View Full Version : Why Can't 2010 be 2009? - Alonso & Frazier...
hippie07
11-09-2008, 02:05 PM
I am getting super excited about the play of Todd Frazier and Yonder Alonso.. I know that winter stats can be deceiving, but both these guys are carrying on a tradition of successful play. Yes, they are only just 21 & 22 years of age, but Bruce is only 21 as well. Yes, they could benefit from more seasoning in the minors, but if they are the future of the Reds that makes the Reds so good in 2010, what would it hurt to let them get their seasoning in the majors? They both seem to be guys w/ high confidence levels, so why would struggling in the majors hurt them anymore than guys like Bruce (or Cueto)?
I propose that the Reds go ahead and do the inevitable and move Votto to Left field. AND either start out of gate w/ Alonso & Frazier or bring them up after a month or 2 (a la Bruce)
Trades
Phillips+ for Russell Martin
EdE, Daryl Thompson for Conor Jackson
- Jackson would be the perfect pickup because he could spell Alonso, Votto, or Bruce against tough lefties, Diamondbacks will be looking to rearrange their infield w/ the loss of O.Hudson
-Phillips glove is a nice asset and he carries a nice bat along w/ it, but if he could land us Russel Martin... I'll pack his bags for him, Richar is a nice looking prospect and we shouldn't lose much defensively and could be end up being pleasantly surprised offensively.
Since we're going really young and cheap here, and also getting rid of Phillip's salary as well as the arb eligible EdE, we should have tons of money to spend on the bullpen and bench.
FA Signings
Furcal (3 yr. 42 mil)
Marte
Dennys Reyes
Weathers
This would put us at a payroll of about 78mil, some projections put us at spending around $84, so pickups for the bench would be nice.
Lineup
SS Furcal
1b Jackson/Alonso
RF Bruce
C Martin
LF Votto
3b Frazier/Keppinger
CF Dickerson
2b Richar
Bench
Inf/C W. Castillo
c R. Hannigan
1b/OF Jackson
Inf/Of Freel
Inf Keppinger
FA power bat
So... basically, we're Phillips trade and Furcal signing away from a young team that is very competitive (a la Tampa Bay Rays).
Thoughts?
chicoruiz
11-09-2008, 02:49 PM
Wow, Keppinger went from a guy who hits .300 everywhere he plays to a guy who can't beat out Danny Richar...Give Kepp a break guys- 2008 was an injury year for him; it doesn't represent his true value.
hippie07
11-09-2008, 02:59 PM
i don't think penciling Richar in at 2nd precludes Kepp at 2nd. Kepp will prob start at 3rd, however, early on until Frazier is called up and may likely play a lot there while Frazier takes his lumps along the learning curve. (of course I'm assuming EdE is traded here)
But if Frazier's getting it done at 3rd while Kepp & Richar figure out to be about the same defensively... then I'll join you on the Kepp at 2nd bandwagon.
reds44
11-09-2008, 03:11 PM
Wow, Keppinger went from a guy who hits .300 everywhere he plays to a guy who can't beat out Danny Richar...Give Kepp a break guys- 2008 was an injury year for him; it doesn't represent his true value.
Jeff Keppinger is more 2008 than he is 2007.
*BaseClogger*
11-09-2008, 03:34 PM
Jeff Keppinger is more 2008 than he is 2007.
Based on what? Certainly not his track record...
Crosley68
11-09-2008, 03:35 PM
Jeff Keppinger is more 2008 than he is 2007.
I don't think we know this for sure.
My guess is somewhere in the middle. If this is true then he could be a piece of the puzzle but not the complete answer himself.
Scrap Irony
11-09-2008, 03:47 PM
Keppinger would make an ideal platoon player at 2B. Too bad Phillips plays 2B and the Reds aren't looking at moving him to short. A Richar/ Keppinger platoon might be okay at the keystone spot, but not, IMO, at short.
OTOH, a Keppinger/ Dorn platoon in LF would be interesting, as could a Keppinger/ Dickerson platoon in center, assuming the former Bulldog could learn to play center. (He did play some OF during ST last season, if memory serves. Was it all on the corner or did he try some CF, too?)
LoganBuck
11-09-2008, 04:00 PM
Wow, Keppinger went from a guy who hits .300 everywhere he plays to a guy who can't beat out Danny Richar...Give Kepp a break guys- 2008 was an injury year for him; it doesn't represent his true value.
His feet of stone, and lack of power, help to dissuade people from joining his cult. I would rather see Keppinger traded, he is the new Ryan Freel, a player the masses, and the club sponsored media love.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 04:05 PM
I actually don't think the idea of accelerating Frazier's track is a bad idea. He was a college player and he's done a year in the minors...I'd start him at AAA and move him up if he does well after a couple months. I would groom him for 3B and move EdE to LF.
Alonso on the other hand I still think needs some time.
Falls City Beer
11-09-2008, 04:06 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a bench player. He's not even a supersub.
RedsManRick
11-09-2008, 04:07 PM
Jeff Keppinger is more 2008 than he is 2007.
Any evidence to support this? From what I can see, his peripherals suggest otherwise.
Perhaps the slugging was a bitter higher than expected in 2007, but the average and OBP are completely legit. He makes a ton of solid contact and rarely strikes out. That drives a high batting average and solid OBP. In 2008, he had just a .275 BABIP despite a 21.0 LD%.
I'll agree that he's not likely to hit .332/.400/.477 again, but .320/.375/.425 is quite reasonable based on what he does in the box -- and what he did in the box in 2008.
PuffyPig
11-09-2008, 04:46 PM
Any lineup the pencils in Keppinger at third better come with an awfully big eraser.
Cause you're going to need it.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a bench player. He's not even a supersub.
based on what?
mth123
11-09-2008, 04:55 PM
based on what?
Lack of Range on defense? .660ish OPS? No Power to speak of? But he has enough ability to make hard contact against lefties to make him useful in the right role. As long as the team doesn't have somebody else to do that job that can do other things as well its a decent, even though a very specialized, role for him. He's got pretty good hands. He'd probably be a decent RH half of a 1B platoon even though his power isn't ideal. Against lefties he'd hit enough to make up for it. Don't really want to see his two step range in the MI though.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 05:00 PM
Lack of Range on defense? .660ish OPS? No Power to speak of? But he has enough ability to make hard contact against lefties to make him useful in the right role. As long as the team doesn't have somebody else to do that job that can do other things as well its a decent, even though a very specialized, role for him. He's got pretty good hands. He'd probably be a decent RH half of a 1B platoon even though his power isn't ideal. Against lefties he'd hit enough to make up for it. Don't really want to see his two step range in the MI though.
I think too much of your opinion is based on 2008. His career numbers show he's better. There isn't anything you can tell me that would make me believe that the injury didn't impact his play. I'm not saying he should be a starter, but I think he can definitely be a supersub.
Falls City Beer
11-09-2008, 05:11 PM
I think too much of your opinion is based on 2008. His career numbers show he's better. There isn't anything you can tell me that would make me believe that the injury didn't impact his play. I'm not saying he should be a starter, but I think he can definitely be a supersub.
A supersub has to take the field a bunch. I don't want that happening unless it's an emergency.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 05:15 PM
A supersub has to take the field a bunch. I don't want that happening unless it's an emergency.
Okay, but that's not really answering the question. Why? The guy can hit, the guy gets on base and rarely strikes out. I don't really like him at SS, but I think 2B, 3B and LF are fine fits for Keppinger.
Highlifeman21
11-09-2008, 05:17 PM
Okay, but that's not really answering the question. Why? The guy can hit, the guy gets on base and rarely strikes out. I don't really like him at SS, but I think 2B, 3B and LF are fine fits for Keppinger.
But defensively 2B would probably be his best bet, while he's a butcher and a defensive liability at other positions probably minus LF.
mth123
11-09-2008, 05:28 PM
I think too much of your opinion is based on 2008. His career numbers show he's better. There isn't anything you can tell me that would make me believe that the injury didn't impact his play. I'm not saying he should be a starter, but I think he can definitely be a supersub.
Could be. Of course 2008 is the only time he's actually played day in and day out. Maybe he just got exposed.
Mario-Rijo
11-09-2008, 06:23 PM
I don't think Kepp is as bad as he was this season, and I don't think he's as good as we would like to believe he can be. Which probably makes him a supersub at LF,3B,2B and occasionally at 1B. I have a feeling we will hear about him coming into next season in better shape perhaps even at a lighter weight. Which I think would make him more effective both with the bat and glove.
RedsManRick
11-09-2008, 06:47 PM
Could be. Of course 2008 is the only time he's actually played day in and day out. Maybe he just got exposed.
Let's go with your "exposed" explanation. For the sake of playing Devil's Advocate, what did Keppinger do less effectively in 2008 compared to 2007 as a result of being exposed? Did he strike out more often? Did he make less contact? Did hit make poorer contact?
The evidence suggests one primary difference between 2007 and 2008. In 2007, Keppinger's batted balls fell for hits with the frequency one would expect given the types of balls he hit. In 2008, Keppinger's batted balls fell for hits much less often than history suggests they should have. The walk rate was down a little. The ISO power was down significantly. The K rate was the same.
Maybe the quality of contact isn't accurately quantified by simple GB/LD/FB and he hit weaker GB, weaker LD, etc. Perhaps coming back from the knee, he didn't get as much bat speed and simply made weaker contact. I think that's a plausible explanation, but I'd like to see some evidence of that before arriving at that conclusion.
Another reasonable explanation is that he simply had an abnormally high number of balls fielded on the edge of defenders' range, robbing him not just of hits that should have fallen in but of extra base hits, dragging his SLG down with the average. The bad luck explanation, if you will.
Perhaps, as the lower walk rate suggests, he was putting the ball in play more often than he should have. He ended up trading walks for weakly hit balls in play resulting in more outs as a percentage of his "at bats". But that doesn't nearly account for all the change in his figures given -- only extra balls in play.
A narrative is always nice and comforting. And stating that he was a part time player who was "exposed" provides such a narrative. But even if that's the correct explanation, it should show up somewhere closer to the field, in observable events. I don't really see it.
All of that said, if he's a .320/.375/.450 true-talent player, he's hardly an asset at 3B. At 2B, he'd still be below average with the glove and above average with the bat. He's essentially a "better than Paul Don't-Call-Me-Castro Janish" option at SS. I'd be fine with him in a super sub role. I just don't think he should be sold short because what looks like a combination hurt and unlucky season confirmed some existing biases.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 07:09 PM
Could be. Of course 2008 is the only time he's actually played day in and day out. Maybe he just got exposed.
I don't see any reasonable way of concluding this given the injury. He just didn't look like the same player and his career stats would help confirm this. He played infinitely better late in the season and while there is no real way to confirm why, I think it's logical to assume that it's because he came back from the injury earlier than he should have.
mth123
11-09-2008, 07:39 PM
I don't see any reasonable way of concluding this given the injury. He just didn't look like the same player and his career stats would help confirm this. He played infinitely better late in the season and while there is no real way to confirm why, I think it's logical to assume that it's because he came back from the injury earlier than he should have.
His defense wasn't better. I think his range was still only of the two step variety. Day in and Day out, that kills a pitching staff. He'd be better in short bursts and really not at all in the middle of the field. Let him platoon at 1B.
Maybe I'm being extreme, but I think the Reds with Griffey and Ross and Kepp and EdE and Dunn and even Votto looking like he can't handle tough throws from his fielders was about as awful a defense as I've seen. They looked like the Bad News Bears and I mean the lousey beginning of the season version before the good player and the girl joined in. The Reds may not be able to change them all out, but the SS spot should be improved and the chief offender should not play in the MI anymore unless its an emergency. Kepp is to MI as Javy is to the Catcher spot.
fearofpopvol1
11-09-2008, 07:45 PM
His defense wasn't better. I think his range was still only of the two step variety. Day in and Day out, that kills a pitching staff. He'd be better in short bursts and really not at all in the middle of the field. Let him platoon at 1B.
Maybe I'm being extreme, but I think the Reds with Griffey and Ross and Kepp and EdE and Dunn and even Votto looking like he can't handle tough throws from his fielders was about as awful a defense as I've seen. They looked like the Bad News Bears and I mean the lousey beginning of the season version before the good player and the girl joined in. The Reds may not be able to change them all out, but the SS spot should be improved and the chief offender should not play in the MI anymore unless its an emergency. Kepp is to MI as Javy is to the Catcher spot.
I don't think his defense is exceptional, but I also don't think it's bad at certain positions. I just think the injury had something to do more with offense. I think he could be a supersub between 2B, 3B, LF and 1B. I don't like him at SS, but a spot start wouldn't kill the team.
WVRedsFan
11-09-2008, 07:49 PM
Jeff Keppinger is more 2008 than he is 2007.
Keppinger has his fans, but no matter what his "periphals" are, He played more games this year than the rest of his career combined (save 1 game-122 before last year and 121 last year), and as the season went on he got worse. I also look at his career stats (as thin as they may be). He hit .284 .317, and .696 in 33 games with the Mets. He hit .267 .323, and .723 in 22 games with the Royals. In 2007, he played 67 games and had his career year of .332, .400, and .877. Last year, he returned to go .266, .310, and .656.
Yes, he was injured some, but the stats look a whole lot more than 2004 and 2006 than 2007. That and his lack of fielding powress make him a sub--nothing more.
hippie07
11-09-2008, 07:54 PM
boy... how bout those guys Frazier and Alonso..?? ;)
AmarilloRed
11-09-2008, 08:50 PM
boy... how bout those guys Frazier and Alonso..?? ;)
Frazier finished the year in Sarasota, and Alonso will most likely start the year there. I like both, but I don't expect to see either in Cincinnati for at least another 2 years.
LoganBuck
11-09-2008, 09:15 PM
Can we just not like how Keppinger wears his socks, and use that as a reason? The question with Keppinger is, if he can't play short, where does he play? You could bench EdE which the general masses seem to favor. I find that idea appalling.
Wheelhouse
11-09-2008, 09:50 PM
Jeff Keppinger is a bench player. He's not even a supersub.
Disagree. The guy can hit and plays a number of positions well. He had a tough injury to recover from within a season, a knee injury, and you'll see better Kepp next year.
*BaseClogger*
11-09-2008, 10:17 PM
Can we just not like how Keppinger wears his socks, and use that as a reason?
I like the high sock look... ;)
I think Keppinger is a very good hitter that should backup at 2nd and 3rd. I'm a big fan of his and think that his injury really slowed him down. He was great before it. I don't think he's an All-Star but a very good bench guy that the Reds should be glad to have.
bucksfan2
11-10-2008, 08:29 AM
Didn't Keppinger break his knee cap? I couldn't remember if it was his knee or leg. He also was rushed back. I think his injury could have a lot to do with his sub-par stats this season. He really didn't change as a ball player, however, he didn't have his usual power or hip turn because of his leg problems.
Falls City Beer
11-10-2008, 02:19 PM
Disagree. The guy can hit and plays a number of positions well. He had a tough injury to recover from within a season, a knee injury, and you'll see better Kepp next year.
Name one position he plays well. I guess he'd be passable in LF (though not passable offensively in LF), but he's a butcher on the infield. And he doesn't possess the pop of a guy like Aurilia who you can tolerate on the infield because of that.
He's a guy without a position--ideally he'd be a DH somewhere. A righty Sean Casey if you will. Hey, it's not a bad thing to be a good bench hitter, emergency guy. Most teams don't have good bench guys.
osuceltic
11-10-2008, 02:39 PM
Name one position he plays well. I guess he'd be passable in LF (though not passable offensively in LF), but he's a butcher on the infield. And he doesn't possess the pop of a guy like Aurilia who you can tolerate on the infield because of that.
He's a guy without a position--ideally he'd be a DH somewhere. A righty Sean Casey if you will. Hey, it's not a bad thing to be a good bench hitter, emergency guy. Most teams don't have good bench guys.
See, hyperbole like this doesn't help any discussion. He has bad range at shortstop and is slower than you'd like making the double play turn. But he doesn't boot balls and he doesn't throw many away. He's better than Encarnacion at third. He'd be passable at second. He's in no way a butcher.
See, hyperbole like this doesn't help any discussion. He has bad range at shortstop and is slower than you'd like making the double play turn. But he doesn't boot balls and he doesn't throw many away. He's better than Encarnacion at third. He'd be passable at second. He's in no way a butcher.
Which defensive miscues extend innings more frequently:
*errors
*balls a player can't get to due to limited range
See, hyperbole like this doesn't help any discussion. He has bad range at shortstop and is slower than you'd like making the double play turn. But he doesn't boot balls and he doesn't throw many away. He's better than Encarnacion at third. He'd be passable at second. He's in no way a butcher.
He's got about half the range EE has. He won't throw it into the stands, but he'll bounce a bunch. I don't think he's better than EE at all. He certainly doesn't have the stick EE has.
osuceltic
11-10-2008, 04:17 PM
He's got about half the range EE has. He won't throw it into the stands, but he'll bounce a bunch. I don't think he's better than EE at all. He certainly doesn't have the stick EE has.
I didn't say he was a better hitter. But he's a better defender at third. Saying Keppinger has bad range at short is not the same as saying he has bad range at third. Encarnacion's range is drastically overrated by most here. He has bad range and he makes a ton of errors. He's terrible defensively. I firmly believe Keppinger would be an upgrade over there defensively.
I didn't say he was a better hitter. But he's a better defender at third. Saying Keppinger has bad range at short is not the same as saying he has bad range at third. Encarnacion's range is drastically overrated by most here. He has bad range and he makes a ton of errors. He's terrible defensively. I firmly believe Keppinger would be an upgrade over there defensively.
I disagree. EE's problem isn't range, It's throwing only. He's like a cat at third. His problem is when he has time to think about the throw.
*BaseClogger*
11-10-2008, 05:20 PM
I didn't say he was a better hitter. But he's a better defender at third. Saying Keppinger has bad range at short is not the same as saying he has bad range at third. Encarnacion's range is drastically overrated by most here. He has bad range and he makes a ton of errors. He's terrible defensively. I firmly believe Keppinger would be an upgrade over there defensively.
:thumbup:
Keppinger would be fair at 3B or 2B; EE is awful defensively. If Kepp hit .320/.370/.420 he would be an excellent bench option at four positions...
reds44
11-10-2008, 08:43 PM
:thumbup:
Keppinger would be fair at 3B or 2B; EE is awful defensively. If Kepp hit .320/.370/.420 he would be an excellent bench option at four positions...
Keppinger is never going to hit that, though. He's going to be 28 a month into the season so he's not young, and his career line is .287/.338/.390. How do you believe he is going to pull that line out?
Yeah, he makes a lot of contact and hits a lot of singles. That's about all he can do well. There is a reason he's never stuck with any team.
reds44
11-10-2008, 08:45 PM
Keppinger has his fans, but no matter what his "periphals" are, He played more games this year than the rest of his career combined (save 1 game-122 before last year and 121 last year), and as the season went on he got worse. I also look at his career stats (as thin as they may be). He hit .284 .317, and .696 in 33 games with the Mets. He hit .267 .323, and .723 in 22 games with the Royals. In 2007, he played 67 games and had his career year of .332, .400, and .877. Last year, he returned to go .266, .310, and .656.
Yes, he was injured some, but the stats look a whole lot more than 2004 and 2006 than 2007. That and his lack of fielding powress make him a sub--nothing more.
This post can not be said enough. If he is a journeyman career minor leaguer who pulled one season out of the air. He plays a lot of positions and makes a lot of contact which makes him a canidated for the bench, but he doesn't belong anywhere in a starting lineup.
Falls City Beer
11-10-2008, 09:53 PM
Keppinger is never going to hit that, though. He's going to be 28 a month into the season so he's not young, and his career line is .287/.338/.390. How do you believe he is going to pull that line out?
Yeah, he makes a lot of contact and hits a lot of singles. That's about all he can do well. There is a reason he's never stuck with any team.
He's yet to show anywhere near that kind of ability (.800 OPS) over a season. I'll tolerate EE's crappy D not to have that kind of offensive dropoff at 3rd base. A MLB third basemen shouldn't have a .750 OPS with 10 homers on the season. That's called a bench player.
*BaseClogger*
11-10-2008, 10:14 PM
Keppinger is never going to hit that, though. He's going to be 28 a month into the season so he's not young, and his career line is .287/.338/.390. How do you believe he is going to pull that line out?
He's yet to show anywhere near that kind of ability (.800 OPS) over a season.
Hmmm... Probably 2007 when he hit .332.400/.477 over 276 PA's? He could easily post a .790 OPS in a bench role with 250 PA's when leveraged against LHP.
Yeah, he makes a lot of contact and hits a lot of singles. That's about all he can do well. There is a reason he's never stuck with any team.
Gwynn and Ichiro are quite famous for doing that same thing. Saying he's never stuck with a team because he can't hit is just plain lazy IMO.
I'll tolerate EE's crappy D not to have that kind of offensive dropoff at 3rd base. A MLB third basemen shouldn't have a .750 OPS with 10 homers on the season. That's called a bench player.
I find it interesting some posters insist we have to improve defense, but at the same time are not willing to accept a defensive upgrade at the position with our worst fielder. Anyways, let's go back and look at what I said:
Keppinger would be fair at 3B or 2B; EE is awful defensively. If Kepp hit .320/.370/.420 he would be an excellent bench option at four positions...
Didn't I just call him a bench player?
Mario-Rijo
11-10-2008, 10:21 PM
I personally don't think his arm plays very well at 3B, other than in a pinch. But if worse come to worse I'd rather have him there than SS he doesn't cover enough ground for SS. But I'd much rather stick him in LF as the other half of a Dorn platoon. That could work, problem is Dusty isn't much of a fan of platooning.
jesusfan
11-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Keppinger isn't the answer at 3rd base, sad thing is... neither is Edwin.
Falls City Beer
11-10-2008, 10:52 PM
Hmmm... Probably 2007 when he hit .332.400/.477 over 276 PA's? He could easily post a .790 OPS in a bench role with 250 PA's when leveraged against LHP.
Gwynn and Ichiro are quite famous for doing that same thing. Saying he's never stuck with a team because he can't hit is just plain lazy IMO.
I find it interesting some posters insist we have to improve defense, but at the same time are not willing to accept a defensive upgrade at the position with our worst fielder. Anyways, let's go back and look at what I said:
Didn't I just call him a bench player?
I wasn't responding to you specifically, just extending the argument that he doesn't represent a real answer at any infield or outfield position.
I do think defense should be improved, which is why I don't want Keppinger playing anywhere in it. (Or EE, ideally).
*BaseClogger*
11-10-2008, 11:05 PM
I wasn't responding to you specifically, just extending the argument that he doesn't represent a real answer at any infield or outfield position.
I do think defense should be improved, which is why I don't want Keppinger playing anywhere in it. (Or EE, ideally).
OK I agree. I assumed you were responding to me because you said he won't work as a supersub. I think that role is just fine, but he shouldn't be counted on everyday because of his shaky defense, among other reasons...
Speaking of true skill, FWIW, Colin Wyer's Marcels projections suggest Keppie's '09 will look something like .277/.340/.389.....
*BaseClogger*
11-10-2008, 11:25 PM
Speaking of true skill, FWIW, Colin Wyer's Marcels projections suggest Keppie's '09 will look something like .277/.340/.389.....
Interesting. I expect it to be higher if a large chunk of his PA's come against LHP. I would also expect the OBP to be more BA-driven...
Seriously, did I just read a comparison of Keppinger to Tony freaking Gwynn?
Ltlabner
11-11-2008, 09:53 AM
Seriously, did I just read a comparison of Keppinger to Tony freaking Gwynn?
Pretty much. Bizzare.
Keppenger is the answer to the question, "who would be a pretty decent sub/bench guy or trade sweetner?".
He answers no other questions (with the possible exception of "who's last name goes well with the nickname Country?")
RedlegJake
11-11-2008, 10:10 AM
Keppinger gets proper respect on this board - most see him rightfully as a good solid sub, a guy who can come off the bench to fill more than one position reasonably well in limited play but is exposed quickly when the role becomes full time. He can be a key player on a winning team if he is utilized in that role. There's a lot of value in a good bench player. The Reds are filled with good bench players.
*BaseClogger*
11-11-2008, 03:34 PM
Seriously, did I just read a comparison of Keppinger to Tony freaking Gwynn?
I have Keppingitis... I can't help it! :D
Keppinger isn't the answer at 3rd base, sad thing is... neither is Edwin.
Aramis Ramirez says hi.
And Ramirez is EE's ceiling offensively too. EE is also at the age where Ramirez started turning into a solid defensive 3B.
just sayin'.
Aramis Ramirez says hi.
And Ramirez is EE's ceiling offensively too. EE is also at the age where Ramirez started turning into a solid defensive 3B.
just sayin'.
Ramirez isn't a solid defensive thirdsacker though....he's a minus defender.
Ramirez isn't a solid defensive thirdsacker though....he's a minus defender.
All EE has to do is lose half the throwing errors and he'd be a plus defender. I remember Aramis being fairly wild in pittsburgh. His bat certainly helped the Cubs to the post season. I believe offensively EE is close to making the next step and can post similar numbers. We saw some serious spurts of offense from him this year.
Ramirez isn't a solid defensive thirdsacker though....he's a minus defender.
He was a minus defender in '08 but he was +15 in '07. Was '08 just a down year or is he getting worse with age?
He was a minus defender in '08 but he was +15 in '07. Was '08 just a down year or is he getting worse with age?
The appropriate interpretation would be that he wasn't "really" a plus defender in '07. He stunk before and stinks afterward. It's most likely '07 was a sampling phenomenon. It's kind of like Scott Olsen's 2008 ERA.
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