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Krusty
09-14-2002, 01:00 AM
20 pass balls in one season is unheard of by a catcher. Obviously the Reds need to upgrade the position. But if you're another team looking for a catcher, what reasoning would you have to take LaRue?

WVRedsFan
09-14-2002, 02:01 AM
None. Jason should not be on the major league roster. Yeah, he has come through in the clutch on four or five occasions, but the Reds need to look for another catcher.

westofyou
09-14-2002, 02:09 AM
20 pass balls in one season is unheard of by a catcher.


It would really be unheard of from a 3rd baseman. ;)


Not to defend LaRue (I'll leave that windmill for someone else)

But..... it's more common then you'd think

Since 1950


PASSED BALLS YEAR PB PB
1 Geno Petralli 1987 35 35
2 J.C. Martin 1965 33 33
T3 Earl Williams 1972 28 28
T3 Ted Simmons 1975 28 28
T3 Gus Triandos 1959 28 28
T6 Bob Uecker 1967 27 27
T6 Bob Didier 1969 27 27
8 Mike Macfarlane 1995 26 26
T9 Dick Dietz 1970 25 25
T9 Jason Varitek 1999 25 25
T9 Ted Simmons 1973 25 25
T12 Ed Herrmann 1973 24 24
T12 J.C. Martin 1964 24 24
T14 Benito Santiago 1993 23 23
T14 Dick Bertell 1961 23 23
16 Benito Santiago 1987 22 22
T17 Joe Ginsberg 1959 21 21
T17 Jody Davis 1983 21 21
T17 Jesse Gonder 1964 21 21
T17 John Bateman 1966 21 21
T17 Fran Healy 1974 21 21
T17 Gus Triandos 1961 21 21
T17 Chad Kreuter 1989 21 21
T17 Lance Parrish 1979 21 21
T25 Phil Nevin 1998 20 20
T25 Bill Freehan 1965 20 20
T25 Ellie Rodriguez 1974 20 20
T25 Geno Petralli 1988 20 20
T25 Dick Dietz 1971 20 20
T25 Luis Pujols 1982 20 20
T25 Geno Petralli 1990 20 20
T25 Don Slaught 1987 20 20
T33 Ed Herrmann 1969 19 19
T33 Lance Parrish 1991 19 19
T33 Bob Boone 1973 19 19
T33 Mark Bailey 1985 19 19
T37 Earl Battey 1960 18 18
T37 Tim McCarver 1965 18 18
T37 Ted Simmons 1971 18 18
T37 Milt May 1975 18 18
T37 Harry Chiti 1958 18 18
T37 Tim McCarver 1971 18 18
T37 Jorge Posada 2001 18 18
T37 Ed Herrmann 1972 18 18
T37 Joe Ferguson 1973 18 18
T37 Mike Stanley 1996 18 18
T37 Mike Stanley 1987 18 18
T37 Jason Varitek 1998 18 18
T37 Johnny Bench 1968 18 18
T37 Brian Harper 1993 18 18
T37 Donnie Scott 1984 18 18

Kc61
09-14-2002, 07:38 AM
20 passed balls, over 110 strikeouts, less than 30 walks. Terrible stats.

If Larue's only problem was the passed balls I might live with him at catcher. He got several catching the knuckleball and, if he could hit, I might live with this. But his only real attribute is his throwing arm and the Reds' lineup needs a stronger catcher. Other than pitching, getting a new starting catcher is the number one offseason priority in my view. Unless the Reds decide that Miller can be a starter I think they really need to acquire a new catcher.

J-Rod
09-14-2002, 09:45 AM
Rangers are gonna be in desperate need of a backstop once "Pudge" is wearing Bench RED!

RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2002, 09:50 AM
Larue doesn't have a lot of trade value, and would probably be a throw in on any trade. The Reds need a catcher. I would not even be opposed to a guy like Joe Girardi, who can handle and stabalize a pitching staff and give you a clutch hit from time to time. Whoever they might go after, I would hope it would be someone who can handle a pitching staff and call a good game. And, of course, catch the baseball.:rolleyes:

Krusty
09-14-2002, 09:51 AM
Rodriguez has too many miles on him at age 31. He is in a similar stage as Bench was in his career. The knees were starting to bother him and the Reds ended up moving him to 3rd base, which was worse yet.

Montreal has two fine catchers in Marty Barrett and the left-handed swinging Schenider. If the Reds could get either one along with a pitcher like Tony Armas, that would be a good deal.

J-Rod
09-14-2002, 09:56 AM
Krusty,

I think "Pudge" stats at 31 are Monstorous compared to Bench.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/alltime/playercard?playerId=881


http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=4680

Plus, Johnny rapidly declined in 1976 at age 29.......

Then bouced back with a 30 homer campaign in 1977.

Ivan Rodriguez, would make this lineup better in the 2 hole behind Larkin and in from of Griffey.

He will hit .300+30+100+ score 100+ smack 30-45 doubles, and win a gold glove.

Krusty
09-14-2002, 10:04 AM
What you are saying about Rodriguez is the Rodriguez in the past. The injuries are starting to catch up with him after catching all those innings over the years. What he will ask for as a free agent and the risk involved isn't worth the Reds to pursue given their tight budget and the need for starting pitching.

RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2002, 10:34 AM
The Reds can't afford Rodriguez anyway.

Krusty
09-14-2002, 11:42 AM
Considering the Reds catchers bat eighth in the lineup, I can live with their weak bats. Just give us solid defense baby. With LaRue, he has killed us defensively this season more ways than one.

scubba steve
09-14-2002, 11:52 AM
LaRue is a backup on most of the other MLB rosters. But, for some reason, LaRue is starting over Miller, even Stinnet for that fact. Like Krusty says, I just want a good defensive catcher, that can bat .250. LaRue is certainly NOT that.

westofyou
09-14-2002, 12:13 PM
Then bouced back with a 30 homer campaign in 1977.


Don't forget to add that he never had more than 465 AB's in a season after that too... or that he was 29 in 1977 and that he never had more than 20 2b's after 77 or that he only had more than 120 hits once in his last 6 years.

All because he by the age of 30 he had caught 1600 games.

Ivan = Pass and that doesn't include the fact that he doesn't fit in our "budget'.

Just like Rolen and Sosa and Maddox and Castillo and every other high priced FA vet.

Kc61
09-14-2002, 12:19 PM
Krusty, I really disagree with you on this one. As Larkin gets older, with the prospect of a weaker hitting shortstop, we should have a catcher who can hold his own hitting 7th or maybe even 6th in the lineup. Upgrading Larue does not only mean less passed balls. It means a decent offensive player.

Larue's strikeouts to walks ratio is a disgrace. He is toast against a breaking pitch low and outside. If you go with a receiver who can't hit, the bottom of the order becomes an easy target. I know a middle of the order catcher is hard to get, but a solid .260 guy with some strike zone judgment is necessary.

Somebody suggested a deal with Montreal. Looks like the Reds may match up well with them.

PuffyPig
09-14-2002, 12:19 PM
Larue has trade value. He's the best catcher in baseball at throwing out basestealers. He's, at worst, an average hitting catcher. He's got some power, and drives in runs. He's a bit of a clutch hitter. His PB's are abysmal, but if 10 is average(?), and considering a number came with Fernandez, is 20 really costing us so much? Certainly not enough to say he has no trade value. We will not get Rodriquez. It would be a ridiculous signing for a small market team.

Kc61
09-14-2002, 12:36 PM
He is worse than an average hitting catcher. Of 16 major league catchers who caught 100 games or more, only 3 have lower batting averages than Larue. The only one who struck out more than Larue is Posada who also has 93 RBIs.

Of all major league players, Larue is number 32 in strikeouts (with 113). He is number 231 in walks (with 25).

He seems like a hard worker and has a great arm. But he has to be the number one regular player to depart this off season or to become a full-time backup.

J-Rod
09-14-2002, 12:46 PM
.250-12-50 (projected)

50% BSC

are not bad numbers for a starting catcher.
He does let by some passed balls, but to say he is nothing more than a backup is inacurate.

RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2002, 12:57 PM
You can have those #'s. Larue has not progressed as a hitter or receiver. When do you draw the line? He's had ample opportunity.

PuffyPig
09-14-2002, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Kc61
He is worse than an average hitting catcher. Of 16 major league catchers who caught 100 games or more, only 3 have lower batting averages than Larue.


Or, you could say that Larue is 13th in hitting with catchers with 100 or more games. Of 32 teams. If a catcher hasn't caught 100 games, he ain't a regular. 13th out of 32. Seems above average to me. Only 16 catchers are deemed worthy to be called regulars. We're lucky we have one. Oh, by the way, Larue is 5th in the NL in HR's for a catcher. He's also 5th in RBI's. There are only 3 catchers in the NL with more HR's and RBI's than Larue, and one, Liberthal, has only 1 more RBI. He has a better OPS than Kendall and Deluca, two cathers who are considered good hitting catchers. The only catcher in the NL who has generated more RBI's per AB (at least 300 AB's) is Mike Piazza. Comparing his stats to all baseball players in ranking his ability as a catcher is misleading, as most catcher's stats stink. I've changed my mind, Larue is not an average hitting cather. He's above average.

RANDY IN INDY
09-14-2002, 07:09 PM
:lol:

letsgojunior
09-14-2002, 07:30 PM
32 teams? Did I miss another expansion? Aren't there 30 teams?:confused:

Kc61
09-14-2002, 08:55 PM
Puffy left out some stats on Larue. The one that catches my eye is Jason's strikeout to walk ratio. According to ESPN, there are a few major league catchers with better strikeout/walk ratios than Jason -- say 72 of them. 73rd in this category is not pretty. And it is well below average.

I compared him earlier to 100 game catchers because, for some reason that escapes me, the Reds have treated him as belonging in that category. His .247 is among the lowest in that group. He probably fares better when compared to the part-timers.

Larue as a back up or part timer is okay. As an everyday starter is unacceptable. The Reds need to get somebody else.

PuffyPig
09-15-2002, 10:28 AM
You can look at any stat you want, but I would bet that OPS and RBI's are considered more important than Walk to SO ratio. You really fail to consider the fact that catchers historically (and specifically now) aren't great hitters. If you drive in runs (and Larue drives in runs better than any regular NL catcher except Piazza) you must be doing something right. I'll take a run producer anytime. I'm not suggesting that he is Barry Bonds. But he's not the Juan Castro you portray. There are only a handful of regular catchers in the NL who outhit him. I'm not interested in stats of all major leaguers, just catchers. And saying he can't hit because of his walk/SO ratio is ridiculous at the expense of ignoring his power and RBI stats, which are above average for regular, NL catchers. You say I left out some stats. I certainty did not leave out any important ones. Can you say the same??

RANDY IN INDY
09-15-2002, 10:39 AM
Catchers, historically, better be darn good defensively if they don't hit. Unfortunately, there are more than "a handful of regular catchers in the NL" who can "outcatch" him. I don't see a whole lot of stats or reasons that substantiate keeping Larue as an everyday catcher.

Raisor
09-15-2002, 10:40 AM
The AVERAGE Major League catcher has an OPS of .695 this season, LaRue has a .722 OPS.

He's above average.

PSR

Raisor
09-15-2002, 11:02 AM
More on LaRue's offense.

There are 35 ML catchers that have 200+ At Bats in 2002. LaRue is the 12th best, with a .728 OPS (as a catcher).

He's the 8th best NL catcher.

Someone mentioned wanting Joe Girardi. Well, he's got a 0.554 OPS, and is 34th of 35 in OPS.

PSR

Kc61
09-15-2002, 11:41 AM
I'm about to give up on statistical dueling here. Larue strikes out about once in every three plate appearances. Even Adam Dunn is about one in four. Larue almost never walks. When any batter makes contact so infrequently, he is a huge detriment. It may be acceptable when the guy hits 25 home runs. But a major league hitter (non-pitcher) has to make contact.

Larue is not the man for the Reds.

westofyou
09-15-2002, 12:10 PM
Here's what you can expect from a catcher as far as hitting goes based on ALL MLB catchers since 1990




YEAR AVG SLG OBA OPS
1990 .251 .368 .320 .687
1991 .245 .360 .304 .664
1992 .243 .361 .308 .669
1993 .255 .396 .319 .714
1994 .254 .404 .323 .727
1995 .255 .396 .323 .719
1996 .259 .408 .325 .733
1997 .263 .408 .328 .737
1998 .255 .396 .319 .715
1999 .263 .411 .329 .740
2000 .265 .422 .339 .762
2001 .250 .393 .312 .705
TOT .255 .394 .321 .715

PuffyPig
09-15-2002, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Kc61
I'm about to give up on statistical dueling here. Larue strikes out about once in every three plate appearances. Even Adam Dunn is about one in four. Larue almost never walks. When any batter makes contact so infrequently, he is a huge detriment. It may be acceptable when the guy hits 25 home runs. But a major league hitter (non-pitcher) has to make contact.

Larue is not the man for the Reds.

I can see why you're giving up, you're fighting a losing battle. All you can keep saying in your defence is Larue strikes out at an alarming pace. It's true. But I'm more concerned about overall performance. SO's for batters are very much overrated. Larue does not ground into excessive DP's. He's not an elite hitter. So what?? He's a better than average hitting catcher. He's an elite thrower as a catcher, the best in the majors. He's below average at fielding his position and calling a game. But if you had to rate the Reds players this year based on expectations, Kearns and Walker would be above average, Larue and Boone would be average, and Casey, Larkin, Dunn, Griffey would be below expectations. I'm not so sure why Larue should get blamed for giving us what we expected...a slightly above average year for a catcher. Can we do better?? I doubt we can unless we take $$$ from we we need it the most...pitching. I can assure you that the Reds management aren't thinking that catching is a huge hole to fill. And I doubt that Larue will be traded unless another frontline catcher has been, or will be, obtained. Miller and Stinnett are not the answer. Unless the question is "The thought of what catching duo makes you want to puke?"

RANDY IN INDY
09-15-2002, 12:40 PM
You can spend all the money in the world on pitching, but if you don't have a guy that has a clue behind the plate to catch(????) it, you'll probably be in trouble.

I really thought that Larue was going to be a good catcher for the Reds. I thought that he would mature as a receiver and hitter, but I just don't see it happening. Based on what I see the majority of the time from Larue, I can't see any improvement whatsoever in either area. Add that with his propensity for melting down in crucial situations, and I don't know how anyone can say that his performance is acceptable. I don't think that the Reds pitchers have a whole lot of confidence in Larue, and I think it negatively affects the pitching staff.

I could probably live with Larue's hitting (with minor improvement year to year) if he was a good defensive catcher who handled the pitching staff and called a good game. He does none of those things. I would not, however, begin to think about calling him a "good hitter" because he simply is not. I think that there has to be better options for the Reds behind the plate at this point. For starters, Corky Miller. I have just seen enough of Larue's incompetence.

Kc61
09-15-2002, 01:59 PM
I don't think I'm fighting a losing battle on the stats, just tired of going back and forth between this cite and ESPN. I do not believe Larue will be the catcher for this team next year. I think a more fundamentally sound offensive and defensive catcher will be acquired. The Reds have 4 catchers on the 40 man roster and none appears to be the answer. Maybe Corky Miller makes sense to split time with a new guy.

mahanace
09-15-2002, 02:36 PM
People here keep saying LaRue doesn't call a good game, so let me ask, what is involved in calling a good game?

I doubt LaRue is "calling" for a hanging curveball, or calling for the pitchers to fall behind 2-0.

It seems to me with the pitching staff the Reds have, one could "call" the perfect game but the pitchers wouldn't be able to make the pitches.

RANDY IN INDY
09-15-2002, 02:42 PM
From everything I've seen, the Reds dugout calls the game. I, personally, think a catcher should be able to call a game. With Larue, I don't think they want to burden him with calling the game. I think they just want him to concentrate on catching the ball.

Krusty
09-16-2002, 08:40 AM
If LaRue had a good bat, we probably might have tolerated his passed balls deficiency. But, his overall game is nothing to brag about and he has been in Bob Boone's doghouse all season. If he comes back next season, I'll be shocked.

Raisor
09-16-2002, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Krusty
If LaRue had a good bat, we probably might have tolerated his passed balls deficiency. But, his overall game is nothing to brag about and he has been in Bob Boone's doghouse all season. If he comes back next season, I'll be shocked.


Krusty, what would a "good bat" be for a catcher? We've already shown that the AVERAGE catcher has a sub .700 OPS, and that LaRue is at about .720.

PSR

RANDY IN INDY
09-16-2002, 11:06 AM
I would have a hard time calling Larue's bat good, regardless of all the stats you dig up. He simply is not a good hitter. You don't need stats to see that. Just watch a ballgame instead of the stat sheet. Undisciplined, with holes as big as the grand canyon.

Raisor
09-16-2002, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
I would have a hard time calling Larue's bat good, regardless of all the stats you dig up. He simply is not a good hitter. You don't need stats to see that. Just watch a ballgame instead of the stat sheet. Undisciplined, with holes as big as the grand canyon.

Oh lord, here we go again.

Forget about actual performance, and focus on how a guy "looks."

LaRue has been the 12th best hitting catcher in the majors in 2002. So what if he "looks" like the 25th best?

Would I rather have I-Rod or Piazza? Hell yes. But I'll TAKE an above average hitting catcher over a below average hitting catcher in a pinch.

The Reds have a LOT more pressing needs then upgrading at catcher.

PSR

RANDY IN INDY
09-16-2002, 11:44 AM
Raisor,

You are actually saying that Jason Larue is a good hitter? Again, you can rummage through all the statistics that you can find, and you can lay them out on the table any pretty way that you can think of, but based on what I see from Jason Larue on a regular basis, I will not agree that he is a good hitter in any way shape or form. He is a pretty easy out on a regular basis for most of the pitchers in the National League. There are times when Jimmy Haynes is pitching that I would rather see Haynes walking to the plate than Larue.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. You can call Jason Larue a good hitter from here on out, and I won't call you on it. I pretty much know how you feel, and you know how I feel. Based on Jason Larue, today, September 16, 2002, I just can't agree with you. As an everyday player, he is not a good hitter. Many, here on the forum, will probably disagree with me. Enough said. I'm out on this one. I've beaten it to death.:hat:

Raisor
09-16-2002, 11:50 AM
Is LaRue a good hitter? It depends on who you compare him to.

Compared to the firstbasemen in the league, absolutly not. Compared to any other postion player? Absolutly not. Compared to the other catchers in the league? Absolutly, and since he is a catcher, that's who you have to compare him to.

PSR

letsgojunior
09-16-2002, 12:19 PM
To me this is like looking at a bad car and pointing towards the spare tire as the problem rather than the engine. Granted, Larue's defense (specifically PB's) are a problem, but he is not one of the top 5 cogs of the offense even. If Griffey stays healthy, Dunn and Kearns keep improving, Casey gets back to some semblance of '99 form, and Boone goes 25-100, all Larue has to do is turn in a .700ish OPS and this team is fine. As a Reds fan you want to see Jason improve a little more but he is not the major problem. The top 5 guys being absent due to injury or underachieving is a much, much bigger problem.

Reds1
09-16-2002, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig
Larue has trade value. He's the best catcher in baseball at throwing out basestealers. He's, at worst, an average hitting catcher. He's got some power, and drives in runs. He's a bit of a clutch hitter. His PB's are abysmal, but if 10 is average(?), and considering a number came with Fernandez, is 20 really costing us so much? Certainly not enough to say he has no trade value. We will not get Rodriquez. It would be a ridiculous signing for a small market team.

This is so close to what I was thinking I had to copy it and say it. :D

PuffyPig
09-16-2002, 01:09 PM
It amazes me how this thread started out as whether or not Larue was a "below average hitter for a catcher", and when proven wrong, it's changed to whether or not he "was below average hitter". Of course he is, as almost all catchers are. Even Jason Kandall and Deluca, 2 of the better hitting catchers around, hit less than Larue this year. For posters who say that Larue does not deserve to be on a major league roster, or who would rather see Haynes hit, I'm just glad you're not running the Reds. Haynes has a lifetime OPS of .353. It's .401 this year. He makes Castro look like God. And you want to see him hit??

Reds1
09-16-2002, 01:24 PM
I think LaRue is like Reggie Taylor. Both have holes in their swing and seem to be searching on what works best for them. I think having Dunn and Kearns come up together gives all Reds fans that feeling that all players should hit like them. I've seen many bash Larkin for his year, but he has a career high in doubles and is great in the field. Dunn who was the most love Red has shown he is human! Kearns has also been streaky. LaRue has had some big hits and has some power. He also has a great arm. Look at the catchers around the league - it's just not a position of offense. Not many Piazza, Pudge types of the world.
He has trade value, but he probably needs to be the back up and spot starter in Cincy. We can't afford Stinnett at over 1 million so lets have a couple decent catchers with some pop. No he probably won't ever carry this team for more then a couple games, but a few game winning HRs will occur. He certainly should not be put in the same conversation as Castro!

Kc61
09-16-2002, 02:01 PM
Larue is a below average hitting catcher. With one qualification. He is probably average or better compared to the part time catchers that play for a number of teams. Compare him to the true starting catchers and he is below average.

Only about half the teams in the major leagues (or fewer) have a true starting catcher. The Reds need to become one.

PuffyPig
09-16-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Kc61
Larue is a below average hitting catcher. With one qualification. He is probably average or better compared to the part time catchers that play for a number of teams. Compare him to the true starting catchers and he is below average.

Only about half the teams in the major leagues (or fewer) have a true starting catcher. The Reds need to become one.

Now that might be the most convoluted logic I've seen in some time. Since only about 15 out of 30 teams have "real' starting catchers, Larue might rank 12 out of those 15 so is below average. The fact that the other 15 teams don't even have someone they can call a regular (presumably someone worse than Larue) should be ignored. Yeah right. Whatever you're trying to sell here, I'm not buying.

Reds1
09-16-2002, 02:43 PM
Gosh! After all this awesome research we are coming up with LaRue is looking like a pretty darn good Catcher. If you take into consideration his salary it might make him more valuable. :D

Kc61
09-16-2002, 10:50 PM
The logic is not convoluted. Larue, as compared with other regular catchers, starting guys, catchers who play most of the time, catchers who have caught 100 or more games, is well below average offensively. He belongs with the group of catchers who are not regulars, who play part time, who share the position.

Presumably this is clear. If he is to play 115 -120 games (as he will this year) he has to be a better catcher defensively and he needs to make contact much more.

Either he needs to improve a lot or the Reds need to get a fundamentally sound catcher defensively who makes contact at bat. I expect them to try to upgrade the position in the offseason.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2002, 01:29 AM
There are 21 catchers in the major leagues who are -at least- in a platoon situation, if not in a starting situation, who have better rate stats than LaRue.

LaRue has created 4.04 runs per 27 outs. True, that is about average for a catcher. But you have to remember that this "average" figure is artificially low due to the presence of several no-hit starting catchers who are excellent game callers and defensive catchers (e.g. Brad Ausmus, Mike Matheny).

I could tolerate LaRue being a middle-of-the-pack hitter if he would bother to throw his lazy butt in front of a ball in the dirt every so often.

For the record, here are all the major league catchers, who have created at least 20 runs in the catcher position, and have also created at least 4 runs per 27 outs:

Rk----------NAME-------------------RC27------RC
6 T. Pratt, Phi 10.15 24.8
10 I. Rodriguez, Tex 7.09 65.4
11 J. Posada, NYY 6.33 81.3
12 M. Redmond, Fla 6.33 38.7
13 M. Piazza, NYM 5.98 71.5
16 M. Lieberthal, Phi 5.47 68.3
17 M. Barrett, Mon 5.18 51
18 A. Pierzynski, Min 5.09 56.1
19 D. Wilson, Sea 4.92 45.9
20 B. Schneider, Mon 4.89 25.9
22 T. Hundley, ChC 4.68 32.6
23 B. Davis, Sea 4.66 26.1
27 T. Wilson, Tor 4.57 23
29 D. Miller, Ari 4.55 37.9
30 A. Hinch, KC 4.47 23
32 R. Machado, Mil/ChC 4.46 24.6
33 P. Lo Duca, LA 4.41 62.2
34 J. Varitek, Bos 4.4 53.9
35 J. Kendall, Pit 4.35 62.4
37 B. Santiago, SF 4.32 55.6
38 T. Lampkin, SD 4.11 31.7
40 J. LaRue, Cin 4.04 40.7


Here are some guys who failed to create 4 runs per 27 outs thus far

42 S. Alomar Jr., CWS/Col 3.83 28.4
46 J. Flaherty, TB 3.66 29.5
50 C. Johnson, Fla 3.56 25.7
53 M. Matheny, StL 3.4 29.1
54 R. Hernandez, Oak 3.39 37.9
55 P. Bako, Mil 3.39 21.1
57 B. Ausmus, Hou 3.29 41.4
59 G. Bennett, Col 3.24 25.4
60 B. Mayne, KC 3.19 28.8
61 G. Gil, Bal 3.1 36.3
62 J. Lopez, Atl 3.07 29
63 M. Johnson, CWS 3.06 22.7
65 T. Hall, TB 2.94 25.4
68 B. Inge, Det 2.79 25.3
69 B. Molina, Ana 2.75 32.2
74 K. Huckaby, Tor 2.47 17.4
49 M. DiFelice, StL 3.59 16.6
24 B. Estalella, Col 4.66 16.4
43 V. Wilson, NYM 3.8 16.2
58 W. Gonzalez, SD 3.27 16
75 H. Blanco, Atl 2.43 16
44 Y. Torrealba, SF 3.74 14.4
71 B. Haselman, Tex 2.72 14.2
48 T. Prince, Min 3.63 14
67 G. Zaun, Hou 2.93 13
41 C. Miller, Cin 3.84 12.8
64 D. Mirabelli, Bos 3.01 11.6
72 R. Barajas, Ari 2.55 10.7
73 B. Fordyce, Bal 2.55 9.7
56 J. Paul, CWS 3.33 9.5

Steve4192
09-17-2002, 09:40 AM
If you really want to determine the trade value of these guys, divide their RC numbers by their salaries.

Mediocre numbers + low salary = trade value.

That is why Larue has trade value, not because he is a great hitter or receiver. Laure is producing at about the same rate or outproducing guys like Jason Kendall, Charles Johnson, Sandy Alomar and Javy Lopez, while making only 3%-5% as much money as those guys.

There are a number of teams who would LOVE to have Jason Larue because he is better AND cheaper than any of their other available options.

JaxRed
09-17-2002, 09:52 AM
However he'll probably be arb eligible this yearwhich starts reducing his "cheapness"

Steve4192
09-17-2002, 10:24 AM
That is true. That is also whyI suspect the Reds will look to move him.

However, I don't think his salary will explode via arbitration because of the way the system is set up.

The average raise in arbitration is about $900M, with first year eligibles getting less than that. I would suspect catchers only get about half of that due to their generally lower salaries/stats and the lack of great young catchers to compare to between the 2 & 3 year service level. I'd be surprised if Larue exceeds $700M in arbitration, and I expect something in the $600M range.

Considering the new CBA boosted the minimum salary to $300M, $600M is still pretty darn cheap.

cincinnati chili
09-17-2002, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Steve4192
That is true. That is also whyI suspect the Reds will look to move him.

However, I don't think his salary will explode via arbitration because of the way the system is set up.

The average raise in arbitration is about $900M, with first year eligibles getting less than that. I would suspect catchers only get about half of that due to their generally lower salaries/stats and the lack of great young catchers to compare to between the 2 & 3 year service level. I'd be surprised if Larue exceeds $700M in arbitration, and I expect something in the $600M range.

Considering the new CBA boosted the minimum salary to $300M, $600M is still pretty darn cheap.

This post is well thought out, and the cost-for-production argument is fair. However, I disagree about LaRue getting only $700K in arbitration.

Two years ago, Scott Hatteberg was a first time eligible catcher for the Red Sox and the two sides split the difference at around $1 million. Hatteberg, while a better hitter than LaRue IMHO, was not a full-time player and didn't have "counting stats" that were quite as good (homers, caught runners %). I think LaRue will get in the 1.5 mil. range.

I agree that I'd rather have LaRue for his present salary than Todd Hundley for gazillions. But I just think LaRue is a waste of the Reds time. He seems to lack either the ability or inclination to improve his plate discipline skills or his game as a backstop.

Steve4192
09-17-2002, 11:55 AM
Chili, I was taking a best guess in regards to Larue's arbitration reward. Since you actually did some research I'll defer to you on that point.

If that is the market range for a 1st year eligible catcher, I can almost guarantee the Reds will trade him. Boone hates his approach behind the plate, the team already has a $1MM catcher in Stinnett, and there is a viable alternative already in the system in Miller.

Been nice knowing you Jason.

Reds1
09-17-2002, 09:12 PM
Another HR by LaRue. Not that I think he is awesome or the future of the Reds, but it just seems that since he changed his stance he has put up some decent numbers. Anyone figure that out. How about how has he done the 2nd half of the season. Better then Dunn I bet.......;)

cincinnati chili
09-17-2002, 09:44 PM
You're right Reds1. As much as I've criticized LaRue, he's definitely been a much better hitter since the break.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?statsId=6252

I'm skeptical this will continue. Once a hacker, always a hacker. But if I'm wrong, I'll certainly take a .500 slugging percentage from the catching position.