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View Full Version : Is there anyway to fix Casey?



icehole3
09-02-2002, 06:11 PM
I know all about his career stats.If you were an angel on Casey's shoulder what advice would you give him to get back on track.I think he needs to go to a lighter bat.His swing is way too slow.Also I would like to see him going the other way with everything like in his first year in Cincy.Theyve got to do something with him surgery,minors,shrink,etc.

malcontent
09-02-2002, 07:00 PM
Uh. No.

All is not lost, however. For only $20-plus million, the Reds have secured for the next three years the services of the best darned cheerleader in the majors.

Did I forget to mention that he's also just the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet? Talk your head right off.

icehole3
09-02-2002, 07:03 PM
seeing how he's going to get his guaranteed money how can he be fixed?There is no lemon law in baseball.

malcontent
09-02-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by icehole3
There is no lemon law in baseball.
Excellent point, icehole. Can I call you that?

No lemon law. Makes me wanna cry, but there's none of that in baseball, either.

RANDY IN INDY
09-02-2002, 08:55 PM
Trade him, ala, Paul O'Neill. That's probably a "sure" fix. He'll probably go on to have a great career somewhere else, and I'm sure there is a Roberto Kelly out there for the taking.;)

RBA
09-02-2002, 09:04 PM
Spay or Neuter?

Maybe that'll stop him from grabbing himself so much in the batter's box?????

red-in-la
09-02-2002, 09:40 PM
Yeah, if you traded him to say....Atlanta, he might just go on to have a career down there like Nick Esasky...now that would sure get somebody fired.

Paul O'Niell is not an excuse to keep every plug who makes the team.

redhead
09-02-2002, 09:45 PM
Nick E..... wow, he was one good looking man. Whatever happened to him? I remember the vertigo thing then he disappeared.

Red Ball Express
09-02-2002, 09:57 PM
Why not just apply the same logic to Casey that sensible posters are touting for Griffey: SHUT HIM DOWN ALREADY!!

The guy has been playing with a bum shoulder since what, May?

Seems pretty obvious to me that the cortisone and guts treatment isn't working.

Sean Casey is a natural .300 hitter when healthy. He will not be healthy again before ST, which is when he would be seeing his next action if it were up to me.

Reds1
09-02-2002, 10:07 PM
Let him get healthy is the best thing you can do. I'd say stay off the weights this off season. Some guys just don't need to bulk up ala Griffey Jr.

ramp101
09-02-2002, 10:08 PM
shut him down for good

it wont matter, where he goes cause he blows

RANDY IN INDY
09-02-2002, 10:14 PM
I find it amazing that some people, who at times I like to believe have a little bit of baseball sense, can characterize a pretty good ballplayer as a "plug".

ramp101
09-02-2002, 10:15 PM
he isnt "pretty good" anymore

he is mediocre at best

malcontent
09-02-2002, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Red Ball Express Sean Casey is a natural .300 hitter when healthy. He will not be healthy again before ST, which is when he would be seeing his next action if it were up to me. [/B]
That makes sense, Red Ball. But the obvious question then becomes is a .300-hitting Casey good enough to occupy 1B on a good MLB team if he can't swat more than 10 big flies or slug 0.400?

ramp101
09-02-2002, 10:45 PM
if he was on a good team like the yanks or someone, a .300avg at 1b would be fine

i dont think any pitcher is afraid of him

Red Ball Express
09-03-2002, 07:36 PM
Malcontent,

I agree that Casey needs to produce better power numbers. But I just think we need to throw this year's stats out the window altogether.

I think a healthy Casey could hit 25 hrs and drive in 100 runs most seasons.

Since he's signed through 2004 and given the axiom that you never trade a player when his value is down, I doubt he's going anywhere so we'll just have to see how the new park treats him next year.

malcontent
09-03-2002, 08:59 PM
Red Ball: Anything's possible. Did you see that interview with the Pittsburgh reporter? The guy aksed Casey how many taters he'd hit if he were a Pi-rat playing at their new ballpark (PNC?).

Casey: Here? Hah. 20. Maybe 25.

Seems he believes he could get back to his career high. But maybe even he doesn't believe he'll ever improve on 1999. And if he doesn't see it, then that is certainly going to end up being his career year.

ramp101
09-03-2002, 09:00 PM
i honestly dont think SC can slug 25hr again...15-18 i would think

malcontent
09-03-2002, 09:26 PM
I agree, ramp. It took him almost 600 AB to hit 25 in 1999. He'll be lucky to ever get that many AB in one year again. Even if he did (get the AB), he'd have to do a 180 on a 3-year trend that's left him a J.T. Snow clone (minus the glove).

Red Ball Express
09-03-2002, 11:12 PM
Malcontent/Ramp,

Logic and recent history suggest you have a better argument than I do, but I really believe that Casey is a winner who will rise to the occasion before being consigned to the scrap heap.

Obviously, we'll not find out anytime soon, but I'm going to maintain my faith in Casey for at least another season.

Raisor
09-04-2002, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Red Ball Express
Malcontent/Ramp,

Logic and recent history suggest you have a better argument than I do, but I really believe that Casey is a winner who will rise to the occasion before being consigned to the scrap heap.

Obviously, we'll not find out anytime soon, but I'm going to maintain my faith in Casey for at least another season.

Unfortunatly, Casey hasn't only lost power since 99, he's not getting on base nearly as much.

In fact, he's been losing ground in nearly every offensive catagory since 99.

OBP
99-399
00-385
01-369
02-338

SLG
99-539
00-517
01-458
02-368

Ab/HR
99-23.8
00-24
01-41
02-69.8

BB
99-61
00-52
01-43
02-43

2B
99-42
00-33
01-40
02-25

and for those of you that like the stat:
Batting Average
99-.332
00-.315
01-.310
02-.265

PSR

ramp101
09-04-2002, 12:25 AM
casey is a winner you say?

then make him manager

he has no power left so he is worthless

red-in-la
09-04-2002, 12:28 AM
Here's an idea to fix Casey, trade him to the Marlins.:thumbup:

ForLoveOfTheGame
09-04-2002, 03:15 AM
It's getting harder and harder to see Casey's upside after 3 down years since his great '99 season, but i still believe in the big lug. Baby kissing aside, he is still a gamer who puts it all on the line, and has come up big in the clutch when healthy. My prediction is that Casey will rebound very nicely after resting/repairing his bum shoulder this offseason to the tune of .315 20hrs 40 2b's and 110rbis hitting in the sixth spot of a potentially formidable offense. Add a healthy Jr and his 40+hr bat, continued improvement from Dunn and Kearns, a full season of the 2nd half Aaron Boone, along with an improved pitching staff, and this team could be considered a division favorite for 2003.

RANDY IN INDY
09-04-2002, 09:13 AM
I have always liked Casey, and I'm hoping he will rebound, but I will say this. The Casey detractors have a strong argument. It's looking more and more to me like Jr. is going to end up at first base, and in my opinion, sooner rather than later.

Raisor
09-04-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by RANDY IN CHAR NC
I have always liked Casey, and I'm hoping he will rebound, but .

Oh I do too. The Reds need the offense that 99 Casey produced.

PSR

ramp101
09-04-2002, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by red-in-la
Here's an idea to fix Casey, trade him to the Marlins.:thumbup: :rolleyes:

15fan
09-04-2002, 04:50 PM
Back to the Esasky reference earlier in this thread...

Nick's bust-out year was with the Red Sox, not Atlanta. He cashed in his monster year with Boston & came to Atlanta, only to come down with vertigo...

red-in-la
09-04-2002, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the clarification 15fan. I suggested the Reds trade Casey to Atlanta, not that the Reds traded Esasky to Atlanta....but I can see how it could be confusing (the way I said it).

I referenced Atanta because of the past Casey to Atlanta rumors and because Nick Esasky was supposed to make the Reds regret giving up on him when he arrived at the "launching pad."

Point is, some traded end up like Paul O'Niell, but MOST trades end up as losers for the other team.

15fan
09-04-2002, 05:48 PM
gotcha, rila.

The only reason I know the difference is that some of the local die-hards still bring up Nick's name from time to time.

(usually, it's along the lines of "*$&%*% Nick Esasky...")

Of course, I never chuckle and mention that Nick was at least a decent player for the Reds... ;)

BuckeyeRedleg
09-04-2002, 06:40 PM
Hey ramp, you can HAVE him. For free.

The problem I have with keeping him 1 more year to see if he turns it around is if that he doesn't turn it around, he will be making more money and will even be harder to dump for that reason and for the fact that everyone will know it's not just a "slump" anymore.

We could have had Millwood. I'm on record for wanting that trade to happen so it's not hindsight with me.

Now, I'll take nothing for him.

OK, if the Pirates think they can "fix" Casey, I'll take Benson.

ramp101
09-04-2002, 07:20 PM
i wouldnt take him if you paid me

TeamBoone
09-04-2002, 10:20 PM
I guess the Reds have come up with the answer to the question.... season ending shoulder surgery.

Larkin Fan
09-04-2002, 10:35 PM
Any word on what specifically they will be doing to the shoulder?

Chip R
09-04-2002, 10:39 PM
Well, LF, this is from Hal so take it with a grain of salt. What Hal said was that Casey was going to get arthroscopic surgery on his shoulder soon so he will be ready for ST.

Larkin Fan
09-04-2002, 11:14 PM
Thanks Chip. Sounds like they're going to go in and clean up the mess in the rotator cuff from the tendinitis. You've gotta love arthroscopic surgery. A few little incisions and a stiff shoulder for a little while and you're back in action in no time.

Anyone want to bet that Kremchek only "assists" on this surgery as usual? :confused:

BuckeyeRedleg
09-05-2002, 12:07 AM
How about I give you Casey AND Castro for free?

malcontent
09-05-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by BuckeyeRedleg
How about I give you Casey AND Castro for free?
Now, Redleg. If ramp is gonna take both of those albatrosses off your hands, you know he's gonna expect you to sweeten the pot a little.

ramp101
09-05-2002, 12:59 AM
fine u take preston,cj and julian tavarez.....and coach torborg

M2
09-05-2002, 01:31 AM
Hey ramp, if the Reds and Fish could pull a Casey and Castro deal for Wilson and Tavarez, I'd be dancing a jig.

I think Jr. and 1B is becoming a real possibility. The guy's legs need to be spared as much as possible. As for Casey, he's at a crossroads. There's no sin in that. Happens to lots of people, not just baseball players. He could keep sliding or he might turn himself into the hitting machine we all imagined he'd become. Odds are against the latter one happening, but I wouldn't rule it out.

The real question is can you trade Sean Casey right now and how much sense does it make to trade him when his value's in the toilet?

I think Casey and a good prospect could net you a pitcher with a contract. Maybe you could get a Hideo Nomo or a Livan Hernandez. Kris Benson's value is also at an all-time low right now. Casey for Benson was always a good idea. I'd revisit it.

15, but you missed Nick's glory year in Boston. Why that guy left Boston (with a park and league that were made for him) is beyond me.

TeamBoone
09-05-2002, 10:51 AM
Doesn't ANYONE think Casey should be given the chance to vindicate himself AFTER receovering from the shoulder surgery?

Perhaps this tear is something that has been silently affecting his performance for some time but only became bad enough to become physically noticable this year.

JaxRed
09-05-2002, 11:45 AM
"Doesn't ANYONE think Casey should be given the chance to vindicate himself AFTER receovering from the shoulder surgery? "

I'm sure there are plenty.


But Casey's problem is that he'll never again be what the Reds need him to be: A bargain.

To survive, the Reds need good young cheap talent. Like Dunn and Kearns. Like Casey was in 1999. But even if Casey rebounds to 1999 numbers, he'll still (in last year of his deal) cost 38 times more than he did 1999.

The best you'll ever do on Casey is break even. Get your money's worth. That's the upside. The downside is that you might end up with the 2001 Casey. 15 homers, 90 RBI's, .310 average. We can't afford to pay that guy 8 million.

If you went to Vegas to make a bet for $100, and they told you if you Win, you get your $100 back, but if you lose you'll lose most of it, you'd never play. That's what Casey is.

TeamBoone
09-05-2002, 01:16 PM
Even "cheap young" talent eventually gets paid what it is worth, especially if that cheap young talent develops into prime talent.

Should the Reds dump each one of them as they "become of age" and warrent more? Is that the way the Reds must always field a team? If yes, they will never be a contender.

JaxRed
09-05-2002, 01:24 PM
No, you don't let them ALL go. They pick and choose and keep a couple like Dunn and Kearns, and let the Pokeys, Dmitri's, Neagle's, etc. go.

In another thread someone estimated that even without adding players our payroll is going to jump to 52 million next year. That's why every year you make tough decisions about who's becoming too pricy versus what they produce.

Casey's become too pricey.

M2
09-05-2002, 03:11 PM
Jax speaks the truth on this one.

The Reds can't pay big contracts at every position. If Sean Casey had taken the Jason Giambi career path (e.g. become a .420 OB, .550 SLG shoo-in), then he might have warranted a long-term investment. Obviously he'd have cost more, but you'd have a player whose name you could ink in the #4 hole and consider the job done for the next five years.

The problem is partially one of position. Smaller market teams need to be smart about where they find their savings. It's a lot easier to find a productive 1B, LF or RF than other positions. If Dunn and Kearns turn into the monsters we expect them to be, that means the Reds in a few years will have to cull some savings out of the IF. Yet Sean Casey is a 1B and he's not an outstanding 1B. Don't get me wrong, he's good. He can help a team win games. But he's not a player you build a team around (and he essentially let us know that during the 2001 season).

Now I didn't mind the Reds signing Casey this year. Reason is because it's a contract other, wealthier teams can afford. It's even a contract that smaller market clubs can handle if they've been good about their budgets.

By my count, the Braves, Expos, Marlins, Pirates, Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox, Devil Rays, Orioles and A's could be in the market for a 1B. That's not to say they'll want Casey or that they'll want to spend Casey money on one, but I imagine all those teams will review that position with most making changes. You might have to trade for someone else's disappointment in the offing, but I'm relatively sure that a market for Sean Casey does exist (heck, there was a taker for Dmitri Young).

The Reds have within their ranks competent (heck, superior) replacements for Casey. They've got to be smart about money. It's getting difficult to argue that Sean Casey is a wise expenditure of the team's money.

JaxRed
09-05-2002, 03:36 PM
M2 and I agree? It's a sign of the apocalypse :eek:

M2
09-05-2002, 03:43 PM
Just make sure to stock up on those canned goods (me, I'm going over to the nearby Army food labs and getting a case of MREs).

Then again, classically speaking, Sean Casey is the one thing you and I have pretty seen eye-to-eye on.

bucksfan
09-05-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by M2
(heck, there was a taker for Dmitri Young).


This one was baffling to me when it happened and is even more so now. Why the Tigers signed Dmitri to such a contract, with Simon there, Munson on the way, and THEN got Pena is beyond me. Throw in Fick and Higginson and you have an early '02 Reds-style 1B/OF glut, less the talent! At least they have the DH position to include as a possible home for those guys. I will never be too down on the Reds after seeing the Tigers "braintrust" in action.

TeamBoone
09-05-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by JaxRed
No, you don't let them ALL go. They pick and choose and keep a couple like Dunn and Kearns, and let the Pokeys, Dmitri's, Neagle's, etc. go.

I don't consider ANY of them "prime talent". Do you? Pokey's the only one who even comes close... defensively, and I think we all know that he was traded because he didn't want to be here.

Boss-Hog
09-05-2002, 08:25 PM
What would you consider Dunn and Kearns? IMO, they are two of the best young hitters in the game.


Originally posted by TeamBoone


I don't consider ANY of them "prime talent". Do you? Pokey's the only one who even comes close... defensively, and I think we all know that he was traded because he didn't want to be here.

TeamBoone
09-06-2002, 12:12 AM
I'm sorry; I wasn't even close to being clear.

I meant the ones the Reds let go (Reese, Young, Neagle)... not Kearns and Dunn!

GAC
09-06-2002, 08:43 AM
The Rockies will let us have Neagle back! They've been trying to dump his 9 Mil/yr salary all year! :D And yet there were those who nailed this management when we refused to resign him. A good move on our part, or we'd be griping about his and Lark's salary! (LOL)

Sean Casey will be given the chance to redeem himself in 2003, and he should be afforded that opportunity. You cannot fault a player for injury.

Besides, Enron stock is alot higher right now than his! ;) So it is a mote point about discussing getting rid of him. I don't think there are any takers at this point. But maybe there wil be if he can rebound next year.

I'm a firm believer that no one can be labelled as "untouchable" if a move can improve a team.

Raisor
09-06-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by GAC

Sean Casey will be given the chance to redeem himself in 2003, and he should be afforded that opportunity. You cannot fault a player for injury.

Well, it depends on the injury, doesn't it? If a player is popping wheelies on a motorcycle *cough*Jeff Kent*cough* and breaks his arm, then you can probably fault him. No one has said exactly HOW Casey hurt his shoulder. Maybe he taught Dunn so well how to hug, that the big guy put a hurtin' on him.



Besides, Enron stock is alot higher right now than his! ;) So it is a mote point about discussing getting rid of him. I don't think there are any takers at this point. But maybe there wil be if he can rebound next year.

.

I actually think that the Braves might deal for him, though it would be for a couple of minor league players. When Julio Franco is your primary 1B, it's time to start looking for alternatives.

Old Red Guard
09-06-2002, 11:32 AM
The Braves are about the only team who'd consider Casey, imo, who would also give us at least a decent prospect but they'd have to be convinced he was truly healthy again. The Reds would probably have to eat part of his contract if his shoulder acted up again and I don't see the Reds doing that. Since the Braves are also holding the line salary wise, I'd expect a trade to be a prospect and some overpriced Atlanta flop to even that out. Either way we'd be no better for the dollars/production argument.

Our best bet may be to hope he comes back healthy and puts up vintage numbers - .320/15-20 hrs. Then, at next year's deadline we get some real interest from the Pirates again, as well as Atlanta and perhaps others. Yes, I'd trade him if we did because I agree with M2 and Jax, Casey's production is unlikely to ever again warrant the dollars he's earning in a small market. Healthy, he'd be a great player for a big market team - decent production, great PR stuff, big but not mega dollars. That would fit nicely where 8 million a year doesn't tie up too much of your payroll potential. NY/NY, LA, Atlanta, Boston, Seattle. Atlanta is the only one of them I see with a need at first base, though.

Casey is a perfect example of the danger of LTCs. Its a guessing game - and Jimbo has guessed wrong in this Case. Junior is already a LTC, and right about now the only guys I'd want on a LTC would be Dunn and Kearns and I'd wait til each completed his third season, at least. Sign the wrong guy to a LTC and you create an untradeable player if he gets hurt or quits producing. The Reds are certainly not the only team with that problem!

malcontent
09-07-2002, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
No one has said exactly HOW Casey hurt his shoulder.
Phil, Casey himself said he hurt it swinging at a pitch, either in April or May (I thought he said ST). So his previously declining production was not due to this particular injury.

Raisor
09-07-2002, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by malcontent

Phil, Casey himself said he hurt it swinging at a pitch, either in April or May (I thought he said ST). So his previously declining production was not due to this particular injury.


Are we sure he didn't do it while kissing babies and glad-handing constituants. :)

PSR

malcontent
09-07-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Raisor
Are we sure he didn't do it while kissing babies and glad-handing constituants. :)
PSR
:lol:
Point well taken. The life of a Mayor can't be the breeze most people seem to think it is.

Maybe Barry B. realized that long ago and has wisely avoided autographing and post-victory hugging-related injury.