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RedSchmo
08-31-2002, 09:53 PM
Alright, this season is coming to a resounding thud of an end for the Reds. I know there are several Bob Boone supporters on this board.

Rather than me ranting (again) about Boone being a terrible manager, what I want the Boone-backers to post is this - your argument for Boone is a good Manager. Please include any (and I mean any) hard evidence (use facts if you can) that says he is a good manager.

Hard evidence??? - What do I mean?

Here are two reasons I've read on this board before that are NOT hard evidence -

1) "This years team is better than most people thought they would be" is not hard evidence. The words "most" and "thought" make that a very vague statement. So please do not use that one - I've heard it too many times.

2) "The players like Bob Boone and support him as the manager" is also not evidence of him being a good manager. I'll bet most of the players also like Jennifer Love Hewitt, but she couldn't manage a baseball team (insert your joke here). Plus, what someone says publicly about their boss is normally not considered real credible. If you have talked to most of the Reds players personally about Bob Boone in 1-1 conversations, and this is what they told you, then use it if you want to support your stance.

Thanks in advance for your response... and good luck!!!

guernsey
08-31-2002, 09:59 PM
He hasn't killed anyone yet - that we know of.

Wheelhouse
08-31-2002, 10:01 PM
He provides more managerial moves per dollar paid than any other manager in history. A true value.

red-in-la
08-31-2002, 10:37 PM
If Bob hadn't taken the salary, one of us would have had to manage this team, because nobody else who ever accomplished anything in baseball would take it.

Krusty
08-31-2002, 10:53 PM
And judging how this team has quit, he should be fired, but we know that won't happen.

syncope
08-31-2002, 11:06 PM
I like the way Bob Boone says "points" instead of runs.

He's such an intellectual.

Johnny Vander m
08-31-2002, 11:51 PM
Aaron's bimbo may refuse to marry him if his dad is not a manager.

Red Ball Express
09-01-2002, 12:33 AM
I was listening to the game thursday, and they featured one of those "On this day in Reds' history... " deals.

On That chosen date in Reds' history, Pete Rose scored what would be the deciding run in a Reds' victory by scoring from SECOND! base on a passed ball charged to Bob Boone.

Several times since the great putz joined the Reds, I have heard him dis Pete as a selfish player.

Pete was not only a player in a league Boone coudn't even see, but a better manager as well.

BTW, I've never heard Pete Rose dis Bob Boone. I wonder if he even remembers him.

WVRedsFan
09-01-2002, 12:53 AM
[B]Several times since the great putz joined the Reds, I have heard him dis Pete as a selfish player.

Pete was not only a player in a league Boone coudn't even see, but a better manager as well.

BTW, I've never heard Pete Rose dis Bob Boone. I wonder if he even remembers him.[B/]

That's it!!! Off with Bob Boone's head!!!!

NDRed
09-01-2002, 01:21 AM
Red Ball Express:

Can you provide any links to said disses of Pete by Bob.

Thanks

Red Ball Express
09-01-2002, 01:42 AM
ND,

I'm sorry I can't link you to any documented evidence of the remarks of Bob Boone regarding Pete's alleged selfishness as a player, but you may rest assured they are on the record somewhere.

Check old Cinti Enquirer stories dating to last spring training. Boone was quoted as saying - in response to criticisms of Jr. Griffey's alleged selfisness - that... 'Pete Rose was the most selfish guy I ever played with'...


Hard to link something I read off of actual tree pulp!

NDRed
09-01-2002, 02:31 AM
I apologize but I read the Enquirer, Post, and this board just about everyday and I cannot remmeber any such reference. Anybody else? You would think our current manager dissing the greatest player in Reds history would be memorable??????

malcontent
09-01-2002, 02:40 AM
He said "yes" before Oester could take back "no".

I know that that doesn't make him a good manager, but I'm forever grateful.

Red Ball Express
09-01-2002, 02:50 AM
Boone certainly made those comments, and if no-one on this board of individuals who could statistically document Whitey Wiedleman's bowel movements cares to back me up on it, I will personally provide a referrence in due time.

But, in the meantime, let me ask you this: Why would someone invent stupidity on behalf of a subject so rich in its natural production?

REDJAKE
09-01-2002, 11:34 AM
How can anyone complain YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!

Red Thunder
09-01-2002, 11:59 AM
:rolleyes:

The Reds lose and the Bob Boone "bashing" continues?!

Shouldn't we rather blame the players, like Reitsma, Moehler, Hamilton, Rijo, Chen, Larkin, Casey, LaRue and others instead of making it easy and putting all the blame on only the manager? It's still the Reds players who don't get the job done on the field.

What makes a good manager? Good question ... but can someone really give the "right" answer for that? Was Jim Leyland during all the Pirates' losing seasons not a good manager? Can success solely be judged by the winning record, disregarding a low payroll, what kind of players the GM gets you, which injuries occur, which players have bad seasons, etc. etc. And what about Don Gullet? Is he a bad pitching coach because Reitsma, Hamilton, Rijo, Chen and Sullivan struggle? Or where is the difference?

Was Sparky Anderson such a bad manager during his days with the Tigers? Or had he just a weak team to manage?

Most of the Boone criticism which I read here is pure second guessing. Wow! After a certain pinch hitter struck out in a close game I could as well easily say: "Hell, why didn't he leave the starting pitcher in instead" or "Why didn't he pinch hit so and so for him". Best example is Reggie Taylor. A lot of posters were against him from the day he was acquired for Hector Mercado. We have enough outfielders, he will struggle ... and so on.

Now that Reggie has a very good season for the Reds (I think he is currently even among the top five reserve outfielders in the game) all the critics have sudenly silenced. No admittance from someone who blasted Reggie earlier, that he was wrong. I still remember the grand slam Taylor hit or other crucial pinch hits where he won games for the Reds. And this only because Boone knew how valuable he can be to the team and because Bob Boone put him in the lineup when few of the fans here would have.

As for there constand lineup shuffeling by Boone. Bob Brenly, the Diamondbacks Manager, does the same and his team isn't hurt one bit by it. So why should this have a negative effect? Why is Boone a micromanager for doing this and Brenly a great manager because of it?

What I like about Bob Boone:

- He is an intelligent baseball mind (I know that this makes some fans jealous)
- He has the respect of the players (which is imo very important!)
- He gives young players a chance
- He is carefull with his pitchers, not overusing them
- He doesn't see the game through rose colored glasses. Asked why Stinnett starts more and more instead of LaRue he tells it like it is.
- He surrounds himself with good baseball people (Lefebvre, Knight), not afraid, that they could take his position.
- He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover
- He makes good use of the running game.
- And yes, he just loves and wants to manage no matter if he is underpaid for it.


I know that most people who don't like Bob Boone will not listen to any arguments for him anyway, so I will just leave it at that. I think he has done a solid job so far for the Reds and I am very happy to see him back next year.

Red Thunder
09-01-2002, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by REDJAKE
How can anyone complain YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!


Judging people after what they are paid is really sad, if not dumb!

Greenhills Pioneer
09-01-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Red Thunder
:rolleyes:


- He gives young players a chance
- He is carefull with his pitchers, not overusing them
- He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover.

Isn't Mateo an example of a young player he hasn't given a chance to?

Hasn't he overused the bullpen? He is only careful with starters. Isn't that why the Reds are near/at the bottom of IP/GS in all baseball? Is there a starter on the team who averages at least 6 innings per start?

Is letting your son go half the season barely hitting .200 qualify as letting players go through slumps? What does "they belong to the game" mean?

REDJAKE
09-01-2002, 03:07 PM
To Red Thunder I judged Boone before he ever managed a game for us.He had a history if you paid any attention and it was terrible bafore he ever came here.I'm not saying he may not be useful but please not a mgr.Come to think of it he may be the best bullpen coach of all time lets put him down there and bring Hume into the dugout.GO CINCY03!!!!!

syncope
09-01-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Greenhills Pioneer


Isn't Mateo an example of a young player he hasn't given a chance to?

Hasn't he overused the bullpen? He is only careful with starters. Isn't that why the Reds are near/at the bottom of IP/GS in all baseball? Is there a starter on the team who averages at least 6 innings per start?

Is letting your son go half the season barely hitting .200 qualify as letting players go through slumps? What does "they belong to the game" mean?


Remember now, benching Aaron would have been a sign of nepotism.
:rolleyes:

SteelSD
09-01-2002, 05:31 PM
Now that Reggie has a very good season for the Reds (I think he is currently even among the top five reserve outfielders in the game) all the critics have sudenly silenced. No admittance from someone who blasted Reggie earlier, that he was wrong. I still remember the grand slam Taylor hit or other crucial pinch hits where he won games for the Reds. And this only because Boone knew how valuable he can be to the team and because Bob Boone put him in the lineup when few of the fans here would have.

I'm gonna clue you in on something- over the course of a MLB season, lesser players will- at times- step up to win games. Let's take a look at Taylor's stats: .269BA/.291OBP, 7CS in 18 SB attempts.

Those are the stats of a "top five reserve outfielder"??? Taylor is a guy who swings at everything- and at times makes contact. Other than his power numbers (.472SLG), Taylor's hitting game is well below average. You won't hear anyone admit they were "wrong" because no one has been as to Taylor's lack of certain skills.


- He is an intelligent baseball mind (I know that this makes some fans jealous)

The only thing I'm jealous of is that Boone can continue to collect a paycheck while being bad at his job.


- He has the respect of the players (which is imo very important!)

You chastize others for "second-guessing" while you use pure speculation in an effort to defend Boone. You have no idea if the players respect him or not. In fact, I don't know of many professionals that will garner a lot of respect by very publicly pointing fingers at players. Boone has done this (most recently with Larue) a number of times.


- He gives young players a chance

Huh? Other than Taylor, what young players has Boone given a "chance"? Dunn and Kearns? A manager doesn't get credit for no-brainers. And he sure doesn't get credit for putting Reggie Taylor in the lineup. Ick.


- He doesn't see the game through rose colored glasses. Asked why Stinnett starts more and more instead of LaRue he tells it like it is.

Ironically, by looking at the lineups and in-game moves, I'd rather doubt that Boone has any comprehension of "how it is".


- He surrounds himself with good baseball people (Lefebvre, Knight), not afraid, that they could take his position.

Looking at the results, the only two "good baseball people" Boone has "surrounded" himself with are Gullett and Bowden- and that was by default. The were here before him, and I hope to God that they're here after he's gone.


- He lets players go through slumps because he knows they belong to the game and therefore gives players confidence and a chance to recover

Boone has no idea what to do when a player "slumps". Instead of moving a slumping player down in the order (ex.- A. Boone), he leaves him in prime RBI slots for three months. Boone's lineups are a roll of the dice- and none of it has panned out.


- He makes good use of the running game.

Calling for steals when down by five in the ninth inning is not making "good use of the running game". Continuing to give steal signs to Reggie Taylor (who gets caught 40% of the time) is not "good use of the running game".


- And yes, he just loves and wants to manage no matter if he is underpaid for it.

Underpaid??? Based on his performance, Boone is dramatically overpaid. If I were as bad at my job as he is his, I wouldn't have to worry about being "underpaid" because I wouldn't have the job anymore.


I know that most people who don't like Bob Boone will not listen to any arguments for him anyway, so I will just leave it at that.

That's mainly because Boone's performance really leaves no compelling arguements for him.

RedSchmo
09-01-2002, 06:18 PM
I am loving this thread so far, but I am a little disappointed only Red Thunder came to Boone's backing to any length so far. Red Thunder made several points in the defense, but few were "hard evidence" based in fact that I asked for in the original post. Most of them have been shot down by Boone-Bashers (thank you, my bretheren!).

So, Please Boone-Backers, where are you now? I want to see the evidence that Boone is a good manager.

I do have one thing to input into the argument at this point in response to Red Thunder.

Thunder you cited several managers (Leyland and Anderson included) who went through down years, but are considered great managers. The key here is that they had good years, and great years as well, besides the bad. Boone hasn't had a good year as a manager.

In business, we often hire people by this premise "past behavior (performance) is the best predictor of future behavior (performance)." Detroit hired Sparky based on that, and he led them to a championship. Boone has no past success as a manager... at all.

Lastly, I throw out a question to the Boone Backers to think about. What is the identity of this Reds team? In other words, what is the mark Boone has put on this team in two years? If someone said "you can tell that is a Bob Boone managed team...", what would that mean in any positive sense?

Boone-backers come out!!! Let's here you!

Red Thunder
09-01-2002, 06:36 PM
Mateo
He comes off a serious leg injury and was brought back slowly – nothing wrong with that in my opinion. I think that getting Ruben started again at AAA and especially getting him regular playing time there benefitted him much more than if he had sat on the Reds bench for most of the time. I see nothing wrong with that, actually it was a good move not to rush Mateo and instead go with Clark and Gonzales as extra outfielders/pinch hitters.

Aaron Boone
He is the managers son, but he is also the player with the most RBI and SB's on the team, second most HR's & Runs and third most doubles. Bob's strategy to keep the faith in his son clearly paid off, as he knew that the potential is there. Aaron also belongs to the highest paid players on the team which is another reason to let him play through a slump. To state that Bob wouldn’t have let another third baseman play through a slump is pure speculation and lacks any evidence.

Overusing the bullpen
I don’t think the bullpen is that badly overused. It just doesn’t perfom up to its expectations and this can not solely be blamed on their workload. In Sullivan’s case it seems that he has not been the same since being hit by a line drive. He has struggled ever since. White had hurt his foot, Graves is not your supercloser, Rijo has not much left anymore and Riedling and Williamson are brought back slowly and are not overworked. Willy even asked for more pitching time during one period where he felt that he could go more than just one inning per game.

On the other hand, what other option do you have rather to go to the bullpen when you know (and statistics prove it) that your starters no matter if they are named Dessens, Haynes or Reitsma are knocked around badly if they have to pitch longer than 6 innings? Is it Boone’s fault that they lack stamina and are exhausted when they reach the 90+ pitch count? Well, of course he could leave them in and accept a .300 or worse batting average by the opposition against his starters and just hope for the best … but as the goal is to win games, he does exactly what he is supposed to do, he takes the pitcher out when he becomes uneffective to prevent the oppostition from scoring more runs and to prevent that the starter hurts his arm. Good job by Boone and don't forget that he doesn't have a choice most of the time!

To Redjake
You should better decide what you want. When you state “you get what you pay for” why do you expect to see a winning Reds team? Or better, in this case Bob Boone wouldn’t even be factor in the Reds winning or losing games. Because with the Reds having the lowest payroll in the NL Central, shouldn’t they also be supposed to finish last in their division? After your logic they should. As you only get what you pay for then we all should be happy with our overachieving Reds.

And why was Boone terrible before he came here? Who says this? You? For your info; the Royals still suck and lose ... but I guess it must again be their manager (again) who prevents a good baseball team from winning, right?!

Or do you solely base your opinion of a manager's abilities on his won-lost record? Then again may I ask if you also thought that Sparky Anderson with the Tigers, Jim Leyland or also Lou Piniella (remember the horrible ’91 season?) were bad managers when they had losing teams? In my opinion managers don’t make that much of a difference when it comes to winning ballgames. It’s just so easy and convinient to put all the blame on them … and combined with the American hire & fire mentality you have in the Reds case 6 managers over the last 11 years, and from year to year not much really has changed. Piniella, Perez, Johnson, Knight, McKeon and Boone. Is it really the managers fault when things don’t go as they are expected? Or do maybe also have payroll limitations, injuries to players etc. have something to do with winning? As even Davey Johnson was apparently not good enough to manage the Reds despite all the success he had I really don’t know what you all expect from a manager. Lou Piniella had a very bad season in ’91 with the Reds after winning the World Series the year before. I wonder if this suddenly made him a bad manager in the eyes of some fans?

Red Thunder
09-01-2002, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by RedSchmo
Thunder you cited several managers (Leyland and Anderson included) who went through down years, but are considered great managers. The key here is that they had good years, and great years as well, besides the bad. Boone hasn't had a good year as a manager.



The difference between Boone and Anderson is, that Sparky was directly handed a great team by the Reds. He only had to let the Big Red Machine play ... the great players made all the difference as you can see when he later took over the Tigers. As I said, I don't think that a manager has that much effect on the outcome of the game. Other managers like Leyland or Bobby Cox also needed their time (and most important a good team) to get to the playoffs. Bob Boone hasn't yet managed long, so I find it unfair to label him as a bad manager solely based on the W-L record of the teams he managed so far.

I am also the last person to say he is the ultimate and best manager, but I just think that by criticising him over and over again some fans tend to lose out of sight a lot of the problems why the Reds have went from 11 games over to now 4 games under .500.

Red Thunder
09-01-2002, 07:19 PM
Reggie Taylor
.269 BA (Reds team average: .255)
4 triples
8 homeruns
11 stolen bases
in 197 at bats

Yes, these are good numbers for a 24th or 25th player on the roster. I don't expect more from a reserve outfielder, especially if he is not a veteran and plays for not much more than the minimum salary. From my knowledge there are few other 4th or 5th outfielders who can hit a homerun or triple at this rate or steal a base.


You chastize others for "second-guessing" while you use pure speculation in an effort to defend Boone. You have no idea if the players respect him or not.

No one who hasn't access to the Reds clubhouse will know for sure if Boone is respected or not. But according to reports from the media (articles in the Enquirer and the Post) and from Team Clark, Bob Boone is well or if you like it better seems to be well respected. And looking at LaRue's game and knowing that Bob was a catcher himself for several years I don't see anything wrong with him wanting to improve LaRue's catching skills. Everybody sees how Jason at times has problems at blocking pitches, so Boone doesn't really flame Jason when he just tells it like it is.



Huh? Other than Taylor, what young players has Boone given a "chance"? Dunn and Kearns? A manager doesn't get credit for no-brainers. And he sure doesn't get credit for putting Reggie Taylor in the lineup. Ick.

Playing Kearns regulary wasn't always a no-brainer. Since Larson arrived he always found a way to play him as well. Corky Miller and Luke Hudson got their chance, too. As Bob was with the Royals, he also wasn't afraid to give young and unproven players a chance back then even more as he has the chance to do now.

Ironically, by looking at the lineups and in-game moves, I'd rather doubt that Boone has any comprehension of "how it is".

That's your opinion. I believe that a man with a Psychology degree from Stanford and a 19 years of ML playing experience behind him knows what he is doing. Somehow the Reds front office seems to think the same as they renewed his contract.


To make it short; I still think that Boone overall does a good job, despite his share of mistakes. And I still believe that most fans who want to see Boone fired forget that very likely no other manager could do a better job with this team, because the weak points are the players and not that much the manager.

SteelSD
09-01-2002, 09:14 PM
Yes, these are good numbers for a 24th or 25th player on the roster. I don't expect more from a reserve outfielder, especially if he is not a veteran and plays for not much more than the minimum salary. From my knowledge there are few other 4th or 5th outfielders who can hit a homerun or triple at this rate or steal a base.

So we've established that Reggie Taylor's OPS (.763) is adequate for the 24th or 25th player on the roster. Good deal. Unfortunately, Reggie Taylor gets a lot more at-bats than someone who is generally the 24th or 25th player on the roster. You might want to check the stats. There are a NUMBER of 4th or 5th OF in MLB who can put up a .763OPS and get caught stealing 40% of the time.

BTW- Reggie Taylor's OPS is currently higher than Aaron Boone's (.749). That's not an indicator of how good Taylor is. That's an indicator of exactly how bad Aaron Boone's 2002 season has been. I would think that we could expect our starting 3B to put up better numbers than the "24th or 25th" player on the roster.:rolleyes:


No one who hasn't access to the Reds clubhouse will know for sure if Boone is respected or not.

Exactly. So you're speculating that he is. I don't have access to that information so I'm not going to speculate that he's not.


Playing Kearns regulary wasn't always a no-brainer. Since Larson arrived he always found a way to play him as well. Corky Miller and Luke Hudson got their chance, too.

Yes. Playing your future superstar 22-year old outfielder is a no brainer. Miller and Larson (Miller especially) never have had legitimate chances. Miller was putting up tremendous numbers (half of his hits for extra bases) yet continually sat due to Larue's presence. So Larue, who can't hit, starts in front of a guy who can (Miller)- yet now Boone has all but benched Larue in favor of an aging retread??? Miller got no real "chance". He was benched in favor of a guy who's now being publicly dissed by our Manager.


That's your opinion. I believe that a man with a Psychology degree from Stanford and a 19 years of ML playing experience behind him knows what he is doing.

Well, that Psychology degree certainly qualifies Boone to manage a MLB club. What was I thinking? ;)

As for his 19 years of playing experience- history has shown that playing experience does not necessarily translate to success in management.


And I still believe that most fans who want to see Boone fired forget that very likely no other manager could do a better job with this team...

You're kidding. You must be. Our own management did not consider Bob Boone anywhere near the top of the managerial prospect list. Now, this is just simple logic- but that would mean that they felt a number of other canditates would have done a much better job.

Bob Boone is our manager because he was 1) Cheap and 2) Available- not because of his ability level. And he's certainly showing it.

RedDog
09-01-2002, 09:44 PM
Red Thunder,
I mostly agree with your perception of the situation here in Cincy.

I am also the last person to say he is the ultimate and best manager, but I just think that by criticising him over and over again some fans tend to lose out of sight a lot of the problems why the Reds have went from 11 games over to now 4 games under .500.

Lack of quality starting pitching. The same problem which has haunted us for the last six years.

As to another poster:

Our own management did not consider Bob Boone anywhere near the top of the managerial prospect list. Now, this is just simple logic- but that would mean that they felt a number of other canditates would have done a much better job.

First of all, MLB says teams must look at minority hiring thus Randolf and other non-caucasians were interviewed (Sr.) or else get fined like the Tigers did. The smokescreen of offering a low salary to Randolf because the Reds probably did not want him nor did he probably want to enter the FO mess. Sr. knew better. Oester was the first choice, face it, with Boone talking his way into the position. Cheap and available sure but why wouldn't a guy with a 80k job as coach take over this team as manager for 350k.

1990WorldChamps
09-02-2002, 02:43 PM
The Boone supporters seem to be saying "Ok, we know that Boone is not a solid manager, but managers don't win games, players win games." This is really missing the point. The fact is that each part of a team affects whether a team wins or loses ballgames, from the front office (Lindner-ugh) to the last guy on the bench (Castro-ugh). Why not strive for excellence?

The evidence would suggest that the baseball industry does not hold Bob Boone in very high regard as a manager. He was not offered another management job for over 3 years after he was fired in KC. Hell, he was 3rd or 4th on the Reds list when he did get an offer here, and his biggest selling points were that he was 1. Cheap, 2. Cheap, and 3. Very cheap. After his tenure here I would be shocked if he is ever offered another management job at the major league level. If the Reds do not contend next year, he will be out of a job.

PuffyPig
09-02-2002, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD


Other than his power numbers (.472SLG), Taylor's hitting game is well below average.





I'm not sure that it's fair to exclude a player's greatest strength in evaluating his ability. His power is what separates him from most spare OF's. His only real problem is lack of walks. It's the only difference between his season's and Dunn's this year. Same BA, same power. It shows what a 100 walks can do for you.

SteelSD
09-02-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig


I'm not sure that it's fair to exclude a player's greatest strength in evaluating his ability. His power is what separates him from most spare OF's. His only real problem is lack of walks. It's the only difference between his season's and Dunn's this year. Same BA, same power. It shows what a 100 walks can do for you.

I don't think I did discount Taylor's Slugging%. In fact, I gave him credit for it. But Taylor's power is not a rarity among spare ML outfielders:

B Buchanan (SD)- .520 SLG
A Echevarria (CHC)- .493 SLG
J Michaels (PHI)- .511 SLG
T Tarasco (NYM)- .490 SLG
K Garcia (CLE)- .541 SLG
R Thompson (MIL)- .626 SLG
E Perez (STL)- .469 SLG
W Cordero (MON)- .492 SLG
A Hyzdu (PIT)- .515 SLG
J Mabry (OAK)- .576 SLG
O Merced (HOU)- .472 SLG

Now, what you're not going to find is a lot of "spare" OF with more AB than those players- mainly because spare OF generally don't get as many AB as Reggie Taylor (and most on this list don't have as many AB).

What you will find if you check the stats, is that the list of Reggie Taylor-like hitters grows much longer if you expand to include overall OPS instead of just Slugging Percent numbers.

PuffyPig
09-02-2002, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD


I don't think I did discount Taylor's Slugging%. In fact, I gave him credit for it. But Taylor's power is not a rarity among spare ML outfielders:

B Buchanan (SD)- .520 SLG
A Echevarria (CHC)- .493 SLG
J Michaels (PHI)- .511 SLG
T Tarasco (NYM)- .490 SLG
K Garcia (CLE)- .541 SLG
R Thompson (MIL)- .626 SLG
E Perez (STL)- .469 SLG
W Cordero (MON)- .492 SLG
A Hyzdu (PIT)- .515 SLG
J Mabry (OAK)- .576 SLG
O Merced (HOU)- .472 SLG

Now, what you're not going to find is a lot of "spare" OF with more AB than those players- mainly because spare OF generally don't get as many AB as Reggie Taylor (and most on this list don't have as many AB).

What you will find if you check the stats, is that the list of Reggie Taylor-like hitters grows much longer if you expand to include overall OPS instead of just Slugging Percent numbers.

Well finding 10 or so spare OF with similiar or better SL% is nice, but assuming most teams have 3 spare OF"s, that puts Taylor about 10th of about 80 spare OF's. I don't think it's his fault that he has so many AB's, it just makes his accomplishments all the more imoressive. Some on your list have only recently started playing and their stats are based on few AB's. The remarablr thing for Taylor is that he's been able to keep his SL% respectable even with more playing time, even improving upon it. Most spare's stats decrease with more playing time, such as Ochoa and Tucker.

Super_Barry11
09-02-2002, 07:46 PM
I wouldn't criticize someone who has a degree in psychology from Stanford!!! ;)

SteelSD
09-02-2002, 09:58 PM
Well finding 10 or so spare OF with similiar or better SL% is nice, but assuming most teams have 3 spare OF"s, that puts Taylor about 10th of about 80 spare OF's. I don't think it's his fault that he has so many AB's, it just makes his accomplishments all the more imoressive.

Now that's funny. You chide me for "excluding" SLG% when evaluation Taylor's prowess as a hitter- yet now you're looking to only his SLG% as an indication that his "accomplishments" are "impressive". If you'd take the time to look up the stats, check overall "spare OF" OPS numbers. Reggie Taylor's are litterally a dime a dozen.


Some on your list have only recently started playing and their stats are based on few AB's.

Even disregarding sample size, if Reggie Taylor put up his current stats over a full season of at-bats, his overall OPS would be pedestrian at best.


The remarablr thing for Taylor is that he's been able to keep his SL% respectable even with more playing time, even improving upon it

No, the "remarkable" thing is that he still hasn't learned what a walk is. It is not unusual for a non-selective hitter who swings for the fences to put up good SLG% numbers.

Of course, Taylor's game should be speed. But he's not selective enough at the plate, or adept enough on the bases to take advantage of it. I actually give Taylor less credit because he should be looking to play to his strengths.


Most spare's stats decrease with more playing time, such as Ochoa and Tucker.

If a spare's stats decline with playing time, it generally occurs for one of two reasons:

1) As a "spare" OF, that player is usually hitting with favorable matchups (i.e. RH hitter vs. LHP). When he becomes a starter, that advantage disappears. Taylor's had 26AB versus LHP this season and has put up stats of .151BA/.151OBP/.231OBP.

2) The player is not very good in the first place- or he wouldn't be in a reserve role.

You're not really going out on much of a limb by saying "If a player sucks, he'll show it with more opportunity to suck."

The simple fact is that larger sample sizes tend to bring more consistency (and therefore validity) to statistical performance indicators. If a player's numbers decrease significantly over the long-haul, it demonstrates that he wasn't that good to begin with. What we're seeing with more AB from Taylor is that he's actually less likely to ever learn the selectivity that would make him a solid ML performer.

The more Taylor plays, the more ammo he gives to those who feel that he's simply an interchangeable spare part with little value. I'm very happy to see that your logic shows that we agree on this:)

PuffyPig
09-02-2002, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD


The more Taylor plays, the more ammo he gives to those who feel that he's simply an interchangeable spare part with little value. I'm very happy to see that your logic shows that we agree on this:)

Is Taylor replacable? Of course he is. Can you likely get someone better who's cheaper. Prabably not. I stand by my statement that I've made all season that Taylor has been one of the better 24th-25th men on any team. He has speed, defence and power and makes the minimun. He's been one of our better clutch players this season. What more do you want for a spare part? He's not an all star, but why should he be? He's given us everything and more than what we had any right to expect. Taylor for Mercado. Another Bowden steal. He has some value, to be sure. There are players who make $1-2M per year doing what he does. He does it for peanuts. And Guillen is the RH equivilent of Taylor. I'm amazed that the best thing some people have to do is complain about Taylor. If every player on the Reds exceeded their expectations to the degree that Taylor did, we'd have the WS in the bag. Nobody gave him a rat's chance to exceed. Maybe that's why everybody is pissed that he proved them wrong; that's he belongs in the ML.

SteelSD
09-03-2002, 01:04 AM
It's funny, Puffy- because I also do see a half-full glass when I look at Taylor. I don't think that he's the worst player in the majors. I think that he has the ability to be an asset to the team, especially as cheap as he is. And if he can learn a bit more selectivity and understand how to make his speed count- he'll be a steal even at the $1M price tag you mention.

That being said, my Reggie Taylor glass is half full of tap water- not Perrier.;)

RedHotNumber17
09-03-2002, 04:35 AM
"Aaron's bimbo may refuse to marry him if his dad is not a manager."

LMAO!!!! You are so right, JohnnyVan Der Meer :)

Fire Papa Boone LOL J/K

GAC
09-03-2002, 06:18 AM
Personally, I don't think Lou Pinella or Joe Torre could have done much better with this team (we'd probably be bashing them right now! ;) ).

Boone's record at KC is not evidence that he is a bad manager. C'mon! We're talking the KANSAS CITY ROYALS here! This organization has been in shambles & disarray for years and years from top to bottom! Talk about having very little talent! They'd have fired Dusty Baker by now too!

Casey Stengel once said that being a manager was the easiest job in the world when you have a talented team. All he had to do was make out the lineup card everyday ;) .

I have always been a "fence rider"when it comes to Bob Boone. There are times when his "game time" decisons have me wondering & shaking my head.

As one other poster on here has stated (and one of my favorite posters too ;) ), Bob Boone is a "match-up" guy, a statistician, and a thinking manager, who is very involved in the game. He's looking at every angle, and trying to gain an advantage. That can be a positive; but it can also work to your disadvantage (which is where he gets the label "micro-manager").

I'm one who believes in a "set lineup" as much as possible. But this team... due to injuries, and also, just having too many "holes to fill" (position/talent-wise), prevents that from happening.

We don't have a "lead-off" guy. So we fault Bob for experimenting and trying to fill that need with the talent we have?

Our star CFer, and main RBI/HR producer has been basically gone. What is Bob Boone suppose to do then when he has to play a Taylor, or call up someone from AAA like a Mateo?

I've come to the conclusion that Bob Boone is nothing more than a "puppet" whose strings are being pulled more by upper management than anything else when it comes to certain players playing, who gets called up, etc...

I love Barry Larkin, and with exception of his offensive, he has done a good job at SS this year. But many want him gone, retired, or whatever. If Boone tried to do do that, or if any of us had the opportunity to do so, do you think upper management (i.e. Allen/Bowden) would allow us to make that decision? Don't think so :D .

IMO, I think Bob does not possess leadership & motivational skills that are needed. His personality reminds me alot of former OSU coach John Cooper, who cous scout and evaluate talent, but couldn't motivate them to win (he was also a terrible disciplinarian).

I won't fault Bob Boone for the shoddy/poor play that I've seen out of this team this year. Why do I sat that? because He's playing the people given to him by upper management, and you cn only "squeeze so much juice out of that lemon". He can't hit, field, pitch, and execute for these guys.

I fully understand that many on here hate Bob Boone. So lets say you get your wish and he is fired. Who is his replacement? And do you actually think that that next guy is going to do much better with this group? I don't! Not until they address some of the "holes" that need to be filled on this team. Guys like Torre, Pinella, and Baker, win because of that talent assembled on the field.

Finally..."the true quality of a manager is how far they can throw the 1B bag into the OF!" :lol:

Red Thunder
09-03-2002, 10:57 AM
Exactly my sentiments, GAC. Great post.

PuffyPig
09-03-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by SteelSD
It's funny, Puffy- because I also do see a half-full glass when I look at Taylor. I don't think that he's the worst player in the majors. I think that he has the ability to be an asset to the team, especially as cheap as he is. And if he can learn a bit more selectivity and understand how to make his speed count- he'll be a steal even at the $1M price tag you mention.

That being said, my Reggie Taylor glass is half full of tap water- not Perrier.;)

Finally, we agree. But if taylor can even learn to walk 40 -50 times a year, you basically have Juan Encanacion.

syncope
09-03-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig


Finally, we agree. But if taylor can even learn to walk 40 -50 times a year, you basically have Juan Encanacion.

And if he can learn to hit 70 HR, you basically have Barry Bonds.

What a steal by Jim Bowden!

EricDavis
09-03-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by NDRed
I apologize but I read the Enquirer, Post, and this board just about everyday and I cannot remmeber any such reference. Anybody else? You would think our current manager dissing the greatest player in Reds history would be memorable??????

I remembered the story too. He was not dissing Pete, just telling is as he saw it. Here is the comment and the link...


“Look at the Miracle Mets of '69,” Boone said. “They were the Miracle Mets because they could pitch.”

He pointed to another club — one he was part of — as an example: the 1980 World Series champion Philadelphia Phillies.

“We got Pete Rose in '79 and won it in '80,” Boone said. “People said Pete was the leader. Who did he lead? He sat at his locker shaving his bat and talking to (Mike Schmidt). He helped Schmitty tremendously. But Pete was the most selfish player ever. All he wanted was to get a hit.

“You need guys like that. Because when they get the big hit, it helps you.”

One of the major charges Reese and Young leveled was that there were two sets of rules. That is not uncommon in sports.


http://reds.enquirer.com/2002/03/03/red_dont_worry_were.html

Red Ball Express
09-03-2002, 06:58 PM
Eric the Red comes through once more.

Thanks for providing the link that I was admittedly too lazy to hunt down.

Whether we agree or not that Boone was dissing Rose, I interpreted it as a slap at Pete because it sounds like Boone is saying that the team benefits from Rose playing for himself, which - in my mind he never did - rather than giving Rose credit for putting the team ahead of his own stats . To me, Boones "compliment" was mealy-mouthed and smacked of sour grapes.

The Phillies won after Rose got there because Pete was a Winner. End of story.

Greenhills Pioneer
09-03-2002, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by PuffyPig


Finally, we agree. But if taylor can even learn to walk 40 -50 times a year, you basically have Juan Encanacion.

You have got to be joking. This is absurd. Reggie Taylor does not have Juan Encarnacion power. JuanE can hit home runs to any part of the park. Reggie Taylor has to pull the ball to hit it out. Reggie Taylor's track record indicates that he is not really a power hitter. He is a singles hitter who swings for the fences. That approach will only work so well. His approach does not match his abilities in my opinion. If he used the whole field and hit the ball on the ground more, he could be Kenny Lofton. Unfortunately, the more moderate success he has, the more difficult it will become to convince him to adapt an approach that will make him the player that he should be. If Taylor can even learn to walk 40 or 50 times a season, he will be Marquis Grissom, not JuanE. Not completely horrible or useless, but not good enough to take playing time from someone like Mateo. You could argue that Mateo's floor is higher than Taylor's ceiling.

Anyway, Mateo is already as good as Encarnacion and he doesn't have to improve one bit. He has more power potential and a stronger arm though but a little bit less speed.

Red Thunder
09-03-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Greenhills Pioneer
You have got to be joking. This is absurd. Reggie Taylor does not have Juan Encarnacion power.

By just quoting this years stats, Taylor hits 'em out nearly as good as Encarnacion.

Encarnacion: 21 Homeruns in 481 at bats (= 22 HR in 500 AB)

Taylor: 8 Homeruns in 200 at bat (= 20 HR in 500 AB)

REDJAKE
09-03-2002, 09:00 PM
RED THUNDER of course we have many other problems but that still does not make Boone a good mgr so write on and on but the guy will never be a good mgr.He will continue to make a living in the game but will not be succesful from the dugout.You seem to forget that we are all fans and want him to be succesful and that is what is so frustrating HE STINKS!GO CINCY!!!!!

RedsBaron
09-03-2002, 09:35 PM
RedSchmo began this thread with the best idea I've read in some time for a Reds manager. The Reds have only had four top flight managers in the last 40 years: Hutch, Sparky, Lou and Dave Johnson. Most of the rest have been mediocre at best, terrible at worst, so my expectations for Boone's replacement are not high. I kinda like his idea of Jennifer Love Hewitt as manager-it might increase ticket sales so Lindner and Allen will let Bowden acquire some pitching, and her presence should keep the players alert. Hewitt or Bob Boone? Why not love?;)

Greenhills Pioneer
09-03-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by Red Thunder


By just quoting this years stats, Taylor hits 'em out nearly as good as Encarnacion.

Encarnacion: 21 Homeruns in 481 at bats (= 22 HR in 500 AB)

Taylor: 8 Homeruns in 200 at bat (= 20 HR in 500 AB)

Well, looking at Taylor's track record and watching him play, it is obvious that JuanE has more power. Taylor is at the peak of his power potential; JuanE has still not reached the peak of his power potential. Taylor does not impress me much powerwise. If he adapted an approach similar to Encarnacion(which is still a swing for the fences type approach, but using the whole field), his SLG would be much lower in my opinion. Taylor hates singles almost as much as he hates walks. Taylor has allstar talent, but he also has a little league approach.

Greenhills Pioneer
09-03-2002, 10:29 PM
I actually think that the Reds would have a better record with Torre and Piniella. They are the best two managers in baseball; no one else is even close. The Yankees and Mariners have such disciplined hitting lineups. They have more good at bats than any other teams in baseball. I am sure a lot of that has to do with the players, but in those lineups, just about everyone has a decent approach at the plate. Piniella told Bret Boone to stop pulling every pitch or he was going to be on the bench. As a result, Bret Boone is now one of the best opposite field HR hitters in baseball. OTOH, Aaron Boone flat out refused to hit the ball the other way for half the season and was rewarded for it with more playing time and the best job security possible. Is it just a coincidence that the Boone brothers are 2 of the least fundementally sound hitters around? Even Soriano uses the whole field.

GAC
09-04-2002, 06:38 AM
I have to admit that one of my biggest gripes with this team is it's lack (or embarassment) of sound fundamentals of the game. I believe this coaching staff emphasizes them, but it's the "execution" by the players, or lack thereof, that tee's me off.

In last night's game, when we are down 2-1 in the 8th... we have bases loaded with no outs, and they send Castro up (who is said to be one of our best bunters, regardless of his B/A), and he pops up to the catcher. The next 2 guys K looking. They showed Bob Boone in the dugout (and the guy was not happy!).

I think Bob (and Ray) make alot of good calls in the right situations, but it's the players lack of execution that is killing us!

Now some would say that is Bob Boone's fault! Is it? These players make it to the pros being brought up in Little League, high school, college, and in the minors, having the fundamentals drilled into their heads. YOU DON'T TEACH IT TO THEM ONCE THEY REACH THE MAJORS!

I watched the Little league WS, and it was great watching these kids play a fundamentally sound game.

But somehow that gets lost in the majors. Maybe it's because it doesn't make for good ESPN highlights, or give you "name recognition' like a Bonds or Sosa (and the big paychecks).

IMHO, the best fundamentally sound team in the majors this year (and the main reason they are going to the post-seson) is the Twins! No big name superstars...just fundamentally team ball!

remdog
09-04-2002, 06:49 AM
Agree with you wholeheartedly there GAC! Lay down a bunt, hit to the right side, hit the cutoff man....these are things that you're supposed to know by the time you get to the bigs!

Maybe because players don't get the fundamental coaching early on, maybe because they are rushed through the minors, maybe because (as you mentioned) it isn't glamorous, a lot of guys that wear big league unis don't seem to know how to do these things! And, if your stratagey relies on someone being able to do the basics but they don't, you're in trouble. And, trying to teach someone to do these things when they are in the majors but didn't learn them in 15 years of baseball at other levels is a very big uphill climb.

Rem

GAC
09-04-2002, 08:53 AM
YEAH!... How are these players, when their careers are over, going to be able to set up those baseball training camps where they teach the youth the fundamentals...when they have forgotten them? :roll:

Maybe they could offer lessons on...

How to develop a "sweet swing" while striking out (in case ESPN is filming)

How to have proper eye coordination while eyeing the ball into the catcher's mitt (and on the return throw)

Laguage skills 101 on how to argue called third strikes.

The proper way to do the "DP trot"

How to shield your eyes and blame it on the sun when the ball is hit over your head.

How to develop your own "step out out of the box" routine between every pitch.

How to dive for routine fly balls hit to the OF, or, "Hotdogging 101" (class instructor- Jim Edmonds)

How to give a good "Star of the Game" post game interview

RFS62
09-04-2002, 09:39 AM
For all those who immediately started screaming and wailing last night when Castro went in for Walker, here's an excerpt from today's Enquirer....


With Todd Walker due up, Reds manager Bob Boone sent up pinch-hitter Juan Castro. The fact that Castro is hitting .183 and Walker .285 was negated because Walker has struggled bunting, although he does have five sacrifices to Castro's one.

“We decided last week if we ever got that situation again, we were sending Castro up there,” Boone said, referring to Walker's failure to get a bunt down against Houston's Roy Oswalt on Aug.17.

Walker might get another try someday because Castro popped up a bunt on the first pitch from Steve Kline.

“He threw me a slider,” Castro said. “But no excuses. You got to get a bunt down there.”


Second guessing is fine, but there are ALWAYS reasons behind a managers moves that may or may not be apparent. I could hear a collective wail from the Boone bashers from all corners of the globe last night when he sent Castro up there.

What a perfect opportunity to lambast him before, during, and after that sad bunt attempt.

Of course it's his fault that Castro couldn't get the job done. Of course he's an idiot who pulls his lineups out of a hat. Of course all you guys would be a better manager than he is.

Puffy
09-04-2002, 12:21 PM
hey RFS62

I am a little confused - because Boone had a reason that means what?

Hitler had a reason for exterminatinating the Jews. Stalin had a reason for killing 6 million Russians. Charles Manson had a reason for the Helter Skelter murders.

No, I am not saying Boone is evil. What I am saying is that just because someone has a reason for doing something does not make it correct, or even logical. If the beginning premise is flawed than everything that follows is flawed. I believe that what most people, and myself, are saying is that Boone's logic is flawed from the get go and therefore every move he makes from thence forward is thereby flawed

Gee, I'm not real sure I was clear there so let me try and sum it up. Just because Bob Boone has all these Wily E. Coyote motives for his moves does not make them anymore correct than someone who has no reasons for the moves he makes. Starting from an illogical premise and getting to a flawed result from hard work is no different from guessing and ending up at the same flawed result. The end is still a flawed result.

Most people's problems with Boone are the flawed results (or what we believe are flawed results), so the fact that he ALWAYS has reasons does not soften the blow, because he still always starts from a flawed premise

I hope that made sense :)

RFS62
09-04-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Puffy
hey RFS62

I am a little confused - because Boone had a reason that means what?

Hitler had a reason for exterminatinating the Jews. Stalin had a reason for killing 6 million Russians. Charles Manson had a reason for the Helter Skelter murders.





Wow.

I also have a reason for not posting anything about Boone anymore, and up until this thread I had done my best to stick to it. Thanks for reminding me what it was.

It just occured to me reading the game thread that folks might be able to put aside their hatred of Bob Boone and look at as many factors as possible before passing judgement on that particular move.

I understand why many don't, though.

MWM
09-04-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Puffy


Hitler had a reason for exterminatinating the Jews. Stalin had a reason for killing 6 million Russians. Charles Manson had a reason for the Helter Skelter murders.



I realize your comparison was not in comparing Bob Boone with these people or the magnitude of what they did versus your perceived inadequacy of Bob Boone, but I bet if you tried really really hard, you could up with a more appropriate parallel within the context of a simple game.

J-Rod
09-04-2002, 02:18 PM
He has let Joey Hamilton lose 3 games in late innings by brining him in. Joey Hamilton needs to be demoted to Louisville, and not resigned next year. Give the closers job to Reidling and let Hudson set up with Chen and Sullivan the mop up men.

Have Graves try starting.

Whatever happens. Lose Hamilton!

Puffy
09-04-2002, 02:27 PM
oh my god, you people cannot be serious

I made it plain and simple that I was not saying Boone is, was, ever will be in this league. I used extremes, yes extremes, only to make a point

My point was simple, and explained twice - just because a person has a reason for doing something does not make it correct.

As for my choice of characters, I apologize, I was a history major in college and I learned alot about these despicible men, and I was only using to make an extreme point. No where did I compare Bob Boone the man to them. No where did I compare baseball to what they did.

What I did do was try to show that every person has REASONS for doing what they do, but just having reasons does not earn someone a free pass

So let me try this again - my problem with Boone is that he begins from a premise that is not funtamentally (baseball-wise)sound, IMO. Therefore, anywhere he leaps from this beginning premise is flawed

This is only my position and I'm not forcing it on anyone, and I'm not saying Boone is anything more than a bad manager, IMO.

And again, the examples I used were extremes, that is what they teach you to use in writing classes. Those men are horrible, evil morons who ruined the lives of many, many families.

RedsBaron
09-04-2002, 08:19 PM
I still want Jennifer Love Hewitt as manager. Just think of the drama if the Reds played the Texas Rangers, with Love in one dugout and with Rafael Palmeiro taking his favorite endorsed medication in the other. :evilgrin:

GAC
09-05-2002, 06:45 AM
I'd like to see Jennifer as manager too! The only problem is when she has to go to the mound and jerk a pitcher, or tries to send in a PHer late in the game and tells him to grab his bat (that could pose a huge communication problem :evilgrin: ).

RFS62
09-05-2002, 08:15 AM
Using Jennifer as a manager would be a tremendous waste of talent.

I see her as trainer and strength coach. I'll bet nobody would ever, ever miss pre-game stretching again with her running the show!!

On the other hand, I can also forsee all 25 guys lined up at once outside the trainers room for treatment on their new found groin injuries!!!


:eek: :evilgrin:

RANDY IN INDY
09-05-2002, 08:34 AM
That's a great idea, RFS62! The only time that anyone was interested in calisthentics, when I was at the Reds fantasy camp, was when they brought the Hooters girls in to lead them one morning. :evilgrin: Everyone was at attention that morning.:evilgrin:

As far as Boone, and his moves, he had Castro up there to bunt because the percentages showed that he had a better chance to get it down than did Walker. If he had left Walker in, and he had failed, the second guessers here at Redszone would have been jumping up and down because he didn't put someone in that could get a bunt down. I get sick of it. Boone doesn't always make the right moves, but he doesn't always make the wrong ones. Players at this level should be able to execute the fundamentals of baseball. Plain and simple. The good teams do. It is as much mental as it is physical.

I'm not the biggest fan of Bob Boone, and I'm not sure that he is the man to take this team to the next level, but he is far from the worst manager that we could have. We're not that far removed from Jack McKeon, who I thought was a great character and person, but far removed from being a quality manager. Good players that execute the fundamentals make good managers. I guess when that doesn't happen, the manager gets the blame. Always been that way, and always will, I guess. Too much credit when winning and too much blame when losing.

Chip R
09-05-2002, 08:45 AM
Originally posted by RFS62
Using Jennifer as a manager would be a tremendous waste of talent.

I see her as trainer and strength coach. I'll bet nobody would ever, ever miss pre-game stretching again with her running the show!!


Stretching, hell! What about Jumping Jacks?!:eek:

RedsBaron
09-05-2002, 04:04 PM
November 1, 2002: In a press conference earlier today, Cincinnati Reds general manager Jim Bowden introduced new Reds manager Jennifer Love Hewitt. In her first personnel moves, Hewitt announced that the Reds new hitting coach would be Halle Berry and the Reds new trainer would be Kiana Tom. Hewitt stated that she was sure that Berry's former marriage to David Justice qualified her to be a hitting instructor, as evidenced by the number of Reds players requesting special instruction time from the new coach. Hewitt further noted that Reds player representative Aaron Boone had requested that spring training begin on November 15 so that the new trainer could get the Reds in peak condition.
Bowden expressed optimism that the Reds starting pitchers would complete more games next year, since they would not want to take an early shower before the rest of the team, including the coaching staff, went to the showers.
Bowden also announced that in a cost cutting move, all Reds players will be expected to share a room with another player or coach while on the road; surprisingly, no player protested the loss of private rooms, with an umnamed player saying he was willing to room with the manager or one of the coaches if that would help the team.
In other news, Rafael Palmeiro has requested that the Rangers trade him to the Reds, claiming that he told Kenny Rogers that Cincinnati was the best baseball town in America.
There is also a report that former President Bill Clinton has purchased season tickets at GAB for the 2003 season, although the former president was disappointed to learn his seats would not be in the dugout.

letsgojunior
09-05-2002, 04:24 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You guys are killing me.

RANDY IN INDY
09-05-2002, 05:33 PM
:lol:
:lol:
:lol:
:lol:

gm
09-05-2002, 05:42 PM
Who's responsible for the team's execution of the fundamentals? The manager? The coaching staff? The veteran players? Every player, for his own performance?

I'm not going to tell you what I think, because the ultimate answer is probably "yes" to all of the above. But I will relate an anecdote that Larry Bowa shared, earlier this year. This probably occured in 1980, the same year that Boone said Rose was sitting at his locker, talking only to Schmidt.

Bowa said that he came to the plate with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs (or perhaps it was a runner on 2nd, with no outs) Whatever, Larry hit a medium-deep fly ball to left. When he got back to the dugout, Pete beckoned him over. Bowa was expecting some batting tips (or a "hang with 'em") but instead Rose asked tersely "what the @#$% were you thinking" (or words to that affect) So, in this case, on this contending team, the veteran player was reinforcing the basic fundamentals to the young player--and the "kid" still remembered the lesson, 20-odd years later.

Now...I'm not gonna point fingers, but I will say the 2002 Reds could've used more of this correctional "attitude" when their fundamentals (baserunning, defense, situational hitting, etc) were consistently executed poorly. Maybe the veteran players were deferring to the coaching staff? Maybe the coaches were deferring to the Mgr? Regardless, the "message" wasn't getting through, based on the team's play on the field, from April through August.

GAC
09-05-2002, 07:16 PM
Excellent post gm! And I can tell ya this too... no one ever had to go over and remind players like Rose about playing the fundamentals of the game, cause he used them whenever he stepped out onto that field.

Today's players are a completely different breed altogether, and I think alot of has to do with the huge amounts of money they are paid. It has not only affected the attitude of today's players, but also altered the way that management deals with them.

If you're a manager who comes down on a ballplayer, or is not afraid to get in a player's face, you're soon given a "label". And when it comes down to it... the manager will most of the time be the odd man out, while the player is coddled. Its alot easier to replace the manager (they don't have a union ;) ).

RANDY IN INDY
09-05-2002, 07:32 PM
Not long ago, someone posted a story about Joe Morgan relating how veteran players of his era "passed down" to the younger players, the way the game was supposed to be played. It was not uncommon in that era for veterans to pull younger players aside and firmly explain to them how to be a major leaguer, both on and off the field. That is exactly what is missing in today's game. The "ME" attitude of today's players is sickening. I would think that it would be very hard for a coach, who is making very little in comparison to the player's salaries, to pull someone aside and give them the "what for" about not executing, and even if they do, I would say that a lot of players just blow them off or run to the GM. (Denis Menke and Tim Foli made reference to this several times when I was at Reds baseball heaven. Menke made several references to the clubhouse leader from 1990 that so many of you think is the "clubhouse god" of "clubhouse gods")

Look no further than the USA loss last night in basketball. They had superior talent, but they didn't know anything about playing as a team. They were defeated by pick and rolls, backdoor cuts to the hoop, and a total denial of "self" for "team".

All the Slam Dunks, Dunking with elbows, 4 minute homerun trots, and one handed catches do not win ballgames. These games are still team games. Unfortunately, there are not many team players left.

RedSchmo
09-06-2002, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
I'm not the biggest fan of Bob Boone, and I'm not sure that he is the man to take this team to the next level, but he is far from the worst manager that we could have. We're not that far removed from Jack McKeon, who I thought was a great character and person, but far removed from being a quality manager. Good players that execute the fundamentals make good managers. I guess when that doesn't happen, the manager gets the blame. Always been that way, and always will, I guess. Too much credit when winning and too much blame when losing.

Now, this is the kind of "blind eye" mentality towards Bob Boone that amazes me. Saying Mckeon was far removed for being a quality manager, implying Boone is a better alternative is ridiculous. What evidence do you have that Boone is better than McKeon?

I agree McKeon is not a great manager, and he never won a championship as a manager. But in 1997-1999 he took a team (that won 47.5% of their games for Ray Knight) and proceeded to win 53.1% of his managed games only to see Bob Boone take that team and win 44.2% of his managed games so far. Now you cannot possibly tell me that the team all of a sudden became more talented for 2 1/2 years, only to suddenly lose that talent again immediately. Also, please don't tell me about injuries because those teams McKeon managed were some of the most injury riddled Reds teams.

McKeon a worse option than Boone? No way, I'll take McKeon every time despite his ideosyncrasies.

Under McKeon, the Reds outperformed their skill level. Under Boone, they have underperformed for their talent.

McKeon won 51.2% of his games as a manager in total, not great - but you talk about some poor teams to manage. Bob Boone, yeah he coached the lowely Royals, but he had about a .450 winning percentage coming in to the Reds, and he has about that with the Reds. Isn't that enough evidence that Boone isn't the answer?


Oh, by the way... I knew you fellas would have some fun with the Jennifer Love Hewitt management skills!!!

:eek:

RedSchmo
09-06-2002, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by gm
Who's responsible for the team's execution of the fundamentals? The manager? The coaching staff? The veteran players? Every player, for his own performance?

I'm not going to tell you what I think, because the ultimate answer is probably "yes" to all of the above. But I will relate an anecdote that Larry Bowa shared, earlier this year. This probably occured in 1980, the same year that Boone said Rose was sitting at his locker, talking only to Schmidt.

Bowa said that he came to the plate with a runner on 1st and less than 2 outs (or perhaps it was a runner on 3rd, with no outs) Whatever, Larry hit a medium-deep fly ball to left. When he got back to the dugout, Pete beckoned him over. Bowa was expecting some batting tips (or a "hang with 'em") but instead Rose asked tersely "what the @#$% were you thinking" (or words to that affect) So, in this case, on this contending team, the veteran player was reinforcing the basic fundamentals to the young player--and the "kid" still remembered the lesson, 20-odd years later.

Now...I'm not gonna point fingers, but I will say the 2002 Reds could've used more of this correctional "attitude" when their fundamentals (baserunning, defense, situational hitting, etc) were consistently executed poorly. Maybe the veteran players were deferring to the coaching staff? Maybe the coaches were deferring to the Mgr? Regardless, the "message" wasn't getting through, based on the team's play on the field, from April through August.

GM - very good post, and I agree Leadership is lacking in the Reds right now, from the top to the bottom. I do not believe Bob Boone is the only leadership "gap" this team has. However, if you fill that gap, you may go a long way towards identifying the other leadership holes.

RedsBaron
09-06-2002, 07:17 AM
For almost as long as baseball has been played, older players and fans have been complaining that the current generation of players don't know the fundamentals of the game, don't play hard enough, are only interested in the big money, etc, so I hesitate to join in the above posts because of the possibility we are all engaging in "Old Fogeyism." That said, yes it does bother me to see four minute HR trots, particularly when the ball doesn't actually clear the fence and the hitter winds up with a single when he could have had extra bases had he ran hard from home plate. This lack of hustle is probably one reason there are ralatively few triples in modern major league baseball. I grew up on the baseball of the mid-1960's to mid-1970's. If a hitter showed up a Gibson or Drysdale with a four minute HR trot and bows to the crowd, Gibson or Drysdale would've seen how well the hitter could do from the prone position the next time up. The BRM greatly benefitted from the leadership of Rose, Morgan, Perez, et al, making sure the game was played right. One reason for the Yankees recent dominance has been they have had fundamentally sound players
with leadership skills.
But what can a team do? I like a guy like Chris Stynes, who hustles and plays the game right, but would you really want Stynes rather than Barry Bonds? I hate four minute HR trots, but I like home runs. I agree that the Reds need better leadership, but I don't have a solution to offer......other than of course naming Jennifer Love Hewitt as manager.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 08:51 AM
If you want McKeon back as manager, Redschmo, have at it. I just cannot join in that "blind eye" mentality as you put it. McKeon was not a good manager, and I would not wish his managerial skills on the Los Angeles Dodgers, although I would get a kick out of watching him fall off the dugout bench in Chavez Ravine.

Again, I'm not the biggest fan of Bob Boone, but I'm not sure why he has as many antagonists as he does. Maybe the Reds are not as talented as this board thinks they are and the expectations are too high.(Expectations were pretty low from most of the posters last winter and most of the early spring) The minor league talent that they rolled out for most of last year certainly wasn't a pretty sight. Players certainly have not played up to the talent expectations that has suddently skyrocketed since spring. It's all Boone's fault, I know. I've heard all the arguments, but I watch a lot of baseball, and I see the same type of moves being made by the majority of the managers in the game. When their horses are not just going out and decimating the opposition, they start trying to make things happen. Boone is not much different than the rest. When things work out, they are considered geniuses. When they don't, they're considered bums.

There are only a few "really good" managers in the game right now, and the Reds management is not going to pay the kind of money that it takes to bring one of these proven guys in. They have two choices. Go with a guy like Boone, who is not so different than the rest of what is out there, or go with a young guy that is trying to make his mark.( Or you could bring in Jack McKeon and watch him sit on his hands and sleep at the helm. That sounds like a good option:rolleyes: )

Either way, you are rolling the dice, or of course, "you" can have Jack McKeon again. Personally, I'll pass on that option every time.

bucksfan
09-06-2002, 09:53 AM
Hey, c'mon now Randy - let's get this thread back on track with the Jennifer Love Huge--errrrr...... Hewitt managerial theme! ;)

RedDog
09-06-2002, 10:13 AM
Randy,

How articulate and orignial on your criticism of McKeon?
Or you could bring in Jack McKeon and watch him sit on his hands and sleep at the helm . Beat a dead horse with that routine but face the facts that the 99 team with no where near this talent level exceeded expectations and finished the season 30 games over .500. Redschmo indicated that he was not great, I agree, but his style, although laidback, got results. Minus the veterans (Larkin and Vaughn), McKeon had a great relationship with all the kids and they mostly had career years. Was this by coincidence or just his positive style with the kids was enabling? I would not want McKeon back nor would he ever want to come back but there are a few reasons why this team has not performed well.

b. Lack of leadership from Bowden, and a few veterans.
c. Expectations from some which lead to pressure and failure
d. Pitching is very weak and has been for last 5 years.
e. Individuals vs team concept

On the same subject, who are the "great managers" and what makes them so great. Just remember, Joe Torre was a horrible manager with a sub .500 record prior to managing the Yankees. Do you think he changed or the players were different?

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 10:36 AM
What happened the following year? No matter how you present your case, lI will not agree with any assumption that Jack McKeon is a good manager. (as much as that may surprise red-in-la. I defended him blindly against red's criticism, which I mostly agreed with) A blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and them, and McKeon was a blind squirrel in my opinion.

If a manager has good leadership skills and the ability to communicate with players that respect him, he has the chance to become a great manager. The three ingredients that they all need to be successful are these: Great players, and something that you mentioned. A group that puts team in front of individual acomplishment. The last is a lot of luck.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 10:56 AM
By the way, and not that it really matters, but as I mentioned before, I think McKeon is a great guy and character. I would relish the chance to sit down and listen to him talk baseball and smoke a cigar with him.(One of my passions too!) I am mesmerized by people that have the history in the game that McKeon and those of his generation have. He's probably the type of guy who would just sit down and talk to a nobody. Would be much more my style than trying to sit down and listen to Bob Boone. I just never cared for Jack's managerial style. I'm sure most of the players liked Jack. I know his coaches did, after talking to several of them at Reds baseball heaven. They just amplified what I believe is true these days. It's hard for guys like Jack to motivate todays players, when they are making the money that they do. Would be like me trying to motivate Donald Trump. Managing a baseball team is probably harder today than it has ever been.

RedHotNumber17
09-06-2002, 01:30 PM
To make it short; I still think that Boone overall does a good job, despite his share of mistakes. And I still believe that most fans who want to see Boone fired forget that very likely no other manager could do a better job with this team, because the weak points are the players and not that much the manager.


I agree completely!

I will also be the first to say that Bob Brenly fits into the category of 'micro-manager' too, just like Papa Boone. But...Brenly obviously does something right most of the time, if not at least some of it. Maybe it is all in the way Papa goes about his managing...each manager is different, albeit the same. this does nto keep me from supporting Brenly or Boone.

guernsey
09-06-2002, 01:39 PM
"What happened the following year? "

The Reds won 85 games, a win total not matched in the two years since.

bucksfan
09-06-2002, 01:58 PM
I'll chip in here FWIW.

I am not one to dislike either a player or a manager unless they are a complete a$$ - and yes, there are enough of those nowadays. But I do not consider Bob Boone to be one of them. I rooted for and supported John Cooper at OSU, right up until it was time for him to go. I will do so with Bob too.

That said, though, I have not really enjoyed his style of managing. It just seems like he has done a large number of very questionable things (granted IMO) this year. Then when I hear the explanations, they just don't seem to sit well with me. Just a personal (baseball-personal) thing I guess.

I realize and accept that this is no reason for him to be removed from his position - because I don't like a lot of his moves. But nonetheless, it does affect my enjoyment of the game at times. I will support whoever is at the helm of the Reds as long as they seem to be a decent person (and BB does). But I can hope for someone better to come along.

I thought the Reds would be right at around .500 this year. Hopefully they can make a mini-run and fulfill my prediction. If they continue this trend, though, they will have underachieved IMO. I know staying in the pennant race so deep into the season was over-achieving. I agree with that 100%. BB gets credit for that, but not full credit as it was not a full season. Not to get into our sample size argument here, but part of a season does not a full season make.

We can only carry that "we were in 1st place" argument so far until we must realize that how we finish the season is the true measure here. And right now it is looking like it will be below my expectations. Were my expectations of playing break-even ball too high? Maybe. But I think some things could have been handled better this year.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 02:25 PM
You yearning for McKeon too, guernsey?;)

RedDog
09-06-2002, 03:05 PM
No one is yearning for McKeon. You still have not stated who the great managers are today and why you think they are great and why would one of these want to come to Cincy?

Boone is the manager for atleast one more year.

guernsey
09-06-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
You yearning for McKeon too, guernsey?;)

I guess I yearn for the wins, and in 1999 and 2000 the Reds won, so Jack couldn't have been all bad. I remember the Reds got within 3 games of first in early August that year, too.

No, I don't think Jack could get them to the WS, but he wasn't as awful as some make him out to be. I think Bob Boone is pretty middle-of-the-road, too. I was really hoping the Reds were serious about re-hiring Sweet Lou a couple of years ago, but obviously that was a pipe dream!

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 05:37 PM
Hit a nerve, RedDog?:evilgrin:You don't care much for my comments do you? That's allright.

Personally, I think Joe Torre is a great manager. Players respect him. He communicates to them, whether it's good or bad. He has a tremendous amount of talent, and he has an owner who will go out and keep him in the talent.

Lou Piniella. Good baseball man. Has learned to contol his temper, and is pretty straight up with his players. Has a knack for the game. Has won with lesser talent.

Dusty Baker. Players like and respect him. Proven winning record. Seems to be around the top every season. Seems to manage the ego's well. Keeps the problems inside the clubhouse.

Art Howe. I would have to include him. Blessed with strong pitching and seems to be managing it well. Get's the most out of an offense that doesn't look that impressive on paper. They play the game the way it should be played. Nice team.

On the verge.......

Mike Scioscia. Doing a nice job in Anaheim. Good Dodger background. Runs a pretty good game.

Jim Tracey. Tough job. Mentally tough individual. Needs to prove it over the long haul.

Bob Brenly. A lot of guys could win with that pitching. Jury still out.

Proven winners.......

Bobby Cox. I have never liked him, but he does something right

Tony Larussa. Tireless worker. Micro-manages. Thinks he is smarter than the rest, and he may be. Has won everywhere he has been.

Out of the game but great still.........

Felipe Alou. To do what he did in Montreal with what he had to work with speaks volumes. Great with young players.....a real baseball man.

I don't know why any of these guys would want to come to Cincinnati. Low budget for players, low salary for the manager. Only plus is the new ballpark and the tradition, if that still exists in anyone's mind but the fans of the Reds. The Reds will probably have to take their chances on a young guy looking to make his mark, or fall into some great situation. I think Joe Morgan would make a great manager.....but his gig is too good with ESPN to want to come down out of the booth. His ego is the only thing that could make him want to do it, and return Cincinnati to its glory. Joe would be able to throw that out for centuries on end.

Sorry that I can't include Jack on the list. As I said, I think he was a great guy, but not a great manager.

Now, RedDog, you tell us what makes a great manager, and who you think is great, and why would any of them want to come to Cincinnati. You've asked a lot of questions. Now do some talking.:)

creek14
09-06-2002, 05:47 PM
I liked Jack.

I like Bob.

Some of you on the other hand... :evilgrin:

J/K

Jennifer, I'm just not sure. Gives a whole new meaning to yanking a pitcher early. :smokin:

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 05:47 PM
By the way, I thought Willie Randolph would have been a good fit in Cincinnati, but it sure don't look like that will ever happen.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 05:51 PM
creek,

bucksfan may have been right when he said that the thread needed to get back on track with Jenniffer................a little lighter don't you think.;)

red-in-la needs to get in on this debate.:evilgrin:

creek14
09-06-2002, 05:54 PM
Yeppers Randy. After the past couple of weeks, we could use a little levity.

It's only besboll.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 06:08 PM
If you really love the game, Besboll that is, the levity is all that gets you through the struggles, and yes my friend, we have struggled lately. But all is not lost. There is always tonight's game.........and next year. Besboll been berry berry gooood to me.;)

oregonred
09-06-2002, 07:01 PM
Jennifer Love-Hewitt and Halle Berry on the coaching staff! :thumbup:

Pregame show title (or marketing slogan) for 2003: "GABbing with the girls"

RedsBaron
09-06-2002, 07:21 PM
Debating over whether Bob Boone or Jack McKeon is the better manager is like debating over whether Paul Householder or Duane Walker was the better outfielder-in each case it is not a matter of someone being a bad guy, it is just that the person is mediocre at best at his job and won't bring you a championship.
This season has turned so bad the last few weeks, turning the discussion to having Jennifer Love Hewitt as manager was the first positive thread I've seen in some time. Why doesn't RedsZone offer a Jennifer avatar?:thumbup:

RedDog
09-06-2002, 07:51 PM
I support Bob Boone and with the pitching that he has and oft-injured players, I think he has done a commendable job. McKeon is not in the picture but like Boone, a certain-player type of manager. Lets see:


What makes a great manager: Pitching and timely hitting


Torre: horrible manager before he took over Yankees. Great team, good pitching and he compliments it well.

Pinella: Has he ever won a WS? Won with less talent?

Baker: I think may be the best and with better pitching would win a WS. Never won a WS

Howe: Was on the chopping block last year until the pitching turned around. Great? Was horrible in Houston.

Cox: A winner now in Atlanta but look at the pitching.

Brenly: WS winner with pitching.

Alou: Good

Joe Morgan: Please!

Heck, the Yankees would win with either Jennifer Love-Hewitt and Halle Berry on the coaching staff! Enough of this subject. Boone bashing and support will go on for another year. .

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 07:58 PM
Er..uh...let's see......Piniella took a Reds team that nobody expected to win to a World Series victory against the mighty and heavily favored Oakland A's and Tony Larussa. that would qualify on both counts, I believe.;)

guernsey
09-06-2002, 08:13 PM
"Pinella: Has he ever won a WS?"

In a word, yes.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 09:21 PM
Did he really not know that Piniella won with the Reds in 1990? If he didn't, I don't know why I'm answering his dumb questions.

RedDog
09-06-2002, 09:57 PM
Since you have all the answers, I thought I would ask some questions? thus....
Has he ever won a WS?

and since you answered the dumb questions, well

RedsBaron
09-06-2002, 10:48 PM
We have certainly covered some diverse topics in this thread. With regard to some prior posts regarding modern players not being well versed in baseball fundamentals, it should be noted that modern players are in much better physical condition than were players several decades ago. Prior to free agency, many players worked at other jobs in the off season to make extra money. For example, after going 23-7 with 265 strikeouts in 1963, Jim Maloney worked as a used car salesman in the off season. If a pitcher went 23-7 with 265 K's today, he would be able to afford to buy several car dealerships. Players are now able to spend much of the off season training and no longer report to spring training woefully out of shape. Players also generally eat better and train better during the season. The improved physical condition of players is probably one reason for the increased offensive production in recent years, and this improved conditioning somewhat offsets any decrease in fundamentals.

RedsBaron
09-06-2002, 11:03 PM
March 1, 2003, Florida: Prior to the Reds first spring training game of the year, manager Jennifer Love Hewitt gave a brief pep talk to the team. Recalling the Reds run in first place last season, Hewitt told the squad "I Know What You Did Last Summer." Hewitt then admitted that injuries, coupled with hitting and pitching problems, had turned the Reds into "Heartbreakers" later that season, but, reurning to her upbeat theme, she predicted success in 2003 since "I Still Know What You Did Last Summer." With regard to the 2003 season, Hewitt said I "Can't Hardly Wait" and predicted increased fan support, particularly among "The Suburbans" and other areas outside Cincinnati.
Hewitt announced her starting rotation would be Dessens, Haynes, Dempster, Graves and Estes, calling it her "Party of Five." It'll be the "Time of Your Life." [Thanks to Amazon for help on these titles].
Hewitt commented that she had noticed that some Reds baserunners ignored the third base coach last year. She predicted this would not occur in 2003, as she introduced new coach Jennifer Lopez. However, in the ensuing game, there was an incident in the first inning. With Todd Walker on second and Austin Kearns on first, Adam Dunn hit a long drive in the right-center field gap. Dunn slid into third with a triple, only to discover
that Walker and Kearns were also occupying third base.
The Reds did rally to win the game, with one Reds player saying that Hewitt and the coaching staff caused the team to rise to the occasion.

RANDY IN INDY
09-06-2002, 11:14 PM
RedsBaron,

Those are good points that you made about the conditioning of players now, as opposed to a couple of decades ago. I agree with what you say. With that said, why is it that pitchers cannot go nine innings with any regularity any more? They have a hard time going six or seven for the most part. That really baffles me, and I've yet to hear a "convincing" argument as to why that is. There is the argument about the bullpen specialists, but it seems that most teams are "burning up" their bullpens at an alarming rate. Overworked bullpens are the norm these days. Why can't the starters go longer?

SteelSD
09-07-2002, 01:32 AM
What makes a great manager: Pitching and timely hitting

Now, I thought that was a pretty ridiculous thing to say...

...then I read:

"Pinella: Has he ever won a WS? Won with less talent?"

It's much easier to cut through the chaff when one can qualify the knowlege level of the poster. Thanks for the save on my reading time R.D. I now know to skip right past any posts you make on the topic.


:rolleyes:

RedsBaron
09-07-2002, 07:02 AM
Randy: I've been thinking for some time about the question you raised regarding the inability of today's starting pitchers to pitch complete games. I think part of the reason why there are so few complete games is that pitchers simply never throw enough, either as kids learning the game, or later in the minors with the expectations of pitching a complete game being lowered. I also suspect that another factor may be that pitchers need more pitches to complete a major league game today. I believe that strikeouts per innings are at an all time high, and I expect that walks per inning are also at at least 50 year highs. For example, in 1965 when Koufax had 27 complete games, followed by Marichal with 24 and Gibson and Drysdale with 20 each, no national league hitter walked as much as 100 times, with Joe Morgan leading the league with 97, followed by McCovey and Santo with 88. In today's game several players will walk more than 100 times a season; Bonds had, what, 170+ walks last year and may top 200 this year. More strikeouts and more walks per innings mean more pitches per inning. It is obviously easier to pitch a complete game if it takes you 100 pitches than if it takes you 140 pitches. I also suspect that on average today's starting pitchers may be enjoying longer careers as a result of not being overworked. I know there are always exceptions such as Warren Spahn, who I believe lost a 16 inning complete game to Marichal in 1963, 1-0, even though Spahn was 42 years old, but many of the great pitchers of the 1960's were done by the time they reached their early thirties and certainly didn't enjoy the success past age 35 experienced by Clemens, Schilling, Johnson, Maddux, Glavine, etc.

RANDY IN INDY
09-07-2002, 08:32 AM
I agree with your assesment, RedsBaron. I think that teams like the Reds should be stressing to their starting pitchers that they want them to start going longer in games. The time to do that is at the minor league level. Stretch them out a little longer. Nobody is saying they have to go nine, but on the other end, four or five innings is ridiculous. The Reds burn up their bullpen early in the season, and it comes back and bites them late, every year. An extra inning or two every game by each starter would take a huge load off the pen. I think the key to it all is throwing strikes early in the count. Reds pitchers seem to have a problem doing that.

creek14
09-07-2002, 09:20 AM
For some odd reason, Steel, I would be willing to bet that Red Dog knows oodles about the game. Mega oodles.

RANDY IN INDY
09-07-2002, 09:31 AM
He must be "playin' possum", creek, or "devils advocate".:evilgrin: That Piniella guy did win in 1990 with lesser talent, but he knew that, I'm sure.;)

letsgojunior
09-07-2002, 01:03 PM
CINCINNATI (AP) - In a shocking transaction, Hollywood supercouple Brad Pitt and Jennifer Aniston purchased the Reds from former majority owner Carl Lindner. Pitt immediately confirmed that the coaching staff would consist of Jennifer Love Hewitt as manager, Halle Berry as hitting instructor, and Jennifer Lopez (J-Lo) as third base coach.

Pitt also confirmed that, due to the persistent requests made by relief pitcher Danny Graves, tennis star Anna Kournikova would be the new bullpen coach. "Anna is by far the best choice," said Graves. Pitt also praised Kournikova "Every guy in the bullpen will be ready to go now" enthused Pitt.

Pitt also mentioned that former flame/Thelma & Louise star Geena Davis would be the team's new bench coach. "Everyone saw what people and managerial skills she had in A League of Their Own. She took over the team when Hanks was bombed, and make the incredibly key move of having Madonna lead off and play centerfield" Pitt proclaimed.

In addition, Pitt's wife, Friends star Jennifer Aniston, has already worked at assembling the medical staff for next season. "I have already secured one of the world's top doctors" Aniston happily said, pointing towards pal George Clooney, "George has tremendous TV-doctor experience". Clooney concurred, saying "How many lives have I saved on ER? A hammy strain now and then is nothing compared to gunshot wounds and euthanasia". Aniston said that she has already made an in-house decision for team trainer: Playboy cover girl Laura Cover, wife of Reds' play representative Aaron Boone. Unfortunately, club officials say, Cover's presence in the training room has already caused a few chemistry problems in the clubhouse. "All of a sudden everyone has a groin injury" one club official smirked, "Aaron threw a fit when Adam Dunn went in there and flat out demanded a full physical". The chemistry problems have led to Cover's dismissal as head trainer.

In addition to the coaching improvements made for next year, the team will also be dressing and travelling in style. Each team member will now wear a custom made uniform designed by J-Lo, complete with a bere instead of a cap. "I don't think I've ever looked better", said happy first baseman Sean Casey, who appeared to be wearing eyeshadow. The team will also be wearing some of J-Lo's special cologne. After the team's debut against the Mets with the new cologne, Mets superstar Mike Piazza demanded a trade to the Reds, citing Hewitt's incredible managerial skill as the reason behind his decision.

GAC
09-07-2002, 01:25 PM
Good players and quality talent make for excellent managers! I look down your list above of great managers Randy and I also see teams that have high payrolls and have acquired the talent to put out on that field. That makes it alot easier.

Like I stated before.... any of those guys would be booed, have one heck of a rough time, and maybe fired, if they managed a team like the Reds, KC, or any of the other small to mid market teams.

westofyou
09-07-2002, 01:55 PM
I believe that strikeouts per innings are at an all time high, and I expect that walks per inning are also at at least 50 year highs

RB, I too was pondering this part of the equation and did a little surface scratching to see if this true as well.

1970 1 bb every 9.6 AB - 1 K every 5.9 AB
1980 1 bb every 11 AB - 1 K every 7.1 AB
1990 1 bb every 10.3 AB - 1 K every 5.9 AB
2001 1 bb every 9.7 AB - 1 K every 5.2 AB

In that span the average BB occured every 10.22 AB and a K every 6 AB.

I think that contracts and the fear of ruining an asset plays into the coddling as well.

You're right that pitchers of the 60's often had almost NFL running back careers, short and burning bright.

Koufax retired at 30
Drysdale retired at 32
Malony retired at 31

The amount of pitchers who achieve a complete game is getting smaller at a prodigious rate.

1960-1969 - 598 seasons with 5 complete games - high Marichael 30 -1968

1970-1979 - 610 seasons with 5 complete games - high 30 3 times.

1980-1989 - 437 seasons with 5 complete games - high Langford 28 -1980

1990-1999 - 147 seasons with 5 complete games - high 15 twice

2000 - 2001 13 players high of 9 by David Wells.

RANDY IN INDY
09-07-2002, 04:14 PM
You're probably right, GAC, with the exception of Alou.

SteelSD
09-07-2002, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by creek14
For some odd reason, Steel, I would be willing to bet that Red Dog knows oodles about the game. Mega oodles.

Well, creek, he's surely doing a great job of feigning the reverse then. To say that a manager is only as good as his people is as incorrect when applied to a baseball context as it is when applied to any work environment.

A good manager brings out the best in his people and has the ability to make the right decisions at the right times. A good manager takes responsibility for his team's shortcomings- he doesn't point fingers and chide players in the press. A good manager develops individual players' skills and puts them in the best position to succeed.

As soon as Bob Boone demonstrates the ability to do any of this on a consistent basis, you'll see people back off.

guernsey
09-07-2002, 09:11 PM
Gammons addressed the managerial situation for the upcoming offseason in his new & notes column.

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Looking for a new manager?
No one knows exactly how many managers will be out of jobs come the offseason. Mets owner Fred Wilpon insists that manager Bobby Valentine and GM Steve Phillips are safe and has accepted public responsibility, although there are some who wonder if Wilpon won't exercise his right to change his mind and make at least one change. There has been speculation that Giants GM Brian Sabean and manager Dusty Baker will not co-exist another season in San Fransisco, although owner Peter Magowan believes they will both be back with the club next season.

There have been rumblings that Lou Piniella's unhappiness with ownership's refusal to add any help during the season may lead him to trying to get out of the last year of his deal with the Mariners, which would make a very attractive candidate should the Cubs or Mets be in the market. There also are several people in the Tampa Bay organization that claim that Piniella would love to come home and work for the Devil Rays, and clearly the Rays need him. But GM Chuck LaMar was hesitant to go after Piniella before, which makes one wonder if he'll try to keep Piniella out again.

"There are going to be an extraordinary number of managerial openings," says one AL GM, "but I challenge anyone to put together a list of 10 really good candidates."

If and when there is a change in Texas, John Hart has told fellow general managers that he will need to hire a name, and he has had contact with Buck Showalter. Diamondbacks bench coach Bob Melvin is considered the frontrunner in Milwaukee, but three weeks from the end of the season everything else is pure speculation.

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http://espn.go.com/gammons/s/2002/0907/1428662.html

RedsBaron
09-09-2002, 06:15 AM
westofyou: Thanks for the research. I am surprised to learn that walks per innings are not at a higher level compared to 1970.