Reds one of four teams pursuing Khalil Greene [Archive] - RedsZone.com - Cincinnati Reds Fans' Home for Baseball Discussion

Tom Servo

11-04-2008, 01:11 AM

per the san diego union-tribune

DANA POINT — Khalil Greene, a franchise fixture for an 89-victory Padres club just two seasons ago, is now the subject of preliminary trade talks on the heels of his miserable 2008 season.

Clubs have expressed early interest in buying low on the shortstop, who batted .213 with 100 strikeouts last season before missing the final two months because of a self-inflicted hand fracture.

“We've had nibbles,” said General Manager Kevin Towers, who has met with other GMs the last three days at a coastal resort in Orange County.
The Orioles, Reds and Tigers are among those interested. The Nationals and Padres discussed a Greene trade this past summer, but the Nats aren't in play this time around.

Greene is guaranteed $6.5 million in 2009 and can become a free agent after the season. Keeping free agency open, he turned down a four-year, $29 million offer last offseason.

Relations between Greene and the Padres probably are not ideal. After Greene fractured his left hand on July 30, when he wacked a storage chest at Petco Park following a foulball of the shin and his 100th strikeout, the Padres stopped paying his salary, according to the players union.

A dispute between the Padres and the union ensued, and though the Padres eventually paid Greene his remaining salary, the club filed a grievance in an attempt to recoup up to $1.47 million in salary. Greene left the club some two weeks before the season ended.

The Padres have no advanced shortstop prospects behind Greene, who was replaced by utility man Luis Rodriguez last summer.

In the Jake Peavy talks with Atlanta, the clubs have discussed Braves shortstop Yunel Escobar. It is not clear that Atlanta would give up Escobar, a 26-year-old who is a good defender and has a career on-base percentage of .373.

“We're looking to improve the ballclub,” Towers said. “If we move Khalil, Luis Rodriguez is really our backup shortstop and second baseman, so we would create another hole by moving Khalil. There are some ballclubs that have interest in him, but they are also waiting to find out what the going rate is on shortstops.”

Jpup

11-04-2008, 01:18 AM

Get Peavy and Greene. The Reds would have to give up Bruce or Cueto to even be in the running for Peavy.

I wonder what the Friars want for Greene? The can have Gonzalez.

OnBaseMachine

11-04-2008, 01:18 AM

Nice. I like Khalil Greene - he's an above average defender at shortstop and has good power. He could probably be a 20-25 homer threat playing half his games in the GABP. The key will be getting his walk rate back up to where it was in 2004 and 2006. I like that Walt understands shortstop is a position of need...hopefully he can pull off a deal for Greene or a guy like Erick Aybar.

WVRedsFan

11-04-2008, 01:21 AM

No thanks. The last two years his OBP is below .300 despite his power. A younger Gonzo. No.

OnBaseMachine

11-04-2008, 01:31 AM

Greene plays half his games in Petco Park (AKA the Grand Canyon), plus he plays an additional 15 or so games in Dodgers Stadium and AT&T Park. I think putting him in a more hitter friendly environment like GABP could do some good for his offense. My next move be to acquire Adrian Beltre and move Edwin Encarnacion to left field. That would be a great defense IMO. EdE would probably be around average or slight below in LF. Dickerson has a chance to be a plus defender in center and Bruce above average to plus in RF. Beltre is a plus defender at third. Greene is above average. Phillips and Votto are plus. Hanigan is above average behind the plate. Offensively, we're probably looking at a league average offense with room for improvement. If Bruce and EdE take a step forward it's an above average offense. That's a team capable of being a contender IMO.

*BaseClogger*

11-04-2008, 01:39 AM

No thanks. The last two years his OBP is below .300 despite his power. A younger Gonzo. No.

Greene has a career OPS+ of 95, compared to AGon's 80, and is actually a plus fielder at a younger age with a healthier body...

Ltlabner

11-04-2008, 08:02 AM

# YEAR NAME AGE PA EqA OBP SLG VORP RAR RAP
22. 2008 Khalil Greene 28 423 .214 .260 .339 -8.0 -6.4 -18.2
9. 2007 Khalil Greene 27 659 .263 .291 .468 23.0 23.7 6.6
10. 2006 Khalil Greene 26 460 .000 .320 .427 14.2
7. 2005 Khalil Greene 25 476 .000 .296 .431 15.5

There's four reasons why his numbers could have taken such a tumble. None are particularlly heartwarming.

1) Injury. Then you have to figure out type of injury, can he recover, did the injury result in mechanical changes that will reduce performance down the road, etc.

2) He's starting to lose a step. While still pretty young, is his power tied to his bat speed and that speed is starting to wain?

3) Juice? Ok...probably unfair/unlikely but those numbers sure did take a tumble.

4) Normal random variation. Seems like a heck of a drop to just be random, but who knows.

His on base percentage has never been any good. We don't need another hacker up there in a lineup currently chock full of hackers.

Perhaps his defense outweighs his bat, but if his bat doesn't return that better be a damn good glove.

jojo

11-04-2008, 09:02 AM

Perhaps his defense outweighs his bat, but if his bat doesn't return that better be a damn good glove.

His defense isn't that good. I'd argue he's basically a +5 run defender at short. Basically he needs to be '07 with the bat to be a worthwhile addition.

For what it's worth, Marcels projects him at .242/.299/.413 offensively in '09 and CHONE suggests he'll be a +5 defender. The latest Pecota projections aren't out yet but they were more optimistic before his disastrous '08. That's not very inspiring for $6.5M (fingers crossed hoping for a rebound). Basically, the Reds probably shouldn't be sending a ton of talent to San Diego for him.

Greene probably should've taken the Padres' $30M offer.

lollipopcurve

11-04-2008, 09:06 AM

Marcels projects him at .242/.299/.413 offensively in '09

Does the projection assume he's in San Diego?

Chip R

11-04-2008, 09:08 AM

I worry about this guy's durability.

jojo

11-04-2008, 09:16 AM

Does the projection assume he's in San Diego?

It basically just assumes he's breathing and in the NL and 29. Moving from SD to Cincy would be expected to give him a bit of a bounce.

flyer85

11-04-2008, 09:42 AM

I'd be happier if the Reds just admitted that 2009 is a rebuilding season instead of chasing a mirage filled with not very good players.

flyer85

11-04-2008, 09:43 AM

It basically just assumes he's breathing and in the NL and 29. Moving from SD to Cincy would be expected to give him a bit of a bounce.like it does most players in the power category, it doesn't change who he is.

jesusfan

11-04-2008, 09:45 AM

STAY AWAY!!! Hey, Flyer and I finally agree on something.... THROW A PARTY! LOL

dougdirt

11-04-2008, 11:28 AM

He has a .770 road OPS over the last 4 years. Excluding last year its .828 with a .328 OBP and a .500 SLG.

jojo

11-04-2008, 11:38 AM

He has a .770 road OPS over the last 4 years. Excluding last year its .828 with a .328 OBP and a .500 SLG.

I agree but last year is the rub.

Unassisted

11-04-2008, 12:11 PM

Get Peavy and Greene. The Reds would have to give up Bruce or Cueto to even be in the running for Peavy.

Peavy just expanded his list (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/11/03/heyman.peavy/) of acceptable trade destinations, adding Anaheim and the Yankees. The Reds don't appear to be anywhere near his list.

dougdirt

11-04-2008, 12:17 PM

I agree but last year is the rub.

Well if you disagreed we would have to talk about the validity of my math. :D

Last year is a sticking point and why I would certainly be asking them to take on some of the contract, but I wouldn't shy away from him completely either.

BRM

11-04-2008, 12:19 PM

Well if you disagreed we would have to talk about the validity of my math. :D

Last year is a sticking point and why I would certainly be asking them to take on some of the contract, but I wouldn't shy away from him completely either.

His 2008 season is the reason he might come cheap. Walt would be banking on a rebound.

Sea Ray

11-04-2008, 04:15 PM

Sounds like he's really burned bridges with SD. I'd start trade talks by offering them Gonzo for him.

wheels

11-04-2008, 04:28 PM

If he's part of a bigger plan, I'm all for him.

On his own, I don't think his defense would outweigh his lack of hitting prowess and what that would mean for the Reds offense in 09.

Now, if he's just part of a grande scheme that also includes a big outfield bat, and a big time bullpen arm, I say go for it.

He's by no means a cornerstone for a club on the build.

OnBaseMachine

11-04-2008, 04:30 PM

FWIW, Greene has a career .802 OPS on the road.

jojo

11-04-2008, 04:33 PM

Spring~Fields

11-04-2008, 04:38 PM

I had a dream last night the Jocketty acquired Martin, Beltre, Winn and Greene without giving up Harang, Volquez or Cueto. The dream ended before I got a chance to see how the Reds did in the summer though.

My interpretation of the dream.

It ended that way because the Reds had no one left to pitch on the fourth and fifth days, and no one after the sixth innings, so the season ended early. :) Harang and Volquez who had been brought in to relieve by Dusty were early entries to the DL.

Martin, Beltre, Winn
Works for me.

Highlifeman21

11-04-2008, 10:36 PM

So if we get Khalil Greene, what on Earth do we do with Alex Gonzalez?

wheels

11-04-2008, 10:45 PM

So if we get Khalil Greene, what on Earth do we do with Alex Gonzalez?

Ideally, he'd go in the trade for Greene.

Highlifeman21

11-04-2008, 10:46 PM

Ideally, he'd go in the trade for Greene.

Sure, ideally....

... but why would San Diego want anything to do with Alex Gonzalez?

... and, who would we have to give up talent-wise to get Greene, since Gonzalez would be a salary dump to SD?

*BaseClogger*

11-04-2008, 10:58 PM

So if we get Khalil Greene, what on Earth do we do with Alex Gonzalez?

Wait for him to get hurt? :dunno:

klw

11-04-2008, 11:27 PM

Report on NESN or FSNE was that the Sox have offered Coco Crisp for Khalil.
I have no link

MWM

11-04-2008, 11:50 PM

Nice Avatar, klw. I have an original of that box in a nice acrylic case in my office at work.

Highlifeman21

11-04-2008, 11:50 PM

Wait for him to get hurt? :dunno:

That's a huge sunk cost for 1 position.

*BaseClogger*

11-05-2008, 12:35 AM

That's a huge sunk cost for 1 position.

Haha yeah well I doubt anybody else wants the contract, even if RZ really wants them to...

BRM

11-05-2008, 09:48 AM

The only way Gonzalez is leaving is if Walt cuts him. I can't imagine any team giving up anything of value for him, even if he has a healthy spring training.

dfs

11-05-2008, 10:09 AM

I guess I'll take him if the padres are giving him away for box tops. The reds are not in a position where giving away real or future talent for a bunch of one year rentals is a good thing.

Will M

11-05-2008, 10:36 AM

I guess I'll take him if the padres are giving him away for box tops. The reds are not in a position where giving away real or future talent for a bunch of one year rentals is a good thing.

they will be. greene costs $5M for 2009 and is coming off a poor year. if the Pads are lucky they'll get a non prospect and get a team to take on the entire salary

flyer85

11-05-2008, 11:00 AM

The reds are not in a position where giving away real or future talent for a bunch of one year rentals is a good thing.but a lot of folks around here sure would like the front office to do that.

BRM

11-05-2008, 11:04 AM

but a lot of folks around here sure would like the front office to do that.

I don't know. I think a lot of folks have the false hope that Holliday would be willing to sign an extension if he were to get traded to Cincinnati. Those posters don't view him as a one year rental. Although the odds of him giving up his shot at the open market are slim to none.

REDREAD

11-05-2008, 11:05 AM

Sounds like he's really burned bridges with SD. I'd start trade talks by offering them Gonzo for him.

That would be ideal. The salaries are close to a wash. But have one year left. SD gets rid of a headache, the Reds get a potential talent upgrade.

The problem I see though, is that SD wants to shed salary. I think they'd probably prefer to give up Greene for nothing than take on AGon.

Is it worthwhile for the Reds if they could get Greene for a couple of B prospects with the Padres not paying any of Greene's salary? I'm not so sure.
It makes sense if Walt figures Greene is a good rebound candidate and if Walt would like to keep the guy around longterm. But for a one year rental, with AGon still hanging around in a meaningless year? Makes no sense.

I really think that AGon is immovable, which further complicates things.

Still, I don't see Greene as a headcase. I think the Padres poisoned the well. I think he's a great candidate for a change of scenery. Remember Edmunds was considered a problem child before he arrived in StL. Worth a roll of the dice if the Reds would be willing to pony up for the guy after this year (if he bounced back). It's not as if the Reds have a good longterm SS alternative.

REDREAD

11-05-2008, 11:07 AM

Report on NESN or FSNE was that the Sox have offered Coco Crisp for Khalil.
I have no link

That pretty much trumps any offer us fans would like to make, IMO.

Will M

11-05-2008, 11:13 AM

That pretty much trumps any offer us fans would like to make, IMO.

i believe this rumor was false. San Diego wants to shed salary. they don't want Crisp (or Gonzo).

Scrap Irony

11-05-2008, 11:28 AM

lollipopcurve

11-05-2008, 11:29 AM

then sending AGon (along with Freel)

Players coming off serious injuries have zero value until they prove they're healthy and able to play well.

Will M

11-05-2008, 11:33 AM

Players coming off serious injuries have zero value until they prove they're healthy and able to play well.

then just say we'll take Mags but you have to pay 25% of his salary.
imo $48M for 3 years of Mags is too much and hurts his trade value very much. if detroit thinks they can move him/his salary and get good prospects they are mistaken.

TRF

11-05-2008, 11:51 AM

Then how about:

-- Cincinnati dealing B prospect a Sam LeCure type for Greene, then sending AGon (along with Freel) and a couple better prospects to Detroit for Ordonez.

San Diego grabs salary relief, as does Detroit, while the Reds add talent essentially for free.

The prospects would come from a list below the Top 15 or so.
At least one starting arm-- I'm thinking a Maloney and/ or a Ramirez--
One near-ready bullpen arm-- perhaps a Fisher or a Roenicke
And one position player-- maybe Cozart or even Janish could fit the bill.

Helps all three teams, IMO.

I've taken Ordonez early in my last few fantasy drafts. But lets face some facts:

He turns 35 in January. So he's not a long term solution.
He's been durable over the last three seasons, but left the country prior to that for surgery that he couldn't get done in the U.S. While it has been a success, his risk for injury coupled with his age makes him a dubious pickup.
His D last year wasn't very good. Of his 146 games played, 12 games he was a DH or PH.
Offensively the last 5 years he's had exactly one season better than Adam Dunn who would only cost the Reds money and not talent. Yes, I am beating the Dunn drum again.Ordonez is not what the Reds need IMO.

BRM

11-05-2008, 11:53 AM

Boras is saying the Tigers won't trade Ordonez.

dfs

11-05-2008, 12:32 PM

they will be. greene costs $5M for 2009 and is coming off a poor year. if the Pads are lucky they'll get a non prospect and get a team to take on the entire salary

I had not seen your sig before.

1. get a young shortstop
2. get a stopgap left fielder
3. sign Affeldt
4. don't trade away our best prospects
5. be patient. starting in 2010 the Reds will win a lot

Do you take him at that price with the notion that if he revives his career at GAB that he may sign a multiyear deal at the end of 09?

That would take care of #1 on your list. It would certainly be buying low. Greene is likely to put up an OPS+ of 97 or so. If you like Brandon Phillips, you're going to love Khalil Greene.

Yeah. I think that give you the chance of locking up your middle infield without really giving anything away. You're free to bulk up the bullpen and pursue a left fielder looking for a Carlos Pena type player and a catcher.

I could live with that.

Will M

11-05-2008, 12:42 PM

I had not seen your sig before.

Do you take him at that price with the notion that if he revives his career at GAB that he may sign a multiyear deal at the end of 09?

That would take care of #1 on your list. It would certainly be buying low. Greene is likely to put up an OPS+ of 97 or so. If you like Brandon Phillips, you're going to love Khalil Greene.

Yeah. I think that give you the chance of locking up your middle infield without really giving anything away. You're free to bulk up the bullpen and pursue a left fielder looking for a Carlos Pena type player and a catcher.

I could live with that.

I would LOVE for Bobby C to open the pocket book. Sign Lowe. Trade for and sign a huge bat like Holliday. Trade for and sign Beltre. However i am trying to be a bit realistic.

I think Furcal is risky. Hardy may play better at 2B than SS.
Tulowitzki & Holliday for Phillips, Bailey & Stubbs is just a fantasy of mine.
So i think Greene and M.Izturis are the most reasonable targets for a SS. Izturis is preferable - younger/cheaper - but Greene is a fine choice.
The one problem with Greene is that he is just a one year solution.
I would be open to signing him to a longer deal if he revives his career here.

Mario-Rijo

11-05-2008, 12:55 PM

Boras is saying the Tigers won't trade Ordonez.

Which is reverse physcology on the part of the Tigers F.O. they would be down right idiotic not to be looking to deal him. But I hope it's true because I wouldn't want them to take him at this point. Once he gets his 400+ PA's next year he's gauranteed the rest of his gaudy contract which is bad news for anyone. Good healthy productive years from a 37 & 38 year old with a previous history of injury who is gauranteed to make millions for doing nothing? No thanks, that just screams Mets/Yanks come forth and make an offer.

BRM

11-05-2008, 12:58 PM

Which is reverse physcology on the part of the Tigers F.O. they would be down right idiotic not to be looking to deal him. But I hope it's true because I wouldn't want them to take him at this point. Once he gets his 400+ PA's next year he's gauranteed the rest of his gaudy contract which is bad news for anyone. Good healthy productive years from a 37 & 38 year old with a previous history of injury who is gauranteed to make millions for doing nothing? No thanks, that just screams Mets/Yanks come forth and make an offer.

Maggs has a limited no-trade. That's the main reason Boras is claiming he'll stay put.

Mario-Rijo

11-05-2008, 01:01 PM

Maggs has a limited no-trade. That's the main reason Boras is claiming he'll stay put.

That's even better, I can't imagine he'd ok a deal here. So that's good news for us. Scratch Mags off the list people.

Spring~Fields

11-05-2008, 01:05 PM

That's even better, I can't imagine he'd ok a deal here. So that's good news for us. Scratch Mags off the list people.

I think that we are going to be doing a lot of scratching. :D

Mario-Rijo

11-05-2008, 01:12 PM

I think that we are going to be doing a lot of scratching. :D

That's why I had some pretty conservative signings when I started the WWYD thread. The big options are fun to think about but ultimately we will be fairly lucky to p/u Izturis or Greene, Rivera or Blake, Wolf, Beimel and Bard. But if we did I think with some growth from our youth we have a pretty solid season and what harm does it do to sign those guys for a season or 2 in talent or money? None IMO.

Spring~Fields

11-05-2008, 01:20 PM

bucksfan2

11-05-2008, 02:35 PM

That's why I had some pretty conservative signings when I started the WWYD thread. The big options are fun to think about but ultimately we will be fairly lucky to p/u Izturis or Greene, Rivera or Blake, Wolf, Beimel and Bard. But if we did I think with some growth from our youth we have a pretty solid season and what harm does it do to sign those guys for a season or 2 in talent or money? None IMO.

I would be ecstatic with an off season in which the Reds traded for Greene and signed Lowe as a FA. Greene would allow the Reds to move Edwin to the OF, move Gonzo over to 3B and have a very good defensive infield. The outfield wouldn't be too shabby with Dickerson, Bruce and maybe Edwin.

The one thing I don't really want to see happen is a big blockbuster trade. I think the Reds are at the point where they are building a very competitive club and I would hate to see that wasted by trading your younger, more talented players.

AmarilloRed

11-05-2008, 07:43 PM

Here's one idea on what it may take to land Greene:

I exchanged e-mails with someone in San Diego who mentions that the Padres are seeking "advanced prospects or 0-3 guys at virtually any position save first base or third base" in exchange for shortstop Khalil Greene. Pitching is No. 1 on that list.

And "0-3 guys" doesn't include Daniel Cabrera after three starts. We're talking service time.

http://masnsports.com/2008/11/talkin-baseball.html

So they are looking for either pitching prospects close to the major leagues, or young pitchers with up to 3 years of major league experience.

Mario-Rijo

11-05-2008, 08:28 PM

Here's one idea on what it may take to land Greene:

http://masnsports.com/2008/11/talkin-baseball.html

So they are looking for either pitching prospects close to the major leagues, or young pitchers with up to 3 years of major league experience.

Or C, 2B, SS, OF. I'd probably deal them Valaika if they took Freel with him.

AmarilloRed

11-05-2008, 08:31 PM

Or C, 2B, SS, OF. I'd probably deal them Valaika if they took Freel with him.

Pitching was listed as No.1, but they are looking for young positional prospects as well.

mth123

11-06-2008, 03:13 AM

I guess I'll take him if the padres are giving him away for box tops. The reds are not in a position where giving away real or future talent for a bunch of one year rentals is a good thing.

Except a one year rental of a SS protects the long term by not exposing Volquez and Cueto to another season of a little league team behind them on defense. Those guys are going to get burned up if the Reds don't do something. Getting Griffey and Ross off the team helps immensely, and, as much as I liked Dunn, the team probably ends up better off defensively out there. To complete the transformation from laughing stock to acceptable, somebody who can play SS is needed (an upgrade at 3B is needed as well, but upgrading SS is more important and that coupled with the OF should go a long way in making this defense middle of the pack). Gonzalez is not an answer IMO. He had a declining range and a history of missing a lot of time before the career threatening leg injury. Keppinger just is not acceptable defensively at any position, and, given his 660ish OPS, should be on the bubble as far as a roster spot goes IMO. I don't think Kepp going north with the Reds in 2009 should be a given at this point.

If the Padres view Kepp as a decent 2B or utility option, I happily take their problem off their hands by swapping a cheap, good citizen like Kepp for a pricey guy that the team is at odds with like Greene. For the sake of the staff, I'd gladly add a second tier starter like Maloney or Lecure to get the deal done. The Reds lose little, the team becomes more watchable, the defense doesn't put the arms through it again and the Padres save a lot of cash. Green had a horrible 2008, is very pricey and is at odds with the Padres. It shouldn't take a lot to get him and its not a win now move, but a move to protect the future of the guys who are considered long term assets.

If some team is willing to offer more, then move on, but getting a SS is job number 1 for this team IMO and it directly impacts the long term future of the guys we do consider important for when contention may roll back around again. If acquiring a guy like Greene would develop into something beyond a one year rental, that is simply a bonus.

jojo

11-06-2008, 04:57 AM

Concerning Greene, though he only has 1 year left on his current contract ($6.5M), unless Cots hasn't updated service time data, the Padres still control him for 2 years. I think that will be a factor in what they ask for him.

EDIT: Actually a quick check of the Padres media guide verifies what a look at the back of Greene's baseball card would suggest-he does have 5 yrs service time so the Padres are indeed selling one year of Greene's services. So FYI, Cots hasn't updates service time data yet (probably won't until sometime in the winter i.e. maybe December?) so be careful of being lazy like my original entry in this post.

Topcat

11-06-2008, 05:29 AM

No thanks. The last two years his OBP is below .300 despite his power. A younger Gonzo. No.

Um do you realize where half of his games are played or has that fact not come into your evaluation?:confused:

Topcat

11-06-2008, 05:38 AM

Krusty

11-06-2008, 05:42 AM

I just have to ask ? Why do people see Khalil Greene as a 1 year solution ? Does the possibility not exist that upon acquiring he may come to the conclusion that our Reds is the team he could truly be happy with ? Throw a 4 yr 32 million contract and him and I think he would sign , viewing the climate of how this team is truly grooming for long term success.

The money the Reds will be playing Alex Gonzalez for the 2009 season will make him the starting shortstop (assuming his knee is healthy) while Keppinger assumes the caddie position. After 2009, the Reds will look at the youngsters in their system.

If the Reds can produce at least one major leaguer from the farm system each year, the system is in great shape.

Topcat

11-06-2008, 05:44 AM

The money the Reds will be playing Alex Gonzalez for the 2009 season will make him the starting shortstop (assuming his knee is healthy) while Keppinger assumes the caddie position. After 2009, the Reds will look at the youngsters in their system.

If the Reds can produce at least one major leaguer from the farm system each year, the system is in great shape.

I agree Krusty but Gonzo is movable and can actually net a decent return if Red's assume 1/2 his contract. Hell the Red's have spent far more cash on wasted garbage for doing so.

Krusty

11-06-2008, 05:52 AM

I agree Krusty but Gonzo is movable and can actually net a decent return if Red's assume 1/2 his contract. Hell the Red's have spent far more cash on wasted garbage for doing so.

I think Bob C. might be getting sick now of eating contracts.

The Reds need to go back to the old days of developing their own shortstops through the farm system. The question is if Janish, Frazier or others in the system will be next Concepcion, Larkin or Stillwell?

Topcat

11-06-2008, 06:07 AM

Krusty

11-06-2008, 06:16 AM

Krusty the Red's need to be a serious contender at wild card this year or the level of apathy is going to get to Pirates level this coming season.

If that is the case, then you have to talk about acquiring Holliday and Atkins. And if that means paying Holliday between 20 to 25 million a season, so be it. Look, if you can acquire these two players and keep Cueto, Volquez, is that a bad thing? And if ownership has no problem ponying up the money to sign Holliday to an extension, why should the fans?

mth123

11-06-2008, 06:30 AM

I think Bob C. might be getting sick now of eating contracts.

The Reds need to go back to the old days of developing their own shortstops through the farm system. The question is if Janish, Frazier or others in the system will be next Concepcion, Larkin or Stillwell?

Gonzo ever playing again is no sure thing. It sounds awful, but the best outcome for the Reds is for him to be out completely and to collect insurance on his deal. If he comes back, I'm very skeptical that his leg holds up to playing every day. Even when he was "healthy" he wasn't an iron man in there. 130 Games in 2005, 111 games in 2006 and 110 games in 2007. I'm guessing his surprising offense in 2007 was in part due to his limited use that kept his legs fresh.

Keppinger is awful on defense and offense and should have to fight for a roster spot. Janish won't OPS even .600 on the major league level and is a reincarnation of Gary Green - a good AAA insurance policy who can come up and play the spot on defense for a few days until somebody better can be acquired or returns from the DL. Valaika can't handle the position defensively and isn't ready yet anyway. Neither can Adam Rosales (who is probably the best option on the current roster). Frazier is a LF in the making - cross your fingers and hope he can play 3B to bump his value. The Reds have no one in the system who is major league SS capable and the only prospect who may be someday is Zach Cozart who is a 2011 rookie at the very earliest and he has a lot of hurdles to clear to ever make it at all. I'd love to have some one from within, but this team has nobody to play SS starting in 2009. They had no one in 2008 to be honest.

This team needs to bring in somebody that can play the position or kiss those valued arms of Cueto and Volquez goodbye. They'll be walking off the mound one day holding their shoulders in pain from all the 25+ pitch innings forced upon them by this team's pee wee league defense. A SS is needed right now. Its been a need for nearly a decade.

Krusty

11-06-2008, 06:38 AM

Gonzo ever playing again is no sure thing. It sounds awful, but the best outcome for the Reds is for him to be out completely and to collect insurance on his deal. If he comes back, I'm very skeptical that his leg holds up to playing every day. Even when he was "healthy" he wasn't an iron man in there. 130 Games in 2005, 111 games in 2006 and 110 games in 2007. I'm guessing his surprising offense in 2007 was in part due to his limited use that kept his legs fresh.

Keppinger is awful on defense and offense and should have to fight for a roster spot. Janish won't OPS even .600 on the major league level and is a reincarnation of Gary Green - a good AAA insurance policy who can come up and play the spot on defense for a few days until somebody better can be acquired or returns from the DL. Valaika can't handle the position defensively and isn't ready yet anyway. Neither can Adam Rosales (who is probably the best option on the current roster). Frazier is a LF in the making - cross your fingers and hope he can play 3B to bump his value. The Reds have no one in the system who is major league SS capable and the only prospect who may be someday is Zach Cozart who is a 2011 rookie at the very earliest and he has a lot of hurdles to clear to ever make it at all. I'd love to have some one from within, but this team has nobody to play SS starting in 2009. They had no one in 2008 to be honest.

This team needs to bring in somebody that can play the position or kiss those valued arms of Cueto and Volquez goodbye. They'll be walking off the mound one day holding their shoulders in pain from all the 25+ pitch innings forced upon them by this team's pee wee league defense. A SS is needed right now. Its been a need for nearly a decade.

Last we heard, Gonzalez was progressing nicely from surgery and should be ready for spring training. And even if he only plays 130 games, the Reds can use Keppinger as a caddy. Before Keppinger hurt his knee, he was batting over .300 and getting key hits. But I think he rushed back from his knee injury and was never fully healthy for the remainder of the season.

jojo

11-06-2008, 06:39 AM

The question is if Janish, Frazier or others in the system will be next Concepcion, Larkin or Stillwell?

Is that really the question?

remdog

11-06-2008, 07:47 AM

Personally, I'm of the same mind set as mth in that I'm not counting on Gonzo unless and until he can show me that he can play nine innings everyday---which I'm skeptical of.

And, while I don't follow the minors as much as I once did, I don't see anyone currently in the system as being in the same league with a Conception or Larkin. Some can hit but can't carry the glove; for others the glove is big but the bat is the size of a pencil.

Greene is what, 29? If you aren't going to move Phillips to SS and you can land Khalil cheaply enough he can buy you a year----maybe you work things out with him on a 3-4 year deal after that if you like what you see. (famous shrug)

Rem

bucksfan2

11-06-2008, 08:43 AM

And, while I don't follow the minors as much as I once did, I don't see anyone currently in the system as being in the same league with a Conception or Larkin. Some can hit but can't carry the glove; for others the glove is big but the bat is the size of a pencil.

You mean the Reds don't have a boarder line HOF and a future HOF in their minor league system at SS? The problem with SS and the Reds is we have been spoiled for years with Conception and Larkin manning the position for decades.

blumj

11-06-2008, 09:35 AM

You mean the Reds don't have a boarder line HOF and a future HOF in their minor league system at SS?
It would be enough to have someone who can play the position adequately without being an automatic out offensively. Whether from their own system or not. Doesn't seem like too much to ask, but the Reds aren't exactly alone in that boat. Really, it's the same with C, and maybe CF to a lesser extent. Is any team really happy or settled at all 3?

REDREAD

11-06-2008, 10:37 AM

i believe this rumor was false. San Diego wants to shed salary. they don't want Crisp (or Gonzo).

That is a good point. However, I think Crisp has value and could probably be traded for prospects easier than Greene. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm overrating Crisp, but I think that's a pretty good return for Greene.

I like the idea the other poster had of offering up Keppinger and a few B prospects. That gives SD a cheap stopgap at SS, and sheds the salary.
It also lets the Reds audition Greene without a lot of cost. I don't know if SD would bite on that or not.

The more I think about it though, the more I want Greene. I think the guy might really thrive with a change of scenery and in the GAB. If Keppinger is traded, perhaps the Reds can accept AGon as an expensive utility guy for one year.

Benihana

11-06-2008, 10:51 AM

Greene would hit 25 bombs in GAB easily. Couple that with an above average glove at SS and a contract that expires after next season and you have a pretty attractive option.

I'd still prefer to see Furcal or Hudson signed (with Phillips moving to SS in the latter scenario) but this would be a good contingency plan.

blumj

11-06-2008, 10:52 AM

blumj

11-06-2008, 11:08 AM

BTW, I also think the Red and White Sox should just swap Crisp and Swisher. It just seems like a much better fit for both players and both teams, so it probably would never happen.

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 11:36 AM

From Rosenthal:

Greener pastures

Padres shortstop Khalil Greene is drawing interest from the Orioles and Reds, and a move to either team could benefit him greatly, considering that both clubs play in hitter-friendly parks.

Greene, 29, batted only .213 before suffering a season-ending fractured hand on July 31, but he produced a 27-homer, 97-RBI season in 2007 and was an above-average defender before experiencing a dropoff in 2008.

Baltimore's Camden Yards was the No. 1 home-run park last season according to park factor, a measure that compares the rate of statistics at home to the rate of statistics on the road. Cincinnati's Great American Ballpark ranked fourth.

Greene will earn $6.5 million next season, then become a free agent.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/8762816/Payroll-flexibility-gives-A%27s-option-to-look-at-Furcal

Spring~Fields

11-06-2008, 12:38 PM

Khalil Greene
OBP SLG OPS
2005 .296 .431 .727
2006 .320 .427 .747
2007 .291 .468 .759
2008 .260 .339 .599

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5797

2008 Splits
BA OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left .188 .252 .277 .529
vs. Right .222 .263 .361 .624

2007 Splits
BA OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left .268 .343 .471 .814
vs. Right .249 .272 .467 .739

2006 Splits
BA OBP SLG OPS
vs. Left .271 .372 .448 .820
vs. Right .237 .303 .421 .724

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5797&type=batting&year=2008

Oct 02, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug01, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Fractured left hand)
Feb 04, 2008 Signed with San Diego Padres
Jan 16, 2007 Signed with San Diego Padres
Sep 03, 2006 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug 19, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left middle finger)
Aug 19, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn left middle finger ligame)
Aug 30, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug 15, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Broken left toe)
May 09, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL
May 09, 2005 Recalled from minors rehab
May 03, 2005 Sent to minors for rehabilitation
Apr 18, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Fractured right finger)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/news?playerId=5797

reds44

11-06-2008, 01:05 PM

In what way is Khali Greene much of an upgrade from Alex Gonzalez? Outside of some counting stats in 2007 they look like the same type of player.

*BaseClogger*

11-06-2008, 01:07 PM

In what way is Khali Greene much of an upgrade from Alex Gonzalez? Outside of some counting stats in 2007 they look like the same type of player.

Health and defense. If the Reds expect AGon to be the starting SS next year, they might as well start getting Kepp, Hairston, and Janish ready in Spring Training because AGon just can't stay healthy anymore. Khalil Greene is younger than AGon and likely plays better defense. He also has more upside with his bat; just look at their career OPS+: Greene 95, Gonzalez 80...

BRM

11-06-2008, 01:08 PM

In what way is Khali Greene much of an upgrade from Alex Gonzalez? Outside of some counting stats in 2007 they look like the same type of player.

Greene is a better defender at this point. Plus he's younger and has more upside. But you're right, they both look to be low OBP, high slugging types at the plate.

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 01:08 PM

In what way is Khali Greene much of an upgrade from Alex Gonzalez? Outside of some counting stats in 2007 they look like the same type of player.

Gonzalez has a career OPS+ of 80 compared to Greene's OPS+ of 95. Plus Greene is an above average defender at shortstop whereas Gonzalez will probably be average at best after his knee injury.

reds44

11-06-2008, 01:10 PM

Health and defense. If the Reds expect AGon to be the starting SS next year, they might as well start getting Kepp, Hairston, and Janish ready in Spring Training because AGon just can't stay healthy anymore. Khalil Greene is younger than AGon and likely plays better defense. He also has more upside with his bat; just look at their career OPS+: Greene 95, Gonzalez 80...
I'm not saying the Reds shouldn't acquire another SS, I think they should. I'm just not sure how much of an upgrade Greene is, especially considering we would have to trade somethng to get him. I'd target Cabrera and Hudson before Greene.

I'm not sure you can use health as an advantage for Greene.

Oct 02, 2008 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug01, 2008 Placed on 15-day DL (Fractured left hand)
Feb 04, 2008 Signed with San Diego Padres
Jan 16, 2007 Signed with San Diego Padres
Sep 03, 2006 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug 19, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Strained left middle finger)
Aug 19, 2006 Placed on 15-day DL (Torn left middle finger ligame)
Aug 30, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL
Aug 15, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Broken left toe)
May 09, 2005 Removed from 15-day DL
May 09, 2005 Recalled from minors rehab
May 03, 2005 Sent to minors for rehabilitation
Apr 18, 2005 Placed on 15-day DL (Fractured right finger)

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 01:14 PM

I don't want any part of Orlando Cabrera. He's already 34 years old and is coming off a season in which he posted a .705 OPS. His defense is only around average these days and is likely to continue declining. I know Greene had a horrible 2008 at the plate but he's at least got some potential in his bat. His career .802 OPS on the road is encouraging. He could probably give us a .770 OPS if he played half his games in GABP.

*BaseClogger*

11-06-2008, 01:16 PM

^^A lot of those look like freak injuries without doing any further research. I see a lot of finger injuries. I'm not sure how you see Orlando Cabrera as an upgrade, and the FO has no intentions of moving Phillips to SS IMO so the Hudson thing isn't realistic.

Cabrera hasn't had an OPS+ over 100 since 2003 (the only time he's ever done that BTW). He has regressed defensively to the point where Greene is at least as good if not better. He's 34 and is going to require a longer contractual commitment, while Greene can be had for a couple lowly prospects. How is Cabrera better?

reds44

11-06-2008, 01:19 PM

Okay, maybe I don't want Orlando Cabrera lol.

RedRoser

11-06-2008, 01:57 PM

I still say I'd go with Hudson. But that's just me...:)

reds44

11-06-2008, 02:19 PM

I still say I'd go with Hudson. But that's just me...:)
Same here.

Mario-Rijo

11-06-2008, 03:37 PM

I still say I'd go with Hudson. But that's just me...:)

To play...SS? I mean I would do it if I had a deal on the table for BP for a good young SS+ or they went ahead and moved him but I think Walt would rather find a SS than move his GG 2B over. Things might be interesting in spring training to see if BP gets a substantial amount of time over there but I wouldn't count on it.

Falls City Beer

11-06-2008, 03:38 PM

I hate gimps. (Unless he's Chris Carpenter).

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 03:42 PM

I hate gimps. (Unless he's Chris Carpenter).

Yeah, I'm sure the Cardinals love him too. Since signing a five-year, $65 million deal, he's combined to throw 21.1 innings in two seasons.

Falls City Beer

11-06-2008, 03:46 PM

Yeah, I'm sure the Cardinals love him too. Since signing a five-year, $65 million deal, he's combined to throw 21.1 innings in two seasons.

But like Achilles, when he comes 'round, he can lay waste to an entire division. Not a bad thing to have in the reserves.

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 03:49 PM

But like Achilles, when he comes 'round, he can lay waste to an entire division. Not a bad thing to have in the reserves.

I wouldn't ever count on him being that type of pitcher again. He'll be 34 in April and he's still battling elbow and shoulder problems.

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 06:06 PM

Jocketty: No Greene for Reds
GM says team looking for less expensive protection at short

By Mark Sheldon / MLB.com

CINCINNATI -- The Reds could be open to pursuing another shortstop, but it won't be Khalil Greene.

Reds general manager Walt Jocketty on Thursday shot down a newspaper report out of San Diego this week that he was interested in trading with the Padres for Greene.

"We're looking at shortstops but not that one. I don't know where that came from," Jocketty said as he prepared to return home from the General Managers Meetings, which were held in Southern California.

"I told clubs we're looking for protection in the event Alex Gonzalez is not able to play," Jocketty continued. "We're not looking to take on a large salary. It'd be a zero to three [years] guy. Or, we might not do anything. We've got alternatives with Jeff Keppinger, Paul Janish and of course, Gonzalez."

Gonzalez, who is slated to make $5.375 million next season in the final year of his three-year contract, missed all of 2008 because of microfracture surgery on his left knee. Greene, heading into the last year of his deal with San Diego, is due to make $6.5 million.

The GM Meetings did not produce a major transaction this week, but Jocketty touched base with other clubs and agents. He held talks with Casey Close, the agent for infielder/outfielder Jerry Hairston Jr.. Teams have exclusive negotiating rights with their own free agents through Nov. 13.

Hot Stove
An agreement was not imminent between the Reds and Hairston, who became a free agent last week.

"I don't think we're there but maybe we got closer," Jocketty said.

http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081106&content_id=3668306&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

Alright! I sure hope Walt is lying or else we're in trouble. Our shortstop depth sucks. Gonzalez has a serious injury and shouldn't be handed the SS job. Keppinger is an awful defender and not much of a hitter, and Janish can't hit.

RedsManRick

11-06-2008, 06:08 PM

Wow. He's actually mentioning players and intentions. I'm so used to Sgt Krivsky Koverup.

Spring~Fields

11-06-2008, 08:49 PM

"We're not looking to take on a large salary. It'd be a zero to three [years] guy. Or, we might not do anything.

That's interesting too.

Not looking to take on large salary.
0-3 three years on contracts.

Low end free agent or a trade for a stop gap possibly left open.

Also leaves open that he might be looking to unload some salary like a Cordero in a trade to meet some needs.

jojo

11-06-2008, 09:02 PM

Hu could he be thinking about targeting?

OnBaseMachine

11-06-2008, 09:03 PM

Hu could he be thinking about targeting?

Nice. Aybar and Hu would be my two main targets.

Big Klu

11-07-2008, 12:03 AM

That's interesting too.

Not looking to take on large salary.
0-3 three years on contracts.

Low end free agent or a trade for a stop gap possibly left open.

Also leaves open that he might be looking to unload some salary like a Cordero in a trade to meet some needs.

Cordero has full no-trade protection for 2009. The only way you can trade him is if you give him a substantial raise to waive his no-trade clause.

fearofpopvol1

11-07-2008, 10:57 AM

Cordero has full no-trade protection for 2009. The only way you can trade him is if you give him a substantial raise to waive his no-trade clause.

Far too many people overlook this when they talk about trading Cordero.

jojo

11-07-2008, 11:03 AM

Cordero might except a trade for something as relatively benign as an option year being added. These things aren't necessarily the stumbling blocks that many assume.

REDREAD

11-07-2008, 11:10 AM

The Crisp rumor was actually just a mistake. The writer never meant to imply that Crisp had been offered FOR Greene, just the way he worded it led to that misinterpretation by others. He was just trying to say two seperate things, that Greene was available, and that Crisp was being shopped.

Ok, thanks for clarifying that. That makes me feel better about our chances of getting Greene for relatively little.

EDIT: read the rest of the thread and it looks like the Reds are out of the Greene bidding. Thanks for clarifying anyhow.

Looks like Walt is accepting that he's stuck with AGon at SS and is going to spend his resources somewhere other than SS. I can't see this cheap guy he's targeting being very good, just an upgrade from Janish/Keppinger (which shouldn't be that difficult).

blumj

11-07-2008, 11:50 AM

It was actually pretty funny. A lot of the local media picked up on one Seattle writer's awkwardly worded blog post and ran with it all day. But a poster on a Sox fan board thought to e-mail the writer, and he cleared it up. You'd like to think that idea might have occurred to whoever's in charge of the news flashes at a major Boston sports radio station...

REDREAD

11-07-2008, 03:00 PM

Big Klu

11-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Cordero might except a trade for something as relatively benign as an option year being added. These things aren't necessarily the stumbling blocks that many assume.

Cordero might be willing to accept a trade for something as little as an option year being added to to his contract, but such a move might depreciate his value. Other clubs might be more reluctant to trade for him, and be more unwilling to give up players of value, if they know they are on the hook for a player option.

jojo

11-07-2008, 06:40 PM

Cordero might be willing to accept a trade for something as little as an option year being added to to his contract, but such a move might depreciate his value. Other clubs might be more reluctant to trade for him, and be more unwilling to give up players of value, if they know they are on the hook for a player option.

If something like a $2M buyout on an option year for a guy most likely sought as a high leverage arm is a deal breaker, then the return being discussed probably isn't that inspiring before such a clause in the first place.

RedsManRick

11-07-2008, 06:49 PM

Cordero might except a trade for something as relatively benign as an option year being added. These things aren't necessarily the stumbling blocks that many assume.

Especially when you're leaving a smallish market who hasn't had a winning season in nearly a decade. I can't imagine the idea of leaving Cincy is terribly difficult for most players to come to grips with.

OnBaseMachine

11-30-2008, 08:20 PM

According to a poster over on Doug's website, Lee Hamilton reported on XM radio that the Reds are talking to the Padres about Khalil Greene.

Joseph

11-30-2008, 08:32 PM

According to a poster over on Doug's website, Lee Hamilton reported on XM radio that the Reds are talking to the Padres about Khalil Greene.

How recently though?

OnBaseMachine

11-30-2008, 08:34 PM

How recently though?

I guess today. I'm not 100% sure though.

11-30-2008, 09:30 PM

My assumption is that if two teams start offseason talks about a player, they don't really stop talking until the player is moved or the inquiring club has filled that position in another manner. The real keys now are whether the Padres are coming down on the asking price or are the Reds improving their offer? They could also be hashing around alternate ideas.

RedlegJake

11-30-2008, 10:14 PM

All the rumors and snippets being floated...there is a lot of talking and inquiries going on...doesn't guarantee anything of course, depends on costs but I'm expecting a pretty active Winter meetings...I think maybe with the economy right now teams are going to look hard at trades before committing to a lot of the free agents...not just the Reds but all teams...should be real interesting.

Raisor

12-03-2008, 10:33 PM

The NY Post is reporting that Green will probably be traded before the Winter Meetings.

RedEye

12-03-2008, 10:40 PM

I hope WJ doesn't bark up this tree. Me no likey sub-.300 OBP SS.

OnBaseMachine

12-03-2008, 11:25 PM

I hope WJ doesn't bark up this tree. Me no likey sub-.300 OBP SS.

I'd rather have Greene than Gonzalez or Keppinger, though. He does have a respectable .270/.318/.484 - .802 OPS career line away from spacious Petco Park. Put him in the GABP and he may be able to OPS around .770 over a full season while playing solid defense.

Cedric

12-03-2008, 11:31 PM

Greene is someone I wanted targeted. Count me in for him. I think he will produce nicely in GABP with above average defense. I generally expect breakout years from players coming from places like Florida or San Diego. It's not just the ballpark, it's the confidence that comes with seeing some of those "cheap" dingers. I know it's not something objective, but it's something I'd like to know.

Kc61

12-03-2008, 11:39 PM

OnBaseMachine

12-03-2008, 11:55 PM

I know Walt says he wants to primarily acquire guys via trade, but if he trades for Dye, trades for Greene, trades for a catcher -- who all is he going to give up?

He can only trade Homer Bailey once.

Maybe he plans to trade a number of prospects. Maybe he plans to trade Arroyo. Hard for me to envision all these trades happening because I don't see the Reds having that much trade bait.

It shouldn't take much to net Greene IMO. Maybe a Travis Wood + Sean Henry package or Sam Lecure + Henry. IIRC the Padres are fed up with Greene and really want to trade him.