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View Full Version : Who is Redszone's #6 prospect?



OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 08:26 PM
Redszone's Top Prospects

Prospect #1 - Yonder Alonso
Prospect #2 - Todd Frazier
Prospect #3 - Neftali Soto
Prospect #4 - Drew Stubbs
Prospect #5 - Chris Valaika

WMR
10-25-2008, 08:28 PM
Duran Duran for me. :D

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 08:31 PM
Once again, I'll go with Kyle Lotzkar.

Here's my reasoning from the last thread:

Lotzkar was doing some special things in the Midwest League as an 18 year old before going down with an injury. He had a 3.58 ERA and 50 strikeouts in 37.2 innings, an amazing 12.10 K/9. He was especially dominant in his last six starts (21.2 IP, 1.70 ERA, 9 BB/26 K). He's got a great pitchers frame at 6-foot-4 and 200 pounds. His fastball can already tough 95 and has room to improve as his frame fills out. He also throws a curveball and changeup. All three pitches project as plus pitches. He's got true ace potential IMO.

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 08:35 PM
BTW, this poll will be open for three days to make up for the slower traffic on here during the weekends.

JayBruceFan
10-25-2008, 08:59 PM
Where is Chris Heisey?

Betterread
10-25-2008, 09:43 PM
Once again, I'll go with Kyle Lotzkar.

Here's my reasoning from the last thread:

Lotzkar was doing some special things in the Midwest League as an 18 year old before going down with an injury. He had a 3.58 ERA and 50 strikeouts in 37.2 innings, an amazing 12.10 K/9. He was especially dominant in his last six starts (21.2 IP, 1.70 ERA, 9 BB/26 K).
Special? Nothing that Ty Howington, Justin Gillman, Ryan Snare, John Koronka, Bobby Basham, Calvin Medlock and Jordan Smith haven't done.

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 09:50 PM
Where is Chris Heisey?

No one has nominated him yet.

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 10:00 PM
Special? Nothing that Ty Howington, Justin Gillman, Ryan Snare, John Koronka, Bobby Basham, Calvin Medlock and Jordan Smith haven't done.

Those guys don't come close to comparing with Lotzkar.

-Ty Howington didn't pitch in Dayton until he was 19. His numbers: 5.27 ERA, 7.56 K/9.

-Justin Gillman was also 19 when he reach Dayton (3.49 ERA, 6.98 K/9).

-Snare posted a 3.05 ERA and 9.23 K/9 in Dayton...but he was 22 years old.

-Koronoa reach Dayton at age 20, posted 0.75 ERA and 9.38 K/9 in 24 innings.

-Basham posted a 1.64 ERA and 9.96 K/9 at age 22 in Dayton.

-Medlock at age 21 posted a 2.57 ERA and 10.55 K/9 in Dayton.

-Jordan Smith didn't pitch in Dayton until he was 21 years old and his numbers (3.84 ERA, 6.46 K/9) weren't on level with Lotzkar's.

RedsManRick
10-25-2008, 10:33 PM
It's surprising to me how under the radar he is, but Thompson was dominant in AA and very good in AAA at age 22. He may only have a mid-rotation ceiling, but of the guys who have touched the upper minors, he's got to be at the top of the list.

Scrap Irony
10-25-2008, 10:41 PM
If you're going upper minors, look no further than Danny Dorn. Solid defensively (okay, he won't actively hurt you), decent speed, and a nice power bat. He's, at worst, a PH with pop at the big league level and probably the southpaw side of a really productive platoon. If he can hit lefties at all, he may even progress to All Star upside.

I know that doesn't sound like much, but, times were, that was the best the Cincinnati pipeline could muster. He's got an intriguing bat and I think he breaks out this year to the tune of 290/375/550 if he's healthy.

GoReds33
10-25-2008, 10:46 PM
I went with Duran. He's got the most potential of any prospect in this organization, IMO. His power potential is off the charts, and has been compared to the best in the game. If he develops in any way like we think he might, he's going to be a superstar.

Frankly, I just wrote those sentences explaining why I picked Duran, but the real reason is because I didn't see Kyle Lotzkar. That guy is a stud.

Will M
10-25-2008, 10:53 PM
Thompson.

In these polls I generally avoid voting for anyone below AA unless they are an absolute 'A' prospect. Its a long way from Dayton to Cincinnati.

Betterread
10-25-2008, 11:42 PM
-Ty Howington didn't pitch in Dayton until he was 19. His numbers: 5.27 ERA, 7.56 K/9.




Incorrect.
He also pitched in Dayton in 2001 and went 4-0 with a 1.15 ERA in 39 Innings with a 10.85 strikeout ration and a 0.62 whip. The sample size is similiar to Lotzkar's this year. He also had a legit. 95 mph fastball his first two years of pro ball. I was unaware that Lotzkar is hitting 95. What is your source for that info?
I picked Duran - who is even rawer than Lotzkar. However, the Reds org. has displayed the ability to develop OFers, while failing to show the ability to develop HS pitchers.

LoganBuck
10-25-2008, 11:47 PM
I worry about Lotzkar's injury and that devalues him in my mind. I went with Dorn because I think his bat will become Walt's fall back position in LF, if he can't swing the right trade.

OnBaseMachine
10-25-2008, 11:52 PM
Incorrect.
He also pitched in Dayton in 2001 and went 4-0 with a 1.15 ERA in 39 Innings with a 10.85 strikeout ration and a 0.62 whip. The sample size is similiar to Lotzkar's this year. He also had a legit. 95 mph fastball his first two years (2000 and 2001) of pro ball. I was unaware that Lotzkar is hitting 95. What is your source for that info?

Re-read what I said. I said Howington didn't pitch in Dayton until he was 19 years old. He then repeated the next year at age 20 and dominated. As for him touching 95:

From BP:

The Good: A big physical right-hander with a lightning-quick arm, Lotzkar already delivers low-90s fastballs with regularity, can touch 95, and projects for more down the road as he works on his craft. His mechanics are solid and his command is surprisingly good considering his relatively limited experience.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7060

From BA:

Lotzkar’s body began to develop last summer, as he added 15 pounds of muscle and two inches before his senior year of high school in British Columbia. Now 6-foot-4 and 200 pounds, he has a fastball that reached 95 mph in the GCL before a late promotion to the Rookie-level Pioneer League.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/features/264871.html

Lotzkar, 18, was the 53rd overall pick in last year’s draft after shooting up draft boards when he showed a mid-90s fastball, a 78-82 mph curveball and a potentially plus changeup.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?m=200808&paged=16

AmarilloRed
10-26-2008, 12:00 AM
Ramon Ramirez. I fully expect him to be our fifth starter next year; he may even be a good #4 starter. He was pretty impressive in September.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 12:06 AM
I'm still not exactly sure where I'm gonna vote Ramon Ramirez and Chris Dickerson yet. I like both of those guys...I think Dickerson is gonna develop into into at least an average center fielder with great defense and I see Ramirez as a solid back-end starter, or an above average middle reliever. That's good enough for top ten, however, since they're both a little older than your normal prospect I'm leaning toward voting them in the 10-15 range.

REDblooded
10-26-2008, 12:33 AM
I'll be voting Lotzkar until he wins... hopefully this is the last time I have to vote for him.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 12:43 AM
If Lotzkar wins, that will mean three of the Reds top six prospects are from outside the United States. Yonder Alonso is of Cuban descent, Neftali Soto is from Puerto Rico, and Kyle Lotzkar is Canadian. It also looks like Juan Duran (Dominican Republic) may also crack the top 10, and possibly Juan Francisco (Dominican Republic) too. Plus, Yorman Rodriguez and Ramon Ramirez (Venezuela) will most likely crack the top 15. I love the diversity - it shows the Reds are drafting well outside the U.S. and making a commitment to signing big prospects in the International field. That's huge for a smaller market team like the Reds.

Danny Serafini
10-26-2008, 02:10 AM
Some of these players have put up some impressive numbers in the minor leagues. Ramon Ramirez has put up numbers like this - 2.67 ERA, 1.04 WHIP, .556 OPS against - in the Major Leagues. It seems like those numbers deserve a bit more respect.

Mario-Rijo
10-26-2008, 02:50 AM
Some of these players have put up some impressive numbers in the minor leagues. Ramon Ramirez has put up numbers like this - 2.67 ERA, 1.04 WHIP, .556 OPS against - in the Major Leagues. It seems like those numbers deserve a bit more respect.

Ya know I only seen Ramon briefly after his callup (and not previously) so does anyone have any info on him. What does he throw? How did his control & command of his pitches look? Does he have any glaring weaknesses?

I mean I haven't had this much trouble selecting a prospect for a spot in a long time. Every time I think of one that I might go with here I seem to come up with 1 fairly big issue of why not to select them at this spot. Ramirez is perhaps the only one I don't know much about.

icehole3
10-26-2008, 05:46 AM
Im flip flopping like a John Kerry bobble head on Ramirez and Lotzkar, Im back to Ramirez this time, I really shouldnt be voting in these polls.

http://www.SternFanNetwork.com/forum/images/smilies/Animations/dontknow.gif

camisadelgolf
10-26-2008, 07:45 AM
It's surprising to me how under the radar he is, but Thompson was dominant in AA and very good in AAA at age 22. He may only have a mid-rotation ceiling, but of the guys who have touched the upper minors, he's got to be at the top of the list.

If it weren't for his brief ML stint, he'd be a no-doubt top-ten prospect in the organization (amongst RedsZone).


Year Age Aff W L W-L% G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H R ER HR BB SO HBP WP BFP IBB BK ERA WHIP
+----+----+---+---+---+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+---+----+---+---+---+-----+---+---+------+-----+
2008 22 CIN 8 4 .667 21 20 0 0 0 0 126.2 105 47 38 8 30 99 2 6 499 0 0 2.70 1.07

Still, as much as I like Thompson, I'm going with the guy dancing on the sand.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 12:00 PM
Ya know I only seen Ramon briefly after his callup (and not previously) so does anyone have any info on him. What does he throw? How did his control & command of his pitches look? Does he have any glaring weaknesses?


Ramirez throws his fastball in the 89-92 mph range and mixes in a plus changeup and an occasional slider. I remember Rick Sweet saying it's possibly the best changeup in the organization. What makes it so great is the incredible sink on it, I don't know how many times I saw a hitter chase it in the dirt. Right now I think he's got the stuff to be a solid big league starter, but if he can improve that slider he could raise his ceiling a bit. He's not on the level of a Cueto or Volquez, but he's a good pitching prospect IMO.

kpresidente
10-26-2008, 12:51 PM
Ramirez has a career minor league 4.51 with 1.35 WHIP. HR rates are a little high. Combine that with the fact that he'll be 27 next year and I don't see the excitement. The good thing is he's pitched very well out of the bullpen, both in the minors and majors, and that's where I see him ending up. Has good K and BB rates.

AmarilloRed
10-26-2008, 12:54 PM
Ya know I only seen Ramon briefly after his callup (and not previously) so does anyone have any info on him. What does he throw? How did his control & command of his pitches look? Does he have any glaring weaknesses?

I mean I haven't had this much trouble selecting a prospect for a spot in a long time. Every time I think of one that I might go with here I seem to come up with 1 fairly big issue of why not to select them at this spot. Ramirez is perhaps the only one I don't know much about.

As for weaknesses, he did struggle some against left handed batters in limited duty. Too small a sample size to determine if that will be a major weakness down the road.

dougdirt
10-26-2008, 12:56 PM
Ramirez has a career minor league 4.51 with 1.35 WHIP. HR rates are a little high. Combine that with the fact that he'll be 27 next year and I don't see the excitement. The good thing is he's pitched very well out of the bullpen, both in the minors and majors, and that's where I see him ending up. Has good K and BB rates.

I will say this, Ramirez is better right now that those numbers dictate, at the minor league level at least. I do like him as a player, but his age really hurts him in the prospect rankings in my book. Way too early for him in my mind.

OnBaseMachine
10-26-2008, 01:10 PM
Ramirez has a career minor league 4.51 with 1.35 WHIP. HR rates are a little high. Combine that with the fact that he'll be 27 next year and I don't see the excitement. The good thing is he's pitched very well out of the bullpen, both in the minors and majors, and that's where I see him ending up. Has good K and BB rates.

Some guys develop later than others. Ramirez didn't have that great changeup earlier in his career. Now that he's got a plus pitch in his arsenal he's got a chance at being a solid pitcher either as a reliever or a back-end starter.

fearofpopvol1
10-26-2008, 01:41 PM
It's surprising to me how under the radar he is, but Thompson was dominant in AA and very good in AAA at age 22. He may only have a mid-rotation ceiling, but of the guys who have touched the upper minors, he's got to be at the top of the list.

I agree completely. Thompson gets my vote.

kpresidente
10-26-2008, 01:52 PM
I will say this, Ramirez is better right now that those numbers dictate, at the minor league level at least. I do like him as a player, but his age really hurts him in the prospect rankings in my book. Way too early for him in my mind.

I wonder, is there anybody in our ML system who you think isn't better than their stats? Anybody worse?

dougdirt
10-26-2008, 02:51 PM
I wonder, is there anybody in our ML system who you think isn't better than their stats? Anybody worse?

There are some guys who I don't think are as good as their basic stat lines would suggest. There are some guys who I also think are better than their basic stat lines also. Its all about projection and minor league stats don't hold the same projection value as major league stats do.

Mario-Rijo
10-26-2008, 03:56 PM
Ramirez throws his fastball in the 89-92 mph range and mixes in a plus changeup and an occasional slider. I remember Rick Sweet saying it's possibly the best changeup in the organization. What makes it so great is the incredible sink on it, I don't know how many times I saw a hitter chase it in the dirt. Right now I think he's got the stuff to be a solid big league starter, but if he can improve that slider he could raise his ceiling a bit. He's not on the level of a Cueto or Volquez, but he's a good pitching prospect IMO.


As for weaknesses, he did struggle some against left handed batters in limited duty. Too small a sample size to determine if that will be a major weakness down the road.

Thanks guys. I like a guy with a filthy changeup, that bodes very well for him sticking but until he can get that breaking pitch working and/or maybe gains a mph or 2 on his fb I think I would keep him a bit lower than this spot.

I gotta go Dickerson here, I mean he has alot going for him so I will put him here currently. I just wish alot of the others didn't have such large flags right now, as this is more an indicment of them than a plus for him.

JayBruceFan
10-26-2008, 09:15 PM
I would like to nominate Chris Heisey for the next poll

gedred69
10-27-2008, 07:20 PM
If you're going upper minors, look no further than Danny Dorn. Solid defensively (okay, he won't actively hurt you), decent speed, and a nice power bat. He's, at worst, a PH with pop at the big league level and probably the southpaw side of a really productive platoon. If he can hit lefties at all, he may even progress to All Star upside.

I know that doesn't sound like much, but, times were, that was the best the Cincinnati pipeline could muster. He's got an intriguing bat and I think he breaks out this year to the tune of 290/375/550 if he's healthy.

Agreed. I am looking at the guys closest to MLB ready. Now that Valaika finally made the list, Dorn has got to be next. He would have made a quantum leap in '08 on everybody's list, if he hadn't missed a month+ with the sliced leg. He projects a few HRs less than Dunn (30-35), a 20-30 point higher BA, and significantly better glove and speed.

OnBaseMachine
10-27-2008, 08:23 PM
124 votes with exactly one day of voting left. Not bad. This one isn't as close as I thought it would be. It looks like the next poll may come down to Daryl Thompson and Juan Duran.

WMR
10-28-2008, 12:56 AM
Doug rolling with Devin Mesoraco at #6... a bit surprised at that one. Interested to read your take as to why you rank him so high at this juncture, Doug.

dougdirt
10-28-2008, 01:28 AM
Doug rolling with Devin Mesoraco at #6... a bit surprised at that one. Interested to read your take as to why you rank him so high at this juncture, Doug.

I think his bat will come around from what I watched this year. Defensively, he needs some work, but has all the tools and he is a hard worker, so I have faith that he can do it. High risk, high reward.... but his reward is pretty high.

*BaseClogger*
10-28-2008, 02:33 AM
I'll go Mesoraco next, but I favor the arms early...

Mario-Rijo
10-28-2008, 03:44 AM
Doug rolling with Devin Mesoraco at #6... a bit surprised at that one. Interested to read your take as to why you rank him so high at this juncture, Doug.

I was gonna also take him here however he had 15 passed balls and the worst part was he only had 19 of 109 CS. I know the pitcher's weren't doing him any favors (holding guys on) but that # shocked me when I saw it. I'm sure he will improve and hopefully bye a great deal but that hurt him here with me. The offense doesn't concern me as much yet.

mth123
10-28-2008, 06:19 AM
Mesoraco is another guy whose bat being good enough depends entirely on his glove being good enough. When its a guy like Stubbs, Dickerson or Cozart that we know have the glove, that doesn't scare me off as much. When its a guy like Frazier or Soto who have bats that will play anywhere, that doesn't bother me as much either. But guys like Mesoraco and Valaika whose bats are only assets if they can handle certain spots defensively, don't deserve high rankings IMO until the glove becomes more proven. As a result, I have Valaika at 16 and Mesoraco at 19.

I think Lotzkar as the only starter with TOR potential in this poll is the clear choice at number 5. I'll go with Dickerson next.

lollipopcurve
10-28-2008, 06:56 AM
Lotzkar's broken elbow was associated with throwing his slider, which was a plus secondary pitch. If you read the interview with Lotzkar on Doug's site, you'll see that Lotzkar appears to have lost confidence in how he threw the slider -- not good. He's going to make an adjustment of some kind with the pitch, and in my mind that means all bets are off. I was quite high on Lotzkar until the injury -- now, he may not be in my top 20.

TRF
10-28-2008, 09:56 AM
No love for the guy that posted a 1.021 OPS in 100 AB's at the major league level.

Dickerson for me.

lollipopcurve
10-28-2008, 10:01 AM
No love for the guy that posted a 1.021 OPS in 100 AB's at the major league level.

Dickerson for me.

Been saying it since #4.

BRM
10-28-2008, 10:04 AM
No love for the guy that posted a 1.021 OPS in 100 AB's at the major league level.

Dickerson for me.

Maybe they are putting more stock in his career minor league OPS of .778 over 2200 at-bats? Don't get me wrong, I like Dickerson. I just have a hard time putting him high on any prospect list based on his age, career minor league numbers, and his projection of being a 4th outfielder/platoon guy in the majors.

TRF
10-28-2008, 11:05 AM
Maybe they are putting more stock in his career minor league OPS of .778 over 2200 at-bats? Don't get me wrong, I like Dickerson. I just have a hard time putting him high on any prospect list based on his age, career minor league numbers, and his projection of being a 4th outfielder/platoon guy in the majors.

His minor league OPS of .778 is similar to the number used to justify how great Stubbs is. Something along the lines of "if he (Stubbs) can post an OPS above .750 and play GG defense, he'll be a success." Dickerson is Stubbs albeit a couple of years older, and more experienced. Stubbs rocketed through three levels, but didn't really have the stats to warrant the promotion.

Dickerson had 4 full seasons where his SLG went up 2005 at Sarasota .383, 2006 at Chatt. .424, 2007 at Louisville .435 and 2007 also at Louisville .479.

The both start a full season at High A at the same age, 23, but Stubbs was instead pushed through the system despite the fact that he didn't reall SLG much at all. yes he did hit a little more at Sarasota, but his SLG, which we were told would jump when he left Sarasota stayed almost exactly the same. Now racing through the system increases his value as it keeps his age down relative to level, but he's not exactly tearing up the AFL. His stats at AAA were pretty har outside his norm, and the sample was pretty small, suggesting it was something of a fluke for him to SLG about 70 points higher than his minor league career going into his first AAA game.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the top 10, but I don't think he should be higher than Dickerson. JMO.

dougdirt
10-28-2008, 11:13 AM
His minor league OPS of .778 is similar to the number used to justify how great Stubbs is. Something along the lines of "if he (Stubbs) can post an OPS above .750 and play GG defense, he'll be a success." Dickerson is Stubbs albeit a couple of years older, and more experienced. Stubbs rocketed through three levels, but didn't really have the stats to warrant the promotion.

Dickerson had 4 full seasons where his SLG went up 2005 at Sarasota .383, 2006 at Chatt. .424, 2007 at Louisville .435 and 2007 also at Louisville .479.

The both start a full season at High A at the same age, 23, but Stubbs was instead pushed through the system despite the fact that he didn't reall SLG much at all. yes he did hit a little more at Sarasota, but his SLG, which we were told would jump when he left Sarasota stayed almost exactly the same. Now racing through the system increases his value as it keeps his age down relative to level, but he's not exactly tearing up the AFL. His stats at AAA were pretty har outside his norm, and the sample was pretty small, suggesting it was something of a fluke for him to SLG about 70 points higher than his minor league career going into his first AAA game.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be in the top 10, but I don't think he should be higher than Dickerson. JMO.

Of course Dickerson didn't slug over .424 at any stop until this year at age 26 and slugged under .400 at three different times along the way. If Drew Stubbs is 26, still in the minors and has his first season with slugging over .424, then he will be much like Dickerson is right now....having people say 'its way too early for him'. Drew still has 2 full seasons before he is Dickerson's age though, which is why he is going to be ahead of him until he shows he isn't.

BRM
10-28-2008, 11:15 AM
I hear you on the Stubbs comp, TRF. You make a solid argument. Outside of age, is there a significant difference between the two? Both strike out quite a bit, play great defense and have great speed. I keep hearing Stubbs has a higher ceiling though. Maybe that's why he gets more respect.

BRM
10-28-2008, 11:18 AM
So Doug is basically saying age is the driver for why Stubbs gets more respect than Dickerson.

TRF
10-28-2008, 11:19 AM
Of course Dickerson didn't slug over .424 at any stop until this year at age 26 and slugged under .400 at three different times along the way.

incorrect. .424 at age 24 in AA, .435 at age 25 at AAA.

dougdirt
10-28-2008, 11:27 AM
incorrect. .424 at age 24 in AA, .435 at age 25 at AAA.

My bad, he didn't slug over .424 until his age 25 season, in a league Stubbs has already been in at age 23. So Drew still has 2 full seasons to slug over .435 in AAA to be on the same pace as Dickerson does. Thats the difference between two guys at this point and its a decently sized difference.

Lets not take it as I don't like Dickerson, I do.... I just also see him as more of a guy who will have a few decent years at the plate in a specialized utility role where he doesn't face lefties at all before heading to the bench as a backup by the age of 30.

TRF
10-28-2008, 11:28 AM
I hear you on the Stubbs comp, TRF. You make a solid argument. Outside of age, is there a significant difference between the two? Both strike out quite a bit, play great defense and have great speed. I keep hearing Stubbs has a higher ceiling though. Maybe that's why he gets more respect.

I think the difference so far is power, and power potential. Dickerson has shown a progression of power. Not great power, but his SLG trends up while it's hard to get a handle on Stubbs power potential because he didn't stay at any level longer than three month except for Rookie and Low A, and he didn't SLG well at either of those stops. But that is attributed to injury.

I think he's having his value artificially inflated in the hopes that one of two things happens.


he rises to the challenge and lives up to his draft slot and potential. From all accounts, Stubbs "looks" like a ball player. Good frame, speed, can take a walk, but K's a bunch and his swing isn't one that generates a lot of power.
The Reds are looking to package him while his value is high.I'd have Dickerson at 5 and Stubbs closer to 8 in a top ten list.

BRM
10-28-2008, 11:32 AM
Lets not take it as I don't like Dickerson, I do.... I just also see him as more of a guy who will have a few decent years at the plate in a specialized utility role where he doesn't face lefties at all before heading to the bench as a backup by the age of 30.

This is why I have a hard time putting Dickerson high on any prospect list. I like him and think he can be a useful player for the Reds but I don't see him as much more than a platoon center-fielder who can hit righties fairly well. That's a good asset to have on the team but not necessarily worthy of a high ranking on a prospect list.

And I have no idea what to really think of Stubbs at this point.

TRF
10-28-2008, 11:46 AM
My bad, he didn't slug over .424 until his age 25 season, in a league Stubbs has already been in at age 23. So Drew still has 2 full seasons to slug over .435 in AAA to be on the same pace as Dickerson does. Thats the difference between two guys at this point and its a decently sized difference.

Lets not take it as I don't like Dickerson, I do.... I just also see him as more of a guy who will have a few decent years at the plate in a specialized utility role where he doesn't face lefties at all before heading to the bench as a backup by the age of 30.

Lets not forget sample size per league here, something I feel has real relevance. Stubbs hasn't SLG over .421 in any full season yet. in 2008 his SLG against RH was .393. That's who he'll face 2/3 of the time. Meanwhile Dickerson has neve SLG under .424 against RH pitching since High A ball. Meaning Dickerson will be more productive against more pitchers if this trend continues.

Stubbs also has two years to actually SLG what Dickerson did 2 levels ago. He hasn't done it yet, and he's significantly behind him at this point as far as production goes per level.

I just see the value in the guy that has already had success in full seasons at every level. Dickerson may be an average to above average MLB player, and he could blossom into a star. He's younger than 2/3 of the St. Louis OF. I think he's better than Schumaker offensively and defensively. And I can easily see him putting up similar numbers to Ludwick in 2007. Add to that his defense which has never been in question.

BTW, Ryan Ludwick posted a .966 OPS in his second full season at age 30.

I just see Dickerson higher on the list is all.

But I don't want to turn a good series of threads into another of our tireless Stubbs debates, so I'll bow out now.

I'll keep voting Dickerson until he's no longer an option.

OnBaseMachine
10-28-2008, 07:54 PM
The next poll will be open within the next 30 minutes or so. Do you guys prefer keeping the voting open for two days or three?

Mario-Rijo
10-28-2008, 08:19 PM
The next poll will be open within the next 30 minutes or so. Do you guys prefer keeping the voting open for two days or three?

2 days, this last poll seemed to take 4 days.

mth123
10-28-2008, 09:26 PM
I know this poll is over, but want to add my 2 cents on the Dickerson/Stubbs debate. I think these guys are pretty close. Dickerson, being a lefty, has the platoon advantage more often and since these guys both have the potential to go south offensively, I think that actually makes Dickerson the better bet.

Stubbs OTOH is younger, was a first round pick and a guy with a major college background. I think that Stubbs would have greater market value if the Reds were to put him on the block today, so that gives him the nod in my book, but I really think Dickerson has a batter chance to "make it." In my personal rankngs I had Stubbs at 4 and Dickerson at 6.