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camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 12:38 PM
Here's the discussion for the Bengals vs. Jets game. It's not looking great for the Bengals. Carson Palmer won't be starting and Shayne Graham is inactive. I'm excited about seeing Ocho Cinco match up against Darrelle Revis, though. However, I'm not excited about seeing Favre tear up the Bengals' young secondary.

GoReds33
10-12-2008, 12:47 PM
I'm going on a limb and predicting a big game from the Bengals defense. We need something to give us hope for next year. I hope TJ is traded by Tuesday, hopefully for a first round pick.

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 01:11 PM
If T.J. is traded for a first round draft pick, I'll do back flips. He's an injury risk, on the last year of his contract, and on the downside of his peak. Also, with all the talent that's expected to hit the next draft, a draft pick might be worth more than ever.

GoReds33
10-12-2008, 01:37 PM
If T.J. is traded for a first round draft pick, I'll do back flips. He's an injury risk, on the last year of his contract, and on the downside of his peak. Also, with all the talent that's expected to hit the next draft, a draft pick might be worth more than ever.Washington supposedly offered a first and third for Chad IIRC. I don't think a first rounder would be out of the question.

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 02:01 PM
The first drive isn't even finished, and Leon Hall has walked off the field.

edit: But now he's back, a fumble is forced, and Ndukwe picks it up and takes it in for the touchdown.

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:01 PM
woo hoo !!!!!!!

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:02 PM
is this the first time the bengals have led this season? it feels like it

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 02:04 PM
Considering the teams the Bengals have played so far, this defense has actually been pretty damn good this season.

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:06 PM
lol is there anything more bungle-esque than that right there? score a defensive td and then surrender a return to their own 48 yard line

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 02:06 PM
double post

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 02:07 PM
Jets converts on fourth down. :(

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 02:15 PM
This is crazy.

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:16 PM
lol

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:23 PM
They really aren't a very smart football team

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:24 PM
Holding on Ghuicuic. He really does nothing well.

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 02:24 PM
Ghiaciuc is worthless.

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:25 PM
Ryan Fitzpatrick is kinda quick for a QB, which is good, since I have a feeling he'll be running for his life all day...

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:25 PM
Holding on Ghuicuic. He really does nothing well.

He holds well.

So he's got that goin' for him.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:25 PM
Another craptastic drive by the Bengals offensive offense

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:29 PM
Bengal staff member goes down...

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:31 PM
Bengal staff member goes down...

Quick, someone put Mike Brown on the sidelines, let's see a repeat!

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:36 PM
what the hell was he thinking catching that damn ball wow kill me please

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:37 PM
what the hell was he thinking catching that damn ball wow kill me please

fair catch on the 4, awesome

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:37 PM
Catches the kickoff on the 4......wow

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:37 PM
i dunno about the rest of you, but i'd rather see benson be the #1 back and get rid of perry

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:38 PM
Another spectacular drive...

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:38 PM
Catches the kickoff on the 4......wow

it was a punt which makes it even more insane

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:39 PM
does this get blocked?

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:39 PM
fair catch on the 4, awesome

i have honestly never seen that in the nfl before

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:39 PM
Brat needs to go. Palmer or no Palmer. He couldn't coordinate his way out of paper bag

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:41 PM
it was a punt which makes it even more insane

I knew that :D

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:44 PM
Brett Favre may be able to play forever

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:45 PM
So, if Fitzpatrick gets knocked out, is Carson's brother dressed today, or who is the emergency QB?

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:47 PM
Ryan Fitzpatrick needs to do something.....anything at this point

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:48 PM
nm, they just showed Carson's brother, and he's dressed....

so we need to see 2 injured QBs today before an emergency QB....

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:49 PM
nice hospital ball to housh fitzpatrick :rolleyes:

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:49 PM
oh god

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:49 PM
fitz needs to go back to harvard

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:50 PM
TJ limping. Put in little Palmer. Fitz has been pretty useless

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 02:51 PM
hey fitz, throw the ball downfield next time....

if they pick it off, it's basically the same as a punt....

much better than a fumble...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:52 PM
When in doubt, run a trick play....the Bengals always fall for them

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:52 PM
lol. TD Jets.

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:54 PM
part of me wants to see this team go 0-16

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:56 PM
Wow....Another penalty on Ghiacuic

toledodan
10-12-2008, 02:56 PM
TJ limping. Put in little Palmer. Fitz has been pretty useless



i agree. there is no way this team can win any game with fitz running the show. of course i'm sure little palmer would do no better. paging culpepper.

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 02:58 PM
Jets have been rushing three all game and are getting constant pressure.

This Bengals offense is embarrassing right now.

Michael Young
10-12-2008, 02:58 PM
without palmer this team is easily just as bad as lebeau/coslet's worst

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 02:58 PM
Another punt.

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:00 PM
so they're 100% on 3 and out drives so far....

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:01 PM
I like Peko

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:05 PM
wow, a 1st down

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:05 PM
wow, now they're across midfield

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:07 PM
chris perry is the mo wells of the bengals


neither have any business getting the ball

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:07 PM
Nah...didnt need Steven Jackson who was on the board...

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:08 PM
it's getting chilly in Hell with the Bengals getting all these consecutive 1st downs...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:10 PM
The Jets are all over TJ today.

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:11 PM
so apparently fitz likes to throw to ocho

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:12 PM
For the second week in a row, the Bengals have time outs late in a half...

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:12 PM
i can't wait to see how they screw this up

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:15 PM
i'm gonna laugh if they only get a FG here

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:15 PM
Dan Fouts just said 'good scouting' and 'bengals' in the same sentence...:lol:

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:16 PM
fitzpatrick scores, wow

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:16 PM
Fitz!!!! TD!!!

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 03:22 PM
ugly 1st half

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:23 PM
As bad as they look....down by 3 isn't all bad!

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 03:34 PM
As bad as they look....down by 3 isn't all bad!

Fantastic job by the defense again. Jets have only mustered 3.5 yards per play so far and they scored a D TD.

Fitz has thrown for more yards than Favre.

The Bengals appear to finally have a defense.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:37 PM
Bengals running attack continues to stink

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:39 PM
Fitz finally looking comfortable...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:41 PM
Fitz has Kitna hands...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:45 PM
Note to Bengals: If you give Favre time, he WILL beat you

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Marvin White!!!!

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:51 PM
Another pitiful, predictable drive

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 03:52 PM
The Bengals simply can not run the ball.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 03:53 PM
Frostee!

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:00 PM
Chris Perry is headed toward bust status very quickly

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:02 PM
...and now Perry fails in a key situation

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 04:09 PM
Chris Perry is headed toward bust status very quickly

Headed?

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:12 PM
The DL looks a lot better without Thornton's non-production

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:16 PM
YES!!!! PICK!!!

toledodan
10-12-2008, 04:17 PM
another INT! good for the bengals defense but all we do is punt it back and give the jets good field position. atleast its only a 6 point game.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:19 PM
That running play has been pointless all day, but they keep running it to start off every drive...

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:21 PM
How about giving Benson some carries?

Playadlc
10-12-2008, 04:22 PM
Did anyone see Chris Perry there on that block?

Wow.

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:22 PM
Perry just got owned. Please get him out of there

guttle11
10-12-2008, 04:34 PM
Without Carson, the Bengals are the Mississippi State of the NFL. No matter how well they play, they need help from the other team to win.

They're bad, but I'm pretty satisfied with the effort overall. Plenty of good to draw from this, from an individual performance standpoint.

Perry needs to sit, though.

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 04:34 PM
Chris Perry is headed toward bust status very quickly

Isn't he already there?

Highlifeman21
10-12-2008, 04:35 PM
wow, the bengals stopped them from getting 2

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:38 PM
:lol: 0-6

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:42 PM
Steelers next week. 0-7

Matt700wlw
10-12-2008, 04:47 PM
For some reason the Bengals are not using their timeouts...

Bip Roberts
10-12-2008, 04:58 PM
I would like for Palmer to actually stop being a pansy and play in games we have a shot of winning :o

Bip Roberts
10-12-2008, 04:59 PM
For some reason the Bengals are not using their timeouts...
Down by 2 scores I dont really know why it matters.

cincrazy
10-12-2008, 05:06 PM
I would like for Palmer to actually stop being a pansy and play in games we have a shot of winning :o

Palmer isn't a pansy. He isn't healthy, and he's not getting any protection, so why throw him out there? I hope we don't win a game all season so that we can lock up the #1 pick. Palmer shouldn't be out there unless he's 100%, because this team is playing for nothing but draft position

CTA513
10-12-2008, 05:11 PM
The DL looks a lot better without Thornton's non-production

The guys replacing Dexter Jackson and John Thornton have played better than both of them.

Redsfaithful
10-12-2008, 05:38 PM
I hope we don't win a game all season so that we can lock up the #1 pick.

Not sure it matters what pick they have as long as Chris Wells is on the board. It's not like they'd be smart and take Oher. Although I wish they would, would be cool to get him after reading about him in Michael Lewis' book.

Bip Roberts
10-12-2008, 05:41 PM
Palmer isn't a pansy. He isn't healthy, and he's not getting any protection, so why throw him out there? I hope we don't win a game all season so that we can lock up the #1 pick. Palmer shouldn't be out there unless he's 100%, because this team is playing for nothing but draft position

I know him personally and I beat him up. He cant even throw a jab

Reds4Life
10-12-2008, 06:39 PM
If the Bengals get the #1 pick, they need to trade it down for more picks. They have so many holes, no single player is going to correct it, #1 pick or not.

camisadelgolf
10-12-2008, 07:08 PM
But what if that #1 overall pick is projected to be a once-in-a-decade defensive tackle? I'd certainly want to hang on to that one.

Reds4Life
10-12-2008, 07:11 PM
But what if that #1 overall pick is projected to be a once-in-a-decade defensive tackle? I'd certainly want to hang on to that one.

I'd still consider trading it down. Of course, knowing the Bengals and how they operate, they'd waste the picks they do get on crap they could have gotten in later rounds.

MWM
10-12-2008, 08:33 PM
When the Bengals get the #1 pick, they'll likely pick Welss, just like RF said. Either that or a receiver. They're not likely to pick anything that they actually need. That's not the Mike Brown way.

Yachtzee
10-12-2008, 09:53 PM
But what if that #1 overall pick is projected to be a once-in-a-decade defensive tackle? I'd certainly want to hang on to that one.

If they were smart, they would identify the best offensive lineman available and take him or trade down to take him a few picks later and grab a few in the process. Right now their O-Line is not protecting their franchise QB. I'd actually like to see them trade both CJ and TJ to get more help for the OL, either through pics or freeing up cap space. I'd say OL is the main priority, followed by DL and then everything else.

WVRed
10-12-2008, 11:30 PM
The worst move the Bengals made was NOT trading Chad to the Redskins. That is going to come back to bite them because no team is going to pay that price or even close to it now. Marvin's arrogance cost the Bengals.

If Cincinnati gets the no 1 pick, Michael Oher HAS to be the pick. There is no other way around it. If we are in the top 5, Andre Smith and Michael Johnson would be the other two fallback options.

I would avoid Chris Wells, Knoshown Moreno, and Michael Crabtree like the plague. They could be potential stars in the league, but right now this team needs to get back to basics, and that applies to both sides of the ball. Build up the offensive and defensive lines to win in the trenches before worrying about anything else.

Playadlc
10-13-2008, 09:31 AM
The worst move the Bengals made was NOT trading Chad to the Redskins. That is going to come back to bite them because no team is going to pay that price or even close to it now. Marvin's arrogance cost the Bengals.

If Cincinnati gets the no 1 pick, Michael Oher HAS to be the pick. There is no other way around it. If we are in the top 5, Andre Smith and Michael Johnson would be the other two fallback options.

I would avoid Chris Wells, Knoshown Moreno, and Michael Crabtree like the plague. They could be potential stars in the league, but right now this team needs to get back to basics, and that applies to both sides of the ball. Build up the offensive and defensive lines to win in the trenches before worrying about anything else.

I am still debating on this. While OT is clearly a need, I don't know if I don't build on an improving defense with someone like Johnson.

Going to be a tough call.

camisadelgolf
10-13-2008, 01:57 PM
Next year's draft is predicted by some to be the best crop of talent ever. On top of that, it's expected to be particularly stacked at the offensive tackle position.

MWM
10-13-2008, 02:10 PM
Next year's draft is predicted by some to be the best crop of talent ever. On top of that, it's expected to be particularly stacked at the offensive tackle position.

Which is exactly why they won't take one. It's not exaggeration in the least to suggest that any one of us here could step in to Mike Brown's role and do better. I know I could.

guttle11
10-13-2008, 06:09 PM
I think zeroing in on a certain position in the first round would be a mistake. Sure, they should get multiple OL and DLs in the draft, but if they get, say, the third pick and Beanie is sitting there...I won't bat an eye if they take him.

The first round pick is overrated anyway. Take the best player available on your board. Draft need from round 2 on. The difference in talent between a Joe Thomas type and an early second round OT is negligible at best.

I'd rather go bust with Ki-Jana Carter than with Tony Mandarich, that's for sure.

CTA513
10-13-2008, 08:13 PM
I just hope they find a center in either the draft or free agency, because Ghiaciuc sucks.

MWM
10-13-2008, 10:31 PM
I think zeroing in on a certain position in the first round would be a mistake. Sure, they should get multiple OL and DLs in the draft, but if they get, say, the third pick and Beanie is sitting there...I won't bat an eye if they take him.

The first round pick is overrated anyway. Take the best player available on your board. Draft need from round 2 on. The difference in talent between a Joe Thomas type and an early second round OT is negligible at best.

I'd rather go bust with Ki-Jana Carter than with Tony Mandarich, that's for sure.

Top first round O-line talent rarely goes total bust. That's not the case with RBs. Plus, the difference between a top tier tackle and an average tackle and a top tier RB and an average RB is greater, IMO. There's nothing more important on a football team than the O and D lines. You could make a case that QB might be just as important, and I might buy that argument, but that's the only other position you better get right other than the two lines.

WVRed
10-13-2008, 11:23 PM
I think zeroing in on a certain position in the first round would be a mistake. Sure, they should get multiple OL and DLs in the draft, but if they get, say, the third pick and Beanie is sitting there...I won't bat an eye if they take him.

The first round pick is overrated anyway. Take the best player available on your board. Draft need from round 2 on. The difference in talent between a Joe Thomas type and an early second round OT is negligible at best.

I'd rather go bust with Ki-Jana Carter than with Tony Mandarich, that's for sure.

I'm not accusing you of homerism, but unless you are an Ohio State fan, I don't see the fascination with Beanie Wells.

What scares me with Wells is injuries. As MWM said, you will hardly get a bust for an O-Lineman. With a running back, you are running that risk. If you don't have a line, that only increases those odds.

Right now we have a RB afraid of hitting the hole due to injury concerns(Perry), and an offensive line that can't win a battle. If you put Beanie Wells or Knowshown Moreno in there, they might make a marginal improvement.

camisadelgolf
10-14-2008, 08:26 AM
Whenever I play franchise mode on Madden, five of my first six picks are almost always linemen. I'm able to go 16-0 and win the Super Bowl on All-Madden mode. I'm just saying.

gonelong
10-14-2008, 11:28 AM
I'm not accusing you of homerism, but unless you are an Ohio State fan, I don't see the fascination with Beanie Wells.

What scares me with Wells is injuries. As MWM said, you will hardly get a bust for an O-Lineman. With a running back, you are running that risk. If you don't have a line, that only increases those odds.

I'd not be using an early first round pick in the Bengals situation on a guy like Wells, however, the fascination with him is that he is an no doubt difference maker when he is on the field. While injury prone is injury prone, a guy like Adrian Peterson had a heck of a time staying on the field in college as well.


Right now we have a RB afraid of hitting the hole due to injury concerns(Perry), and an offensive line that can't win a battle. If you put Beanie Wells or Knowshown Moreno in there, they might make a marginal improvement.

Agreed, the goal should be a dominate defensive, and then offensive line. QBs, WRs, RBs, DBs, etc. can all be pulled along by a good line, however, it just doesn't work the other way around very often.

GL

guttle11
10-14-2008, 06:57 PM
Top first round O-line talent rarely goes total bust. That's not the case with RBs. Plus, the difference between a top tier tackle and an average tackle and a top tier RB and an average RB is greater, IMO. There's nothing more important on a football team than the O and D lines. You could make a case that QB might be just as important, and I might buy that argument, but that's the only other position you better get right other than the two lines.

Right, but there are 5 offensive lineman, and 3 or 4 defensive linemen on the field. One star isn't really going to make a difference if the others are bad. One RB makes a bigger impact than one lineman.

Very good offensive linemen fall to the later rounds. Good drafts come from depth, not first round picks. IMO, the top ten picks are completely separate from the rest of the draft.

I don't advocate taking a skill player early just to take one. I'm arguing that you take the best player on your draft board if you pick that early. I would much rather gamble on Beanie if he's the best available, and take multiple linemen later. There are good ones to be found...that's not the issue the Bengals will face. Their issue is finding the good ones.

Yachtzee
10-14-2008, 07:35 PM
Right, but there are 5 offensive lineman, and 3 or 4 defensive linemen on the field. One star isn't really going to make a difference if the others are bad. One RB makes a bigger impact than one lineman.

Very good offensive linemen fall to the later rounds. Good drafts come from depth, not first round picks. IMO, the top ten picks are completely separate from the rest of the draft.

I don't advocate taking a skill player early just to take one. I'm arguing that you take the best player on your draft board if you pick that early. I would much rather gamble on Beanie if he's the best available, and take multiple linemen later. There are good ones to be found...that's not the issue the Bengals will face. Their issue is finding the good ones.

I disagree. Good RBs can be found anywhere, but they won't get anywhere unless they have a good OL blocking for them. The Bengals have drafted so many bust RBs in the first round that one would think they would avoid another first round RB at all costs. Build the team from the lines out. OL, DL, QB, LB, TE, DB, RB and WR. Never draft an RB when you don't have an OL to open holes.

Reds4Life
10-14-2008, 07:47 PM
I disagree. Good RBs can be found anywhere, but they won't get anywhere unless they have a good OL blocking for them. The Bengals have drafted so many bust RBs in the first round that one would think they would avoid another first round RB at all costs. Build the team from the lines out. OL, DL, QB, LB, TE, DB, RB and WR. Never draft an RB when you don't have an OL to open holes.

I'm with you. And if the Bengals are in the position, and do have the #1 pick, I'd still trade it down for more 1st round picks if they can. This team has so many holes to fill it's insane.

Newport Red
10-14-2008, 09:05 PM
Bengals back to setting standard for misery
By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer
Oct 14, 3:14 am EDT

Buzz Up PrintCINCINNATI (AP)—When it comes to the perfectly futile start, nobody beats the Cincinnati Bengals.

They’re back at the bottom of the NFL with an 0-6 record. Only one other team—0-5 Detroit—has yet to win a game in a league where it’s very difficult to go so long without so much as one victory.

“It’s just frustrating,” said quarterback Ryan Fitzpatrick, who was the team’s leading rusher Sunday in a 26-14 loss to the Jets. “Everyone in here wants to win so bad.”

Wanting to win and getting a win are two very different things in Cincinnati, where the season-scuttling start is no stranger. The Bengals have been here many times before.

Since franchise founder Paul Brown died before the 1991 season, the Bengals have started a season with six losses far more times than any other team. It’s the sixth time in those 18 years that they’ve done it.

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The Bengals also had notable 0-for starts in 1991 under coach Sam Wyche (0-8), in 1993 under Dave Shula (0-10), again in 1994 under Shula (0-8), in 2000 under Bruce Coslet, who quit halfway through an 0-6 start, and in 2002 under Dick LeBeau (0-7).

Now, Marvin Lewis joins the list of Bengals coaches who have presided over the type of start seldom experienced in the NFL. Since 1991, only 21 times has a team opened the season by losing its first six game. The Bengals have six of those; no other team has more than two.

In the NFL, the Bengals are still the standard for misery.

“Everybody wants to win, and I’m sorry they’re disappointed,” Lewis said Monday, referring to long-suffering fans. “So am I. But unfortunately, that’s where we are right now. But hang on. They could see something special here.”

Special? What they’re seeing is familiar.

The constant through all the losing is owner Mike Brown, who took over when his father died and has run the front office through one of the deepest stretches of futility in league history. The Bengals have only one winning record since he became the de facto general manager in 1991.

Successful teams develop an identity and acquire players who fit the mold. The Bengals haven’t maintained an identity or a course for very long during the last 18 years. Often, the roster moves don’t add up.

With receiver Chris Henry released following his latest arrest and Chad Ocho Cinco threatening to hold out last April, the Bengals decided to load up on receivers early in the draft. They got Jerome Simpson from Coastal Carolina in the second round and Andre Caldwell from Florida in the third.

Neither rookie is playing. Simpson got into three games, but hasn’t caught a pass. Caldwell missed two games with a foot injury and has yet to get on the field. Brown’s decision to bring back Henry—over the head coach’s objection— makes it easier for the two high draft picks to get lost in the shuffle.

In two games since returning from his latest suspension, Henry has caught one pass for 13 yards.

Problems permeate the offense.

Lewis tried to set a course in the offseason by insisting the Bengals get back to running the ball instead of relying on Carson Palmer’s passing to Ocho Cinco and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, a pair of Pro Bowl receivers. Instead, the running game has disintegrated.

Fitzpatrick has filled in twice while Palmer recovers from an injured passing elbow, and wound up as the team’s leading rusher in both games. He and Palmer are second and third, respectively, in the team’s rushing statistics—a very bad sign.

The offensive line got pushed around by the Jets, who limited Chris Perry to 14 yards on 11 carries. The Bengals ran for 43 yards on 21 tries.

“It’s also demoralizing offensively,” Palmer said. “We need to find a way to keep our spirits up and keep our heads in it.”

That sure sounds familiar.

During the other bad starts, different groups of Bengals players learned what it’s like to see a season snuffed out after a half-dozen games. Offensive lineman John Jackson signed with his hometown team in 2000 after glorious years in Pittsburgh, only to learn that one person can’t make much of a difference when things start going bad in Cincinnati.

“I’ve aged since I came here,” he said at the time. “I don’t take losing lightly. I don’t accept it. That’s not me. I’m surprised some of these guys aren’t insane. I’ve only been here for one year. Some of these guys have been here for their whole career. I wonder why half the team’s not going to a psychiatrist.”

The bad days are back again.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-sameoldbengals&prov=ap&type=lgns

guttle11
10-14-2008, 09:10 PM
I disagree. Good RBs can be found anywhere, but they won't get anywhere unless they have a good OL blocking for them. The Bengals have drafted so many bust RBs in the first round that one would think they would avoid another first round RB at all costs. Build the team from the lines out. OL, DL, QB, LB, TE, DB, RB and WR. Never draft an RB when you don't have an OL to open holes.

I wouldn't disagree with a word. Line play is of the utmost importance. But you can't hedge your bets on a first round pick. If you have a guy that you feel is a true game changer available, you take him. Good players can be found in every round, even as undrafted free agents. I would argue that it's easier to find really good linemen as the draft wears on than it is a stud RB or QB. It's a numbers game. There are more linemen in the pool.

The Bengals haven't sucked out loud for two decades because of some first round busts (including a defensive lineman). They've done it by being bad at drafting as a whole. Even if they do take a stud LT or DT this year, they're just as likely to throw away the rest of the draft with their incompetence. The team still won't be better.

Taking that as a likelihood based on evidence, I'll take the impact position player every time. An extra yard per carry, or simply not fumbling, can make a big difference for a team. I'd bet my house that a real RB could get an extra yard over what the Bengals have had this year, even with the same personnel. Plus, let's face it, they'd be more fun to watch with Beanie, Knowshon, or someone similar. If they're bound to losing, which they appear to be regardless, I'd rather be a little bit entertained.

WVRed
10-14-2008, 10:12 PM
I wouldn't disagree with a word. Line play is of the utmost importance. But you can't hedge your bets on a first round pick. If you have a guy that you feel is a true game changer available, you take him. Good players can be found in every round, even as undrafted free agents. I would argue that it's easier to find really good linemen as the draft wears on than it is a stud RB or QB. It's a numbers game. There are more linemen in the pool.

The Bengals haven't sucked out loud for two decades because of some first round busts (including a defensive lineman). They've done it by being bad at drafting as a whole. Even if they do take a stud LT or DT this year, they're just as likely to throw away the rest of the draft with their incompetence. The team still won't be better.

Taking that as a likelihood based on evidence, I'll take the impact position player every time. An extra yard per carry, or simply not fumbling, can make a big difference for a team. I'd bet my house that a real RB could get an extra yard over what the Bengals have had this year, even with the same personnel. Plus, let's face it, they'd be more fun to watch with Beanie, Knowshon, or someone similar. If they're bound to losing, which they appear to be regardless, I'd rather be a little bit entertained.

The problem is, Adrian Peterson or LT, even with competent coaching, would be horrible with our offensive line.

BTW, if you want to consider taking the impact player, I would look heavily at the Detroit Lions. Matt Millen invested draft picks in Joey Harrington(QB), Charles Rogers(WR), Roy Williams(WR), Mike Williams(WR), Kevin Jones(RB), and Calvin Johnson(WR) from 2002-2007. The only first round picks not impact players were Ernie Sims(LB) and Gosder Cherilus(OT).

If you want a model on building a team, look at Miami. They are doing it the right way with taking Jake Long and Phillip Merling with their first two picks last year. Bill Parcells knows how to build a football team, and he is doing it from the inside out.

guttle11
10-14-2008, 10:31 PM
Parcells already had Ronnie Brown, and Matt Ryan was not a universal top pick leading to the draft. Long was the best player available to him.

If the Bengals had a Ronnie Brown type, then we'd all be on the same page. As it stands this year, there is top pick talent at several positions.

It doesn't matter where you start building a team, just whether you do or not. You need good players across the board to win. Millen's fault wasn't going for the skill position early, it was just being an overall terrible GM. Look at all their draft picks, not just the first rounders.

That is my point. Don't harp on the first round. The best point I've seen is trading down for more picks. That's what truly needs to be done (although we all know they'll just screw it up from there anyway...ah, Bengals fandom). They need better linemen, LBs, DBs, and skill offensive guys. When you have a wide variety of needs, I'd like to take the best player available with the top pick. If they think it's Beanie...take him. Someone else...sure. Just don't get tunnel vision with so many top flight talents available to you.

WVRed
10-14-2008, 10:54 PM
Parcells already had Ronnie Brown, and Matt Ryan was not a universal top pick leading to the draft. Long was the best player available to him.

If the Bengals had a Ronnie Brown type, then we'd all be on the same page. As it stands this year, there is top pick talent at several positions.

It doesn't matter where you start building a team, just whether you do or not. You need good players across the board to win. Millen's fault wasn't going for the skill position early, it was just being an overall terrible GM. Look at all their draft picks, not just the first rounders.

That is my point. Don't harp on the first round. The best point I've seen is trading down for more picks. That's what truly needs to be done (although we all know they'll just screw it up from there anyway...ah, Bengals fandom). They need better linemen, LBs, DBs, and skill offensive guys. When you have a wide variety of needs, I'd like to take the best player available with the top pick. If they think it's Beanie...take him. Someone else...sure. Just don't get tunnel vision with so many top flight talents available to you.

The problem with trading down for picks is that with the signing bonuses, teams that pick lower will hesitate to trade up.

Basically, yeah, I would love to trade down. Who in their right mind wouldn't? But the thing is, its just not going to happen.

camisadelgolf
10-15-2008, 09:23 AM
The Bengals' biggest needs, imo:
1. linebacker - Keith Rivers is a good start, but not only do they need difference makers, they need depth
2. defensive tackle - Domata Peko isn't bad, but the Bengals really need to replace Thornton's (non-)production
3. center - Ghiaciuc spends half his games on his back
4. guard - Bobby Williams is getting older and isn't even that good to begin with
5. tackle - Levi Jones' production is slipping, and he has bad legs anyway; Stacy Andrews probably won't stick around
6. halfback - Chris Perry is a damn good third down back, but the Bengals don't have a chance if he's used as an every-down back; Cedric Benson is basically a slightly more mobile, slightly less physical version of Rudi Johnson
7. cornerback - the starters are looking good (when healthy), but depth is lacking big-time
8. fullback - can Jeremi Johnson bounce back? when looking at the decreased production in the running game, it's easy to blame the offensive line, but I think a lot of it comes from the team's only fullback being injured

TeamSelig
10-15-2008, 10:04 AM
What if scenario:

Player A - great offensive lineman
Player B - great defensive lineman

Better O-line or D-line, which do you pick?

At first I thought D-line, for sure. If you have a great pass rush it really limits the opposing team.

But we do have a top of the line QB who cannot be protected and two above average WRs.

Yachtzee
10-15-2008, 10:11 AM
I wouldn't disagree with a word. Line play is of the utmost importance. But you can't hedge your bets on a first round pick. If you have a guy that you feel is a true game changer available, you take him. Good players can be found in every round, even as undrafted free agents. I would argue that it's easier to find really good linemen as the draft wears on than it is a stud RB or QB. It's a numbers game. There are more linemen in the pool.

The Bengals haven't sucked out loud for two decades because of some first round busts (including a defensive lineman). They've done it by being bad at drafting as a whole. Even if they do take a stud LT or DT this year, they're just as likely to throw away the rest of the draft with their incompetence. The team still won't be better.

Taking that as a likelihood based on evidence, I'll take the impact position player every time. An extra yard per carry, or simply not fumbling, can make a big difference for a team. I'd bet my house that a real RB could get an extra yard over what the Bengals have had this year, even with the same personnel. Plus, let's face it, they'd be more fun to watch with Beanie, Knowshon, or someone similar. If they're bound to losing, which they appear to be regardless, I'd rather be a little bit entertained.

The Bengals have taken those "impact" players in the past. Guys like Carl Pickens and Corey Dillon were extremely talented and put up the numbers, but couldn't turn the team around themselves. And when they couldn't do that, they became malcontents. Plus, I don't think Beanie is good enough to risk passing on the top OL/DL available. In all the time I've watched football, there was only one RB who was able to take a bad team, put it on his shoulders and carry them to the playoffs and that was Barry Sanders. Unless you've got the second coming of Barry Sanders, or even a Bo Jackson sitting out there, I just don't think it's worth the risk. Line players may not get all the headlines, but they play a much greater role in making others look good than most give them credit.

Yachtzee
10-15-2008, 10:21 AM
What if scenario:

Player A - great offensive lineman
Player B - great defensive lineman

Better O-line or D-line, which do you pick?

At first I thought D-line, for sure. If you have a great pass rush it really limits the opposing team.

But we do have a top of the line QB who cannot be protected and two above average WRs.

I think it depends on what is available elsewhere in the draft and on the free agent market. If I could fill one of those positions through other channels, I'd look at taking the player whose production I couldn't find elsewhere. Being that the Bengals' biggest need right now is at C, I'd try like crazy to find an accomplished C before the draft. Because Cs are making the blocking calls and need to recognize line formations quickly, I'd prefer a veteran presence there. I might be more inclined to take the DL just because a top DL on the open market always commands a huge amount of money, and being the Bengals, they're likely going to have to overpay to get a guy like that to come to Cincinnati. However, if the OL projects to be the next Anthony Munoz, it's hard to pass that up.