06-2008, 11:29 AM
I will say this. I really hope the splits he is showing in Hawaii isn't going to be a long term thing.

Against RHP:

In 47 AB he is hitting .404 with 10 BB vs only 6 K's with a line of .509 .660 1.168 OPS

Vs LHP:

He is hitting .176 in 34 with 7 BB and 12 K's with a very weak line of .317 .294 with an OPS of .611

dougdirt
11-06-2008, 12:28 PM
I will say this. I really hope the splits he is showing in Hawaii isn't going to be a long term thing.

Against RHP:

In 47 AB he is hitting .404 with 10 BB vs only 6 K's with a line of .509 .660 1.168 OPS

Vs LHP:

He is hitting .176 in 34 with 7 BB and 12 K's with a very weak line of .317 .294 with an OPS of .611

He is 21. Joey Votto was being absolutely dominated by lefties at this age too. Last year in the majors he had an .862 OPS against lefties. The promising this is that he has shown he knows the zone against lefties. Thats step 1. Step 2 is learning to use your swing against them. Step 1 is usually the most difficult.

kpresidente
11-06-2008, 04:30 PM
I wonder how long it's going to take Bruce.

dougdirt
11-06-2008, 04:51 PM
I wonder how long it's going to take Bruce.

Not too long I would bet. He hit them very well in the minors.

nemesis
11-06-2008, 05:11 PM
Well if Yonder continues to OPS around .950 against RH and can get around .800 vs LH he'd be all star level.

Screwball
11-08-2008, 02:07 AM
Yonder Alonso is 1-2 so far tonight with, you guessed it, a walk and an RBI. The BB came after falling behind in the count, 1-2. I really, really like his approach at the plate.

Beach Boys are winning 2-0 in the bottom of the 5th.

dougdirt
11-08-2008, 02:11 AM
Yonder Alonso is 1-2 so far tonight with, you guessed it, a walk and an RBI. The BB came after falling behind in the count, 1-2. I really, really like his approach at the plate.

Beach Boys are winning 2-0 in the bottom of the 5th.

Hitting .310/.437/.500 with 19 walks and 18 strikeouts so far in 103 PA... Is that good?

Screwball
11-08-2008, 03:06 AM
Hitting .310/.437/.500 with 19 walks and 18 strikeouts so far in 103 PA... Is that good?

Well, yeah, but does he run to his position?

Alonso struck out to lead off the bottom of the 8th. He went 1-3 with a BB today.

Beach Boys won 2-0.

icehole3
11-08-2008, 06:34 AM
Im just glad he doest strikeout twice as much as he walks

:)

mth123
11-09-2008, 03:35 AM
11/8

Alonso 1 for 4.

Screwball
11-09-2008, 05:57 AM
11/8

Alonso 1 for 4.

With 108 walks, right?

JKam
11-09-2008, 12:23 PM
Here's an article on Yonder Alonso. More about his life leading up to baseball than baseball itself, but still interesting.

http://www.starbulletin.com/sports/20081109_further_review.html

OnBaseMachine
11-11-2008, 11:13 PM
Frazier is back in the lineup tonight DHing and batting fifth. This is his first game back since suffering a concussion on October 29th.

dougdirt
11-11-2008, 11:14 PM
Frazier is back in the lineup tonight DHing and batting fifth. This is his first game back since suffering a concussion on October 29th.

Very nice to see. Sounds like I will be up late tonight following the game.

OnBaseMachine
11-12-2008, 12:24 AM
11/11 game:

Yonder lines a single to left in his first atbat.

dougdirt
11-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Yonder is 2-3 tonight.
Frazier is 0-1 with 2 walks.
Valiquette 2ip, 3h, 2bb, 1K,0r.

OnBaseMachine
11-12-2008, 02:22 AM
Yonder just doubled, he's 3-for-4 with a double tonight.

OnBaseMachine
11-12-2008, 02:29 AM
Alonso's double was to dead CF and just missed being a homer according to Gameday. Frazier singled him in.

11/11 game:

Alonso: 3-for-4 double (.943 OPS)
Frazier: 1-for-2 two walks (.979 OPS)

dougdirt
11-12-2008, 02:39 AM
Alonso's double was to dead CF and just missed being a homer according to Gameday. Frazier singled him in.

11/11 game:

Alonso: 3-for-4 double (.943 OPS)
Frazier: 1-for-2 two walks (.979 OPS)

Are those O-P-S numbers good? :D

OnBaseMachine
11-12-2008, 02:48 AM
Are those O-P-S numbers good? :D

The OPS numbers are good but I'm really worried about Alonso's BA with RISP on Astroturf during day games. :D

Edd Roush
11-12-2008, 09:33 AM
Wow, these OPS numbers have me really excited. Doug and OBM, when do you think is the earliest time these guys arrive? Is there any way they could both be in the Opening Day line-up 2010?

Kc61
11-12-2008, 10:35 AM
Wow, these OPS numbers have me really excited. Doug and OBM, when do you think is the earliest time these guys arrive? Is there any way they could both be in the Opening Day line-up 2010?


The thing to watch is that next year's AA Carolina lineup will likely have Alonso, Frazier, and Francisco hitting 3,4,5.

Since Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, this is the next wave of top level candidates for the Reds.

nemesis
11-12-2008, 10:52 AM
The thing to watch is that next year's AA Carolina lineup will likely have Alonso, Frazier, and Francisco hitting 3,4,5.

Since Bruce, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, this is the next wave of top level candidates for the Reds.

Over under on RBI's those 3 put up in the first half of the season before promotions... 170