Paul Daugherty Doc: Reds should stand pat

[Spring~Fields]

Paul Daugherty Doc: Reds should stand pat

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081105/COL03/311050100/1007/SPT04

After reading the first 50 names on the list of 184 Major League free agents, your eyes glaze and your mind leaks like jelly from a doughnut. Trying to find someone on this list who can help the Cincinnati Reds is numbing, thankless work. And then you realize:

No one on this list can help the Cincinnati Reds.
The players are almost universally old or overpaid or both. I’ll see your Pat Burrell and raise you Bobby Abreu and Milton Bradley. Derek Lowe? A 35-year-old, $10 million starting pitcher?

“He has a good sinker,’’ a big league exec told me Wednesday. “Perfect for’’ Great American Small Park.

“The Reds don’t need a 35-year-old starter who makes $10 million,’’ I say. “I hope he enjoys his return to the Red Sox.’’

Casey Blake, Richie Sexson, Kevin Millar. . . why?

Pat Burrell, I think, is Adam Dunn’s older brother.

I look at some of the other names. The Reds need a right-handed power hitter. Everyone knows that. Put Matt Holliday in the cleanup spot, ahead of Jay Bruce and behind Joey Votto, and watch ‘em rake. Go get Magglio Ordonez from Detroit. Delmon Young could be available. If that thrills you.

And then I wake up.

The Reds are not going to get Matt Holliday. Bob Castellini wants him, but he doesn’t want to give up Johnny Cueto, for starters, to get him. So much for that.

Holliday goes to a usual suspect: Boston or the Yankees, or anyone else with bags of big money wanting to put up with Holliday’s agent, Scott Boras, the baseball answer to Drew Rosenhaus.

Ordonez? No, my fantasy baseball friends. He’ll be 35 in January and will make $18 million next year, the last year of his contract. Delmon Young? More of a speed player: Ten homers in 575 at-bats at Minnesota last year.

We could continue. Alex Rios of Toronto is a nice, young player. Philly’s Shane Victorino is a high-end Ryan Freel. And so on. People act as if there are teams out there waiting to deal 30-homer power for Homer Bailey.

There really aren’t.

So here’s the plan for the Reds: Do nothing.

Do nothing is the plan. It’s a good plan, once you get past the PR hit. Teams that finish 14-under .500 and haven’t won since 2000 aren’t given the benefit of the do-nothing doubt. But forget the PR. Do what’s right. Which is nothing.

Unless you believe the ’09 Reds can contend for a division title, there is no common sense in dealing a Cueto and/or a Matt Maloney or Homer Bailey, plus a position player, for someone who can hit 35 right-handed homers.

While they’re at it, the Reds should consider dealing Francisco Cordero. He’s a $12 million luxury a non-contender can’t afford. And Cordero will be 34 in May. Give Jared Burton a shot at closing.

OK, OK. I hear you: “We’re tired of losing. This team knows exactly what it needs to win. Go out and get it.’’

Actually, the Reds need more than Matt Holliday. After Bruce, Votto and Brandon Phillips, they are a collection of spare parts. (Another suggestion has been to sign free agent Mark Kotsay. Wow, another backup outfielder.)

They need a second catcher. They might need bullpen help, if David Weathers and Jeremy Affeldt don’t return. They need to make a call on Edwin Encarnacion. And, possibly, on Alex Gonzalez. In other words, the Reds aren’t shaping up to be the Tampa Bay Rays of 2009.

They might be in 2010. But not if they deal Johnny Cueto. How long has this franchise lacked for young starting pitching? And now, you want to trade it away? Nope, time to re-invoke the P Word. The Big Man hates Patience. It isn’t a virtue to him. It is a commodity to be traded for Matt Holliday.

But patience is needed, again. The 2009 Reds should be better than the 2008 Reds, if only because the alien in Aaron Harang’s ’08 uniform will not be back. But they’re not contender-ready, so why make a big move?

When all you need is one puzzle piece, go after it with a singular purpose. When your club is still a Rubik’s Cube, it’s better to turn the edges slowly and with intelligence. No move is a good move.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081105/COL03/311050100/1007/SPT04

:lol:

[chicoruiz]

No mention of Beltre, a name that gets thrown around a lot here. Don't know what that means...

[Sea Ray]

I rarely agree with P Doc who I think knows very little about baseball but I must say I think he's on the right track this time. The Reds situation and the current FA list are not a match this year. Very few of the names I see bandied about on this site are good targets. Most all involve too much money and some also involve trading away our future which is all we have. We don't have a "present".

[edabbs44]

Makes a whole lot of sense. But I wonder if Big Bob will buy into something as logical as this.

[Spring~Fields]

Makes a whole lot of sense. But I wonder if Big Bob will buy into something as logical as this.

I don’t know. Bob is quite the mystery man to me, big on words and bluster, but the rest of Bob is a mystery. There hasn't been much substance to his words to date.

[Unassisted]

The rumor mill in other threads says that they're looking to make some deals. The big question is whether they're laser-focused on those specific deals or looking to deal for the sake of appearing proactive.

[kaldaniels]

I'm in the sign Derek Lowe camp. And frankly, like Lowe or not, 10 Million per for 3 years for a 35 year old doesn't seem that objectionable to me.

[Kc61]

I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this article. The article is a capitulation. It has no plan to get better except sit back and wait. It doesn't analyze the farm system to see whether the Reds can be meaningfully better if they are "patient" without major moves.

The article is internally inconsistent. If the Reds are that hopeless, then why don't they trade Harang instead of hoping that last year's version was a fluke. Because if the team isn't going to try to win, it might as well go all the way and start at square one.

To make its point -- that nobody out there is worth obtaining for the expected price -- the article says things like "Shane Victorino is a high-end Ryan Freel." Really. One guy hasn't played much for two years and who knows when or if he will ever play a full season. The other guy, Victorino, plays all the time and gets clutch hit after clutch hit, including in post-season. He would be well worth having.

The article says Cordero is a luxury the Reds can't afford. Why? Is the team having a financial crisis?

The article is founded on the idea that all available trades are bad trades, like acquiring a rental of Holliday for Cueto, etc. I'm quite confident that Castellini and Jocketty plan to make the team better without making ridiculous trades and without overspending on free agents who aren't worth the money.

The Reds should aggressively pursue deals and free agents, without overspending, making smart deals.

If the Reds offer nothing but a call for patience, as this article does, then they should contract the franchise and replace the team with one that is trying.

[Krusty]

Problem is you have to sell season tickets. This isn't the way of going about it if you're saying in November that you don't have plans of contending in 2009.

[bucksfan2]

PDoc was much better when he was just a writer. He has turned into a pot stirring talk radio host now.

I listened to about a half hour of his show yesterday and I disagreed with Doc. I think a lineup of Votto, Holliday, and Bruce has the potential to be one of the best in the NL. He also made mention that there was no FA signee that would make the Reds competitive. I say if the Reds signed Tex or CC they would jump right into the conversation in the NL Central and the wild card. I have heard a bunch of baseball so called experts calling the Reds a sleeper club.

Apparetly Doc doesn't watch much baseball. Victorino may be one of the most under rated players in the game. He has a laser arm and plays a very good defensive outfield. He comes up with clutch hit after clutch hit. To my untrained eye Victorino seems like the glue that holds the Phillies together. He would be a great get for the Reds.

[nate]

Sometimes "don't just do something, stand there" is better than "don't just stand there, do something."

[Kc61]

Sometimes "don't just do something, stand there" is better than "don't just stand there, do something."


Maybe if you have Evan Longoria, David Price, Matt Garza (acquired for Delmon Young), BJ Upton, and Tim Beckham in your system.

[blumj]

I'm in the sign Derek Lowe camp. And frankly, like Lowe or not, 10 Million per for 3 years for a 35 year old doesn't seem that objectionable to me.
Lowe will get more than that, though.

[flyer85]

Paul stumbled into something.

[Chip R]

In a month, Daugherty will be writing a column on how the Reds need to do just the opposite.

[westofyou]

Apparetly Doc doesn't watch much baseball.

Ya think?

I've been saying this for years and yet every time he has a deadline he turns to the well to take another drink.

The man is not a fan of the game nor is he an astute student of the game today, yesterday and I'm afraid even tomorrow, I wouldn't waste my time listening to him on the radio, having to read him at times is enough.

[REDREAD]

I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this article. The article is a capitulation. It has no plan to get better except sit back and wai.

My reaction exactly. Paul Doc wants a return to the DanO years when there was no attempt to bring in talent from outside the organization.

If Paul D wants to make the argument that Free Agent X, Y, and Z are not good fits, I can respect that.

But it is moronic to make a blanket statement that there's no one available either through trade or FA that is worth getting because they all are either "Freel Lite", too expensive, or would require the Reds to give up too much talent.

With that attitude, we might as well just contract the Reds.

I'd rather Walt take some risks and fail than to sit back and do nothing. While I was critical of Wayne and didn't agree with all his moves, I respect the fact that he was active and trying to improve the team.

[fearofpopvol1]

I didn't think this was too bad. He raises some good points, but the one thing he failed to mention are other possible trades. I don't think it's a good idea to go after the big names, but the Reds desperately need to a SS. It should be priority #1. I also think Edwin is movable and could probably net a decent return (if he's not moved to LF). I'd consider trading some of the other prospects as well to address C and CF (though I think Dickerson/Freel could hold the fort down).

[Ltlabner]

If the Reds are making solid moves that build towards the future and requires some risk or guts...I'm all on board.

If the Reds are thinking of another BCast inspired "win now" shopping sprees, count me out.

The Reds have some money to spend, some young tallent to build around and a GM who's built winners in the past. Standing pat makes less than zero sense.

Standing pat is the intellectually weak way of saying, "I'm such an idiot, I can't figure out one single move to make".

If you follow "standing pat" to it's logical conclusion shut the team down and sell the franchise. If they aren't ready this year and you stand pat, they aren't going to be any better next year. The following year they'll be a little less good. So on and so forth. You'll never be in a position to do anything because "this isn't our year".

[Falls City Beer]

I'm inclined to trade a pretty high percentage of the current roster. Lots and lots of medium-ceiling talent that still has a goodly amount of luster to it. Time to take a big bunch of chances.

[Spring~Fields]

If you follow "standing pat" to it's logical conclusion shut the team down and sell the franchise. If they aren't ready this year and you stand pat, they aren't going to be any better next year. The following year they'll be a little less good. So on and so forth. You'll never be in a position to do anything because "this isn't our year".

That's right.

One major complaint that we each can make about the seasons that have come and gone is that the Reds did not do enough along the way to position themselves for improvement or did not improve their team enough little by little bringing themselves to today.

If the Reds were only competing against a previous years Reds team then staying stagnated for another season or deck chair shuffling might let them slide by.

The Reds aren’t competing against themselves or previous years Reds team, they are competing against the Cubs, Cardinals, and Brewers, competitors that they are already behind, those teams if any of the rumors have any merit to them are not standing pat.

[Sea Ray]

My reaction exactly. Paul Doc wants a return to the DanO years when there was no attempt to bring in talent from outside the organization.


I'd rather Walt take some risks and fail than to sit back and do nothing. While I was critical of Wayne and didn't agree with all his moves, I respect the fact that he was active and trying to improve the team.


I don't understand where you're coming from. Dan O signed Eric Milton and that's exactly the kind of move PD is saying the Reds should avoid. That was taking a risk and attempting to bring in talent and we all know how that turned out.

I'd like to see WJ look to take low risk moves like Rule 5 guys and look for other teams players who are out of options like Brandon Phillips was when we got him from Cleveland. These moves aren't as sexy as Peavy and Holliday but that's the way a team from this market has to do it.

[Mario-Rijo]

I don't understand where you're coming from. Dan O signed Eric Milton and that's exactly the kind of move PD is saying the Reds should avoid. That was taking a risk and attempting to bring in talent and we all know how that turned out.

I'd like to see WJ look to take low risk moves like Rule 5 guys and look for other teams players who are out of options like Brandon Phillips was when we got him from Cleveland. These moves aren't as sexy as Peavy and Holliday but that's the way a team from this market has to do it.

That's not Walt's forte'. He is a big game hunter who doesn't waste as much time looking under every rock, just the big boulders with the occasional rock. If that's what you wanted Krivsky was your man.

[Spring~Fields]

I'm inclined to trade a pretty high percentage of the current roster. Lots and lots of medium-ceiling talent that still has a goodly amount of luster to it. Time to take a big bunch of chances.

If you mean to do what smaller market teams that have been sucessful at doing in trading then I think it is the way to go. (of course you don't mention any names, I can understand why)

When is Cincinnati ever going to have enough talent or money in the business that they are in, competing against the larger financed teams of the largest cities?

[Mario-Rijo]

If the Reds are making solid moves that build towards the future and requires some risk or guts...I'm all on board.

If the Reds are thinking of another BCast inspired "win now" shopping sprees, count me out.

The Reds have some money to spend, some young tallent to build around and a GM who's built winners in the past. Standing pat makes less than zero sense.

Standing pat is the intellectually weak way of saying, "I'm such an idiot, I can't figure out one single move to make".

If you follow "standing pat" to it's logical conclusion shut the team down and sell the franchise. If they aren't ready this year and you stand pat, they aren't going to be any better next year. The following year they'll be a little less good. So on and so forth. You'll never be in a position to do anything because "this isn't our year".

Excellent post! :thumbup:

[Falls City Beer]

If you mean to do what smaller market teams that have been sucessful at doing in trading then I think is the way to go. When is Cincinnati ever going to have enough talent or money in the business that they are in, competing against the larger financed teams of the largest cities?

Yeah, but I'm also recommending trading youth, too. Not just dumping salaries.

Yeah, I'll mention names: Phillips, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Valaika, Encarnacion, Harang, Stubbs, Arroyo

[Mario-Rijo]

I'm inclined to trade a pretty high percentage of the current roster. Lots and lots of medium-ceiling talent that still has a goodly amount of luster to it. Time to take a big bunch of chances.

I agree. There is a lot of medium ceiling talent and now is the time to trade it. 3-6 prospects would be gone with 2 above average players returning if it were me. At some point we have to do something with those prospects and right now some of them still have some luster left to trade with. Wait too long (Bailey) and you no longer have anything to trade.

[Spring~Fields]

Yeah, but I'm also recommending trading youth, too. Not just dumping salaries.

Yeah, I'll mention names: Phillips, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Valaika, Encarnacion, Harang, Stubbs, Arroyo

Then I fully agree with you based upon an assumption that Walt Jocketty and his staff are seasoned veterans with a track record for success and that they would get a good return for those that you have named, and no of course not just some salary dump. A major return of quality.

The Reds could dump salary and add payroll till the cows come home, but their money won't buy what they need. They need to be able to trade to teams what they need and will return in exchange what the Reds will need.

[Mario-Rijo]

Yeah, but I'm also recommending trading youth, too. Not just dumping salaries.

Yeah, I'll mention names: Phillips, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Valaika, Encarnacion, Harang, Stubbs, Arroyo


But I wouldn't go there exactly.

[OnBaseMachine]

Yeah, but I'm also recommending trading youth, too. Not just dumping salaries.

Yeah, I'll mention names: Phillips, Votto, Cueto, Bailey, Valaika, Encarnacion, Harang, Stubbs, Arroyo

Awesome. Then we can suck for another 10 years. Why stop there? Why not trade Bruce and Volquez too.

[Falls City Beer]

But I wouldn't go there exactly.

That's not an inclusive list. I'm simply stating who I'd be willing to trade, not all of the names I want traded.

[Mario-Rijo]

That's not an inclusive list. I'm simply stating who I'd be willing to trade, not all of the names I want traded.

Ok, but Cueto would be a tough one to deal as would Votto but to a slightly lesser extent. I guess what I mean is I wouldn't shop certain names on that list but if I were contacted & bowled over by an offer maybe I trade Harang/Phillips/Arroyo.

[dougdirt]

Awesome. Then we can suck for another 10 years. Why stop there? Why not trade Bruce and Volquez too.

I know where FCB is going with that though. Bruce and Volquez are the only two players I wouldn't trade right now. It would be tough to get a few more (Votto and Harang leap to mind), but outside of Bruce and Volquez, anyone else can be had for the right price.

[Kc61]

When you have a super farm system, you perhaps can be less aggressive in the off-season. The Rays are a great example, although even they made some trades before this season.

For a team like the Reds, they do not have the prospects to become a top team. They can perhaps improve a little with Alonso and maybe Frazier. But there's not enough high end talent to use the "patience" philosophy expressed in this article.

The Reds, of course, could just tank for awhile and try to sign some high picks. Of course, by the time these new guys are ready (3, 4, years from now) who knows what the team will look like.

There are very few long-term building plans in professional sports today. You control a player for a limited time. Project the Reds out three years -- the contracts of Harang, Arroyo, Cordero and probably Phillips will be over. Who are the replacements? My guess, is that the "stand pat" crowd will then say that the team isn't good enough to go for free agents and trade for veterans.

Every off-season there's the same conversation. At some point you have to try to get better.

[Spring~Fields]

Awesome. Then we can suck for another 10 years. Why stop there? Why not trade Bruce and Volquez too.

But doesn't that assume that Jocketty would make bad trades when he has a history of making good decisions? Why is he all of a sudden incapable of doing what other GM's have done with small market teams to make them respectable or now unable to judge talent vs. as he has in the past?

I just don't believe that Harang, Arroyo and Cordero and some double AA prospects are going to take the Reds to the mountain top of the central division against the Cubs, Cards and Brewers.

Let Jocketty see if he can find some more Volquez’s, Bruces etc. for the other weaknesses that the team has. I have to assume that Jocketty would not just toss assets to the wind of folly in some off the wall trade deal. Surely he would not make the hypothetical trade if he could not get a very good return.

Does AA or AAA farm affiliates have any more Cueto’s, Votto’s or Bruces on the way for the Reds?

[Spring~Fields]

When you have a super farm system, you perhaps can be less aggressive in the off-season. The Rays are a great example, although even they made some trades before this season.

For a team like the Reds, they do not have the prospects to become a top team. They can perhaps improve a little with Alonso and maybe Frazier. But there's not enough high end talent to use the "patience" philosophy expressed in this article.

The Reds, of course, could just tank for awhile and try to sign some high picks. Of course, by the time these new guys are ready (3, 4, years from now) who knows what the team will look like.

There are very few long-term building plans in professional sports today. You control a player for a limited time. Project the Reds out three years -- the contracts of Harang, Arroyo, Cordero and probably Phillips will be over. Who are the replacements? My guess, is that the "stand pat" crowd will then say that the team isn't good enough to go for free agents and trade for veterans.

Every off-season there's the same conversation. At some point you have to try to get better.

:clap:



My guess, is that the "stand pat" crowd will then say that the team isn't good enough to go for free agents and trade for veterans.

The price on those won't be going down either so the Reds 3-4 years from now will be even farther out of the market.

[REDREAD]

I don't understand where you're coming from. Dan O signed Eric Milton and that's exactly the kind of move PD is saying the Reds should avoid. That was taking a risk and attempting to bring in talent and we all know how that turned out..

DanO made a few FA signings in his last year. That is true. But for the most part, he was inactive, despite having a surplus of talent in the OF and other chips to move.

His big trade was giving away Reitsma. I can't recall anything bigger. In fact, I can't recall any other trades at all, although I'm sure there was 1 or 2 more.

[Spring~Fields]

DanO made a few FA signings in his last year. That is true. But for the most part, he was inactive, despite having a surplus of talent in the OF and other chips to move.

His big trade was giving away Reitsma. I can't recall anything bigger. In fact, I can't recall any other trades at all, although I'm sure there was 1 or 2 more.

Isn't it O'Brien that made this trade below also and got nothing back?



PITTSBURGH -- The Cincinnati Reds finalized on Thursday the trade of first baseman Sean Casey to the Pittsburgh Pirates for left-hander Dave Williams, a deal that addresses each team's biggest need.

"Sean Casey has been an asset to this organization the last eight years, but if we're going to improve and have a chance in our division, it's going to be about pitching," Reds general manager Dan O'Brien said."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2250330

Perhaps from living through Bowden, O'Brien and Krivsky that is how we became conditioned to think that now even a Jocketty who has done well in the past can't even make a wise trade in 2008. I think he can and will.

Ironic as we write of trade/don't trade/stay pat etc. this quote was also there in 2005 and the Reds still have not answered the problem going to 2009

December 8, 2005, 3:21 PM ET

Coincidentally, Casey's season ended because of a concussion that occurred in a Sept. 16 game in PNC Park. As third baseman Edwin Encarnacion's throw pulled Casey off the bag at first, Humberto Cota's left elbow accidentally struck Casey in the face. Casey lay motionless for about 10 minutes before being taken off the field on a stretcher.

EE's throw, will it ever stop being a problem?

[bucksfan2]

When you have a super farm system, you perhaps can be less aggressive in the off-season. The Rays are a great example, although even they made some trades before this season.

For a team like the Reds, they do not have the prospects to become a top team. They can perhaps improve a little with Alonso and maybe Frazier. But there's not enough high end talent to use the "patience" philosophy expressed in this article.

The Reds, of course, could just tank for awhile and try to sign some high picks. Of course, by the time these new guys are ready (3, 4, years from now) who knows what the team will look like.

There are very few long-term building plans in professional sports today. You control a player for a limited time. Project the Reds out three years -- the contracts of Harang, Arroyo, Cordero and probably Phillips will be over. Who are the replacements? My guess, is that the "stand pat" crowd will then say that the team isn't good enough to go for free agents and trade for veterans.

Every off-season there's the same conversation. At some point you have to try to get better.

I don't know Delmon Young for Garza and Bartlett was a pretty big trade.

[OnBaseMachine]

I just don't see the point in trading a Cueto or Votto type. There aren't too many players out there with the talent they have. These are the type of players you build around. We finally start developing some good major leaguers and now everyone wants to trade them off. When does the cycle end?

[_Sir_Charles_]

For the most part, I agree with Doc on this one. There is NOBODY out there that we can realistically get that will help us. So that really leaves the trade front. And everyone is wanting the pieces we're not willing to part with. This team, AS IS, will be an improvement over the 2008 version. We DO have solid prospects coming up through the system to fill holes in the next few years. So I don't mind us making a minor deal here or there, or even a short-term FA signing to be a stop-gap. But we are not in a position of pulling off a major deal.

I see no need to shop for a starting pitcher. I think we'll sign either Affeldt or Weathers, so I don't see a need to shop for relievers either.

As for the position players, I'd prefer we go for the stop-gap method in filling our holes until the kids are ready for the big stage. LF, SS, C, CF have been the holes mentioned that need filling. We've got a plethora or 2b, 3b & 1b coming up through the ranks, so the relocation suggestions of Votto or Edwin to LF and Phillips to SS would be the biggest moves I'd make for this season.

Dickerson/Freel/Hairston/Hopper should be able to more than hold down the CF job.
2b can be handled by Rosales/Hairston/Valiaka or a decent FA signing (even a short-term one would do)...Orlando Hudson has been suggested and I'd have no problem with that if the contract was right. But I think it'll cost more than it should, if so...pass and hang with the kids.
3b (if EE is moved to LF) can be handled by Keppinger/Gonzo/Janish/etc.
2b, 3b & CF should be a solid platoon system all season long to give us a solid idea of who can handle what position for the long term future.
C can be handled by Hanigan but a backup must be found unless we're wanting to use Javy for that. I'd prefer we not keep Javy, but I certainly don't see many better options out there that won't cost us more than we want to spend.

1b-Votto/Alonso
2b-Rosales/Valiaka/Hairston/Janish
SS-Phillips/Janish
3b-Gonzo/Keppinger/Frazier/Janish
C-Hanigan/Castillo/backup?
RF-Bruce
CF-Dickerson/Freel/Hairston/Hopper
LF-Edwin/Freel/Hairston/Hopper

I obviously don't see us going to the post-season next season unless a TON of things go just right, but we simply HAVE to learn what we've got before we can make any major changes. Outside of these players, we've still got several options that can make some serious impact this coming year & the next. I just don't see us buying our way to a pennant as a logical choice. It's got to be done from within. And that means standing pat for the most part.

[Spring~Fields]

I just don't see the point in trading a Cueto or Votto type. There aren't too many players out there with the talent they have. These are the type of players you build around. We finally start developing some good major leaguers and now everyone wants to trade them off. When does the cycle end?

I don't want the Reds to trade a Votto, Bruce, Cueto, Volquez or even a Hanigan. I want them to be able to obtain more of those types with the promise that those young men bring.

There is free agents out there right now that would put the Reds in contention, but the Reds appear to be unable to afford them or be able to sustain their cost for the years ahead. Over those others competing for those players services.

Gathering youth and making progressive trades is about the only avenue that a Reds GM has isn't it?

[Mario-Rijo]

I sent Daugherty an e-mail regarding this piece. I basically asked him at what point will it be neccessary to put butts in the seats? My argument was not to necc. go all in here but to take a step or 2 forward and keep us competitive by making smaller short term moves. Nothing that will hurt us in terms of money down the road or by dealing away our better prospects. I gave him my WWYD synopsis basically.

Trade for: Izturis (and C John Baker of the Marlins if not sign Bard, That's via Kpresidente)
Sign: Blake (for LF or 3B if EE continues his issues in S/T), Wolf, Beimel, Bard
Re-sign Hairston, Affeldt & Lincoln
Add to the 25 man: Dorn (as a LHB off the bench/5th OF)
Outright release: Freel and Gonzo (if no takers, which I assume)

Here was his response:


Will, thanks, good stuff. I'd dispute Casey Blake's defense. Plus, he's old. I know the Reds would like to find a taker for Freel. They're split internally on what to do w/Cordero. I think Garrett Atkins could be a good possibility for them, in LF. They might agree with you on the LHRP, but not on the need for another SP... and my gut is, they'll make a run at one of Texas' 4 catchers... Paul

BTW I only said Blake's defense was fair. But a few interesting Nuggets there nonetheless. Atkins in LF, interesting? Split on Cordero? Perhaps some in the FO feel we are too far away to keep him. They would like to find a taker for Freel? I think most of us assumed that but it's nice to hear.

[Kc61]

I just don't see the point in trading a Cueto or Votto type. There aren't too many players out there with the talent they have. These are the type of players you build around. We finally start developing some good major leaguers and now everyone wants to trade them off. When does the cycle end?


Nobody would be happy about trading Cueto or Votto. But there are reasons why you might, for the right return.

Cueto allowed 29 home runs in 174 innings last year. Not exactly a ground ball pitcher, perhaps not a great GABP fit. (Harang and Arroyo also give up the long ball.) I could see the Reds trading him in a major deal and signing a Lowe type to fill Cueto's spot.

Votto is a tremendous young hitter. But Alonso is coming up soon and perhaps the Reds intend to trade one of them. They both are best suited to first base.

I'm with Doug on this. The only two untouchables I see are Bruce and Volquez. I also doubt, highly, that the Reds will trade Phillips. Despite his spotty offensive season, the team has only gifted starting infielder defensively and he is it.

I'm not an advocate of trading any of these guys, but you can't get a top major league player in a trade if you offer Ryan Freel's contract, a AAA reliever and maybe Juan Francisco.

[OnBaseMachine]

Cueto allowed 29 home runs in 174 innings last year. Not exactly a ground ball pitcher, perhaps not a great GABP fit. (Harang and Arroyo also give up the long ball.) I could see the Reds trading him in a major deal and signing a Lowe type to fill Cueto's spot.


He's also only 22 years old and has barely pitched 80 innings above High-A. His potential is unlimited. Heck, Volquez himself says Cueto is more talented and has better stuff than he does. In my book, Cueto is just as untouchable as Volquez is. I prefer to build around the four young studs, plus others like Harang and Phillips.

[Kc61]

He's also only 22 years old and has barely pitched 80 innings above High-A. His potential is unlimited. Heck, Volquez himself says Cueto is more talented and has better stuff than he does. In my book, Cueto is just as untouchable as Volquez is. I prefer to build around the four young studs, plus others like Harang and Phillips.

Maybe Walt will proceed that way. It likely depends on specific offers and the possibility of signing free agents (which doesn't require talent to be sent away).

Jocketty now has been with the club for a full season in his two capacities. He has his views of player potential and player value. Every young guy won't be a star. It's up to him to decide who he needs to keep and who he can trade.

But he won't keep everyone.

[Sea Ray]

DanO made a few FA signings in his last year. That is true. But for the most part, he was inactive, despite having a surplus of talent in the OF and other chips to move.

His big trade was giving away Reitsma. I can't recall anything bigger. In fact, I can't recall any other trades at all, although I'm sure there was 1 or 2 more.


I agree with you, that Reitsma trade was his worst and nearly warranted his firing in and of itself. It was an unnecessary move and the folks he got were never projected that high. That showed horrible judgement on his part

[Spring~Fields]

I sent Daugherty an e-mail regarding this piece. I basically asked him at what point will it be neccessary to put butts in the seats? My argument was not to necc. go all in here but to take a step or 2 forward and keep us competitive by making smaller short term moves. Nothing that will hurt us in terms of money down the road or by dealing away our better prospects. I gave him my WWYD synopsis basically.

Trade for: Izturis (and C John Baker of the Marlins if not sign Bard, That's via Kpresidente)
Sign: Blake (for LF or 3B if EE continues his issues in S/T), Wolf, Beimel, Bard
Re-sign Hairston, Affeldt & Lincoln
Add to the 25 man: Dorn (as a LHB off the bench/5th OF)
Outright release: Freel and Gonzo (if no takers, which I assume)

Here was his response:



BTW I only said Blake's defense was fair. But a few interesting Nuggets there nonetheless. Atkins in LF, interesting? Split on Cordero? Perhaps some in the FO feel we are too far away to keep him. They would like to find a taker for Freel? I think most of us assumed that but it's nice to hear.

That was interesting thanks for sharing that with us.

[REDREAD]

Isn't it O'Brien that made this trade below also and got nothing back?



PITTSBURGH -- The Cincinnati Reds finalized on Thursday the trade of first baseman Sean Casey to the Pittsburgh Pirates for left-hander Dave Williams, a deal that addresses each team's biggest need.



That's true. That trade was significant, but IMO the Reitsma deal was bigger. Casey was a salary dump, and I don't think anyone on this board really was excited about Dave Williams. I remember someone on the Reds being quoted that Dave Williams was a #2 starter :lol: , but no one on this board bought it. I think everyone knew that at best, Williams was an acceptable #5 (He ended up worse than that).

[Raisor]

I remember someone on the Reds being quoted that Dave Williams was a #2 starter :lol:

That was the GM.

[remdog]

That was the GM.


He ment the #2 starter at L'ville. The reporter just didn't let him finish his statement. ;)

Rem

[RedsManRick]

That's true. That trade was significant, but IMO the Reitsma deal was bigger. Casey was a salary dump, and I don't think anyone on this board really was excited about Dave Williams. I remember someone on the Reds being quoted that Dave Williams was a #2 starter :lol: , but no one on this board bought it. I think everyone knew that at best, Williams was an acceptable #5 (He ended up worse than that).

At least Williams turned in to Robert Manuel who looks like a pretty useful arm in the pen as early as next season. But yeah, Dave Williams... yuck.